Should foreign students be admitted before American Students??

[ddsjymaeng]

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just do as u want and say as u want..Smarty pants
America is the best place for that too...

I truly hope that we don't end up in the same dental school nor we applied to the same dental school...jaypea

Last question...
were u grown up in areas where there were only whites?
no asians, blacks, or intenationals?

 

[ddsjymaeng]

u said patriotism....

the US selects smart people among international students, such as medical school, graduate school, dental school, pharmacy school, u name it!!!

U said patriotism....
if those intelligent people get educated from US and becomes a US citizen
who do u think will benefit?

- The US is gonna benefit...
so for the sake of your patriotism those intenationals u said who would live in the states will benefit your country, America....
so that is why US will give them citicizenship in the end.
and this is not a story of selecting thousands of internationals
but like 15-30 total a year....

U said they suck at English aight?...
well... I would agree that international might suck, but who are selected for medical and dental schools are not.
or else the school would not accept them...do u think they r that dumb?

 

[StudentDentist]

life sucks. get over it. There are a series of stupid, stupid arguments being made on each side. A series of conjectures. A series of unsupported/unsupportable claims. Series of downright stupidity.

And international students, please please use proper English. Don't forget all the "the" and "a/an" in your sentences. Antecedents, gerunds, ...etc.

 

[claydds]

wow...things sure escalated quickly. What relevance did the 4 plane comment have to international students getting into dental schools? Not trying to start a fight, just curious if I missed something

 

[xxxTheDonxxx]

People who wrote things like this need to shut the FU#k up!

And international students, please please use proper English. Don't forget all the "the" and "a/an" in your sentences. Antecedents, gerunds, ...etc.

You think our culture and language are far superior than other people's...you know they're trying to learn our language so support them...don't put them down. This is the kind of thinking that create all sort of violence. Let me remind you all that we are all immigrants except for the Native Americans. However, I do think we need to put American citizens first because we have our own healthcare problems that we need to take care off. 1 international student per school is more than enough.

 

[DDSY]

1 international student per school is more than enough.

If you look at the ADEA Official Guide, with the exception of Canada, there actually aren't that many international students. The schools that accept the most international students are NYU, UPenn, Howard (primarily from african countries). Most schools don't have international students.

True, preference should be given to US citizens. But that is already the case. Furthermore, it's extremely difficult for internationals to apply to go the United States. ie, they're moving away from family, different culture, financing their education, language problems, etc.

It's also a given that many internationals, if they decide to practice in the US, practice in underserved areas, even if they decide to specialize (this is true for medicine, and assumption is it's true for dentistry too). Reasons, among many others, include that people in middle/upper class neighborhoods don't relate to internationals as well (fragmented english, etc).

 

[ddsjymaeng]

👎

 

[jaypea65]

u said patriotism....

the US selects smart people among international students, such as medical school, graduate school, dental school, pharmacy school, u name it!!!

U said patriotism....
if those intelligent people get educated from US and becomes a US citizen
who do u think will benefit?

- The US is gonna benefit...
so for the sake of your patriotism those intenationals u said who would live in the states will benefit your country, America....
so that is why US will give them citicizenship in the end.
and this is not a story of selecting thousands of internationals
but like 15-30 total a year....

U said they suck at English aight?...
well... I would agree that international might suck, but who are selected for medical and dental schools are not.
or else the school would not accept them...do u think they r that dumb?

I don't think that your elevator is going to the top floor. You proved my point. I don't want foreign students benefitting my country when they become dentists. I want students that are already Americans to be able to benefit my country by allowing them to fulfill their American dream first. Absolutely nothing to do with race, bub. Do you know how frustrating it is for patients when they can't even understand what there doctor is saying. All I'm saying is if you do want to practice here, add some English dialect classes so that when you you tell your patient not to take his coumadin before his proceedure, he doesn't tell his wife that his doctor said "not to come again".

 

[ddsjymaeng]

that makes their patients annoying?
where did u get this info?
how are u so sure about this...hahaha?
I have never heard during my college or in my work that people could not understand what I am saying...
and I have American friends who have no problem with this, too.


I am not here to fight, but at least don't like your thought that all international dentists speak English so bad.
You seem to make fun of the people with English as their second language.

I'll end this argument anywayz...
gotta enjoy my life

good luck jaypea

 

[DDSY]

All I'm saying is if you do want to practice here, add some English dialect classes so that when you you tell your patient not to take his coumadin before his proceedure, he doesn't tell his wife that his doctor said "not to come again".

The problem is, it's true that having a full-fledge American as a dentist would enhance-doctor patient communication and thus enhance patient compliance/treatment outcome. But that is primarily true for middle/upper class neighborhoods. When it comes to non-minority healthcare professionals treating minority patients, there is significant degree of lost patient-doctor communication (it's not only english (or ebonics) but also health beliefs and other intangibles). Yes, relatively speaking we need dentists who are better able to communicate. . . but that is not as important as availability of dentists in underserved neigborhoods.

 

[mahme]

How about giving preferential treatment to younger people than older people (I understand you're 41?). I mean, younger people will have a longer career and help more people, oh and their hands won't shake as much when drilling.

Hey jaypea, why haven't you addressed this post yet? Why would taxpayers want to educate a 40+ year old if their opportunity for a career is already half over by the time he's done?

 

[prez_al]

why should american taxpayers have to pay for someone who is not paying taxes to get their education/training and then leave to practice somewhere else? it makes no sense to me, i'm sure there are some american applicants (who may or may not be minorities) on this forum who are applying a second time and i'm sure they are upset that their spot could be taken up by an international dental student

Where do I begin?? Gotta defend the foreigners and canucks now... lets see...

Schools are businesses

If given two applicants (A and B), A is the average applicant while B is an overqualified foreigner... B usually wins especially at a private school since they tend to brag about the diversity. Schools want the BEST applicants and so what if one or two foreigners take up spots given that they're qualified enough as long as they'll donate lots when they're in practice.

Foreigners don't have to use up government resources

Keep in mind that people from other countries CANNOT apply for any of the federal loans leaving more money for the American healthcare students. Secondly, any tuition discounts beyond first year at state schools do not apply to foreigners and therefore none of their education is subsidized by the state government.

Furthermore, the students coming from Canada are paying double than what they would be paying if they attended a Canadian dental school. I believe the only "real" issue is about Canadian and foreign graduates of medical and dental programs practicing in the states increasing competition for actual jobs in America (due to the cross-border agreements) as "that is where the money is at". If you directed your rant towards this direction then I would understand.

Lastly, how can you tell that a foreigner "stole" your seat at a given school? If your application is not outstanding enough, find ways to improve it and try again. Indirectly blaming foreigners for upping the competition belittles whatever accomplishments that earned them a seat at a given school.

 

[_veo_]

Lastly, how can you tell that a foreigner "stole" your seat at a given school? If your application is not outstanding enough; find ways to improve it and try again. Indirectly blaming foreigners for upping the competition belittles whatever accomplishments that earned them a seat at a given school.

exactly

 

[StudentDentist]

People who wrote things like this need to shut the FU#k up!


You think our culture and language are far superior than other people's...you know they're trying to learn our language so support them...don't put them down. This is the kind of thinking that create all sort of violence. Let me remind you all that we are all immigrants except for the Native Americans. However, I do think we need to put American citizens first because we have our own healthcare problems that we need to take care off. 1 international student per school is more than enough.

time for some ass whooping. gotta love the ..."you can't talk trash, but I'm gonna talk trash" mentality.

If you guys want to promote change, get on the admissions committee and do something about it. Until you're on there, you ain't got no saying that matters.

 

[jaypea65]

Hey jaypea, why haven't you addressed this post yet? Why would taxpayers want to educate a 40+ year old if their opportunity for a career is already half over by the time he's done?

Sorry, overlooked this post because I thought that you should already know that you can't discriminate on the basis of age,sex,race or religion. It has no relevence to the point of the discussion. The discussion is if we should admit foreign students(non-citizens) before American citizens. It has nothing to do with race,religion,sex or age. However, now that you ask....I don't plan on retiring until I am physically unable to work, so as long as I have good health, I will be working long past retirement age of most dentists. Thanks for asking though.

 

[jaypea65]

that makes their patients annoying?
where did u get this info?
how are u so sure about this...hahaha?
I have never heard during my college or in my work that people could not understand what I am saying...
and I have American friends who have no problem with this, too.


I am not here to fight, but at least don't like your thought that all international dentists speak English so bad.
You seem to make fun of the people with English as their second language.

I'll end this argument anywayz...
gotta enjoy my life

good luck jaypea

Not poking fun...just stating fact from personal experience working in the medical field hearing patients and staff complain that they can't understand what their doctor is saying.

 

[jaypea65]

wow...things sure escalated quickly. What relevance did the 4 plane comment have to international students getting into dental schools? Not trying to start a fight, just curious if I missed something

4 plane comment was intended to make another point on how we overlooked another case where foreigners were "trained in our country", only to come back and bite us in the as*. Had nothing to do with dental school. Why does the US always have to be the "soup Kitchen" for the world and then be **** on by foreign countries? Folks are getting a little sick of it. If you have watched the news lately, you know that a majority of Americans would like to put up a freaking fence between US and Mexico, so my posts should come as no suprise on how I feel. Tomorrow is election day and I will be voting accordingly.......🙂

 

[superchris147]

t

I am not here to fight, but at least don't like your thought that all international dentists speak English so bad.

most of you guys are making some good arguments and it is appreciated, however, the irony of this quote was just too hysterical to pass up

a couple things about my previous posts:
when i was talking about schools, i was talking about schools that recieve federal aid. so yes even though an international student isn't recieving financial aid from the government they are still using public resources. i think if you are going to be admitted to an american school that recieves federal aid then the seats should be filled up by americans period. while schools are businesses in the sense that they need to stay open they are part of our public educational system (schools that recieve federal/state aid). if you are an international and think this is unfair, then you have a couple options: become a dentist in your own country then come to america and start your advanced placement program to practice here in the US (there are more opportunities for internationls through this path than just applying as a normal applicant) and if your country has no dental school then work on your american citizenship and apply, it might take longer but its notl ike this option isn't available to you

i am not bitter that some international student stole my spot as i'm a 2nd year dental student at buffalo (in fact i would have preferred that an international took my spot to relive me of this misery). in fact, my views are those of an american citizen who would much rather see an american get a spot at an american dental school than an international due to various reasons aforementioned

for the person who mentioned admitted students who are older, i think you brought up a really good point. this goes along with the same idea. i think that preference should be given to younger students as well (i don't mean that you have to be 22 to apply) but i think its somewhat of a waste for significantly older people to be admitted. your education costs money and its an investment, if someone enters school at 50 and then only proceeds to work 15 or even 20 years after they graduate, the american public/tax payers are still losing out because someone younger might have worked twice as long and it would have been the same investment.

for those of you bringing up race, please cut it out, this argument potentially has no bearing on race and i tried to give an example proving that, ie: white canadians are also internationals

 

[trust068]

As long as you have kick ass numbers and good interview, you will get accpet. It doesnt matter where you came from. They dont give a shiit about your skin color either (of course you must able to communicate well)

in fact, i think most of schools has a very very limited seats aviliable for foreign students. (like 5-10%)

maybe you felt that those "foreign student" brings up the competition high, but that is the current trend of life, Global Competition.

 

[You]

Before? My vote is No. It should be same - no special treatment.

It appears to be not that many international people apply anyway. Some schools notoriously favor international over domestic purely behind doors for political reason and you pretty much don't have much of a saying. But I understand why they are doing it...I guess it is for a good cause - at least I hope so.

 

[AnonymousADCOM]

that makes their patients annoying?
where did u get this info?
how are u so sure about this...hahaha?
I have never heard during my college or in my work that people could not understand what I am saying...
and I have American friends who have no problem with this, too.


I am not here to fight, but at least don't like your thought that all international dentists speak English so bad.
You seem to make fun of the people with English as their second language.

I'll end this argument anywayz...
gotta enjoy my life

good luck jaypea

yah. geuh sekki deur mahl deut ji mah ruh.

Stop arguing with StudentDentist. He's been making jackass comments left and right. I agree communication is important, but America is diverse. Having foreign dentists serve in the US is a necessity since people keep immigrating to the US. But it's not like dental schools admit international students BEFORE American students anyway. American students are admitted way more than foreigners as you can see by the ratio of Americans to foreigners. THAT is what the thread is about, not whether international students are qualitified to serve in the US or not. So let's not be jackasses to each other.

 

[jaypea65]

yah. geuh sekki deur mahl deut ji mah ruh.

Stop arguing with StudentDentist. He's been making jackass comments left and right. I agree communication is important, but America is diverse. Having foreign dentists serve in the US is a necessity since people keep immigrating to the US. But it's not like dental schools admit international students BEFORE American students anyway. American students are admitted way more than foreigners as you can see by the ratio of Americans to foreigners. THAT is what the thread is about, not whether international students are qualitified to serve in the US or not. So let's not be jackasses to each other.

Thanks for your post-finally someone who gets the point of the thread. Why does race always take center stage in a heated discussion?

 

[jaypea65]

time for some ass whooping. gotta love the ..."you can't talk trash, but I'm gonna talk trash" mentality.

If you guys want to promote change, get on the admissions committee and do something about it. Until you're on there, you ain't got no saying that matters.

Not a bad idea...I would love to be on Adcom to hear people lie to me as to why I should give them right of passage to have doctor after their name, make alot of money, and become egotistical, self-centered a-hole. Might be a career change in the future for ol' jaypea65 hmmmmm............😀

 

[jaypea65]

i am not bitter that some international student stole my spot as i'm a 2nd year dental student at buffalo (in fact i would have preferred that an international took my spot to relive me of this misery).

Is it really that bad?

 

[ddsjymaeng]

get a life man
not in sdn

 

[xenomblack]

yah. geuh sekki deur mahl deut ji mah ruh.

Stop arguing with StudentDentist. He's been making jackass comments left and right. I agree communication is important, but America is diverse. Having foreign dentists serve in the US is a necessity since people keep immigrating to the US. But it's not like dental schools admit international students BEFORE American students anyway. American students are admitted way more than foreigners as you can see by the ratio of Americans to foreigners. THAT is what the thread is about, not whether international students are qualitified to serve in the US or not. So let's not be jackasses to each other.

phew..
thank you
somebody need to stop this
international v.s. u.s. student thread..

it's the skill and result that matters the most as a dentist, not where your origins are.

i don't understand why people get heated so much about that 1-3 spots in each dental schools. Many state schools have average entering GPA (in-state) around 3.4~3.5.. so if you cannot keep up with the competition, you shouldn't get admitted at all no matter you are an international or u.s. citizen.
So if an international student got that 1-3 spot above the competition, don't you think there is something to admire about his effort, and hopefully learn some good from him/her?


And once in a dental school, international students go through the same hell (if not more due to their english), so help them out.. not question their dreams.

 

[jaypea65]

get a life man
not in sdn

likewise jack

 

[armorshell]

, foreigners aren't "stealing" american spots, the schools are giving spots to them because they are more qualified. Private dental schools are businesses and have no "duty" to american students.

For more info read this

 

[superchris147]

i am not bitter that some international student stole my spot as i'm a 2nd year dental student at buffalo (in fact i would have preferred that an international took my spot to relive me of this misery).

Is it really that bad?

naw its not that bad, but it can really pile up on you sometimes

 

[xenomblack]

, foreigners aren't "stealing" american spots, the schools are giving spots to them because they are more qualified. Private dental schools are businesses and have no "duty" to american students.

For more info read this

LMAO

wow

 

[jaypea65]

LMAO

wow

Do you really want to get me started on immigrants and our jobs? I thought not.........save it for another thread

 

[AnonymousADCOM]

"John Kerry goes: 'If I'm elected to the presidency of the United States of America, I'm gonna see to it that we stop outsourcing our jobs. We are losing good American jobs to other countries, like India.' ...but it makes sense. We're just better at it. And it's way cheaper to pay us. 'Here's a sandwich.' 'Oh, tenk you.'"

, foreigners aren't "stealing" american spots, the schools are giving spots to them because they are more qualified. Private dental schools are businesses and have no "duty" to american students.

For more info read this

 

[laee3]

well what about people like me? I am not a citizen, but I have lived in this country for 6 years now since 8th grade. My dad has a business here so my staying here is legal, hell in fact I can claim residency. However, when I turn 21 I have to get a student visa(F-1)... it sucks that I have less chance to getting into dental school. It's hard as it is now.. and it will be harder for me since I'm not a citizen...😡

 

[ddsjymaeng]

I got 7 interviews so far as an F-1 status...
U will be fine

 

[laee3]

haha i assume you're a Korean, since you have picture of Park ji-sung... anyways, what was your stat??

 

[delta121]

I'm going to say this, there are many developing countries that are in need of dentists, and I think American schools are generous enough to allow some to train at their schools. Although international students pay significantly more in tuition, they are happy enough to study there. Each school has its designated amount of intl students, and ppl are going to have to accept it. If you're not up to their selection standards, well that means that you are not fit to go through dds training. Your gpa and dat scores have to be competitive enough to convince the admissions committee that you are smart enough to go through their training. If you not, in real life situations, you can get people killed.

If ppl are unhappy with the selection criteria and can't get in, then apply to canadian schools.

 

[Shunwei]

Do you really want to get me started on immigrants and our jobs? I thought not.........save it for another thread

Actually, I agree with the OP entirely. In fact, admitting foreign students and relying on foreign-trained personnel is precisely what is destroying American biomedical research, and the primary reason why the pay and working conditions for scientists are dirt poor at the moment (and bound to get much worse, in my opinion, very soon with no end in sight). These foreign-trained folks are NOT more competent than their American counterparts; rather, because they often simply work for a H1B visa, or just for the chance of permanent residence here (especially from mainland China and India), they are receptive to accepting much lower wages and exploitive conditions. This is the one of the primary reasons I am switching careers, and I sincerely hope that Dentistry: 1) keep strictly regulating the number of graduates that come out each year, and 2) erect a continuous barrier to keep foreigners out. I am all for diversity, but I think it should be fixed at a ratio favoring American students.

So before any of you condemn the OP for bigotry, there is a lot more insider information than any of you realize.

 

[jigabodo]

As a international student, I can assure the OP that if somebody doesn't get in, its probably not because an internatioal kid is taking up his/her spot.

I go to UC Davis, which consists of 1.6% of international students. That being said, I am absolutely positive that the number of international denal applicants are probably even less, why?

1. The pool of dental applicants also consists of those from CC and State school, which are not allowed to issue I-20 and therefore have no international students.

2. Some d-schools dont take international students (asdoh, UCLA etc)

3. Most d-schools require transciprt from US/Canadian Universities, so only the international applicants that went to schools in US are considered pretty much.

4. Even if they do get in and end up with DDS, they cannot practice in their own country, unlike PhD and Masters, which leave them less incentives to apply to US dental schools.

5. They have no state schools to fall back on, hence they must be more competitive to be considered acceptance.

6. Financing d-school is going to be extremely dificult for them, because their tuition is general higher, (I alreadypay 8000 a quarter in UCD, whereas residents pay 3000) and also because they cannot take out loans by themselves.

That being said, out of 10,000+ d-school applicants last year, there were probably less than 100 international students...and out of those, how many do you think are really "competitive"? Therefore, do you REALLY think accepting international students would have that much of an impact?

 

[phremius]

no actually....I am a very tolerant person, not a biget, or racist, however I feel that we should take care of our own tax paying citizens first. Why should an American not be afforded the opportunity to further their education before a foreigner and visa versa overseas? It is I, the American taxpayer that helps to fund higher education. Shouldn't we have first dibs?

You know who they should allow into dental school first? All those that have a commanding grasp of the language, then we can let those that would spell B-I-G-O-T as "biget" or VICE VERSA "visa versa" (Seriously... how did that verbal section of the DAT go for you?) in. So once every applicant who can speak their native language well is accepted, then let's open up the remaining spots. 😀

And as for your argument, why should the school let someone who is less qualified in? Oh and by the way, there are such things as private schools, where *gasp*, your grandiose tax-paying ways don't mean squat.

 

[335xi]

terrible terrible thread👎

to the op: you knew you were gonna bring on this kind of mess here.
i understand that you have your right to say whatever you think but
what was your intention in the first place?

it's just sad...

 

[335xi]

oh and ...

"And international students, please please use proper English. Don't forget all the "the" and "a/an" in your sentences. Antecedents, gerunds, ...etc."

you gotta be kiddin me.👎

 

[hopefulmed]

no actually....I am a very tolerant person, not a biget, or racist, however I feel that we should take care of our own tax paying citizens first. Why should an American not be afforded the opportunity to further their education before a foreigner and visa versa overseas? It is I, the American taxpayer that helps to fund higher education. Shouldn't we have first dibs?

Hi jaypea65,

In case you haven't noticed, seats are in fact reserved for American (citizens and permanent residents) at most graduate schools. And if you don't know that permanent residents are, they're tax payers too. Foreign students are rarely accepted, and when they are accepted, their tuition is significantly higher than both instate and out of state students (this is also true for undergraduate programs). Additionally, these students are most likely going to be practicing in the US (considering the salary) which in turn will is a plus on from a public health perspective. Finally, I would advise you to look up "brain drain" and the US and then see if you can re-evaluate your opinion on what's "fair". In any case, I hope I've helped you to be a little bit less ignorant today.

 

[oreosandsake]

bad.

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

Refrain from making attack to each other please. You can make your point across without verbally abusive. DP

 

[Sprgrover]

Agreed. Please keep the discussion on topic and professional.

 

[VilleDent]

Just to try and contribute to this already horrible topic, but seriously, let's talk this thing through. "John Thompson" from Kansas has a 3.1 GPA and 17 DAT, while "Mohammed McLovin" from foreign country X has a 3.8 GPA and a 23 DAT. Realistically, if you were on an admissions board, who would you want to represent your professional institution?

I'm a proud citizen of the US, but I do believe that when it comes to competition like this, you have to go with statistics. McLovin is the better candidate to excel at dental school based on the admissions test that everyone takes to determine Y is more capable than Z. Not that John Thompson couldn't cut it, but if I had my choice, I have to go with the better candidate, regardless of nationality, color, background, etc. Obviously, there's millions of variables in this scenario, but the main point is the best student should win.

And if I didn't put a comma in the right place, don't make fun of me please. It's a bit tacky.

That's just me.

 

[jigabodo]

Another thing I would like to add is unlike US/Canada, students in most other nations in the world (namely Europe and Asia) begin professional schools right after highschool, and this again would also cause the number of international applicants to decrease as well - in essence, the international applicants are only limited to those foreigners that went to universities in US.

I am not saying that those students from other countries will not apply, but even if they do, they will most likely try to apply right after highschool...which gives them virtually no chance at all.

 

[pmantz]

There usually is a reason threads DIE


Hey guys lets complain about Stufffff!!!!!!!!!!

 

[jaypea65]

Hi jaypea65,

In case you haven't noticed, seats are in fact reserved for American (citizens and permanent residents) at most graduate schools. And if you don't know that permanent residents are, they're tax payers too. Foreign students are rarely accepted, and when they are accepted, their tuition is significantly higher than both instate and out of state students (this is also true for undergraduate programs). Additionally, these students are most likely going to be practicing in the US (considering the salary) which in turn will is a plus on from a public health perspective. Finally, I would advise you to look up "brain drain" and the US and then see if you can re-evaluate your opinion on what's "fair". In any case, I hope I've helped you to be a little bit less ignorant today.

Don't you think that foreign students that decide to stay permanently in the developed world create a "brain drain" on their home countries?

 

[335xi]

Don't you think that foreign students that decide to stay permanently in the developed world create a "brain drain" on their home countries?

now you are concerned with the well-being of other countries?
perhaps you should be in politics...