Shadowing an ortho surgeon

[Ephesus]

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I have the option to shadow an ortho surgeon (with sports medicine fellowship) for one day a week, 10 hours a day, for the next year. It will work in my time table fine, and he said he'll see if he can get me in the OR on his OR day occasionally.

My question is will shadowing a doc for ~500 hours look a lot better than shadowing for the typical 100 hours that most students have? Especially if your GPA is lackluster?

 

[LifetimeDoc]

No amount of shadowing, extra curricular activities, volunteering, etc. will make up for a low GPA. Maybe a higher than average MCAT can makeup for a lower than average GPA, but the only way to raise your GPA is to take more upper-level science courses and get A's in them all.

Also, it's the quality of the shadowing/EC/Volunteer service that matters and the length of time, not the raw quantity of hours. I'd suggest shadowing him and making sure that you make other physician contacts so that you can see a variety of specialties. Work the interpersonal system!

 

[postbacker]

Maybe it is just me, but I can't imagine shadowing one doc for that much time...better to spread your shadowing around...and focus on your grades.

 

[Ephesus]

LifetimeDoc: I understand that, but I still like to believe that some med schools look at the whole picture rather than just grades + MCAT. And I thought if they saw that amount of shadowing, it would look favorable. That's all.

 

[postbacker]

LifetimeDoc: I understand that, but I still like to believe that some med schools look at the whole picture rather than just grades + MCAT. And I thought if they saw that amount of shadowing, it would look favorable. That's all.

You still have to jump the GPA/MCAT "hurdle" to get to the secondary/interview stage...the median matriculant GPA/MCAT is currently 3.6/30 (and reportedly climbing as we speak), so anything "south" of this erodes your chances at success.

An excessive amount of shadowing will not make up for any deficiencies in these baseline stats...

 

[LifetimeDoc]

LifetimeDoc: I understand that, but I still like to believe that some med schools look at the whole picture rather than just grades + MCAT. And I thought if they saw that amount of shadowing, it would look favorable. That's all.

Well, it depends on what you think of as a lackluster GPA. Are we talking about comparing two candidates, one with extensive shadowing experiences and a 3.5 versus one without and a 3.75? Or are you talking about shadowing making up for a 3.1 GPA?

Also, the breadth and long-term significance of ECs are more important than just the raw number of hours spent doing them. Whether it's 500 hours with that physician or 100 hours, I don't think makes a difference. Seeing him practice over an entire year, yes that would be important in that you've seen the ups and downs of his particular specialty over a long period of time.

If I were on the ADCOM, I'd rate each of a candidate's ECs on the following...

1. What was the significance or relation to medicine for this particular EC to the candidate? Did it help them discover why they want to be a physician?
2. Months/Years spent on project, not raw hours. Was this something the candidate was truly interested in showing dedication, was it just a one-time thing, or was it just done to pad the application?
3. Is this something unique that would add to our class? Does the EC show that the candidate will work well with others in the class, bring a depth of experiences to the learning experience?

Like what Postbacker said, you first need to get over the minimum/cutoff hurdles of MCAT/GPA (which is generally accepted to be a 3.0 GPA and a 24 on the MCAT at a minimum, and to be really considered at all a 3.3 GPA and a 27 on the MCAT), then they start looking at your ECs.

 

[jae9970]

i think a better question to be asked here would be:

is it better to make commitment to a single activity, or should i spread my time and participate in a lot of different activities, but only getting to know a little bit about each?

100 hours in one shadowing vs. 5 different shadowing experiences with about 20 hours each

 

[Ephesus]

I had extenuating circumstances of a chronic illness that has plagued my life for four years. I think it's finally over but it has done permanent damage to my GPA. I am not worried about the MCAT, but I won't be able to graduate with a GPA above 3.25. (My science GPA won't be affected) I would still like to go to an allo school, if possible, so I am trying to see what else I can do the strengthen my application.

Well, it depends on what you think of as a lackluster GPA. Are we talking about comparing two candidates, one with extensive shadowing experiences and a 3.5 versus one without and a 3.75? Or are you talking about shadowing making up for a 3.1 GPA?

Also, the breadth and long-term significance of ECs are more important than just the raw number of hours spent doing them. Whether it's 500 hours with that physician or 100 hours, I don't think makes a difference. Seeing him practice over an entire year, yes that would be important in that you've seen the ups and downs of his particular specialty over a long period of time.

If I were on the ADCOM, I'd rate each of a candidate's ECs on the following...

1. What was the significance or relation to medicine for this particular EC to the candidate? Did it help them discover why they want to be a physician?
2. Months/Years spent on project, not raw hours. Was this something the candidate was truly interested in showing dedication, was it just a one-time thing, or was it just done to pad the application?
3. Is this something unique that would add to our class? Does the EC show that the candidate will work well with others in the class, bring a depth of experiences to the learning experience?

Like what Postbacker said, you first need to get over the minimum/cutoff hurdles of MCAT/GPA (which is generally accepted to be a 3.0 GPA and a 24 on the MCAT at a minimum, and to be really considered at all a 3.3 GPA and a 27 on the MCAT), then they start looking at your ECs.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

I had extenuating circumstances of a chronic illness that has plagued my life for four years. I think it's finally over but it has done permanent damage to my GPA. I am not worried about the MCAT, but I won't be able to graduate with a GPA above 3.25. (My science GPA won't be affected) I would still like to go to an allo school, if possible, so I am trying to see what else I can do the strengthen my application.

You can still make it with that GPA. My GPA after graduation was a 3.1, and I had various circumstances (family illness, etc.) as well that I explained in my personal statement and interviews. I did a 2 year informal post-bacc at my local college with all A's (4.0) and got a 33 on the MCAT, and got into one allopathic school (thankfully one of my top choices).

You should talk to the allopathic medical schools in your state (or ones that consider you in-state if you live in a state without a medical school) and see what they recommend you do. Some might suggest you take post-bacc coursework to increase your GPA and show an upward trend, others might suggest you do a formal SMP program, and some might suggest you apply with what you have.

DO (osteopathic) schools will take a more holistic approach to your application than MD (allopathic) schools. If you would rather do allopathic, I'd suggest applying to allopathic first, then consider osteopathic the second year if you need to reapply. Talk to a pre-med adviser or medical schools now if you can to make plans for applying in the future.

As a side-note, congrats on getting such a great shadowing opportunity! Sounds like they like you, and if you impress them and act professionally during the year, it could lead to an awesome Letter of Recommendation (which is more important than just listing the shadowing)!

 

[Ephesus]

That's encouraging to hear. I will be does the Harvard Extension program so I will get a sponsorship from them which I hear is very valuable.

Yeah, I am happy too. I've known the doc for 4 years now and he's had the 'joy' of doing three of my surgeries. Even did two for free (didn't want to file the Medicaid paperwork to get reimbursed a whole 200 dollars for a 2.5 hour surgery) He's a nice guy and we get along so I am looking forward to learning more about ortho surgery. I was really interested in neuro surgery some time ago, but I am starting to realize that ortho surgeons get to do a lot more cutting which I prefer.

 

[soeagerun2or]

LifetimeDoc: I understand that, but I still like to believe that some med schools look at the whole picture rather than just grades + MCAT. And I thought if they saw that amount of shadowing, it would look favorable. That's all.

lol grades and MCAT are the whole picture

 

[soeagerun2or]

LifetimeDoc: I understand that, but I still like to believe that some med schools look at the whole picture rather than just grades + MCAT. And I thought if they saw that amount of shadowing, it would look favorable. That's all.

lol grades and MCAT are the whole picture