Shadowing: How much to be competitive?

[kk123]

I know there is no requirement for a certain amount of shadowing hours to be accepted into medical school, but I was wondering what is considered a competitive amount of shadowing?

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[deleted407021]

The consensus is about 50 hours, incorporating at least one PCP. What's really important is being able to communicate knowledgeably about what doctors really do day to day, and that it is something you would like (or dislike) doing for a career.

 

[Oso]

I would say about 50-75 hours spread across a few different specialties (whatever interests you). Note that once you reach that 'sufficient' amount, additional shadowing won't really do much for your application. 300 hours won't really impress anyone. Good luck!

 

[organesha]

Based on what I've discerned from SDN and from personal experience, there is no "competitive amount of shadowing" per se. I would suggest viewing the quality of the experience rather than the quantity of hours. Make the most of every hour of shadowing (e.g. be engaging/engaged, ask questions, write down things to look up, etc.) and consider keeping a sort of journal to record the happenings during that day. At least for me, this works as a good record of memorable and/or impactful experiences/thoughts/interactions that I've had while shadowing that I might be able to discuss at some point in my application.

 

[FutureMD129]

My goal is 50 minimum with at least one PCP (peds, IM, FM, OBGYN). So far I have 12 hours.

 

[mimelim]

I know there is no requirement for a certain amount of shadowing hours to be accepted into medical school, but I was wondering what is considered a competitive amount of shadowing?

I don't think you understand the purpose of shadowing.

 

[baxt1412]

I had a lot of shadowing due to my mom working in the hospital for almost 30 years and being well-liked. (>300 hours across oral/maxillofacial, transplant (2 docs), ortho, rheum/immune, and plastics). I actually didn't get any PCP shadowing in, however I have been working full time in a PCP clinic since June so maybe they factored that in.

 

[mimelim]

I don't think you understand the purpose of his question. He might attain valuable experience from 20 hours of shadowing and reach the peak there, but if it looks better on an application to have 50 versus 20 hours, he will stay the extra 30 to make himself a more competitive applicant. Seemed like a reasonable question to me and others.

You think that there are people who the utility of shadowing drops off after 20 hours? Is that a joke? I can't tell if you are being serious or not.

There is no "competitive amount of shadowing". Asking a question like this demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of why we care if you have shadowed physicians before you apply to medical school. There isn't a checkbox on your application for shadowing and treating it as such can only damage your application.

 

[litotes]

There isn't a checkbox on your application for shadowing and treating it as such can only damage your application.

80% of premeds treat it like a checkbox and get into medical school just fine. If you think otherwise you're deluding yourself.

 

[baxt1412]

You think that there are people who the utility of shadowing drops off after 20 hours? Is that a joke? I can't tell if you are being serious or not.

There is no "competitive amount of shadowing". Asking a question like this demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of why we care if you have shadowed physicians before you apply to medical school. There isn't a checkbox on your application for shadowing and treating it as such can only damage your application.

kind of my reasoning behind getting so many hours in too, even though I continued to see people on here saying I already have double or more than the hours they recommend.

 

[g gnome]

This seems more binary than quantitative to me. As long as you can answer questions like, "what do you think will be a challenge in the day to day of being a dr," or "what is something that surprised you when shadowing," or "what are the qualities of a good physician," and answer them by connecting to your own experiences, I think that you will be fine. Perhaps 50 hours is a good goal to get a decent idea of what it is like to be a physician, but it is arbitrary. In truth, this should be for your own sake, i.e. can I see myself in medicine, is surgery something I would pursue, what patient population do I see myself working with, etc. Having insightful observations like this are the sort of things that can springboard good conversation in an interview.

Best of luck.

 

[mimelim]

80% of premeds treat it like a checkbox and get into medical school just fine. If you think otherwise you're deluding yourself.

For starters, you have no data to support that. Secondly, I never stated that you couldn't get into medical school treating shadowing as a checkbox. Maybe you should reread my post before you quote it.

 

[ProudMD]

Like others have said, 50 hours is a good amount to aim for. But feel free to shadow more!

 

[WedgeDawg]

As it has been said, aiming for a discrete number of hours is not the best way to go about shadowing. Yes, doing 50 hours will "check the box" so to speak, but the true value behind shadowing (in terms of medical school admission) is being able to reflect on what you have experienced and articulate how this impacts your desire to enter a career in medicine. Much of what you get out of shadowing happens during the introspection that occurs after you shadow. This is really when you will be able to work through and process the emotional, mental, and physical aspects of what you witnessed during your shadowing. Different people are able to process and articulate their feelings after a different amount of shadowing. Some people can do it after 30 hours, while for others it takes 100. Don't "aim for" a specific number, just shadow until you feel like you find you "get something" out of it and can clearly explain the impact it has had on you. That being said, it will be easier to convince someone that shadowing has allowed you to realize x, y, and z if you spent, say 60 hours shadowing as opposed to 15, but the person who shadows for 20 hours and writes very convincingly and eloquently about those 20 hours will be in a much better position from an admissions standpoint than someone who shadows for 100 hours and can't seem to convey what they learned or how they grew.

 

[RedPhys]

Depth vs Breadth

 

[Glandzburg]

You should do enough shadowing to determine if medicine is right for you, considering everything physicians do that differs from inaccurate television portrayals.

That being said, I seem to recall a school or two that actually have a minimum number of hours (U of Washington = 40 hours?).

 

[Lucca]

The main thing you should realize is that 20-50 hours isn't even a single week in the life of a Resident MD. So saying that you can get 20 hours and "know what it is like to be a doctor" is not very accurate. That's why it's more important to identify specific challenges, look at the quotidian tasks, etc, and then be able to say "I am not immediately turned off by medicine and, in fact, it looks like it's a job I'd like to do."

 

[Goro]

Concur. But to the OP, 1000 hrs of shadowing is no better than 50 hrs. No applicant in the history of Medicine has gained an accept for having tons of shadowing hours.

Like others have said, 50 hours is a good amount to aim for. But feel free to shadow more!

 

[litotes]

For starters, you have no data to support that. Secondly, I never stated that you couldn't get into medical school treating shadowing as a checkbox. Maybe you should reread my post before you quote it.

"treating it as such can only damage your application"

 

[Psai]

"treating it as such can only damage your application"

"There is no 'competitive amount of shadowing'. Asking a question like this demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of why we care if you have shadowed physicians before you apply to medical school. There isn't a checkbox on your application for shadowing"

 

[BuffPremed]

Question: I volunteer in the ED during the summers. It's a smaller ED so typically we don't see many patients during many hours. When we do doctors and PAs allow the volunteers to follow around and see what they do. Could I count this as shadowing time?

 

[Psai]

yes

 

[TheRhymenocerous]

My local academic medical center doesn't allow shadowing by non-medical students, yet expect applicants to their medical school to have shadowing experience. Yes, there are other places to get shadowing experience (though the academic medical center is the largest in the area by a long shot), but doesn't it seem a bit hypocritical? Has anyone else run into this?

 

[Mad Jack]

I don't think you understand the purpose of shadowing.

I prefer competitive shadowing. You get two premeds shadowing at once and watch them try to outgun each other.

 

[gyngyn]

Definitely! It would also be very beneficial if you were able to get a letter of recommendation from one of the doctors.

I cannot recommend shadowing letters for MD applications..

 

[gyngyn]

Really? I always thought they were great additions to your applications. I am applying to DO and MD schools this cycle and was fortunate enough to get a letter from the DO and MD that I shadowed. I'm sure it can't hurt?

DO schools often request physician letters, especially from DO's.
MD schools see them as fluff (with few exceptions).
Fluff does not help. It can hurt if used in place of a substantive letter.

 

[mimelim]

I believe he was referring to this overdramatic statement: "There isn't a checkbox on your application for shadowing and treating it as such can only damage your application."

Also, he doesn't need data to support that, it's pretty much common sense nowadays. I personally would have said ~90%.

I'm sure you have contributed plenty to these forums, and I do thank you for that, but these forums probably would not be effective if there wasn't some debate involved.

Have a great weekend everyone!

Debate is good. The issue is that you, like he don't know much about this process and trying to assert that you do is foolhardy. You can call it, "overdramatic" all you want. I've lost track of the number of applications that we toss out because it was obvious that someone treated some or all of their application as checkboxes. Can you get into medical school by ticking things off of your list? Absolutely. But, it can be harmful to your application.

Definitely! It would also be very beneficial if you were able to get a letter of recommendation from one of the doctors.

And then you say stuff like this. You are a pre-med. That by itself doesn't mean a whole lot because there are a lot of very experienced pre-meds out there. But, I'm sorry, but you don't know this process. You don't know what we are looking for. There are people on here that have gone through this from the admissions side many times (some maybe even 10+). Getting letters from people you shadow shows incredibly poor judgement. Never mind that they tend to be very weak letters. What is the best possible thing that you expect them to be able to say? You should know that they are going to be weak letters, ergo if you include them, it reflects poorly on you.

Maybe you think that it is 'common sense' to box check. Maybe that is the culture around you. Maybe that is what 90% of the people around YOU do. That doesn't mean that the majority have the same attitude. Based on the applications that have crossed my desk, I would have said the number is closer to 15-20% and yes, they on average have a much worse chance of getting in.

 

[gyngyn]

I see where there may have been confusion with my response; I guess I was under the assumption that he/she was getting a committee letter as opposed to just submitting all the letters. My pre-health advisor strongly suggested letters from doctors that you have shadowed because for the committee letter they only take the great parts of the letter, thus minimizing the "fluff."

One must submit whatever the committee demands when using a committee letter. Perhaps this is how they confirm that shadowing has occurred.
This may be the origination of the perception that physician letters are required.
We actually do not find these letters useful when submitted outside of internal requirements.

 

[litotes]

@mimelim aight so explain how you can ascertain whether a given MD applicant with 100 hours of physician shadowing has done said shadowing while "treating it as a checkbox" or no? by asking them for takeaways during the interview?

 

[mimelim]

@mimelim aight so explain how you can ascertain whether a given MD applicant with 100 hours of physician shadowing has done said shadowing while "treating it as a checkbox" or no? by asking them for takeaways during the interview?

Read someone's personal statement, read their posting history on SDN, talk to them for 1 minute during an interview etc. The most dangerous part about being a pre-med is that you don't know what you don't know. This isn't me bashing pre-meds "nowadays", I certainly fell into the exact same boat. I probably knew less than the average pre-med does now and depended almost entirely on mentors/advisers to guide me through this process.

The main issue is that applicants think that they are sneakier than they actually are. They think that they can bull**** adcoms. Its true, there are a certain fraction of the applicant pool that make stuff up or represent more than they actually did and end up in medical school. But, time and time again, every single season without fail, people will do worse than they expected on the interview trail because they shortchanged themselves experience wise. At many places, you will be asked by 3 or more different people, "Why medicine?" Then a couple more will also read your personal statement. If you can't 'say the right things' and reflect on experiences that you had to back those things up, you hurt your application to medical school.

This is by no means an application killer. Plenty of non-genuine people get into medical school. No where will I claim otherwise. However, knowing what you are getting yourself into is something that schools from the top of the rankings to the bottom of the rankings (excluding for profit Caribbean schools) care about. We have all seen students and then residents who should not have gone into medicine and now EVERYONE is suffering, from the school to the residency to their colleagues and most importantly that student. The best way to figure out whether or not medicine is the right path for someone is to spend time observing what that profession does. It isn't about the number of hours. It is about the experience and how it relates to that individual. People are a lot more transparent than they think, especially to people that read hundreds of applications and interview dozens of people every season. There are specific red-flags that we look for when people are talking to us and yes, the "I'm checking boxes so that you will like me." is one of them.

 

[Narmerguy]

Just to mix things up a bit, I had 0 hours of shadowing.

 

[mimelim]

Just to mix things up a bit, I had 0 hours of shadowing.

I've lost track of my medical school application, but I'm pretty sure I wrote down less than 50 hours.

 

[gyngyn]

Just to mix things up a bit, I had 0 hours of shadowing.

Shadowing didn't exist when I applied.

 

[Goro]

1000% agree. I wish mods would sticky this.

You'd be surprised how fast our radar gets tripped when we interview someone who has a checklist mentality.

I also see plenty of posts from people who boast of how they checklist, and later complain of 7+ interviews, but 0 accepts.

I'll give you a hint: "cookie cutter".

Read someone's personal statement, read their posting history on SDN, talk to them for 1 minute during an interview etc. The most dangerous part about being a pre-med is that you don't know what you don't know. This isn't me bashing pre-meds "nowadays", I certainly fell into the exact same boat. I probably knew less than the average pre-med does now and depended almost entirely on mentors/advisers to guide me through this process.

The main issue is that applicants think that they are sneakier than they actually are. They think that they can bull**** adcoms. Its true, there are a certain fraction of the applicant pool that make stuff up or represent more than they actually did and end up in medical school. But, time and time again, every single season without fail, people will do worse than they expected on the interview trail because they shortchanged themselves experience wise. At many places, you will be asked by 3 or more different people, "Why medicine?" Then a couple more will also read your personal statement. If you can't 'say the right things' and reflect on experiences that you had to back those things up, you hurt your application to medical school.

This is by no means an application killer. Plenty of non-genuine people get into medical school. No where will I claim otherwise. However, knowing what you are getting yourself into is something that schools from the top of the rankings to the bottom of the rankings (excluding for profit Caribbean schools) care about. We have all seen students and then residents who should not have gone into medicine and now EVERYONE is suffering, from the school to the residency to their colleagues and most importantly that student. The best way to figure out whether or not medicine is the right path for someone is to spend time observing what that profession does. It isn't about the number of hours. It is about the experience and how it relates to that individual. People are a lot more transparent than they think, especially to people that read hundreds of applications and interview dozens of people every season. There are specific red-flags that we look for when people are talking to us and yes, the "I'm checking boxes so that you will like me." is one of them.

 

[nOchemallday]

You think that there are people who the utility of shadowing drops off after 20 hours? Is that a joke? I can't tell if you are being serious or not.

Perhaps this is my n=1, but shadowing honestly added nothing for me at any point up to now (applican of current cycle). It was not reaffirming - I wanted to be a doctor before I shadowed, didn't want to any more or less after watching other people be doctors. It was not insightful - being a doctor is just like any other job: you have a strategy and you have knowledge. You carry out your strategy by applying your knowledge, then communicate that strategy and your subsequent findings to your patient. It was not informative - The only difference between shadowing and going for a checkup is that you don't have to sit in the waiting room for 45minutes after your appointment was scheduled to start and you instead sit around while the doctor fills out extra paperwork. You also get to ask them random questions that have little relevance to your pre-med condition, considering there's only a 44% chance you even make it somewhere which such answers may still be helpful. I anicipate that I would find shadowing vastly more useful if I were a medical student conidering a given specialty.

I don't mean to sound crass, but each of you are plenty capable and successful at what you do and shadowing doesn't appear to have had any utility prior to applying:

Just to mix things up a bit, I had 0 hours of shadowing.

I've lost track of my medical school application, but I'm pretty sure I wrote down less than 50 hours.

I'm certain I was way under that

Shadowing didn't exist when I applied.

Yet you all (please correct me if this is an incorrect assumption) suggest that it is an important aspect of knowing what you're getting yourself into. It's important to be knowledgeable about the profession and what it entails. It's to "[know] the right things to say" while reflecting on your experiences for support... If the argument is that the profession has changed since you've gone through it and that change warrants a "fuller" understanding, then why would we expect it to stop changing. That's to say, if it hasn't changed, then shadowing is not essential (as evident by the above quotes). If it is still changing, then how is anything we get from shadoing going to be relevant? IMO, the only thing that's changed is the process: Adcoms want to see that your decision is informed - a checkbox of sorts.

EDIT: typo

 

[mimelim]

Perhaps this is my n=1, but shadowing honestly added nothing for me at any point up to now (applican of current cycle). It was not reaffirming - I wanted to be a doctor before I shadowed, didn't want to any more or less after watching other people be doctors. It was not insightful - being a doctor is just like any other job: you have a strategy and you have knowledge. You carry out your strategy by applying your knowledge, then communicate that strategy and your subsequent findings to your patient. It was not informative - The only difference between shadowing and going for a checkup is that you don't have to sit in the waiting room for 45minutes after your appointment was scheduled to start and you instead sit around while the doctor fills out extra paperwork. You also get to ask them random questions that have little relevance to your pre-med condition, considering there's only a 44% chance you even make it somewhere which such answers may still be helpful. I anicipate that I would find shadowing vastly more useful if I were a medical student conidering a given specialty.

I don't mean to sound crass, but each of you are plenty capable and successful at what you do and shadowing doesn't appear to have had any utility prior to applying:




Yet you all (please correct me if this is an incorrect assumption) suggest that it is an important aspect of knowing what you're getting yourself into. It's important to be knowledgeable about the profession and what it entails. It's to "[know] the right things to say" while reflecting on your experiences for support... If the argument is that the profession has changed since you've gone through it and that change warrants a "fuller" understanding, then why would we expect it to stop changing. That's to say, if it hasn't changed, then shadowing is not essential (as evident by the above quotes). If it is still changing, then how is anything we get from shadoing going to be relevant? IMO, the only thing that's changed is the process: Adcoms want to see that your decision is informed - a checkbox of sorts.

EDIT: typo

This has already been addressed.

Read someone's personal statement, read their posting history on SDN, talk to them for 1 minute during an interview etc. The most dangerous part about being a pre-med is that you don't know what you don't know. This isn't me bashing pre-meds "nowadays", I certainly fell into the exact same boat. I probably knew less than the average pre-med does now and depended almost entirely on mentors/advisers to guide me through this process.

The main issue is that applicants think that they are sneakier than they actually are. They think that they can bull**** adcoms. Its true, there are a certain fraction of the applicant pool that make stuff up or represent more than they actually did and end up in medical school. But, time and time again, every single season without fail, people will do worse than they expected on the interview trail because they shortchanged themselves experience wise. At many places, you will be asked by 3 or more different people, "Why medicine?" Then a couple more will also read your personal statement. If you can't 'say the right things' and reflect on experiences that you had to back those things up, you hurt your application to medical school.

This is by no means an application killer. Plenty of non-genuine people get into medical school. No where will I claim otherwise. However, knowing what you are getting yourself into is something that schools from the top of the rankings to the bottom of the rankings (excluding for profit Caribbean schools) care about. We have all seen students and then residents who should not have gone into medicine and now EVERYONE is suffering, from the school to the residency to their colleagues and most importantly that student. The best way to figure out whether or not medicine is the right path for someone is to spend time observing what that profession does. It isn't about the number of hours. It is about the experience and how it relates to that individual. People are a lot more transparent than they think, especially to people that read hundreds of applications and interview dozens of people every season. There are specific red-flags that we look for when people are talking to us and yes, the "I'm checking boxes so that you will like me." is one of them.

There are plenty of people that get into medical school having little idea what they are getting into and things work out, I include myself in this. I got lucky. My father (an MD by training) told me that I would be happy doing it and realizing that I wasn't going to go very far in Physics I went pre-med in Junior year. But, as every person that has set foot in medical school can attest to, there are a number of people that this ISN'T true for. They are miserable because they went for bad or even stupid reasons. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place and could have figured it out BEFORE even bothering to apply. Just because it works out for some people, doesn't mean that it isn't an important thing to think about. Schools are getting better and better every year about refining who they want in their classes. You would be hard pressed to find an admissions committee these days that don't value shadowing as an experience because the consequences of not having it CAN be very bad and it happens every year.

 

[amad01]

I shadowed 4 docs 2 PCP total of 46 hours... I cannot think of a single interview (of 15 interviewers I believe) where I wasn't asked to share a shadowing experience. One interviewer was looking over my app and asked, "so 46 hours with Dr. x?" and I said no, it was 46 hrs total. He then replied with, "Are you sure you've seen enough to know what you're getting into?" I was just like... yeah lol. Result: accepted.

I think there is definitely a box check # of hours (~50) to show you have "seen enough" although it totally depends on who happens to be looking at your app that day. Then beyond that it comes down to how good you are at story time. The PCP 'requirement' is also another box check. Do the applicants make up these boxes? I don't think so. Either way, make sure you can share some stories and experiences of shadowing in your interviews because you will almost surely be asked about them. If you can share whatever the interviewer is looking for and only shadowed 3 hours then I guess that's good enough... but when you are up against 10,000 others with 50+ hours you gotta keep your app out of the trash to begin with.

 

[Narmerguy]

Perhaps this is my n=1, but shadowing honestly added nothing for me at any point up to now (applican of current cycle). It was not reaffirming - I wanted to be a doctor before I shadowed, didn't want to any more or less after watching other people be doctors. It was not insightful - being a doctor is just like any other job: you have a strategy and you have knowledge. You carry out your strategy by applying your knowledge, then communicate that strategy and your subsequent findings to your patient. It was not informative - The only difference between shadowing and going for a checkup is that you don't have to sit in the waiting room for 45minutes after your appointment was scheduled to start and you instead sit around while the doctor fills out extra paperwork. You also get to ask them random questions that have little relevance to your pre-med condition, considering there's only a 44% chance you even make it somewhere which such answers may still be helpful. I anicipate that I would find shadowing vastly more useful if I were a medical student conidering a given specialty.

I don't mean to sound crass, but each of you are plenty capable and successful at what you do and shadowing doesn't appear to have had any utility prior to applying:




Yet you all (please correct me if this is an incorrect assumption) suggest that it is an important aspect of knowing what you're getting yourself into. It's important to be knowledgeable about the profession and what it entails. It's to "[know] the right things to say" while reflecting on your experiences for support... If the argument is that the profession has changed since you've gone through it and that change warrants a "fuller" understanding, then why would we expect it to stop changing. That's to say, if it hasn't changed, then shadowing is not essential (as evident by the above quotes). If it is still changing, then how is anything we get from shadoing going to be relevant? IMO, the only thing that's changed is the process: Adcoms want to see that your decision is informed - a checkbox of sorts.

EDIT: typo

I understand the reluctance and skepticism that many people feel about shadowing--obviously I didn't bother doing a single bit despite knowing that it was expected. I would say it's a bit like marrying a hot model. Some people think they know what they want, they know the downsides of being with models, and are ready to seal the deal from day 1. Others may recommend going on a few dates and getting to see the model's personality first. It's not that you can't know what marrying the model will be like, or that you're necessarily doomed, but a lot of people only see the glitz and glam and end up in a miserable marriage trying to figure out how they can get out of their hell hole. Now if you're the model's parent (ie the Adcom), you don't want somebody who will marry and then drop the model when things are rough. You want someone who knows what they're getting into, who shows that they have a clear understanding of the great and the frustrating. When you've got thousands of suitors, why would you expect anything less?

So you say you know what you're getting yourself into, that's fair, a lot of people say that. I imagine most people say that. But the reality is that many people, perhaps still most, don't, and no one benefits from unprepared trainees who realize the career isn't what they thought several years in. I didn't shadow, not because I knew I wouldn't learn or benefit from it, but because I knew that I could probably get away with not shadowing and I tried to fill my time with other meaningful activities. I'm not necessarily one of those people who believes shadowing is absolutely beneficial for everyone. However, I would absolutely say that you bear all the risk of not shadowing or not taking it seriously. Sometimes that works out, but just because some people (possibly including yourself) gain little from shadowing doesn't mean this is what one would expect or recommend in aggregate.

 

[argle_bargle]

I don't think you understand the purpose of his question. He might attain valuable experience from 20 hours of shadowing and reach the peak there, but if it looks better on an application to have 50 versus 20 hours, he will stay the extra 30 to make himself a more competitive applicant. Seemed like a reasonable question to me and others.

Nothing personal, but imo this mentality is everything that is wrong with being pre-medicine right here.

 

[Dr.Wink]

I'd say ~40.
Although I got in with 0. So there's that.

 

[gyngyn]

I didn't do it because it wasn't an option, not because it was a bad idea.

 

[cs24]

My local academic medical center doesn't allow shadowing by non-medical students, yet expect applicants to their medical school to have shadowing experience. Yes, there are other places to get shadowing experience (though the academic medical center is the largest in the area by a long shot), but doesn't it seem a bit hypocritical? Has anyone else run into this?

What you may not realize as a premed is that academic medical centers already have huge teams of people (attending, residents, students, etc) seeing patients, which they may feel is already overwhelming enough to the patients without throwing some premeds that serve even less of a purpose to the team than medical students into the back of the pack. Also, they may want to leave open space for their M1/2s to get shadowing experience, because unfortunately even in your clinical years you get exposure to relative few medical fields before you have to pick a career to apply for (at my school its 8..) so preclinical shadowing can really help you narrow things down. Finally, most medical students will end up in community practice, not academics, so shadowing at a large academic institution probably isn't the most realistic picture of the average medical students future career.

Or (most likely) your medical center just doesn't want to deal with coordinating premedical shadowing and doesn't care what you guys think because you don't impact their bottom line or patient care. With that said, there are valid reasons they may not want premeds to shadow there.

 

[mimelim]

What you may not realize as a premed is that academic medical centers already have huge teams of people (attending, residents, students, etc) seeing patients, which they may feel is already overwhelming enough to the patients without throwing some premeds that serve even less of a purpose to the team than medical students into the back of the pack. Also, they may want to leave open space for their M1/2s to get shadowing experience, because unfortunately even in your clinical years you get exposure to relative few medical fields before you have to pick a career to apply for (at my school its 8..) so preclinical shadowing can really help you narrow things down. Finally, most medical students will end up in community practice, not academics, so shadowing at a large academic institution probably isn't the most realistic picture of the average medical students future career.

Or (most likely) your medical center just doesn't want to deal with coordinating premedical shadowing and doesn't care what you guys think because you don't impact their bottom line or patient care. With that said, there are valid reasons they may not want premeds to shadow there.

It costs us $1000 to do all of the necessary paperwork and credentialing to have a single pre-med shadow one of our surgeons.

 

[JPSmyth]

You think that there are people who the utility of shadowing drops off after 20 hours? Is that a joke? I can't tell if you are being serious or not.

There is no "competitive amount of shadowing". Asking a question like this demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of why we care if you have shadowed physicians before you apply to medical school. There isn't a checkbox on your application for shadowing and treating it as such can only damage your application.

@mimelim I completely see where you're coming from, but on the other hand... Schools receive ~8,000 applications and only invite 500 for interviews (theoretically). When looking over the applications, if somebody has very similar numbers from similarly ranked schools, with similar ECs, would the applicant with more hours be the one to get an invite? In the interview process it is obviously important to be able to elaborate on your experiences shadowing and what you learned from it, but most people won't even make it to the interview to get the chance to explain "even though I only had 20 hours of shadowing it was the most informative 20 hours of my life"

Basically, an adcom can't know on paper if one person's 500 hours is more valuable than another person's 50 hours, right?

 

[gyngyn]

@mimelim I completely see where you're coming from, but on the other hand... Schools receive ~8,000 applications and only invite 500 for interviews (theoretically). When looking over the applications, if somebody has very similar numbers from similarly ranked schools, with similar ECs, would the applicant with more hours be the one to get an invite? In the interview process it is obviously important to be able to elaborate on your experiences shadowing and what you learned from it, but most people won't even make it to the interview to get the chance to explain "even though I only had 20 hours of shadowing it was the most informative 20 hours of my life"

Basically, an adcom can't know on paper if one person's 500 hours is more valuable than another person's 50 hours, right?

I cannot recall a single instance in which a difference in shadowing hours was a defining element in the screening process.
Shadowing is a proxy for understanding the nature of a physician's work. Establishing this understanding is what is important, not the shadowing per se.

 

[JPSmyth]

I cannot recall a single instance in which a difference in shadowing hours was a defining element in the screening process.
Shadowing is a proxy for understanding the nature of a physician's work. Establishing this understanding is what is important.

@gyngyn so how do you know that the applicant gained something from their experience to help them understand the nature of a physician's work? Everybody on SDN says that you have to make the most out of every experience, but how do you get that across on paper? For example, two students both shadowed in the same specialties for the same amount of time. One was engaged and enthusiastic the entire time, soaking everything in. The other was just checking the clock until he got to go home. Their applications look the exact same, how can you possibly tell the difference between the two? (Just trying to play devil's advocate here, I don't mean to sound rude)

 

[senzen]

@gyngyn I always wondered how do adcoms or schools pre-screen for "content"? I'm assuming this refers to ECs like shadowing and volunteering.

Is that a California thing or do schools all over do it? @Catalystik

Is it system based or like do actual human adcoms check it over?

How is it at DO schools? @Goro

Is a student out if they don't have experiences like shadowing, volunteering, etc.? I've heard over and over again there is no set hours, so what is it based on?

 

[senzen]

@gyngyn so how do you know that the applicant gained something from their experience to help them understand the nature of a physician's work? Everybody on SDN says that you have to make the most out of every experience, but how do you get that across on paper? For example, two students both shadowed in the same specialties for the same amount of time. One was engaged and enthusiastic the entire time, soaking everything in. The other was just checking the clock until he got to go home. Their applications look the exact same, how can you possibly tell the difference between the two? (Just trying to play devil's advocate here, I don't mean to sound rude)

I'm curious about this too. Perhaps it's based on the way they describe the activity or what they say in interviews?

 

[gyngyn]

@gyngyn I always wondered how do adcoms or schools pre-screen for "content"? I'm assuming this refers to ECs like shadowing and volunteering.

Is that a California thing or do schools all over do it? @Catalystik

Is it system based or like do actual human adcoms check it over?

How is it at DO schools? @Goro

Is a student out if they don't have experiences like shadowing, volunteering, etc.? I've heard over and over again there is no set hours, so what is it based on?

Yes, we screen for content. It would not be a wise use of resources to invite people who had no chance to make it through committee.
I've only ever served at MD schools in CA.
We don't use a software screen, but when they are used it is for MCAT and/or gpa parameters. I know of no software that can assess AMCAS content.

 

[senzen]

Yes, we screen for content. It would not be a wise use of resources to invite people who had no chance to make it through committee.
I've only ever served at MD schools in CA.
We don't use a software screen, but when they are used it is for MCAT and/or gpa parameters, generally.

I totally understand that! That's why I guess many people feel compelled to complete activities so they can ultimately "check boxes" when it comes to the application.

Does it vary by school? How does one screen them? Is it like you look for activities like clinical volunteering, research, non-clinical volunteering, etc.? Hours? Time period? I can't imagine 10 hours of volunteering all throughout undergrad or completing something in an one month time frame would be looked upon favorably.

Or is it more specific? Like you guys are inclined to reject someone who, for example, let's say never volunteered at a hospital?

I think it's so important to make the most out of all experiences but I can't blame people for being inclined to do things so they can "check boxes" off when there is a screening process and specific things that every school looks for.