Shadowing-- is it pointless?

[tenable2]

So I've been shadowing a surgeon for the past 2 weeks, and I have about 20 hours under my belt. Every doctor I've come across while I was shadowing told me that shadowing was entirely pointless-- one even said I wasn't going to "see anything you can't see on the Discovery Health Channel." I was going to ask for a letter of recommendation from the doctor I'm shadowing, but it feels stupid to do so, especially when he doesn't know anything about me and all I've been doing is following him around-- which sometimes, I don't even do, because when he doesn't feel like dealing with me, he tells me to go find a med student.

How important is the shadowing? I really feel like I"m wasting my time and I don't know what to do.

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[Lshapley]

Well, I think it is just to show an adcom that you know what a doctor does. A LOR from this doctor would probably be useless, unless you really hit it off with him or offers to write a really good one for you. Shadowing certainly shouldn't be the core of your EC's, just a little something to show that you took the time to find out what it's like to be a doctor.

 

[voager]

I think you need to either change your doctor...or in addition to that do some volunteering at city clinics or community hospitals ..may be you come across some doctor who is willing to show you a true nature of work of this field....you need to keep in mind that some times patients do not feel comfortable in having some one watching the procedure.....i think a lot of permission issues and consent issues...thats why you are not getting what you are looking for, and again if you feel you wont get good
LOR then why not to start working for it ..i mean let your Doctor know your personality .....try to get his attention when he is not busy ..like join him during luch breaks or coffee break ...rather than talking about your plans ....let him talk about his profession ...his work ...make him feel that you are not there to only polish your resume or application but actually dedicated to explore the Med field... last but not the least let your experience controlled by him....even then you feel its not wroking for you...go and find research interships in Hospitals etc.

 

[DrMidlife]

Yeah, this is not at all like my experiences shadowing. I haven't had any intent to get an LOR from a shadowing experience, but I could see that need working into the experience, if the doctor knows up front that an LOR is something you need. The doc can be paying more attention and/or interview you, etc.

But these guys sound burned out and not wanting to be bothered.

By contrast, the 3 days I've spent shadowing in clinic and observing surgeries, so far, have been amazing. It's asinine to say that watching TV can compare - shadowing isn't supposed to be entertaining. Shadowing to me is about seeing the parts that aren't fun or interesting, getting exposed to the buildup of frustrations that make docs not want to be docs, and just how much work by a horde of people is involved in getting work done. Etc. I'm more interested in colorectal surgery than in neurosurgery, based on my shadowing experiences, which is not at all what I would have predicted. I'm appalled by the way midlevels talk about their patients, with total lack of respect. I'm totally over the misconception that it's the physician who is in charge, runs the show, makes it all happen. The MD/DO is a high paid bit player.

Best of luck to you.

 

[tenable2]

Thanks, guys.

Yeah, I don't think this dr will write me a good letter of recommendation. He literally didn't know my name after spending 20 hours with me. Also, he's insanely busy and I don't think he cares either way, if I come in or not.

It's incredibly disheartening to hear doctors tell you that it's pointless to shadow when you are actually there to shadow them. I try to be as least intrusive and as helpful as I can be, but I really feel like I'm a huge annoyance to them.

I think I'll just find a different doctor to shadow.

 

[Lshapley]

Look for some volunteering opportunities, too. You might have to try out a couple of things before you find something that is actually worthwhile. Out of the four medical opportunites I tried out over the last year, only two were worth my time. One of these was a volunteer gig that I was able to maximize (many other volunteers seemed to just stand and watch) and the other was a research opportunity that was actually a class. The other two were clearly resume padders and pure wastes of my time. I ended them and moved on. Keep trying and you will find the right thing!

 

[postbacker]

So I've been shadowing a surgeon for the past 2 weeks, and I have about 20 hours under my belt. Every doctor I've come across while I was shadowing told me that shadowing was entirely pointless-- one even said I wasn't going to "see anything you can't see on the Discovery Health Channel." I was going to ask for a letter of recommendation from the doctor I'm shadowing, but it feels stupid to do so, especially when he doesn't know anything about me and all I've been doing is following him around-- which sometimes, I don't even do, because when he doesn't feel like dealing with me, he tells me to go find a med student.

How important is the shadowing? I really feel like I"m wasting my time and I don't know what to do.

Getting an LOR should NOT be the end goal or purpose of shadowing...LORs from doctors are basically useless anyway...

 

[ScubaEMT]

From the admissions people I have been lucky enough to talk with, the thing about shadowing, working as an EMT, etc is that you learn what physicians do on a daily basis and get a general idea of what it takes to be a good physician.

The LOR from a physician that you shadowed basically acts as proof that you did actually shadow somebody, but little else... Its not like they can really vouch for your work ethic or anything of that nature.

Whether you want to waste a LOR on somebody who isnt going to be able to provide an admissions committee any real insight on who you are as a person/candidate is up to you. I think that getting even a crappy job in a healthcare setting and working VERY hard is probably better in the long run.

 

[Yourmother]

I wouldn't ask for an LOR from that guy, based on what you just said.

I too question the significance of shadowing. In the distant past I volunteered at a local ER, but I was 18 and everyone likes the youngster.

At 31, I am going to feel like a total dork asking a doctor if I can follow him or her around. What do you do during shadowing? Just follow someone around like a '****.

Heck, I've got the same premature silver hair as Anderson Cooper so I'm really gonna look old.

 

[remo]

A lot of people downplay shadowing but I think that is because it is hard to find the right person to shadow. In my opinion the right shadowing relationship gives you FAR more clinical exposure than any volunteer deal will. If you can find someone that takes an interest in you then it will be an invaluable experience. Shadowing got me an unbelievable LOR (which is definitely helpful). A good letter from an MD is important to have if you can get it. It also got me involved with clinical research. Most of what I talked about in my interviews came from my extensive shadowing experiences. You just need to find the right person to shadow. You might try a private hospital that doesn't have many/any residents and students there (as opposed to a university one). You can find docs there that "miss" the teaching aspect of a university hospital and would love to have someone tag along.

 

[remo]

Heck, I've got the same premature silver hair as Anderson Cooper so I'm really gonna look old.

That was a benefit for me! Patients just assumed I was another surgeon because I didn't look like some kid.

 

[Nasrudin]

Of course I feel I must represent the insane radicals in this venue--both of us--when I say that shadowing is a rude, trite, and voyeuristic intrusion into the doctor patient relationship.

One should get one's hands dirty. Be thrown into the midst of the system. See what it's like for patients and other health care professionals and of course by performing some measure of utility to others witness the art and practice of excellent physicians when that opportunity presents itself.

Standing around, getting in the way, and looking rather out of place....hmmm...not for me.

 

[DrMidlife]

Whether you want to waste a LOR on somebody who isnt going to be able to provide an admissions committee any real insight on who you are as a person/candidate is up to you. I think that getting even a crappy job in a healthcare setting and working VERY hard is probably better in the long run.

Note that most DO schools require a letter from a physician, DO strongly preferred. There are plenty of ways to EARN a letter from a physician, of course, but I doubt that most DO applicants do so. Thus a post-shadow letter verifying attendance.

 

[Yourmother]

Note that most DO schools require a letter from a physician, DO strongly preferred. There are plenty of ways to EARN a letter from a physician, of course, but I doubt that most DO applicants do so. Thus a post-shadow letter verifying attendance.

As always, Midlife makes another good point.

 

[DrMidlife]

As always, Midlife makes another good point.

Thanks.

Can I make another? To speak to Nasrudin's point, I get very uncomfortable with the idea of a 20 year old from the pre-allo crowd in the examination room, bored and missing their ipod, not interacting with the patient, waiting to be told what to do. Shadowing for the purpose of checking a box is *****ed and yeah, it's rude and invasive. If it's primary care, or gyn, psych or urology, that's just not cool at any age.

For this nontrad, on my 3rd clinical surg shadowing experience today, I'd argue that it's a different thing. I'm still getting something out of it, and I've figured out how to give a bit. I interact with the patients as much as is appropriate - maybe that's just complimenting her shoes, or maybe it's talking her through the pain of a shot in the knee, or maybe it's being another set of eyes with which to make eye contact when describing an ailment. There's standing there, and there's being present. I think the distinction might be lost on a younger crowd. Furthermore I have the cajones to not be insulted if I get confused for a nurse. Try that one on a female 20 year old premed...

I was introduced as a student to each of 40 patients today, and most of them said "welcome" as in "welcome to my space that I could kick you out of if I wanted to." These were pre-op and post-op visits, very quick, very methodical. I would have stepped out at any waft of a hint that my presence was a problem, and trust me I'm GREAT at knowing when I'm not wanted. Maybe 15 patients interacted with me directly, asked me how my apps were going, asked advice for their 16 year old who wants to be a doc. I was very careful to stay within my bounds, as in, I am not who you are here to see, but I am here, you are more than your ailment to me, and it's lovely of you to allow my presence.

Lastly, the nice thing about being a 41 year old woman premed, observing the actions of a 42 year old male orthopod, with his 20-70 year old male and female patients is that everybody expected me to act like a... 41 year old who is interested in medicine, which I did, so no problem. The orthopod expected me to know the fine points of Hillary Healthcare 1994 vs. Hillary Healthcare 2007, which I do, so no problem. I wanted to be able to discuss a medical career as a mature adult who has done her homework and footwork, and honestly, I think the orthopod was relieved by this, and enjoyed the discussion. With the average 20 year old it must be a lot like babysitting, and tedious for all involved.

Just like everything else, you get out of it what you put into it.

 

[tenable2]

Thanks for everyone's input.

I'm only applying to MD schools, so I guess a LOR from a doctor carries less weight in my case. I already have about 300 hours in volunteer hours at the local child life unit in the hospital, so I'm good there.

The stupid thing about shadowing is that you can't do anything but stand around like an idiot. I really made a lot of effort to find out which cases the surgeon I was shadowing would be doing; I looked all of it up and studied intensely. I really couldn't have worked harder at shadowing if there is such a thing as working during shadowing. Even still, I had zero opportunity to show any of it off because I had to stay out of everyone's way. That was my main thing; to not be a pain in the as.s to anyone. Even med students are treated like annoyances, so imagine being much lower on the totem pole than the lowest you can get, and that's what you feel like when you're shadowing. At least that was the case for me.

I could see how shadowing could let you see the real environment of a hospital and see patient/doctor interaction, but you don't need to log 40 hours to see this. 5 hours is plenty, IMO.

 

[chemphd]

What do you do during shadowing? Just follow someone around like a '****.

Depends on the shadowing experience. I shadow an academic physician in clinic, so sometimes I follow him, sometimes the interns or fellows. Because he's teaching them, I learn a lot from following him around, and the interns frequently let me do things like take blood pressures. I'm a chemist by training, so he asks me a lot about different drugs he comes across. He also offered to write me a nice letter, so I took him up on it. I never felt invisible while I was shadowing, and it was good to get an idea of what he did on a day-to-day basis.

 

[Nasrudin]

Sure. I don't mean to imply any impropriety on anyone's behalf intentionally.

What I am testing in the coming 1-2-or-3 years before I enter this profession is why there is so little advocation for justice in health care. Why doesn't anybody give 2 ****s enough to consider the fact that the patient is under duress and wouldn't want to be considered a "bad patient," by being "unfriendly" by wanting a little privacy between them and their physician. There is no protection under law for a person who claims to be a "premed," there is no license that obligates them to a code of professional conduct or confidentiality. A well-organized volunteer group with background checks, perhaps. But just accompanying a physician along as they say..."why yes Mrs. Higgins this is so-and-so now about your STD is your husband exhibiting any symptoms"....etc. The consequences of advocating for yourself and questioning your own medical providers in health care these days can be disastrous to your future relations in a particular health care system. If you or your loved ones have ever been in the system on the patient end have a bad experience you know what I'm talking about.

So...like that. Nothing personal. Just my own personal awe at the our systems' deliberate maintenance of conflicts of interest with impunity if not reward. This is only one tiny example of lack of regard for patients.

 

[postbacker]

Sure. I don't mean to imply any impropriety on anyone's behalf intentionally.

What I am testing in the coming 1-2-or-3 years before I enter this profession is why there is so little advocation for justice in health care. Why doesn't anybody give 2 ****s enough to consider the fact that the patient is under duress and wouldn't want to be considered a "bad patient," by being "unfriendly" by wanting a little privacy between them and their physician. There is no protection under law for a person who claims to be a "premed," there is no license that obligates them to a code of professional conduct or confidentiality. A well-organized volunteer group with background checks, perhaps. But just accompanying a physician along as they say..."why yes Mrs. Higgins this is so-and-so now about your STD is your husband exhibiting any symptoms"....etc. The consequences of advocating for yourself and questioning your own medical providers in health care these days can be disastrous to your future relations in a particular health care system. If you or your loved ones have ever been in the system on the patient end have a bad experience you know what I'm talking about.

So...like that. Nothing personal. Just my own personal awe at the our systems' deliberate maintenance of conflicts of interest with impunity if not reward. This is only one tiny example of lack of regard for patients.

For the record, I dislike shadowing, too, for all the reasons you have given. Doing volunteer work in a clinic is great, but shadowing is real hit or miss and is a burden on the system, particularly the patients...

 

[Nasrudin]

For discussion just one example of how a dubious, seemingly innocuous, institutionally sponsored practice can be:


I witnessed 2 fresh interns in charge of admitting patients out of the ED counter the advice of an ex-army ED physician, with more experience than both of these two wingnuts put together had been alive, who said that patient X did not have meningitis. But because they were anxious new doctors wanting to learn new procedures with pockets stuffed with reference material that told them they should perform a spinal tap, they proceeded without supervision to approach a non-english speaking patient with their ominous white coats to proceed with one. So larry and curly then proceed to bumble-F@ck through a procedure that they had little experience with exacting excruciating pain on a patient who in my view was not properly equipped to advocate for themselves in denying the procedure or having access to the more experienced physician's judgement. This type of thing is par for the course and much worse.

And what I hear from the physicians on this board towards their patient populations seems little different than Lou Dobbs talking about immigrants. It's that bad in my opinion.

By the way, the patient did not have meningitis.

 

[Yourmother]

We can probably all agree that medical schools encourage shadowing because it provides an applicant with some concept of practice. They figure that this is an easy method for kids to get some sort of grasp and least one lecture from the docs about the woes of the business.

I agree, it is not very effective. Unfortunately, I suspect that within a couple of years schools will have some ridiculas "shadowing" certification program. Oh well, I guess it is a matter of finding the right person to "shadow".

~Mofo

 

[kami333]

Unfortunately, I suspect that within a couple of years schools will have some ridiculas "shadowing" certification program.

My undergrad college did have such a program. Run by the premed advising, it was 2-6hrs a week for the school year (I think you needed to get 60hrs or something) and at the end they gave you a certificate of completion, and I think it was required to be able to go through committee. I think the med school acceptance rate going through committee was 90%+, but of course they had all sorts of ridiculous requirements so only the most dedicated and likely candidates passed, and the college advertise they have over 90% acceptance to medical school (I fell for the advertising).

 

[AKN]

I shadowed a primary care physician for about 30 hours and enjoyed it immensely. He answered any question I had (which were many). He was about my age so we were able to talk about a variety of things between patients (from parenting to flooring). He didn't treat me as a nuisance; he treated me as his student. I also acted as an assistant sometimes -- fetching samples or delivering prescriptions to patients.

When a boy or man was going to need to drop their drawers, he left me with the nurse. She would take me in with the patients, too. They also explained coding, how they follow-up with labs, etc. It was invaluable to me wanting to be a doctor. I was very lucky to find the perfect person to shadow.

I got far more information about being a doctor from shadowing than I do from volunteering at the ER.

 

[shaggybill]

I'm lucky in that I work in the ER and kinda-sorta knew the doctor I am now shadowing. When I go into a patients room with him, he introduces himself, tells the patient that I'll be working with him that night, and carries on without missing a beat. So far, all of the patients give a nod and smile, and most ignore me for the rest of the visit. The chatty ones will talk to me occasionally, but most of the time we are in and out so fast I don't have time to chat with them. It probably helps that I'm in scrubs and have a hospital ID badge. After the first night I shadowed him, the doctor offered to write an LOR for me when it came time to apply, and that I could shadow him anytime he's on the schedule.

 

[Drogba]

...not a victory march, it's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah... - - - Rufus Wainwright

Hey! Hallelujah was written by Leonard Cohen. You could atleast attribute it to Jeff Buckley who sings the most beautiful cover of it...

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsa_xWLOghg[/YOUTUBE]

/threadhijack

 

[DrMidlife]

Hey! Hallelujah was written by Leonard Cohen. You could atleast attribute it to Jeff Buckley who sings the most beautiful cover of it...

I knew it wasn't kd lang (whose cover is stunning), so I looked it up and one of the random lyric pages attributed it to Wainwright. Should've known better. Thanks for the correction.

/unthreadjack

 

[Asclepion75]

How important is the shadowing? I really feel like I"m wasting my time and I don't know what to do.

Initially I felt the same way about shadowing but changed my outlook after a series of events. Here goes, I'm 32 y/o EMT-B, LPN, and RN with 12 years clinical experience and 14 years military. Worked just in just about every setting to include field, ER, Level 1 Trauma, ICU, outpatient clinics, and even pediatric homecare. So I kinda devalued shadowing based on having so much clinical experience.

However, when it came time to apply for the 07 year I couldn't secure a LOR from a DO although I had one as my PCP. So I had to withdraw my application and wait a year. This time around, I shadowed two different DO's and it was well worth it. Because my role was different in the clinical setting, I was able to appreciate things from a physician's perspective instead of waiting for orders to be executed. I was also able to establish a more intimate relationship with the physicians so when time for LOR's came around they wrote, in good conscious, stellar LOR's. One of the physicians, the one I had trouble getting a letter from the first go around, would quiz me and explain things to me in the presence of his patients in an apprentice to master kind of relationship.

So in the final analysis, I highly recommend shadowing even if you are a crusty old vet!

 

[njbmd]

So I've been shadowing a surgeon for the past 2 weeks, and I have about 20 hours under my belt. Every doctor I've come across while I was shadowing told me that shadowing was entirely pointless-- one even said I wasn't going to "see anything you can't see on the Discovery Health Channel." I was going to ask for a letter of recommendation from the doctor I'm shadowing, but it feels stupid to do so, especially when he doesn't know anything about me and all I've been doing is following him around-- which sometimes, I don't even do, because when he doesn't feel like dealing with me, he tells me to go find a med student.

How important is the shadowing? I really feel like I"m wasting my time and I don't know what to do.

I looked at a random allopathic medical school website just to see what was there for perspective students. I didn't use the websites of my two medical schools for which I do admissions work because I know what's there.

The website said this, "Secure a physician mentor. Contact your physician, or physicians who practice in the medical career areas that interest you most." Now if you can secure a physic an mentor and have a good relationship without shadowing then I guess shadowing is a "pointless" waste of your time.

If your mentor doesn't "know anything about you", why not take a copy of your CV and personal statement with you so that they can learn a bit about you? Why not include a list of the schools that interest you with you? Why not include a list of objectives for your visit/experience and discuss them with your physician mentor? I have pre-med students shadowing me and I am quite willing to do fulfill their needs but if you expect to just follow me around and stand around, you won't get a good experience. If you expect me to quiz you on your life, you won't get a good experience. If you are proactive about what you want and what you expect from your visit, you needs will likely be fulfilled. After all, this is your visit and your experience. I know what I do every day and how fulfilling my job is.

I also know what I expect of an applicant and what I consider is a complete and competitive application. When I put your application (regardless of undergraduate GPA and MCAT) next to an applicant who has made every part of their application complete and competitive, you may come up short if you don't have what we stated as Pre-reqs (shadowing/being mentored by a physician is a pre-req for my schools).

For any experience, shadowing or otherwise, you will get out of it what you put into it. If you go into any physician contact with the attitude that you are wasting your time or the physician's time, then that is what you will do. A better course would be to find something that doesn't waste your time or isn't "pointless" for you and get it done. The idea behind "shadowing" or "being mentored by a physician" is not to make you "jump through a hoop" but for you to have a good idea (not Grey's Anatomy or ER) of what the daily life of a physician entails. If you have other routes of obtaining this info/experience, then use them. It's your application, make it as competitive as possible.

 

[NewAndImproved]

How important is the shadowing? I really feel like I"m wasting my time and I don't know what to do.

I tried to secure a shadowing position from several different docs. All attempts were unsuccessful and I ultimately quit looking. As a result, I neither have shadowing experience nor MD letters of recommendation. This apparent shortcoming has not prevented me from accruing several acceptances (MD & DO). As long as you have some patient contact experiences and can present yourself as someone who knows what docs do during the course of the day, I'm sure you'll be fine. One exception to this statement would be schools that explicitly require shadowing experience as mentioned earlier in this thread. The 20 hours you've already got, however, would likely meet this standard.

 

[Yourmother]

I looked at a random allopathic medical school website just to see what was there for perspective students. I didn't use the websites of my two medical schools for which I do admissions work because I know what's there.

The website said this, "Secure a physician mentor. Contact your physician, or physicians who practice in the medical career areas that interest you most." Now if you can secure a physic an mentor and have a good relationship without shadowing then I guess shadowing is a "pointless" waste of your time.

If your mentor doesn't "know anything about you", why not take a copy of your CV and personal statement with you so that they can learn a bit about you? Why not include a list of the schools that interest you with you? Why not include a list of objectives for your visit/experience and discuss them with your physician mentor? I have pre-med students shadowing me and I am quite willing to do fulfill their needs but if you expect to just follow me around and stand around, you won't get a good experience. If you expect me to quiz you on your life, you won't get a good experience. If you are proactive about what you want and what you expect from your visit, you needs will likely be fulfilled. After all, this is your visit and your experience. I know what I do every day and how fulfilling my job is.

I also know what I expect of an applicant and what I consider is a complete and competitive application. When I put your application (regardless of undergraduate GPA and MCAT) next to an applicant who has made every part of their application complete and competitive, you may come up short if you don't have what we stated as Pre-reqs (shadowing/being mentored by a physician is a pre-req for my schools).

For any experience, shadowing or otherwise, you will get out of it what you put into it. If you go into any physician contact with the attitude that you are wasting your time or the physician's time, then that is what you will do. A better course would be to find something that doesn't waste your time or isn't "pointless" for you and get it done. The idea behind "shadowing" or "being mentored by a physician" is not to make you "jump through a hoop" but for you to have a good idea (not Grey's Anatomy or ER) of what the daily life of a physician entails. If you have other routes of obtaining this info/experience, then use them. It's your application, make it as competitive as possible.

I always learn so much from your posts. I appreaciate the time, energy and wisdom you impart on these forums. Your posts are a refreshing read. I hope one day I can do the same.

Please continue, it is well noticed and duly noted by many.

 

[emttim]

I tried to secure a shadowing position from several different docs. All attempts were unsuccessful and I ultimately quit looking. As a result, I neither have shadowing experience nor MD letters of recommendation. This apparent shortcoming has not prevented me from accruing several acceptances (MD & DO). As long as you have some patient contact experiences and can present yourself as someone who knows what docs do during the course of the day, I'm sure you'll be fine. One exception to this statement would be schools that explicitly require shadowing experience as mentioned earlier in this thread. The 20 hours you've already got, however, would likely meet this standard.

If you don't mind me asking, which MD schools have you received acceptance offers from? I'm in a similar situation, I've tried to shadow about half a dozen different doctors and they always agree and agree then dissapear when I ask them when I can start shadowing, so I quit looking myself...don't necessarily think I'm missing out on that much either considering from the looks of it, most shadowing experiences are pointless, and I'll be working alongside (not just watching) physicians anyway when I do my clinical rotations during paramedic school.

 

[montessori2md]

There are few clinical experiences for people w/o clinical experience that are certain to be useful, if you ask me.

I think as far as shadowing goes, one should start w/ an MD/DO, or even a midlevel, you are comfortable with, but whose work environment is different from yours.

I don't think shadowing is considered all that interesting to MD adcoms, but what do I know?

I was told by a couple of med students that shadowing opps are a piece of cake once you have an acceptance in hand, as is the MD won't think it's a waste of time, once it's been decided you will indeed someday use the info you'll gather.

Some hospitals require shadows to go through the same app process as their volunteers, as well as the initial training on privacy policies, etc.

If you're 18 (or 38) and feel ******ed as a volunteer/shadow and it's making you a wallflower, keep on keepin' on, but try to figure out what about the situation made you uncomfortable. There are an awful lot of allo posts whining about how stupid and worthless they feel on the floor, it would be best to figure out how not to become one of them.

For myself, I think working with geriatric pts is great, because they tend to be talkers, and experienced w/ the stupidities of hospitals/medical care, and all to happy to tell you exactly what they think about everything from catheters to the food to the steady stream of MDs walking in their door (even while MD is in the room). Staff are often happy to have someone to deflect the attention away from themselves : )

Does anyone see any value to spending some time with folks who aren't docs (I'm thinking those who run the fiscal aspect, billing, hospital administration)?

For those of you who shadowed surgeons, did you go into surgeries as well?

 

[futuredrcrawfor]

I have LOVED my shadowing experiences so far!!! I have done 2 days with a general family physician which is interesting but a lot of redundancy... but the exciting part has been what I am doing this week and next- Pediatric Oncology/Hematology

Yesterday I spent time with a hematologist but also saw a couple ALL patients. The physician drew pictures of what was going on, explained everything, quized me on my limited pre-med knowledge on advanced physiology, and then after a day with patients wrote down all the diseases I had seen so i could research it on one of the hospital subscription websites for a couple hours

Today- I did Neuro-oncology and shadowed both a PNP and a MD-PhD... both were amazing and taught me a LOT! There is so much to learn and of course I can not figure it all out but they let me participate in physical exam (listen to breath sounds, watching eye movements, balance, etc)... they also took time to explain MRI reading and I went to a conference with them

Next week I will spend an afternoon in Hemophilia lab, work 1-2 more days in clinic for different diseases, and spend 1-2 days in the inpatient unit...

I had a longshot connection with one of the doctors (she was a fellow when we started the approval process 6 months ago)... and then she has hooked me up with all specialist since she is in lab most of the time. My time in the lab will be with her and she is also taking me to dinner so I can "pick her brain"

so in my opinion shadowing is integral- you see the lifestyle and can learn a lot if you pay attention and you are with good physicians. I happen to be at the Children's Hospital under Emory so usually the physician I am with have experience with students are are very informative!

Also- I will be doing some general pediatrics later this month and next to see that dynamic of care as well

 

[brianmartin]

With the average 20 year old it must be a lot like babysitting, and tedious for all involved.

I get very uncomfortable with the idea of a 20 year old from the pre-allo crowd in the examination room, bored and missing their ipod, not interacting with the patient, waiting to be told what to do.

Furthermore I have the cajones to not be insulted if I get confused for a nurse. Try that one on a female 20 year old premed...

Drmidlife, you seem to have an "issue" with young pre-med students...not very subtle

 

[sciencebird]

I've shadowed two doctors, a nurse, and a PA at a clinic I attended as a patient. I was lucky that the PA I saw one day was also applying to med school, so it was easy to ask if I could shadow her. I've found that the easiest in is asking one's own doctor, particularly for non-traditionals who see doctors not associated with a school.

Everyone I've shadowed tells the patient I'm a student and asks if I can stay. Almost every patient says yes. Some say no, so I don't think you should feel like you are intruding by shadowing. I interact with the patients minimally, but the PA will often show me interesting things and introduce me. The patients don't seem to mind me looking at their warts, ears, etc.. I've spent about 50 hours shadowing, and I definitely keep seeing new things, and also the doctors let their guard down around you as they become familiar with you, so you get to see their honest frustrations.

It would be terrific to be allowed to take histories and to handle patients, but for those of us outside of the health profession currently in other jobs, we can't, so shadowing is very helpful.

The first doctor I shadowed was a bit off-putting, but the right person can make shadowing very valuable. Particularly if the person has strengths that you wish to develop, for example, the PA I shadow is very personable, and I tend to be a little aloof.

 

[Ebete]

I worked in the ER for 3 years as a unit clerk (entering orders/diagnosis/meds...) I learned soooo much, and got payed for it! A lot more hands on than shadowing and because you are in such a fast passed environment the chances of a great doc taking under their wings is great.

 

[TarHeelEMT]

I had a great experience shadowing. My medical director lets me come to the ER and tag along with her residents as often as I want. It's gotten to the point where I bring my stethoscope and am basically treated like a student learning under them - I listen to interesting heart murmurs and lung sounds, and they help me interpret EKGs from the patients. It's great.