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christine121

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Does anyone know how many people who get through the fuill 4 years don't get any residency? I'm not asking about "the best" residencies. I just want to know if there are people who really don't get anything at all.
 

Augustus

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Does anyone know how many people who get through the fuill 4 years don't get any residency? I'm not asking about "the best" residencies. I just want to know if there are people who really don't get anything at all.


Presently, almost all SGU graduates get a residency in the United States (when you take into account match and scramble).

However, its impossible to predict how things will be 4-years from now. The US is trying to lower its dependency on foreign-trained doctors so that could effect the number of Caribbean grads who get residencies in the US.

Make sure you do a lot of research before you decide on the Carib. I've ruled it out because I'm far too concerned about spending $200K on tuition plus housing costs and ending up with a worthless degree.
 

christine121

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This might be a stupid question so for everyone who likes to attack people ...please don't.

I'm coming in as non traditional. My degree is Geophysics w/ Honours, my MCAT score was alright but not great, my science GPA in my last two years was 3.6 which is really really good for my degree. I just graduated and was planning on taking this year off to do ochem (which I don't have and I know I'm nuts to have written the MCAT w/o it) and a few other courses to make me more suitable for med. Then this summer I was going to write my MCAT and apply all over the US even though I'm Canadian. Oh and I have tons of volunteering.

A few things happened and I ended up working for awhile. I only found out recently that I was within the DO range because up in Canada we don't have DOs and I hadn't heard about them. So I'm applying now for that but am late in the game so might not get in. I'm going to be quitting my job, doing the classes and re writting the MCAT this summer.

So I was thinking, if I don't get DO this year and I rock my MCAT I'm sure I can get DO and maybe MD next year. But I could likely start SGU this fall and I think they have the year round program so I could finish about a year and a hlaf earlier there than if I wait.

My question: With all the talk of more US grads and not enough residencies in the next few years would finishing 1.5 years earlier at SGU possibly put me in the same position as finishing later in the US? By then will I already be competing with way more US grads?
 

Augustus

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This might be a stupid question so for everyone who likes to attack people ...please don't.

I'm coming in as non traditional. My degree is Geophysics w/ Honours, my MCAT score was alright but not great, my science GPA in my last two years was 3.6 which is really really good for my degree. I just graduated and was planning on taking this year off to do ochem (which I don't have and I know I'm nuts to have written the MCAT w/o it) and a few other courses to make me more suitable for med. Then this summer I was going to write my MCAT and apply all over the US even though I'm Canadian. Oh and I have tons of volunteering.

A few things happened and I ended up working for awhile. I only found out recently that I was within the DO range because up in Canada we don't have DOs and I hadn't heard about them. So I'm applying now for that but am late in the game so might not get in. I'm going to be quitting my job, doing the classes and re writting the MCAT this summer.

So I was thinking, if I don't get DO this year and I rock my MCAT I'm sure I can get DO and maybe MD next year. But I could likely start SGU this fall and I think they have the year round program so I could finish about a year and a hlaf earlier there than if I wait.

My question: With all the talk of more US grads and not enough residencies in the next few years would finishing 1.5 years earlier at SGU possibly put me in the same position as finishing later in the US? By then will I already be competing with way more US grads?

You cannot go wrong as a US grad MD or DO. You have to realize that 99% of the time a US grad is getting the residency over a Carib grad (unless the Carib grad absolutely DOMINATED their USMLE, which is about 1% of Carib grads, no offense US grads rarely dominate it).

It is probably in your best interest to finish the prereqs for US schools and then think about applying (I'm pretty sure schools like SGU have the same prereqs just don't require as good of grades).

I think if you complete SGU and finish in the top 75% of your class you should be able to get a residency in the US 4-years from now. But if you wait the extra year and a half, you will likely be able to get the residency of your choice in the US, providing that you work very hard in med school.
 

RussianJoo

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as a 4th year SGU student I would say that anywhere from 10 to 15% of SGU grads don't get a residency in the US on their first attempt. And then I would guess that 96% eventually find a residency those 4% includes those SGU students that go back to their home country to do their residency and to work there or go to the UK or Canada. And a small amount after years of trying don't get a residency at all and do something totally different.

The chairman said that 74% of those that go through the match, match into a residency. so 26% don't match and I doubt they all scramble in categorical residencies most will scramble for a prelim position and that's kind of useless. Remeber though that not all US grads end up getting a residency also. I think the match rate for US grads is 97%.
 

Augustus

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as a 4th year SGU student I would say that anywhere from 10 to 15% of SGU grads don't get a residency in the US on their first attempt. And then I would guess that 96% eventually find a residency those 4% includes those SGU students that go back to their home country to do their residency and to work there or go to the UK or Canada. And a small amount after years of trying don't get a residency at all and do something totally different.

The chairman said that 74% of those that go through the match, match into a residency. so 26% don't match and I doubt they all scramble in categorical residencies most will scramble for a prelim position and that's kind of useless. Remeber though that not all US grads end up getting a residency also. I think the match rate for US grads is 97%.

I agree with a lot of what you say. But if you graduate from a US medical school and pass your USMLEs there is no reason whatsoever you shouldn't get a residency in US. You reallly have to be a screw-up to not find placement after match and scramble
 

RussianJoo

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I agree with a lot of what you say. But if you graduate from a US medical school and pass your USMLEs there is no reason whatsoever you shouldn't get a residency in US. You reallly have to be a screw-up to not find placement after match and scramble

I was referring more to the match with that statement, and based on the match results not everyone matches. I guess I should have clarified a bit.
 

Ariee

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Christine,

As a CDN, I completely undertand where u are coming from. Let me tell you one thing, as a CDN you are going to be better prepared b/c of our education system than a US grad coming into the Carib. My class was about 60% CDN and we rocked the boards, about 20 ppl I know had double 99's on their USMLE's.

Don't get me wrong, I think you should apply to US MD/DO as a CDN, I wish I had done this, I would have gotten in...too late, too little.

But let me tell you one thing, as a Carib, you will get a residency seat if:
1. you go to one of the "big 4" schools: SGU, Ross, Saba, AUC
2. do well on your boards; 2 digit > 90
3. take ownership of yourself; join national organizations, lead them, show real humanitarianism

I prematched, only IMG's, DO's and gradated AMG's can do this. I had 3 offers and took one at a really EXCELLENT place and will be starting in July. I'm really satisfied, especially since, I've met some (#3) AMG's on here (SDN) that did not match last year. I am secured a seat already, which is a really GREAT feeling!

The no. of US MD positions are increasing, I see this taking at least 10 yrs to match up with the no of residency positions. There is talk about increasing the no of PCP residency positions 15% as well. http://www.mcclatchydc.com/economy/v-print/story/77025.html

PM me if u need more info. Here to help and will give you unbiased, truthful advice.
 

exPCM

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Christine,


The no. of US MD positions are increasing, I see this taking at least 10 yrs to match up with the no of residency positions. There is talk about increasing the no of PCP residency positions 15% as well. http://www.mcclatchydc.com/economy/v-print/story/77025.html

PM me if u need more info. Here to help and will give you unbiased, truthful advice.

This is not correct. Resident positions are not and will not significantly increase. This issue is well addressed in this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=626389&page=2
Even 1000 redistributed slots is a drop in the bucket since the average length of all residencies is 4 years (some are 3 like IM,FP and some are 5 like GS, others 4 like anesthesiology, dermatology), 1000 spots is only 250 spots per year.
 

Saga1

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The health care bill does not only talk about redistributing 1000 spots, it also talks about the creation of 1000 new community setting spots through THCs and other grants, it's in the bill.
 

exPCM

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exPCM

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This would in effect only add 252 slots (notice how that is mentioned as the number graduating per year above ) per year in the match. --> the 756 slots is divided over 3 years = 252 per year. Even if they increased it to 1000 slots would be only 333 per year. 252 per year or even 333 per year is a pittance when compared to the parabolic increases in MD and DO school enrollments and thus will have little effect even IF passed which is not certain since the Senate has not passed this and it was not in the House bill that passed. I sense a lot of med students operating on some assumption that there will be a major increase in GME slots - it ain't going to happen because of the cost.
There are roughly 108,000 total residency slots. An increase of a 1000 is less than 1%. Med school class sizes and enrollment are jumping by 30% (allopathic) and at leat 50% (osteopathic) over the next few years due to new schools opening and current schools increasing their class sizes. This next match will be a bloodbath in terms of increased number of students who do not match and the bloodbath will only worsen in subsequent years.
 
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dragonfly99

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For the person posting above, I think you would be better served to finish 1.5 years later but at a US school.
 

medicinesux

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This is a brewing disaster for USIMG's. A terrible tragedy that is unfolding right before our eyes with the numbers to prove it. If you can't get a residency in the USA how are you going to ever pay back 300K in student loans??? By working in a public health clinic in Cuba? HA! Unfortunately, I can easily foresee there will be many unemployed med school grads accruing 8% interest onto their principal balances. I can't fathom a more horrible situation to be in. I'd rather be living in a box homeless on the street with zero net worth than get screwed like this. In 10 years time we will be reading about their wretched stories of woe in the Wall Street Journal.
 

Saga1

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This would in effect only add 252 slots (notice how that is mentioned as the number graduating per year above ) per year in the match. --> the 756 slots is divided over 3 years = 252 per year. Even if they increased it to 1000 slots would be only 333 per year. 252 per year or even 333 per year is a pittance when compared to the parabolic increases in MD and DO school enrollments and thus will have little effect even IF passed which is not certain since the Senate has not passed this and it was not in the House bill that passed. I sense a lot of med students operating on some assumption that there will be a major increase in GME slots - it ain't going to happen because of the cost.
There are roughly 108,000 total residency slots. An increase of a 1000 is less than 1%. Med school class sizes and enrollment are jumping by 30% (allopathic) and at leat 50% (osteopathic) over the next few years due to new schools opening and current schools increasing their class sizes. This next match will be a bloodbath in terms of increased number of students who do not match and the bloodbath will only worsen in subsequent years.

First of all I never said these slots will be adequate, I showed you that there will be 1000 or so new slots by 2015. Yes these are not enough and I'm not even sure how many will be PGY-1, probably only 250 or so of the 1000, so it's a very small increase. Secondly the same provisions were also placed in the latest House bill, I can show you from there as well if you would like. Also some states like Texas are going to introduce 300 new slots into their state by 2014 (http://www.rwjf.org/humancapital/digest.jsp?id=23886) and the VA is looking to continue it's expansion. However these increases will still not match the parabolic increases in MD/DO positions.

If you go to this site http://blogs.do-online.org/aoapresident.php?blogid=3&archive=2009-11 it shows you a link to a pdf where the AOA has predicted how many slots (ACGME and AOA) will be available in the next 5 years (based off several models). If you go to page 14 of the PDF file "Impact of admitting MDs" it gives you a good idea on how many IMG slots will be available each year. So for 2009 there were around 4900 slots for IMGs. For the 2015 match there will be around 3200 slots. If we take into account a small increase of GME positions based THCs and other state wide initiatives, we should expect around lets say 4000 positions for IMGs.

So there will be a blood bath indeed, but not as horrible as expected.
 
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exPCM

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First of all I never said these slots will be adequate, you challenged to provide me links, I accepted your challenge and showed you that there will be 1000 or so new slots by 2015. Yes these are not enough and I'm not even sure how many will be PGY-1, probably only 250 or so of the 1000, so it's a very small increase. Secondly the same provisions were also placed in the latest House bill, I can show you from there as well if you would like. Also some states like Texas are going to introduce 300 new slots into their state by 2014 (http://www.rwjf.org/humancapital/digest.jsp?id=23886) and the VA is looking to continue it's expansion. However these increases will still not match the parabolic increases in MD/DO positions.

If you go to this site http://blogs.do-online.org/aoapresident.php?blogid=3&archive=2009-11 it shows you a link to a pdf where the AOA has predicted how many slots (ACGME and AOA) will be available in the next 5 years (based off several models). If you go to page 14 of the PDF file "Impact of admitting MDs" it gives you a good idea on how many IMG slots will be available each year. So for 2009 there were around 4900 slots for IMGs. For the 2015 match there will be around 3200 slots. If we take into account a small increase of GME positions based THCs and other state wide initiatives, we should expect around lets say 4000 positions for IMGs.

So there will be a blood bath indeed, but not as horrible as expected.

I hate to burst your bubble but by 2015 there will be essentially no spots for IMGs.
According to the AMA news, medical schools are markedly increasing their enrollments such that there will 19909 allopathic and 5227 osteopathic students admitted in 2012.
This is a total of 25136 US medical school spots per year.
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/200...3/prsb0623.htm
aamc.jpg

The number of Medicare funded resident spots was capped in 1997 and there are ~24000 first year residency spots.
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2009/11/09/prse1111.htm
P.S. The Texas plan of 300 spots is AT MOST 100 first year slots. The link you provided does not go to a pdf file.
Things are also getting tighter for US grads.
More numbers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Code:
Year Total Filled Unfilled USMG Unmatched
2009 22427 21340 1087 1072
2008 22240 20940 1300 883
2007 21845 20514 1331 1005
2006 21659 20072 1587 949
2005 21454 19760 1694 921
Following the trend, there will be more unmatched USMG's than all available scramble spots next year
Note: 1st year spots in the NRMP have increased somewhat because specialities like urology and neurology used to not be in the NRMP (they had other matches outside the NRMP) but have joined in recent years.
 
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Saga1

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You're not bursting any bubbles I am well aware of the situation. However I will take what the AOA has written as a strong possibility of what the future holds.

The link I provided shows the pdf, you have to scroll down. Go to the last post known as 'Requesting your input on MDs in OGME programs". Read the last 2 sentences of the 2nd paragraph, the link is there. The table is posted in the AACOM report (pg 14). You will see w/o the health reform accomadations there will be 3200 slots for IMGs in 2015. This is barring any health reform led increases in slots and a possible joint match by then(which would open up around 600 post AOA scramble slots as well to IMGs).
 

exPCM

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You're not bursting any bubbles I am well aware of the situation. However I will take what the AOA has written as a strong possibility of what the future holds.

The link I provided shows the pdf, you have to scroll down. Go to the last post known as 'Requesting your input on MDs in OGME programs". Read the last 2 sentences of the 2nd paragraph, the link is there. The table is posted in the AACOM report (pg 14). You will see w/o the health reform accomadations there will be 3200 slots for IMGs in 2015. This is barring any health reform led increases in slots and a possible joint match by then(which would open up around 600 post AOA scramble slots as well to IMGs).

The table is optimistic but backs up what I said. There is not 3200 slots for IMGs in 2015 per that AOA pdf.
Using their numbers of 5200 DO grads (this is low - we are already at 5100 and there are new DO schools opening in Spartanburg and Seton Hill which will bring the total way beyond 5200) and 19000 US MD grads (this is low it will actually be closer to 20000) gives a total of 24200 grads.
About 75% of DO grads go into allopathic residencies eventually - look at the graph with the red and blue lines - it is accurate - Note: Some of the DOs do perform a one year DO internship prior to residency (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_medicine_in_the_United_States since there are no DO programs in a number of fields like pathology and very few DO programs in many other fields like dermatology. So even if we took a low number of 3000 (less than 60% of DO grads) and a low number of 19000 (US MDs) that would give 22000 US grads in the NRMP. In their optimistic world we will be up to 24800 first year slots giving 24800-2200 = 2800 other openings. However if US grads are closer to 20000 (likely per projections) then this goes down to 1800 openings . If DOs continue to go into ACGME residencies at a 75% rate then you have 3900 DOs which brings this down to 900 slots. If you don't have this projected growth in funding the AOA cites (very likely) then that 900 goes down to zero. So I would say that if anything your reference actually supports what I have posted.
 
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coat0023

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Let me tell you one thing, as a CDN you are going to be better prepared b/c of our education system than a US grad coming into the Carib.

I do not mean to flame in the slightest here but I am wondering what this means exactly. I don't really believe that Canadian universities are better than American ones. I could be wrong though and I would love to see some actual hard data to enforce this thought.
 

Taurus

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exPCM is correct. US MD and DO class sizes are expanding and it is unlikely that the health reform bills will substantially increase the number of residency slots. This a double-edge sword. Expanding classes mean that more people will be able to get into a US MD or DO school and not have to go offshore. The downside is that if you do go offshore you will have a very hard time matching in the next few years. Many Carib schools will close. Based on the political tealeaves in Washington, DC, I wouldn't bet on more residency spots and I wouldn't go offshore now.
 

icalz

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I do not mean to flame in the slightest here but I am wondering what this means exactly. I don't really believe that Canadian universities are better than American ones. I could be wrong though and I would love to see some actual hard data to enforce this thought.

I don't think this can be directly measured. I would go as far to say that many Canadian universities are better than some American ones, and that many American universities are better than some Canadian ones.
 

coat0023

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I don't think this can be directly measured. I would go as far to say that many Canadian universities are better than some American ones, and that many American universities are better than some Canadian ones.

Well yes, I would say this is exactly the situation. That is why I was confused as to the previous poster's comment that I quoted.
 
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drctother

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Im sorry but other than most of the top US schools (Cali, Harvard, MIT, etc) US universities do not compare to the education you receive at a Canadian university. Most of my best friends have gone on exchange to various US schools (berkley, harvard, UofW) and they all performed exceptionally better in their classes while on exchange. These are science classes I am referring to.

I know many of you will disagree, however I doubt if you have attended a top Canadian school and can actually compare you would.

Also, do you guys realize how much harder it is for Canadians to get into a Canadian med school than Americans to get into a US school? THere is a HUGE difference. Look at the stats. As in province students (same as in state), you cant get in without a 4.0. Guaranteed . Yet many of the US med schools, for in state students, accept students with grades as low as 3.4

I am truely jealous. Not to mention we get to apply to like 10 med schools, you guys have how many in the states??

Anyways I apologize for rambling but I heard people dissing Canadians on these forums so I thought i would comment
 

nuclearembargo

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Guys...chill...derz isnt gonna be any bloodbath.....ofc it wud be a bit tougher....so i did a mini study accrodin to the match trends ,stats , etc of NRMP at its database given on its site for 2009 match....so here it goes....correct me if i m anywhere wrong...but the data is official frm NRMP , AAMC , AACOM .....!!!

so first of all....i hv the first yr. enrollment( allopathic) list for past 5 yrs n the cumin yrs as projected.....

05- 17,003
06- 17,361
07- 17,759
08- 18,036
09- 18,393
10- 18,998
11- 19,327
12- 19747
13- 19,946

First yr. enrollment for Osteopathic...
05- 3908
06- 4055
07- 4528
08- 4950
09- 5100
10- 5227
11- 5227
12- 5227 ( dis projection is confirmed by many org. )

So accordin to NRMP 2009 match :

First year positions offered - 22,427

US MDs: Graduated - 17,003 ( refer 1st yr enrollment in 2005 for allopathic )
Active Applic- 15,638 ( 91.9 % of the above mentioned graduates )
Matched - 14,566 ( 93.1 % of active applicants )

Us DOs: Graduated - 3,908 ( refer 1styr enrollment in 2005 for osteopathic )
Active Appic - 2,015 ( 50 % of the graduates )
Matched - 1,408 ( 69.9 % of active applicants )

Postions available for others = 22,427 - ( 14566 + 1408 )
= 6453 out of which 1)Unfilled - 1087
2)IMGs - 3112 ( 48.2 % )
3)US IMG - 1619 ( 25 % )
Total IMGs - 4731
4)5th path- 65
5)Canad - 25
6) Previous US grads - 545

NOW MY PROJECTIONS FOR 2013 and 2014 match.....
If we consider the article of IMPACT ON ADMITTING MDs n the projected positions as follows

2011 - 23191
Calc for 2012 - 23586
2013 - 23981
Calc for 2014 - 24390
2015 - 24800

2013 MATCH

Total first year postions - 23, 981

US MDs - Graduates - 18,393 ( Refer to 1st yr. enrollment in 2009 for allopathic )
Active Applic- 16,922 (if 91.9 % of graduates applied same as 2009 match)
Macthed - 15,755 ( if 93.1 % match rate remains constant as 2009 )

US DOs- Graduates- 5100 ( Refer 1st yr. enrollment in 2009 for osteopathic )
Ative Applic- 2550 ( If 50 % graduates applied sm as 2009 match )
Matched- 1782 ( if 69.9 % mtch rate remains constant as 2009 )

Now postions left for others = 23,981 - ( 15755 + 1782 )
= 6443 out of which 1) IMGs - 48.2 % = 3105
2) US IMGs - 25 % = 1610
Total IMGs = 4715 ( PROVIDED 1088 seats go unfilled as in 2009 n accordin to me less number of seats wud go unfilled because of the redistribution ( Health reform bill ) n due to which totals IMGs wud be a little more than 4715 )


So according to me Total IMGs in 2009 were 4731 n in 2013 wud be 4715 ( maybe more due to redistribuion of unfilled slots mentioned above in red )

And by calculating in a similar way in 2014 mactch Total IMGs wud be 4617 ( maybe more due to redistibution of slots mentioned above in red )

I DONT SEE A BLOODBATH.....lolzzzz.....correct me if i m wrong.....Gud Luck , study hard n dun wrry abt the things which r not under your control.....!!

N if there is still a bloodbath we hv PREMATCHs tht r around 2700 every yr for IMG , we hv 2000 slots being pushed in Senate , we hv TEXAS addin sm slots , we hv Veteran expandin , we hv THC slots ....dun wrry guys ...just study hard...!!
 
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exPCM

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Guys...chill...derz isnt gonna be any bloodbath.....ofc it wud be a bit tougher....so i did a mini study accrodin to the match trends ,stats , etc of NRMP at its database given on its site for 2009 match....so here it goes....correct me if i m anywhere wrong...but the data is official frm NRMP , AAMC , AACOM .....!!!

so first of all....i hv the first yr. enrollment( allopathic) list for past 5 yrs n the cumin yrs as projected.....

05- 17,003
06- 17,361
07- 17,759
08- 18,036
09- 18,393
10- 18,998
11- 19,327
12- 19747
13- 19,946

First yr. enrollment for Osteopathic...
05- 3908
06- 4055
07- 4528
08- 4950
09- 5100
10- 5227
11- 5227
12- 5227 ( dis projection is confirmed by many org. )

So accordin to NRMP 2009 match :

First year positions offered - 22,427

US MDs: Graduated - 17,003 ( refer 1st yr enrollment in 2005 for allopathic )
Active Applic- 15,638 ( 91.9 % of the above mentioned graduates )
Matched - 14,566 ( 93.1 % of active applicants )

Us DOs: Graduated - 3,908 ( refer 1styr enrollment in 2005 for osteopathic )
Active Appic - 2,015 ( 50 % of the graduates )
Matched - 1,408 ( 69.9 % of active applicants )

Postions available for others = 22,427 - ( 14566 + 1408 )
= 6453 out of which 1)Unfilled - 1087
2)IMGs - 3112 ( 48.2 % )
3)US IMG - 1619 ( 25 % )
Total IMGs - 4731
4)5th path- 65
5)Canad - 25
6) Previous US grads - 545

NOW MY PROJECTIONS FOR 2013 and 2014 match.....
If we consider the article of IMPACT ON ADMITTING MDs n the projected positions as follows

2011 - 23191
Calc for 2012 - 23586
2013 - 23981
Calc for 2014 - 24390
2015 - 24800

2013 MATCH

Total first year postions - 23, 981

US MDs - Graduates - 18,393 ( Refer to 1st yr. enrollment in 2009 for allopathic )
Active Applic- 16,922 (if 91.9 % of graduates applied same as 2009 match)
Macthed - 15,755 ( if 93.1 % match rate remains constant as 2009 )

US DOs- Graduates- 5100 ( Refer 1st yr. enrollment in 2009 for osteopathic )
Ative Applic- 2550 ( If 50 % graduates applied sm as 2009 match )
Matched- 1782 ( if 69.9 % mtch rate remains constant as 2009 )

Now postions left for others = 23,981 - ( 15755 + 1782 )
= 6443 out of which 1) IMGs - 48.2 % = 3105
2) US IMGs - 25 % = 1610
Total IMGs = 4715 ( PROVIDED 1088 seats go unfilled as in 2009 n accordin to me less number of seats wud go unfilled because of the redistribution ( Health reform bill ) n due to which totals IMGs wud be a little more than 4715 )


So according to me Total IMGs in 2009 were 4731 n in 2013 wud be 4715 ( maybe more due to redistribuion of unfilled slots mentioned above in red )

And by calculating in a similar way in 2014 mactch Total IMGs wud be 4617 ( maybe more due to redistibution of slots mentioned above in red )

I DONT SEE A BLOODBATH.....lolzzzz.....correct me if i m wrong.....Gud Luck , study hard n dun wrry abt the things which r not under your control.....!!

N if there is still a bloodbath we hv PREMATCHs tht r around 2700 every yr for IMG , we hv 2000 slots being pushed in Senate , we hv TEXAS addin sm slots , we hv Veteran expandin , we hv THC slots ....dun wrry guys ...just study hard...!!

HAHA!. You have somehow decided that US MDs and DOs will be unemployed while IMGs will get the unmatched spots and all the prematches. This is ridiculous. When you see the poor results for IMGs in the March match I will be proven correct. It will only get worse in subsequent years.
I have posted all the pertinent numbers above and my math still stands - your distortion of the numbers is funny.
 

Taurus

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Dude, people (from good US MD programs) had a lot of trouble scrambling in the 2009 cycle. Even FM and prelim med was very difficult to scramble into. My buddy who didn't get a prelim med spot had to scramble into a prelim surg one instead. It will be more and more difficult to match in the coming years especially for FMG's unless they raise the cap which I wouldn't bet on. Study harder and be patient so that you can get into a US MD or DO program instead of going Carib. You'll be glad you did.
 

nuclearembargo

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All i am saying is that everyone who graduates frm a medical school doesnt apply for residency....for example in 2009 there were 17000 grads but only 15600 were active apllicants in the NRMP match. And as far as DOs are concerened only 50 % of the DO grads/seniosrs were active applicants in the NRMP match.

My projections is according to the projected resdency poistions in 2013 by AACOM that around 23900.

We cant just blindly substarct all the graduates MD n DO from the available positions.
Go to the NRMP site and check the US seniors as active applicants keepin in mind 17000 grauated this year. Also one more thing shud be kept in mind is that around 1000 US seniors remain unmatched n they have to go for scramble and match rates for DOs is 69.9 % not 93.1% as US seniors.

If the projection by AACOM on residency positions is right then there is no way there will be a blood bath in 2013.
 

RussianJoo

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All i am saying is that everyone who graduates frm a medical school doesnt apply for residency....for example in 2009 there were 17000 grads but only 15600 were active apllicants in the NRMP match. And as far as DOs are concerened only 50 % of the DO grads/seniosrs were active applicants in the NRMP match.

My projections is according to the projected resdency poistions in 2013 by AACOM that around 23900.

We cant just blindly substarct all the graduates MD n DO from the available positions.
Go to the NRMP site and check the US seniors as active applicants keepin in mind 17000 grauated this year. Also one more thing shud be kept in mind is that around 1000 US seniors remain unmatched n they have to go for scramble and match rates for DOs is 69.9 % not 93.1% as US seniors.

If the projection by AACOM on residency positions is right then there is no way there will be a blood bath in 2013.


can you please provide a link to where you found out how many people actually graduated from US medical schools in 2009? it's easy to see how many US seniors applied just wondering where you got 17,000 from.
 

Taurus

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You went and made me break out the calculator. Your numbers are wrong and here is why.

Look at Table 2 on page 5 of the 2009 Match data and results.

You used numbers only from PGY1 positions. However, many specialties such as anesthesiology, derm, ophtho, rad onc, and radiology have separate intern year and residency years. For example, "advanced" radiology residencies require that you complete a separate intern year but you are responsible for interviewing and ranking that intern year separately from the advanced residency program. Some radiology programs are "categorical" meaning that the intern year is built into the radiology residency. The categorical programs are listed only as PGY1. The advanced programs are listed under PGY2. You need to add both PGY1 and PGY2 positions.

Here's a breakdown of the match:

Grand total positions: 25185 <---- this number is stable

US seniors: 16611
US grads: 677
Osteo: 1618
Canadian: 29
5th pathway: 67
---------------------
Total US applicants: 18992 <---- this number is increasing

US IMG: 1735
Non-US IMG: 3302
---------------------
Total FMG's/IMG's: 5037 <---- this number will get squeezed

Unmatched = 25185 - 18992 - 5037 = 1146

Keep in mind that if you match into both an intern year (prelim med, prelim surg, transitional year) and an advanced residency program (anesthesiology, derm, rad onc, and radiology) you will be double-counted. This calculation is valid however because double-counting is consistent for all groups. You may also have the case where the applicant matches into only an intern year but fails to match into a residency (frequently happens to ultra-competitive residencies like derm) or vice versa. This is just a rough calculation but you get the idea. Furthermore, as exPCM pointed out, US seniors and grads will almost always get preference over FMG/IMG's during the scramble. So I wouldn't be focused on the unmatched number.

Per the NRMP (on page 1),

This year, 29,890 applicants vied for one of the 22,427
available first-year and 2,758 second-year residency
positions; 15,638 of those applicants were U.S. allopathic
medical school seniors. The number of U.S. allopathic
seniors participating in the 2009 Match was 396 more then
in 2008; and represents the first increase since several new
medical schools have opened and established medical
schools began their resent expansion in class sizes.


It is too early to determine what effect the increase in the
numbers of U.S. allopathic seniors participating in the
Match will have on other applicant groups: while the match
rates declined for four of the six other applicant groups
, the
number of applicants who matched increased for all
applicant groups.​
 
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nuclearembargo

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my calculations are based on the projections made by AACOM regardin increase in residency positions under the article 'Impact Of Admitting MDs' which is 23,900 first year positions in 2013.......if the residency positions do not increase then obviously IMGs will be sqeezed out.....i was contradicting ExPCM's post in which he said even if the projections by AACOM are right even then IMGs will have no place.....According to me if the projections are right...my calculation is fairly correct because this year there were 22427 positons but in 2013 accordin to projections wud be 23900. So in 2013 there will be additional 1300 MD seniors and 500 DO seniors applyin for 23900 positions not 22427 (additional 1700 positons in 2013 )....!!!
 

nuclearembargo

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All we can do is just hope that the amendment SA 2909 that adds 15000 positions gets approved and the bill passes thru the senate....!!
 
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Taurus

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my calculations are based on the projections made by AACOM regardin increase in residency positions under the article 'Impact Of Admitting MDs' which is 23,900 first year positions in 2013.......if the residency positions do not increase then obviously IMGs will be sqeezed out.....i was contradicting ExPCM's post in which he said even if the projections by AACOM are right even then IMGs will have no place.....According to me if the projections are right...my calculation is fairly correct because this year there were 22427 positons but in 2013 accordin to projections wud be 23900. So in 2013 there will be additional 1300 MD seniors and 500 DO seniors applyin for 23900 positions not 22427 (additional 1700 positons in 2013 )....!!!

Stop wasting our time and look at the 2009 match results from the NRMP. The numbers you use for your calculations are wrong. You use only PGY1 numbers. You're not considering the PGY2 numbers. You can't discount the PGY2 numbers. For example, 80% of radiology positions are PGY2. Anyone with any common sense can see that it is extremely risky to go Carib at this time.
 
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RussianJoo

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my calculations are based on the projections made by AACOM regardin increase in residency positions under the article 'Impact Of Admitting MDs' which is 23,900 first year positions in 2013.......if the residency positions do not increase then obviously IMGs will be sqeezed out.....i was contradicting ExPCM's post in which he said even if the projections by AACOM are right even then IMGs will have no place.....According to me if the projections are right...my calculation is fairly correct because this year there were 22427 positons but in 2013 accordin to projections wud be 23900. So in 2013 there will be additional 1300 MD seniors and 500 DO seniors applyin for 23900 positions not 22427 (additional 1700 positons in 2013 )....!!!

I am sorry speculations are meaningless. Please Show me a link of the actual number of US allopathic and DO grads for 2009. Without such data the only thing one can say is that the number of US Senior applicants into the match roughly equals the number of US grads, sure some might take a year off to get married and have a baby or do research or something but that wouldn't be more than a 1 or 2 hundred people.
 

Ariee

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I do not mean to flame in the slightest here but I am wondering what this means exactly. I don't really believe that Canadian universities are better than American ones. I could be wrong though and I would love to see some actual hard data to enforce this thought.

What I meant is that I think there is a difference between a CDN having to go to a Carib med school and a US student having to go to a Carib med school. CDN's have less med schools, the acceptance rate is half that of the US. I myself wish that I had applied to US MD schools then US DO then the Carib. I applied to CDN md school and Carib as back up...big mistake is what I meant...I've already prematched and secured a spot, but I came into the carib with above 30 on the MCAT and was able to score above 250's on the steps. The CDN's that went to med school with me had similar numbers. My 3 good friends had higher than 30 MCAT's, 2 of the 3 also have secured residency seats, one in ortho and one in uro (they also had wonderful apps)..if u don't have the numbers u won't be able to secure a seat in a good mid-tiered residency program in the states as a Carib grad. My point being that many CDNs go to the Carib with the #'s already. Don't be silly folks, for my fellow CDN's here is what you should do: CDN MD, US MD, US DO, reapply, Carib... hindsight is 20/20. Going to the Carib wasn't that bad, I got what I wanted, but I hate it when folks ask me where'd u go to medschool? That's as a student, I know in a few years, no one will ask, nor care any more, the question will be where'd u do ur residency and I can bust out with the name of the great place I'm doing residency at! Hopefully...
 

Ariee

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my calculations are based on the projections made by AACOM regardin increase in residency positions under the article 'Impact Of Admitting MDs' which is 23,900 first year positions in 2013.......if the residency positions do not increase then obviously IMGs will be sqeezed out.....i was contradicting ExPCM's post in which he said even if the projections by AACOM are right even then IMGs will have no place.....According to me if the projections are right...my calculation is fairly correct because this year there were 22427 positons but in 2013 accordin to projections wud be 23900. So in 2013 there will be additional 1300 MD seniors and 500 DO seniors applyin for 23900 positions not 22427 (additional 1700 positons in 2013 )....!!!

Yes, but there are always some US folks who take a year off, don't match, or go to jail (BU killer-hehe j/k), I bumped into quite a bit of folks like that this year on the IV trail...so don't worry about there not being enough seats for US IMG's, we can't predict what folks will do.

Lastly, an increase in US MD school numbers is really great news, this means that there are more folks being admitted, therefore, those folks going to the Carib will be accepted into the US MD programs. Aren't there qualified folks that go to the Carib every year? Now there will be room for them in the US programs. Wohoooo! Great news, wish it had happened in Canada years ago...but the shortage of physicians and med seats in canada is directly a result of government ran health care, the country does not have the financial resources...where exactly is President Obama getting all this money from & what will be the consequences...
 

Boges

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... CDN's have less med schools, the acceptance rate is half that of the US.

i don't see how it's harder for canadians to get into med school... ~17 canadian med schools and population ~33.5 milion canadians vs. ~114 us med schools and population ~300 million americans...

then consider an applicant such as myself... from california... we have 8 md schools and about 36 million people...

the ratios don't speak for themselves?
 
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Saga1

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Avg in Canadian universities profs are set out with maintaining for undergrad C+
Avg in American universities profs are set out with maintaining for undergrad B

Avg to get into Canadian med school - 3.8
Avg to get into American med school - 3.6 (add in Osteo and it goes down to like 3.4)

You can't compare ratios, it's harder in Canada because more Canadians want to become docs. It's harder because the schooling is harder. School is cheaper here, everyone can afford it. And you guys place a lot of importance on the MCAT (which is GREAT).
 
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coat0023

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It's harder because the schooling is harder

I would like hard data that enforces this statement. Your quoted numbers are hearsay until proven otherwise. Not an angry post, but this is what I was questioning earlier and no one has actually proven or shown this to be anywhere near the case. Thanks!
 

Boges

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I would like hard data that enforces this statement. Your quoted numbers are hearsay until proven otherwise. Not an angry post, but this is what I was questioning earlier and no one has actually proven or shown this to be anywhere near the case. Thanks!

agreed... with statements like "...more canadians want to be docs." and c+ vs. b averages, etc, etc... it comes off as sniveling...

and like the poster above me, this is not anger, it's just pointing out what appears to be baloney. plus, so what?
 
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exPCM

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For every USMG that takes a year off there is likely a USMG that is coming back from taking a year off so the net effect of this is effectively zero.

Wake up people. The Carib schools are all terminally ill. US health reform just passed and includes $400 billlion in Medicare cuts. Medicare is what funds residency spots - hence no added funded for more residency spots will be happening.

Even the osteopathic schools are worried about their survival. Dr. Pletz who was an excellent President of KCUMB osteopathic school for 14 years admitted this in the following email and was later terminated for revealing the truth. Do you think Carib faculty will talk honestly about the fact that there schools are in death spirals? They don't want to lose their jobs either. Here is the email and link:
I am a KCUMB alumni. Earlier today an email was sent to alumni (perhaps current students too?) from President Karen Pletz regarding the DO/MD degree, see below:


Recently, an e-mail was circulated regarding KCUMB's consideration of the offering of a dual DO/MD degree. That e-mail stated that a proposal had been presented tot he KCUMB Board to seek this degree and the LCME accreditation which would be required in order to offer a dual degree.

First, to clarify, the University faculty and staff have been exploring ways to ensure that the future of osteopathic medical education remains viable in the face of a number of serious concerns, including:

§ the AAMC mandate to increase class size by 30% by 2015;

§ the continued failure to raise the federal caps on post doctoral training slots in the U.S.;

§ the dramatic increase in accreditation of new osteopathic medical schools and increases in class sizes/and/or additional locations by others;

§ the restriction of VSAS &#8211; Visiting Student Application Service &#8211; the centralized application service for allopathic clinical clerkship electives, which over 60% of our students currently fill &#8211; to allopathic students only, excluding osteopathic students;

§ the increasing pressure on allopathic post doctoral programs, in which 62% of KCUMB graduates seek residency slots and the certain indication that these slots will go first to graduates of LCME accredited schools;

§ the increasing prevalence of Caribbean medical schools contracting with hospital systems across the country for exclusive rights to clinical clerkships;

§ the current AOA/COCA initiatives to accredit foreign osteopathic medical schools without requiring them to assure available residency slots for the period of seven years.

These very real concerns, which were thoroughly discussed in the spring Communicator titled The Changing Landscape of Medicine, have led to the consideration of a major leadership move for osteopathic medical education.

We would remain an osteopathic institution. We are not considering an MD option, as the Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine Board of Regents approved during the third week of November. We also are not considering giving applicants a choice of degree.

All student applicants to KCUMB's College of Osteopathic Medicine would be applying for a dual degree, from a College of Osteopathic Medicine. But having that dual degree offers access by our students and graduates to programs currently or increasingly restricted to graduates of LCME accredited institutions.

These issues have been identified as of major concern by AACOM and other osteopathic institutions, as well as the AOA.

KCUMB, as you know, has worked continuously to build the quality of our programs and to keep a continuous strategic eye to the future.

It has been our practice to endeavor to have control over our future, and not wait for external circumstances to control us.

If you have questions or concerns, or wish to provide input, please let me know.

Once again, we are and always will be an osteopathic college of Medicine (KCUMB-COM) and our mission would not change. We are considering this opportunity in order to advance osteopathic medical education, and the opportunities to our students in the future.

That is our charge.

Best wishes for a wonderful holiday season!

Karen L. Pletz, J.D.
President and Chief Executive Officer
Kansas City University of Medicine and Biosciences
1750 Independence Ave.
Kansas City, MO 64106-1453
816-283-2301
816-283-2303 (fax)
[email protected]
Link: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=9006616&postcount=86

If anyone who reads this decides to spend big bucks to go to a Carribean school expecting to do a US residency do not say you have not been warned.
 
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dragonfly99

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Personally, I don't think the DO students should have to get a dual degree to be considered for allopathic residencies...though I can understand allopathic hospitals preferring US MD graduates. It seems like it might be better for the DO's to try and strengthen their own residency training system...and/or produce such awesome grads that the allopathic residencies would want to fight over them. Personally I've only worked with a few DO house staff and attendings, but they were all good. If I were a residency program director, I'd certainly prefer one over a non US citizen / non US permanent resident who trained abroad. I'm not sure how I'd fit a US citizen Carib trained person...I guess if I thought the Carib school was good, then it would come down to the individual applicant.

As far as Canadian universities grading lower vs. US ones, I think that's probably true in many cases. However, you've got to realize that not all US universities grade inflate to the same degree...and some of the "big name" ones are known for grade inflating (although are pretty hard to get into so still filled with smart kids) so the fact that someone has a friend who did foreign exchange at one of the "big names" and thought the science classes were easy doesn't prove that much. Also, the admissions criteria for US schools can be quite subjective and not based only, or even primarily (in some cases) on hard numbers so we still have a lot of people with 30+ MCAT's, lots of volunteer hours/time and very high GPA's like 3.8 who don't get in to any US school...at least that's how it used to be. I know b/c it happened to me initially when I applied. You can't take the example of one or two US state schools and see that they let in some people with 3.4/3.5 GPA's and then think that is the norm....sometimes they will do that for candidates felt exceptional in other ways, or underrepresented minority, or a student from a rural town who they think likely to go back and practice primary care.

The increased number of spots in US schools are definitely a good thing for US premedical students, as mentioned by Ariee above. It just means that they should be more hopeful and do more of a full court press to get an admission from SOME school in the US before bailing out for the Caribbean.
 

Taurus

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That's just dumb to offer MD, DO degree. Just convert all DO programs over to MD's. Simple. Note that the CEO of KCUMB med is a lawyer. Figures that a lawyer would come up with an ass-backwards idea like the MD, DO dual degree.
 

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Yaa I second SAGA1. I have personally attended a top US tier school and attended a top Canadian school as well. (did two years at one and two at another). I can HANDS DOWN say that from my experience in similar programs, Canadian Universities are harder. By a long shot. Im sorry, Im not trying to pick on Americans. I love you guys, and I am not saying that anyone is smarter then the other. Im just saying as far as what is expected in classes, how classes are scaled, and class averages......Canadian wins by a landslide.

As far as population goes, I think SAGA is referring to averages and MCATs. WHen that is taken into consideration and it is assumed that a Canadian and US premed have similar volunteering.....US is easier to get into. The argument that "I live in X state therefore can only apply to Y # schools.."

Well same with us buddy. Most provinces have one school. Chances out of province are slim to none.

On another note: Americans can shadow doctors. In Canada its highly illegal to shadow a doctor. Its very rare that people are able to do this. Hence why Canadians go to the US or overseas to shadow doctors as undergrads
 

NotAProgDirector

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One "side effect" of KUMC (or any other osteo school) offering MD/DO degrees is that they would become LCME accredited and hence be match-committed. No more prematches.
 
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