shorter MSTP programs / degrees?

[pioneer22]

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Hi,

Are there any historically shorter MSTP programs at either:
1) institutions (ie. WashU MSTP is on average, shorter than Harvard MSTP)?
2) degree program (ie. Genomics is shorter than Neuroscience)?


Thanks

 

[pioneer22]

bump?

 

[Electricity]

Yes to (a), e.g. some programs are known to be longer while others are known to be shorter on average. You can often find this info by searching online. A good question to ask at interviews is the average time to graduation. When I was interviewing, I know that Pitt and Columbia had shorter times to graduation while UCSF, Harvard, and UCSD were longer. This might have changed. I think you could expect about a 0.5 year average difference between the extremes programs, the problem being that it can be PD-dependent and that can change. There could also be self-selection biases between schools explaining some of the variability.

Yes also to (b) I would BET, at least at my school, but it's hard to know for sure and this is much more mentor-dependent. An example is that engineering degrees often take longer. I wouldn't count too much on this until you get to the school and can evaluate it.

Overall the MSTP is very long anyway and this is a reasonable factor to focus on (and I did so) but probably not the most important, to me research prowess and location are still much more important.

 

[Gorilla-san]

Was talking to the director from WashU and he said something along the line of 7.9 years

 

[Neuronix]

It's hard to get an apples to apples comparison on this. Graduation times have been rising gradually for years. The national average is somewhere around 8 years. Individual programs often don't report their own data. What you really want to know is the average graduation time for graduates over the last 5 years. Good luck finding that for many programs. Many programs report or average in old times to graduation, which will make their time seem artificially lower.

Of course at the rate things are increasing, the national or program average may be more like 8.5 years when you graduate... You have to be personally ready for that possibility.

 

[daolso]

The program I am at (Indiana/Purdue) also reports an average time to graduation of 7.8ish years. The program leadership (who are fantastic) definitely play a big role, as does lab selection.

I do think engineering tends to take longer in general, although from the current MD/PhDs I know in the BME program here I can only think of two have taken longer than 4 years for the PhD. At least one had significant extenuating circumstances. So our average would likely still be around the same.

Departments usually have different PhD requirements (university-specific, obviously). For example, I have been told the Microbiology department here requires one semester of TAing. For that reason some MD/PhDs pick a different department, even if they are doing micro research.

 

[Neuronix]

Cooltrumpet is right on about this. There are a number of departmental factors that can influence graduation time as well. I wrote a blog entry about it here:

http://www.neuronix.org/2011/09/meeting-about-return-this-past-week-i.html

 

[smithers12]

a good question to demystify this question during interviews is to ask what specific mechanisms are in place to shorten the time to graduation (if any). for instance many institutions are moving towards shortened or even 1 year of preclinicals. having credits earned in medical school count towards graduate school requirements and lab rotations completed before graduate school starts are other ways this is achieved.

 

[eteshoe]

(Un)fortunately one has to be ready to commit 8-10 yrs to this path at this point (plus what the others have mentioned) which can be daunting.

 

[JoaoMoutinho]

If that is the case, when I see schools that claim to have an average that is pretty far below 8 years, should I take it with a pretty large grain of salt then? I am interviewing this week at UT Houston, and they claim to have an average time to graduation of 7.3 years.

Also, @Neuronix I've read some of your blog posts on this and on USMLE score inflation (they were super helpful by the way!) and was wondering: what are your thoughts on the different schools that have the option to do 1.5 years of medical school before starting your PhD or those that have you do MS1-MS3 before starting? Does that actually make any difference in your opinion?

 

[chuck84]

At our institution, the biggest factor is your PI. If they're good with you being done in 3-3.5 years, then it'll be 7 years. Generally 7-9 years for OHSU.

 

[JoaoMoutinho]

At our institution, the biggest factor is your PI. If they're good with you being done in 3-3.5 years, then it'll be 7 years. Generally 7-9 years for OHSU.

That makes a lot of sense, thanks! I know that it can be a little bit different for everyone, but I've been applying to programs with the idea that I would spend about 8 years in a program even if the school says that I could be done sooner.

 

[Neuronix]

If that is the case, when I see schools that claim to have an average that is pretty far below 8 years, should I take it with a pretty large grain of salt then? I am interviewing this week at UT Houston, and they claim to have an average time to graduation of 7.3 years.

I would, but it could be true. It's the kind of thing you could ask about in more detail after you have an acceptance in hand such as at a second look visit.

Also, @Neuronix I've read some of your blog posts on this and on USMLE score inflation (they were super helpful by the way!) and was wondering: what are your thoughts on the different schools that have the option to do 1.5 years of medical school before starting your PhD or those that have you do MS1-MS3 before starting? Does that actually make any difference in your opinion?

It's my opinion that you should make the PhD as relevant to your future clinical specialty as possible. The more time you spend in clinic before the PhD, the better chances you have to do this.

Going through all of MS3 before the PhD seems like a good idea also because you don't have to come back to super competitive graded clerkships after 4 years out of clinics. I don't know what the scheduling/logistic issues for MS4/electives/residency applications look like in such an environment.

 

[JoaoMoutinho]

I don't know what the scheduling/logistic issues for MS4/electives/residency applications look like in such an environment.

I'll make sure to ask about how some of those logistics for MS4, etc. work out when I go there for an interview.

It's my opinion that you should make the PhD as relevant to your future clinical specialty as possible. The more time you spend in clinic before the PhD, the better chances you have to do this.

Going through all of MS3 before the PhD seems like a good idea also because you don't have to come back to super competitive graded clerkships after 4 years out of clinics.

This might be a really dumb question, but why are there only a few schools that give you that option then? I agree with you that those seem like really great advantages, but wouldn't more schools have adopted that kind of a setup to make it easier for students to do well in their clerkships? I've seen a handful that let you do a half a day per week of clinical work during your PhD, but it seems that the majority of programs just kind of forget about the medical side of things while you're in graduate school.

 

[pioneer22]

I'll make sure to ask about how some of those logistics for MS4, etc. work out when I go there for an interview.




This might be a really dumb question, but why are there only a few schools that give you that option then? I agree with you that those seem like really great advantages, but wouldn't more schools have adopted that kind of a setup to make it easier for students to do well in their clerkships? I've seen a handful that let you do a half a day per week of clinical work during your PhD, but it seems that the majority of programs just kind of forget about the medical side of things while you're in graduate school.

I have heard that Vanderbilt and Duke MSTP's have preclinical and clinical years before the graduate work, so this is incorporating what you said to some degree.

 

[grizzlyblair]

I have heard that Vanderbilt and Duke MSTP's have preclinical and clinical years before the graduate work, so this is incorporating what you said to some degree.

I am at one of the above programs, and I think we greatly benefit from having the first clinical year done before the PhD because
(1) As mentioned, it makes your research more relevant to your future clinical work. I came in thinking one field, but after experiencing it clinically hated it and went in a completely different direction. Others have as well, while many students have their initial interests confirmed.
(2) It is not just the 4 years away-- and the forgetting of information-- that would make doing the clinical year after the PhD hard. It is an emotionally challenging year, and being able to go through it/commiserating with my friends who entered medical school with me is probably what kept me the most sane. I can't imagine going through that year with a cohort that I barely met.

Regarding logistics for MS4, the biggest challenge is scheduling a defense date and return to the medical school, though this is now so streamlined that it is not an issue. Generally students come back in time for 2 "warm-up" rotations (usually an outpatient rotation followed by an inpatient consult service) before doing their Sub-I. If you plan poorly, you may end up returning and having to do your Sub-I right away, which is not ideal and discouraged by the program. I would say 90+% of students make the above "ideal" schedule work.

 

[JoaoMoutinho]

I am at one of the above programs, and I think we greatly benefit from having the first clinical year done before the PhD because
(1) As mentioned, it makes your research more relevant to your future clinical work. I came in thinking one field, but after experiencing it clinically hated it and went in a completely different direction. Others have as well, while many students have their initial interests confirmed.
(2) It is not just the 4 years away-- and the forgetting of information-- that would make doing the clinical year after the PhD hard. It is an emotionally challenging year, and being able to go through it/commiserating with my friends who entered medical school with me is probably what kept me the most sane. I can't imagine going through that year with a cohort that I barely met.

Regarding logistics for MS4, the biggest challenge is scheduling a defense date and return to the medical school, though this is now so streamlined that it is not an issue. Generally students come back in time for 2 "warm-up" rotations (usually an outpatient rotation followed by an inpatient consult service) before doing their Sub-I. If you plan poorly, you may end up returning and having to do your Sub-I right away, which is not ideal and discouraged by the program. I would say 90+% of students make the above "ideal" schedule work.

That clarifies things a lot for me. Thank you!

 

[MSTPlease]

I don't know what the scheduling/logistic issues for MS4/electives/residency applications look like in such an environment.

I don't know the details for it either, but I know it's done. A former MD classmate did MD-->MD/PhD and started his PhD after MS3.

 

[MSTPlease]

(2) It is not just the 4 years away-- and the forgetting of information-- that would make doing the clinical year after the PhD hard. It is an emotionally challenging year, and being able to go through it/commiserating with my friends who entered medical school with me is probably what kept me the most sane. I can't imagine going through that year with a cohort that I barely met.

I'm only ~1/3 of the way through, but I know that several of us MSTPs have commented to each other about how:

a)having gone through the process getting that PhD, the schedule of MS3 doesn't feel that bad and the traditional MS3s seem to complain a lot about the hours and food - I'm amazed at how frequently the residents freak out about making sure I've had time to get lunch - even on gyn surgery (haven't done gen surg yet) or making sure that they dismissed me before X time (what time that is definitely varies a lot from specialty to specialty). Every PhD student knows that feeling of simply being too busy to get lunch or having too many things to take care of/not go as planned such that you end up staying later and later.

b)major leg up on EBM projects whether it be presenting a paper informally to the team, formal powerpoint presentations to preceptors, or formal writeups with references to literature. One of my new classmates was talking during the first rotation about how she had literally never done a presentation of academic research and was very stressed out about it. Between journal clubs, seminars, and conferences I can't even count how many times I've presented either my own work or others'

c)being able to better connect with the residents - whether it's because they are literally your former classmates, they're friends with your former classmates, or it's just the fact that you're closer in age - I've felt so far that I've gelled better with the residents than my new classmates and grading in MS3 can be so subjective that being a student the residents like - for whatever reason - is an advantage

d)people are impressed by you - you hear all this talk about bottom of the totem pole and how useless and dumb MS3s are and yet pretty much everyone I've met makes a comment about how smart or impressive I must be given that I'm an MD/PhD student. It always comes up because either they notice my ID says I'm an MD/PhD student, they wonder why the consult resident from some other service knows who I am (because they're a former classmate) or - and do this very sparingly - I use it as an excuse for not knowing something from the preclinical years by referencing the fact that it's been 4 or 5 years since that class.

 

[CerseiLannister]

Looks like there are pros and cons of each type of set up

 

[Neuronix]

This might be a really dumb question, but why are there only a few schools that give you that option then?

Most programs are too afraid that you'll quit the program after three years and graduate with an MD-only with three free years of med school tuition.

I agree with you that those seem like really great advantages, but wouldn't more schools have adopted that kind of a setup to make it easier for students to do well in their clerkships? I've seen a handful that let you do a half a day per week of clinical work during your PhD, but it seems that the majority of programs just kind of forget about the medical side of things while you're in graduate school.

A half day per week of clinical work during a PhD seems like a waste of time. It isn't enough to keep your memory sharp and it will interfere with your PhD. No matter what you do, you will forget about the medical side when you come back from graduate school.

Unlike MSTPlease's experience above, I found it very difficult to return to medical school after graduate school. The difference is that MS1-Ms3, and especially MS3, are very competitive. MS4 is a cakewalk. Internship is difficult for everyone. Doing MS1-MS3 to get your medical school credentials strong seems like a good idea to me. I've written repeatedly about how the MD/PhD does not seem to impress residency program directors and MD/PhDs run a real risk of not matching at all. Being on equal footing with your classmates as an MS3 to get good grades seems like another good idea to me. You could take your step 2 after MS3 before your PhD as well since this exam also has increasing importance for residency.