Shadowing as a 4th year? Really?

[BlueberryMuffin]

Has anyone had the unfortunate experience of having to shadow an attending as a fourth year? By shadow I mean literally follow the doctor around from room to room without being able to see any patients on your own, even take a freaking history or have any input in patient care whatsoever. I need people to share similar stories so I can feel better about my current situation and not flip out on somebody (if I do, I promise it will be in a non-violent way). Basically, I am a 4th yr med student doing a required FM rotation. I will be matching into a non-clinical specialty so I don't really need this rotation to improve my skill set per se, but I still tried to have a very positive attitude going in. Since day 1, my schedule has been as follows: every AM I shadow the NP. I follow her around with a computer and type up the HPI (mind you, she is asking the questions). I am not allowed to type in any A/P. Occasionally, I get to see a patient (oh Joy!), but it is always one of the following: allergy vs cold vs flu sx, bp check, cholesterol check. Then in the PM I "shadow" the attending, but he doesn't let me touch the computer except to type in VS. So I just stand there like an idiot while he does the H&P. Occasionally he will acknowledge my presence to impart knowledge, like "Seborrheic keratoses have malignant potential" - sure doctor.....

The majority of my job is scut. I do not even feel like a 3rd year med student. Really more like a nursing assistant. My various jobs include: fetching charts, fetching various forms to fill out, fetching samples from the infamous sample closet, and Rx refills (not actually writing rx, just looking up the last time medication was refilled and last office visit was). The attending wanted me to enter treadmill data into the computer but I had to draw the line there.

Does anyone else find this rotation set-up like this to be inappropriate for a fourth year medical student? I don't mean to come off arrogant, but I'm going to be a doctor in three months. How I am supposed to function autonomously with rotations like this? It is my fault for not speaking up and letting this go on as long as it has ....but seriously?

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[PeepshowJohnny]

Man, that stinks. I feel for you.

Some of my 4th year experiences have been somewhat "shadow" like, but it's because they're short and in subspecialty areas I know nothing about. Like, if I do Rad Onc for a couple weeks, the doctor knows I don't know crap, and I can learn a bit by spending time with him. On our required rotations, it's pretty much treated like a SubI.

 

[WorkaholicsAnon]

Honestly, sometimes you even do some shadowing as a 3rd year RESIDENT. In a setting where you're working with an attending to see his/her own patients, attendings can be particular about what is said to those patients, as well as how they like to have things done in their clinic work, as well as working quickly if there are lots of patients to be seen. Do not take it personally.

As for learning potential, it is hard to understand this at your level, but even if you're just standing there "like an idiot," it is still a valuable learning experience to see how that attending has structured his/her clinic work to be efficient. I hardly did any outpatient rotations as a med student, and I regret that now as a PGY2-3, because most of future work past residency is outpatient, in clinics.

Oh, but i'm seeing you're going into a nonclinical specialty. . .so that's why you see no learning value. . . well, if that's how you feel, why are you getting mad that you aren't taking the histories or doing the physicals? You should be happy you just have to shadow. Why even sign up for such a rotation then?

 

[OrnotMajestic]

Oh, but i'm seeing you're going into a nonclinical specialty. . .so that's why you see no learning value. . . well, if that's how you feel, why are you getting mad that you aren't taking the histories or doing the physicals? You should be happy you just have to shadow. Why even sign up for such a rotation then?

Well, if I was him/her I'd be pretty bored. Even if I was going non-clinical like the OP, having to shadow ALL DAY would just prove that there are indeed fates worse than hell. Personally, I'd probably stop showing up, if that was the case.

 

[Dral]

Oh, but i'm seeing you're going into a nonclinical specialty. . .so that's why you see no learning value. . . well, if that's how you feel, why are you getting mad that you aren't taking the histories or doing the physicals? You should be happy you just have to shadow. Why even sign up for such a rotation then?

Haha, these were my thoughts exactly. I dunno, I learn a lot when I shadow. If I always get to see patients, I tend to make similar interview/PE mistakes. If you REALLY pay attention during a shadowing experience with the intention of picking out and noting the things you hope to change/improve upon, you can get a lot out of it.

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

Haha, these were my thoughts exactly. I dunno, I learn a lot when I shadow. If I always get to see patients, I tend to make similar interview/PE mistakes. If you REALLY pay attention during a shadowing experience with the intention of picking out and noting the things you hope to change/improve upon, you can get a lot out of it.

Sure maybe, even as a fourth year you can learn something from a good attending by shadowing. Scribing for an NP though, damn I'd have to say something.

 

[dilated]

It's freaking FP. Of course shadowing a NP as a 4th year is absurd. This is not a gray area.

You need to say you want to see your own patients, then if he says no you need to immediately email the course director. At least you can know you'll be the last person subjected to wasting time there (assuming your school isn't sucky and desperate to place students anywhere).

 

[MSKalltheway]

It's freaking FP. Of course shadowing a NP as a 4th year is absurd. This is not a gray area.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with that one. Even as a 3rd year, shadowing as a rare occurence...Id hate to be stuck in that situation, its actually demeaning to some degree.

 

[BlueberryMuffin]

Thanks for the reponses. So I'm not the only one who thinks this is a little ridiculous. To the person who asked why I care about seeing patients...I am taking my Step 2 CS next weekend and was hoping this month would serve as practice doing H&Ps after months of path rotations. Unfortunately, this month is required for our school. There is no way in HELL I would ever choose this as an elective

I think the reason they don't let me do anything is because the attending only sees rich people (mostly CEOs). I didn't know there are rich-people-doctors. I guess another part of my frustation is that I have to stand there while attending and Mr. CEO get all buddy-buddy and talk about golf (i am a woman) and how traveling around the world can be so exhausting. Also I have to work 9-10 hours a day while I know other students at different sites are regularly working 4-5 hours a day. Thanks for listening.

 

[248934]

Honestly, sometimes you even do some shadowing as a 3rd year RESIDENT.

Absolutely. It feels humiliating to still be shadowing as a PGY-1 or a PGY-3. But it can happen when you're doing off service rotations. Make the most of it. Learn what you can from observation, and you will get something out of it.

The only difference between shadowing as a resident vs student is that as a resident, that still counts as work time. It helps to learn from practice, but having a mix of both is good too.

 

[CuriousKat]

BlueberryMuffin,

Definitely better to have this experience as a med student than as a resident. It is something to really consider if you are pursuing a procedural or surgical residency/fellowship. If you are at a program that is very fellow driven or with ommnipresent attendings, your autonomy and "hand on experience" may be limited and you may do some shadowing as a resident.

 

[LadyWolverine]

The difference between you and a 3rd-year resident is that YOU ARE PAYING TUITION. You SHOULD be very angry with this experience, and you SHOULD go IMMEDIATELY to your clerkship director and inform him/her of the circumstances if your attending refuses to treat you like a 4th year student. You should then ask to be transfered to a clinical site where you will have the duties and responsibilities commensurate with your abilities.

I disagree wholeheartedly with the posters who are telling you to suck it up and just let it go. You are paying for this experience, and likely paying very dearly. You should NOT be a scribe, you should NOT be shadowing, and you should NOT be taught by an NP. You are going to school to learn how to be an M.D. - Not a scribe or an NP.

Observing surgery/procedures is worlds different from shadowing a FP in a clinic. There is no reason you should not be seeing your own patients, writing your own H&Ps, coming up with your own A&Ps, and then discussing and modifying them with your attending. That's the WHOLE POINT of medical school, and why you are paying through the nose for this opportunity. They aren't doing you any favors.

 

[GoBuckeyes913]

Has anyone had the unfortunate experience of having to shadow an attending as a fourth year? By shadow I mean literally follow the doctor around from room to room without being able to see any patients on your own, even take a freaking history or have any input in patient care whatsoever. I need people to share similar stories so I can feel better about my current situation and not flip out on somebody (if I do, I promise it will be in a non-violent way). Basically, I am a 4th yr med student doing a required FM rotation. I will be matching into a non-clinical specialty so I don't really need this rotation to improve my skill set per se, but I still tried to have a very positive attitude going in. Since day 1, my schedule has been as follows: every AM I shadow the NP. I follow her around with a computer and type up the HPI (mind you, she is asking the questions). I am not allowed to type in any A/P. Occasionally, I get to see a patient (oh Joy!), but it is always one of the following: allergy vs cold vs flu sx, bp check, cholesterol check. Then in the PM I "shadow" the attending, but he doesn't let me touch the computer except to type in VS. So I just stand there like an idiot while he does the H&P. Occasionally he will acknowledge my presence to impart knowledge, like "Seborrheic keratoses have malignant potential" - sure doctor.....

The majority of my job is scut. I do not even feel like a 3rd year med student. Really more like a nursing assistant. My various jobs include: fetching charts, fetching various forms to fill out, fetching samples from the infamous sample closet, and Rx refills (not actually writing rx, just looking up the last time medication was refilled and last office visit was). The attending wanted me to enter treadmill data into the computer but I had to draw the line there.

Does anyone else find this rotation set-up like this to be inappropriate for a fourth year medical student? I don't mean to come off arrogant, but I'm going to be a doctor in three months. How I am supposed to function autonomously with rotations like this? It is my fault for not speaking up and letting this go on as long as it has ....but seriously?

That sucks, and must be boring as hell. I had the unfortunate experience of shadowing during my 2nd looks for interviews.... in the ED. It was awful.... I felt useless, and I was trying to get to know/impress the PD and I had to follow a resident and him around like a puppy. I felt so annoying, and I even annoyed myself. Hang in there, man.