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Ariee

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Also keep in mind that if you are a DO you WILL get a residency... especially because they have their own residency programs, and their own Match... in addition to being able to use the Allopathic match.

Last years match rate for US-IMGs... which include all the carib schools, plus many US students who go to the UK, Poland, India, etc... was 37%

This year's will be a bloodbath.

HJ,
This does nto account for folks who prematch and take positons outside of the match, does it? Just curious...
Ariee :)

P.S. RJ, hang in there, I definitely think u would have had more interviews if your CS was in by September. There is a filter for this. As a Carib folks, you can't have faults like this. An AMG can just have their Step 1 with an average to below average score and be OK. We don't play by the same rules, we are on a different playig ground. I know a girl who only had Step 1 with a score of 240's and a guy from my class who was well in the 250's with both Step 2's and 1 done and she matched and he didn't, b/c she was a US student. They were going for Optho. I have a friend at SGU with similar stats to your's actually and he has 11 IV's for Anesthesia, but he had Step 2 CS in early...
 

howelljolly

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HJ,
This does nto account for folks who prematch and take positons outside of the match, does it? Just curious...
Ariee :)
..


It means 37% of the group of US-IMGs who did not pre-match, and therefore needed to stay in the NRMP to the end, were successful in the Match.
 

Ariee

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Thanks HJ, that was fast :)
Is there a way to find out the percentage that prematched? I know NRMP has stats about people who did not match, but does it have stats about those who withdrew?
Hmm...I will go look for it now...
 

GatorHater

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I have just heard a lot of people think of DO doctors as second rate compared to the MDs. This is not my opinion, just what I have heard from the few people who do know what it is. But I guess it is becoming more popular over the years. The general consensus on here is that US DO is better than Carib MD
 

howelljolly

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I have just heard a lot of people think of DO doctors as second rate compared to the MDs. This is not my opinion, just what I have heard from the few people who do know what it is. But I guess it is becoming more popular over the years. The general consensus on here is that US DO is better than Carib MD

Edited to decrease the offensiveness....

You need to decide how important status is to you, vs. being able to practice as a physician in the US.

The truth is that as a Carib grad, you will have a very difficult time proving yourself. Residencies will close their doors to you. If you dont' go to one of the Big4, you'll be barred from licensure in certain states. Some schools are only elegible for licensure in about 32 states. Some states will restrict your licence for a longer period of time than usual. Some states will require you to be Specialty Board certified and licensed in another state before you can get a license from them. Most states will investigate each one of your clinical rotations to determine where they were done, under who's supervision, and if your school had an offical contract with them. To my knowledge, these extra stipulations aren't placed on DO.

Im just asking you to be careful before you go to the Caribbean, and come back not being able to practice medicine.
 
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NotAProgDirector

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It means 37% of the group of US-IMGs who did not pre-match, and therefore needed to stay in the NRMP to the end, were successful in the Match.

Not sure where you're getting this number from. According to the 2009 Match data:

Total US IMG: 4927
Withdrew / No rank list: 1537 (can't tell if these people prematched, got no interviews, or simply changed their minds)
Active applicants (i.e. tried to actually match): 3390
Matched: 1619 (47.8%)
Unmatched: 1771 (52.2%)
 

howelljolly

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Not sure where you're getting this number from. According to the 2009 Match data:

Total US IMG: 4927
Withdrew / No rank list: 1537 (can't tell if these people prematched, got no interviews, or simply changed their minds)
Active applicants (i.e. tried to actually match): 3390
Matched: 1619 (47.8%)
Unmatched: 1771 (52.2%)


oops! my mistake. I meant 47%, and wrote 37... twice. :oops:
 

Ariee

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aPD, thanks for that post, I didn't think the number was that low either & guite frankly I didn't look it up. HJ, thanks for the stats though :). I know of ~ 15 other people in a class of 100 that have already signed contracts in my class...that's about a 16% prematch rate, can't be carried over to the general population, n is too small...

gator hater- pm me with your questions...I'm grading from the Carib this year, I was not familiar with DO schools either. Come up with a list of your questions and I'll get back to you with thorough answers.
 

howelljolly

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aPD, thanks for that post, I didn't think the number was that low either & guite frankly I didn't look it up. HJ, thanks for the stats though :). I know of ~ 15 other people in a class of 100 that have already signed contracts in my class...that's about a 16% prematch rate, can't be carried over to the general population, n is too small...

gator hater- pm me with your questions...I'm grading from the Carib this year, I was not familiar with DO schools either. Come up with a list of your questions and I'll get back to you with thorough answers.


If I havent alienated and offended you already, I'm also willing to help you out. I graduated from the Carib.
 

GatorHater

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Thanks to everyone for all of the advice on everything, I feel like I am much more informed on the situation that before. And its not that I care so much about the entitlement, just the fact that I don't want to be seen as a lesser doctor because I went to a DO school. Again, not saying that is my opinion, or even if DO doctors are seen in that light, I am asking if they are.....
 

J-Rad

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Again, not saying that is my opinion, or even if DO doctors are seen in that light, I am asking if they are.....

In the vast majority of cases, no. But sometimes I think the answer is slightly more complex than that. My analogy is this: If there is a black MD and they are not a strong doctor, do you think there is going to be a small population of people, both patients and other physicians, who are going to ascribe some of that weakness to the color of the patient's skin? That they were an affirmative action admit to medical school or that blacks aren't as intelligent as whites? But would the vast majority say to themselves something along the lines of: "I've seen crappy white doctors and crappy black doctors (along with good from both), this just happens to be one of the bad and I can't judge all by this one."? In general I'd venture to say that, unfortunately, intellectually invalid judgment based on skin color is far more common than based on degree type, at least from a patient perspective, because 1) at some places (not all) the degree type is not as prominently displayed as "Dr." (the equalizing word in patients' minds) and even if it is 2) The title "Doctor" tends to trump all. Look, I know this is only my exampe, but I have never had any issue with my "DO". I've deliberately had it embroidered on my coat in the past and, at my current large allopathic quarternary care center, it is printed in large font on my ID card and it's on my business card that I hand to all my patients. Never once has anyone had an issue with it. In the four years I've been out of medical school I might have actually reached all the fingers on one hand the times I've been asked about what "DO" meant and it was always a matter of pure curiosity and never a matter of questioning credibility. If it was in the context of a patient-doctor (or if I was doing an echo to help our sonographers) interaction I was always still the doctor, they just saw the opportunity to ask a harmless question. Being asked this has never been a burden (esp. given the number of times it's happened) and if given the time, I enjoy talking about it. At minimum it's an intersting history lesson. (BTW my med school white coat had a huge honkin' DO on it and I didn't get asked about it too many times then either).

If you are a crappy doctor, you will be noted as such by your patients and colleagues, but most will ascribe it to your inherent crappiness. If you're a good doctor who pulls your weight, to other physicians you will simply be known as "colleague".
 

howelljolly

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In the vast majority of cases, no. But sometimes I think the answer is slightly more complex than that. My analogy is this: If there is a black MD and they are not a strong doctor, do you think there is going to be a small population of people, both patients and other physicians, who are going to ascribe some of that weakness to the color of the patient's skin? That they were an affirmative action admit to medical school or that blacks aren't as intelligent as whites? But would the vast majority say to themselves something along the lines of: "I've seen crappy white doctors and crappy black doctors (along with good from both), this just happens to be one of the bad and I can't judge all by this one."? In general I'd venture to say that, unfortunately, intellectually invalid judgment based on skin color is far more common than based on degree type, at least from a patient perspective, because 1) at some places (not all) the degree type is not as prominently displayed as "Dr." (the equalizing word in patients' minds) and even if it is 2) The title "Doctor" tends to trump all. Look, I know this is only my exampe, but I have never had any issue with my "DO". I've deliberately had it embroidered on my coat in the past and, at my current large allopathic quarternary care center, it is printed in large font on my ID card and it's on my business card that I hand to all my patients. Never once has anyone had an issue with it. In the four years I've been out of medical school I might have actually reached all the fingers on one hand the times I've been asked about what "DO" meant and it was always a matter of pure curiosity and never a matter of questioning credibility. If it was in the context of a patient-doctor (or if I was doing an echo to help our sonographers) interaction I was always still the doctor, they just saw the opportunity to ask a harmless question. Being asked this has never been a burden (esp. given the number of times it's happened) and if given the time, I enjoy talking about it. At minimum it's an intersting history lesson. (BTW my med school white coat had a huge honkin' DO on it and I didn't get asked about it too many times then either).

If you are a crappy doctor, you will be noted as such by your patients and colleagues, but most will ascribe it to your inherent crappiness. If you're a good doctor who pulls your weight, to other physicians you will simply be known as "colleague".


Well said Dr. J-Rad.

On the other hand, You'll have the SAME issue, if not worse, as a Carib MD. People will ascribe your inherent crappyness to your Carib diploma, and vice versa. Especially when you're a young doctor or a med student, a question thats MUCH more common than "Whats that DO stand for?" is "Where did you go to medical school?". Thats a seemingly innocuous and friendly question that you'll get again and again, from patients, doctors, researchers in your lab, old friends at your highschool reunion... and that is more likely to raise eyebrows than "Oh I went to NYCOM... or PCOM"

For doctor types, I just deal with the "Oh....", followed by awkward silence. From patients, I might be able to tie it into a fun history lesson to take the focus off of me - how back in 1983 the US Marines were sent to rescue the students at SGU....

Have you seen the season finale of Scrubs, when they went to the Caribbean for the wedding? They take the opportunity to crack at Carib med schools in the scene where Todd the goofball surgeon visits his old med school out there. People "know" why students go to the Caribbean for med school.

Either way, you'll be defending your reputation. In the case of Carib MD, you'll be defending it against colleagues, residency selection committees, employers, and state licensing boards as well.

Pick your poison.
 
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RussianJoo

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HJ,
This does nto account for folks who prematch and take positons outside of the match, does it? Just curious...
Ariee :)

P.S. RJ, hang in there, I definitely think u would have had more interviews if your CS was in by September. There is a filter for this. As a Carib folks, you can't have faults like this. An AMG can just have their Step 1 with an average to below average score and be OK. We don't play by the same rules, we are on a different playig ground. I know a girl who only had Step 1 with a score of 240's and a guy from my class who was well in the 250's with both Step 2's and 1 done and she matched and he didn't, b/c she was a US student. They were going for Optho. I have a friend at SGU with similar stats to your's actually and he has 11 IV's for Anesthesia, but he had Step 2 CS in early...

thanks, happy new year.
 

RussianJoo

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Thanks to everyone for all of the advice on everything, I feel like I am much more informed on the situation that before. And its not that I care so much about the entitlement, just the fact that I don't want to be seen as a lesser doctor because I went to a DO school. Again, not saying that is my opinion, or even if DO doctors are seen in that light, I am asking if they are.....

HJ made some great points. if you're worried that people will think you're a second rate doctor because you're a DO then you should be just as concerned being a Carib MD. The general population isn't dumb, they know why people go to the carib for medical school, it's simple they couldn't get into a US medical school, be it they partied too much in college or just aren't smart enough. Being a DO you can at least tell them that the DO's have a different way of treating a patient, they don't just focus on the disease but treat the patient and the body as a whole, you can say that you fell in love with this part of the Osteopathic dogma and thus picked a DO school over an MD school, I think it's a lot easier to defend your choice for going to a DO school than a carib school, there have been plenty of jokes poked fun of carib MD's on almost every medical TV show, so if anything the lay public knows more about the poor quality of carib MD's than about the second rate doctors that are DO's. In the end of the day as long as you're doing what you love and are good at it, it really doesn't matter if you're a Carib MD or US DO or even a US MD. But going to a US school will give you an easier path to your ultimate goal, that's all. If you'd rather be an MD and endure more hardship along the way that's fine, just know that you're gambling slightly more with your future.

Also just a side note the first DO school opened in the US in 1892 and the first Carib med school to cater specifically to US students opened in the 70's. So the DO's have been around for a long time.
 

howelljolly

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HJ made some great points. if you're worried that people will think you're a second rate doctor because you're a DO then you should be just as concerned being a Carib MD. The general population isn't dumb, they know why people go to the carib for medical school, it's simple they couldn't get into a US medical school, be it they partied too much in college or just aren't smart enough. Being a DO you can at least tell them that the DO's have a different way of treating a patient, they don't just focus on the disease but treat the patient and the body as a whole, you can say that you fell in love with this part of the Osteopathic dogma and thus picked a DO school over an MD school, I think it's a lot easier to defend your choice for going to a DO school than a carib school, there have been plenty of jokes poked fun of carib MD's on almost every medical TV show, so if anything the lay public knows more about the poor quality of carib MD's than about the second rate doctors that are DO's. In the end of the day as long as you're doing what you love and are good at it, it really doesn't matter if you're a Carib MD or US DO or even a US MD. But going to a US school will give you an easier path to your ultimate goal, that's all. If you'd rather be an MD and endure more hardship along the way that's fine, just know that you're gambling slightly more with your future.

Also just a side note the first DO school opened in the US in 1892 and the first Carib med school to cater specifically to US students opened in the 70's. So the DO's have been around for a long time.

Yup, I also remember that "E.R." has done that a few times...
 

GatorHater

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Thanks again for the input. So between waiting and applying another year for an MD, would you all recommend going ahead and applying for some DO schools that accept apps until March. BTW 21 MCAT with 3.7 biochemistry, taking MCAT again (4th time) at end of Jan
 

exPCM

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Thanks again for the input.
So between waiting and applying another year for an MD

Only if you have some compelling reason for delaying a year

Would you all recommend going ahead and applying for some DO schools that accept apps until March. BTW 21 MCAT with 3.7 biochemistry, taking MCAT again (4th time) at end of Jan?

Yes, applying to DO schools right now is a good option
-
 

J-Rad

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Thanks again for the input. So between waiting and applying another year for an MD, would you all recommend going ahead and applying for some DO schools that accept apps until March. BTW 21 MCAT with 3.7 biochemistry, taking MCAT again (4th time) at end of Jan

Thanks again for the input.
So between waiting and applying another year for an MD

Only if you have some compelling reason for delaying a year


Would you all recommend going ahead and applying for some DO schools that accept apps until March. BTW 21 MCAT with 3.7 biochemistry, taking MCAT again (4th time) at end of Jan?

Yes, applying to DO schools right now is a good option


Except that applying late is never a good thing for any school and a 21 MCAT is a further, significant, impediment to any school. You can apply, but there is a good likelihood you'll have wasted some good money (though [for the future] I believe a second time applicant, especially one that's endeavored to improved the CV gets a more favorable look). I think the schools at which you will have a shot at are not going to be the most established schools, and last I looked, even exPCM was discouraging people from those. Use this time to really bone up for the MCAT and get some good ECs (and why not take the MCAT a little later for some added study time?). If you really put some effort forth you might be able to get an MCAT that will put you in good range to apply broadly among (more established) DO and MD schools in the US.
 

WNT Signaling

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Even a 21 is probably too low for DO. People use numbers from Pikeville as having an average MCAT of 21 for accepted students, but that was back in 1997. Retake and apply broadly next year--you're MCAT is just too low to apply this late, unless you have money to pee away, in which case, it doesn't hurt
 

dragonfly99

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It sounds like the OP does not really WANT to go DO, and my feeling is that schools can probably pick up on that at the interview. Also, I agree that with the 21 MCAT the better DO and Caribbean schools would be less likely to take him...though i'm sure that maybe Ross or some others would take him with the 21 because the GPA is high.

I think the OP should study for a few months, retake the MCAT and get some volunteer hours...assuming he is male and probably in his early 20's, I don't see the rush to get into med school THIS YEAR, given that he seems more interested in MD and not DO.

As far as DO's being looked down on...there are some people who do, but I think that is diminishing. And I don't think it's any more prevalent than looking down on someone's Caribbean degree. And OP would be much more certain of getting a residency as a DO graduate...getting a residency is what it's ultimately about. The kinds of residencies that wouldn't take someone because he's a DO very likely wouldn't take a Caribbean graduate either, no matter how high the board scores. And if the OP has this much trouble getting a good MCAT score then I don't think the OP is going to be one of those people with very high USMLE scores...that's not to say he won't be a good doc, but in general the people with the high USMLE Scores are the same people who had high SAT/ACT scores, like well into the 30's, and high MCAT scores.
 

exPCM

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Except that applying late is never a good thing for any school and a 21 MCAT is a further, significant, impediment to any school. You can apply, but there is a good likelihood you'll have wasted some good money (though [for the future] I believe a second time applicant, especially one that's endeavored to improved the CV gets a more favorable look). I think the schools at which you will have a shot at are not going to be the most established schools, and last I looked, even exPCM was discouraging people from those. Use this time to really bone up for the MCAT and get some good ECs (and why not take the MCAT a little later for some added study time?). If you really put some effort forth you might be able to get an MCAT that will put you in good range to apply broadly among (more established) DO and MD schools in the US.

J-Rad you make a lot of good posts but I disagree with you about wasting money. I know of multiple students with 19-21 MCATs who have gotten in and after you get in the rest is up to you. If you want to be selective then focus on applying to schools with a history of taking students with lower MCATs or schools that are just getting off the ground. I am normally not a proponent of new schools without a well established track record (they are IMO at higher risk of giving you a suboptimal education) but I think they are more likely to have overall lower stats than the established schools and with your 21 MCAT I think they are a better bet..
Specifically you might consider these (check the deadlines):
VCOM. WVSOM, PCSOM, NYCOM, Touro-NV & NY, PNWU, DCOM, PCOM-GA, William Carey.
That is a list of ten and if you get your apps out quick I think you still have a reasonable shot as long as also have already lined up reference letters. If you don't have reference letters lined up you are really behind and will need to get in high gear ASAP to get this done.
 
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thepoopologist

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Thanks again for the input. So between waiting and applying another year for an MD, would you all recommend going ahead and applying for some DO schools that accept apps until March. BTW 21 MCAT with 3.7 biochemistry, taking MCAT again (4th time) at end of Jan


With a 21 MCAT you can only go up. I say retake (not necessarily Jan if you are not ready), apply early and broadly next year to US MD/US DO/Caribbean MD schools, and if/when you matriculate you'll be more at ease knowing that you did all you could to get into the best schools possible.

I also think you should spend the extra time reading up on Carribean and DO schools.
 
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J-Rad

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J-Rad you make a lot of good posts but I disagree with you about wasting money...

I see your point. I think the truth is the matter of whether to apply this cycle is more of a grey area than either your or my post made it out to be. If the money to pay for the apps (primary and secondary) is freely available (it's not for a lot of college students, though) it may be worth a try this cycle. But that has to go with the realization that at this point the odds are against the apllicant in question, esp. if the ECs are weak to non-existent (I frankly don't remember if GH mentioned ECs). If he/she has good ECs and healthcare experience then I think it's even more reasonable to give a shot this go round. The other question is if that $ would be better spent putting toward an MCAT prep class (obviously delaying the Jan test-date)-this assuming the money could only go to one or the other (hey, if the $ is there for both, then do both). I think Gator really has to weigh the factors that only he/she knows about to come to the "right" decision for hime/her.
 

dragonfly99

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But do you guys think that someone with a 21 MCAT score is ready to tackle med school at this point, or does something need to change with the study skills, etc.? I'm having a hard time reconciling the 3.7 GPA with the 21.
 

Ariee

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J-Rad you make a lot of good posts but I disagree with you about wasting money. I know of multiple students with 19-21 MCATs who have gotten in and after you get in the rest is up to you. If you want to be selective then focus on applying to schools with a history of taking students with lower MCATs or schools that are just getting off the ground. I am normally not a proponent of new schools without a well established track record (they are IMO at higher risk of giving you a suboptimal education) but I think they are more likely to have overall lower stats than the established schools and with your 21 MCAT I think they are a better bet..
Specifically you might consider these (check the deadlines):
VCOM. WVSOM, PCSOM, NYCOM, Touro-NV & NY, PNWU, DCOM, PCOM-GA, William Carey.
That is a list of ten and if you get your apps out quick I think you still have a reasonable shot as long as also have already lined up reference letters. If you don't have reference letters lined up you are really behind and will need to get in high gear ASAP to get this done.

Serious. A 19-21 MCAT can get you into medical school???? See that's what I mean for the CDN student, should have applied to US MD/DO schools first b4 the Carib...
 

Ariee

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But do you guys think that someone with a 21 MCAT score is ready to tackle med school at this point, or does something need to change with the study skills, etc.? I'm having a hard time reconciling the 3.7 GPA with the 21.

That's tough? How did they pull the 3.7 if it is a studying skill problem? IMHO, I think perhaps the problem is not studying and regurgitating answers but learning how to master the standardized exam. I would suggest the help of a prep course such as Kaplan, with the aid of questions, do questions questions questions...isn't that how we all got through our boards....

Also, DF, I agree with you about the pursuit of another career...I had a gf/roommate who went to the Carib with us and failed out of 3 classes and now she is at NP school. Interestingly she is doing very well in that cirric in the US...

Going to the Carib ain't peachy, you got to be tough to be able to deal with a different government, system, policy...get friends, do ur work and pull through. If you succeed at the end, it's quite sweet and I think one works ten times as hard @ the end...
 

shaima ahmed

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hi,
i am shaima ..i ahev done my pre-medical in india..i recently graduated..i want to do my residency in surgery in mauratius ? How do i apply for it??and what all procedures do i need to go through so ican apply please help....
 

howelljolly

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hi,
i am shaima ..i ahev done my pre-medical in india..i recently graduated..i want to do my residency in surgery in mauratius ? How do i apply for it??and what all procedures do i need to go through so ican apply please help....

Premedical? Have you done an MBBS? If not, I suppose you need to before you can apply for residency.

Mauritius is off the eastern coast of Africa. It is 13,504 kilometers (8391 miles) from the SGU campus in the Caribbean. You should post this question in one of the other international discussion forums.
 

docbill

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Premedical? Have you done an MBBS? If not, I suppose you need to before you can apply for residency.

Mauritius is off the eastern coast of Africa. It is 13,504 kilometers (8391 miles) from the SGU campus in the Caribbean. You should post this question in one of the other international discussion forums.

this is hardly the right place to post this question.
Plus Mauritius is French, so you may have to repost the question in French.
 

GatorHater

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Hey guys figured I would check back in. Took the MCAT again, made a 25 and now I have no idea what to do. Applied to DO schools and all of them recently received all of my app. information.
 

Ariee

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FYI...some of my classmates matched into CaRMS (Canadian Residency Match)...The results are: Derm, IM, Optho...

Adding to Carms: Plastic Surgery, Ortho Surgery...
 
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Morsetlis

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FYI...some of my classmates matched into CaRMS (Canadian Residency Match)...The results are: Derm, IM, Optho...

Adding to Carms: Plastic Surgery, Ortho Surgery...

School? ~Stats? This sounds amazing. How does CaRMS work in relation to the NRMP?

Also, any news for the 2010 Match?
 

relaxedMD

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I will post my comment as a separate thread
 

Ariee

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thank you, i am pretty excited... but this thread is for sgu residencies not ross lol...

hahaa...what can i say...i met a few rossers along the way...congrats again man! really happy for you :)
 
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