Should I disclose my IA to medical schools if it doesn't appear on my transcript?

[c1881813]

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Hi everyone, I'm having a lot of trouble with a decision, and it's made me lose a lot of sleep which has really taken a toll on my health.

I got sent to the office of student conduct for suspicions of cheating on my organic chemistry final. I went to the office and admitted to cheating, as I did indeed copy a synthesis problem off of my friend's test. I was placed on conduct probation (not academic probation), and got half score on the exam which left me with a C in the class.

My questions is, if there is no IA or X on my transcript, should I still report it? I ordered my transcript, and the only thing on it is the C that I received, along with the A that I got the following semester when I retook the class with a different teacher. If it's not on my transcript, should I still report it?

Obviously the "adcoms" answer would be "of course", but I'm talking about a practical standpoint. It is best to be honest and ethical since we are talking about medicine, and I think I'll just end up reporting it because it's the honest thing to do. What do y'all think? Any advice would be appreciated.

Also, my school does not have a committee letter, and none of my letter writers know about the incident.

 

[machete fred]

From AMCAS 2016:

Were you ever the recipient of any institutional action by any college or medical school for unacceptable academic performance or conduct violation, even though such action may not have interrupted your enrollment or required you to withdraw? You must answer "Yes" even if the action does not appear on or has been deleted or expunged from your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition.

 

[c1881813]

I appreciate the response. I understand that AMCAS would want me to report it, but I'm asking if I should from a practical standpoint

 

[machete fred]

Would you lie about an EC that you didn't participate in even if you think that med schools wouldn't follow up on whether you did it or not? I'm not trying to sound like a dick, but purposefully lying on the primary application is a terrible idea. So yes, from a practical standpoint, you should report it.

 

[Catalystik]

Are you assuming that your final school-to-school official transcript, universally required by every US med school prior to matriculation, will be the same as the one they've released to you?

 

[CL21]

From an ethical standpoint, I would report it. But practically, if there is nothing on your transcript then I guess you don't.

 

[KungFuPanda123]

It's going to suck, but yes, I would disclose it if I were you. Imagine just having that skeleton in your closet for all your years in medical school (and possibly beyond), where if someone were to find out, you could get kicked out of your program. I'd rather have peace of mind and get into a less-than-ideal school or have to work hard for a few more years before applying in order to show that the IA is something from the distant past.

 

[piii]

If you get a committee letter, it will probably be mentioned. Disregarding morality, you have two worst case scenarios:
1) disclose and don't get in
2) don't disclose, but they find out, and you won't get in.

Personally I think you should just find another profession.

 

[7331poas]

Would you lie about an EC that you didn't participate in even if you think that med schools wouldn't follow up on whether you did it or not? I'm not trying to sound like a dick, but purposefully lying on the primary application is a terrible idea. So yes, from a practical standpoint, you should report it.

From a practical standpoint you are an idiot.

Either you dont apply at all and you dont get in.

You disclose it and you dont get in.

You dont disclose it and you MIGHT not get in.

Its a very simple choice from the game theory side of it.

 

[Pastamahn]

.

 

[KungFuPanda123]

From a practical standpoint you are an idiot.

Either you dont apply at all and you dont get in.

You disclose it and you dont get in.

You dont disclose it and you MIGHT not get in.

Its a very simple choice from the game theory side of it.

You didn't consider:

You don't disclose it and you do get in but might get caught down the road after spending hundreds of thousands of dollars (in my opinion, it is far worse to get in and then get kicked out after spending so much time and money. getting denied entrance is an amazing fate in comparison)
You do disclose it and you do still get in

 

[PatchAdams25]

I always forget if it is required to be an honest and truthful person to be a physician??

 

[piii]

I always forget if it is required to be an honest and truthful person to be a physician??

Can't wait for OP to get caught making up things on the wards. Forget to do the neuro exam? No problem, let's lie and say we did! Won't even have to disclose that either!

 

[GrapesofRath]

So
1) It's pretty obvious what you were hoping to accomplish here
2) It's pretty obvious you already knew what AMCAS's ruling is on this.
3) It's pretty obvious you already knew how SDN would react
4) It's pretty obvious you already have a certain definition of "practical standpoint" which many wont agree with.

Really all this comes down to is you. Not anybody else and their input. It's about you and largely your own personal values and how risk averse you are. You're the only person who can answer those two things about yourself. Identify where you stand on those two issues about yourself and make a choice you can live with the rest of your life. You know the pro's and con's of each decision. It's your career and future outlook, not anybody else's.

 

[hopefulERdoc251]

Can't wait for OP to get caught making up things on the wards. Forget to do the neuro exam? No problem, let's lie and say we did! Won't even have to disclose that either!

Pointing it out and not trying to justify OP or any of it, but this happens far more frequently than you think it would not by medical students, but by residents and attending physicians lol.

 

[hopefulERdoc251]

Do you have a source for that, are you a resident? Or are you a premed..?

I am a medical scribe in a fast paced emergency room lol and in outpatient cardiology/internal medicine who is told to document such by physicians lol.

Anecdotal evidence:
1. Patient was in cardiac arrest, resuscitation attempts was failed, yet the physician charted heart/lungs/skin/eyes normal. Signed the chart, went to coding.
2. Ankle sprain/back pain/dental pain/rash/any minor issue-bills level 2 coded chart usually. Multiple physicians/PA's/NP's document such that it is a level 5 and bills as high as possible
3. Cardiology office I work in-same thing. They have a preloaded template with exam findings, and they check heart and lungs. Never check neuro (unless otherwise indicated), never check oropharynx, never check skin other than for edema, never check abdomen and bowel sounds. Yet all the physicians/PA's/NP's chart this and bill for it.

Physicians that I've worked with at top 10 national hospital networks do the same thing. I can tell you for a fact that when patients come in for well check-ups, multiple physicians actually check heart and lungs, but charts, it's documented as cranial nerves intact, no lympadenopathy, no thyromegaly, no JVD, no carotid bruits- a whole bunch **** that they never actually checked.

 

[ProspectiveKidd]

if there is nothing on your transcript then I guess you don't.

did you not read the first response

 

[hopefulERdoc251]

Do you have a source for that, are you a resident? Or are you a premed..?

Also this:

"False reporting of physical findings is almost standard. Pick up any inpatient record, especially on the medical service, and turn to the section on physical examination. There, under “Eyes,” you will typically find PERRLA (pupils equal, round, and react to light and accommodation).20,21 When I see that particular abbreviation, I always ask the house officer, “Did you actually check the pupils for accommodation?” The answer usually is, “No.” Another example appears under “Neurological,” where “cranial nerves intact” is common. In most of these cases, however, cranial nerves I, II, and VIII have not been tested.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2322888/

 

[Goro]

My school has rejected people who didn't mention these types of things in their app, but got outed by an inadvertent slip by a LOR wirter, like "c1881813 has grown so much as a student and a person since the cheating incident".

I appreciate the response. I understand that AMCAS would want me to report it, but I'm asking if I should from a practical standpoint

 

[ace_inhibitor111]

Why don't you call your school and ask if they regard it as an official institutional action?

"If you are not certain whether or not you have been the subject of an institutional action, contact the registrar, student affairs officer, or other appropriate party at the institution for confirmation of your record. " - AAMC

 

[c1881813]

My school has rejected people who didn't mention these types of things in their app, but got outed by an inadvertent slip by a LOR wirter, like "c1881813 has grown so much as a student and a person since the cheating incident".

Thank you for the response. Are there other ways these things could get out? None of my letter writers know about the incident, and there is no committee at my school.

Why don't you call your school and ask if they regard it as an official institutional action?

"If you are not certain whether or not you have been the subject of an institutional action, contact the registrar, student affairs officer, or other appropriate party at the institution for confirmation of your record. " - AAMC

Will do. But why wouldn't it be considered an official IA?

 

[Goro]

You never, ever know who your LOR writers talk to, and about whst. Can you really take the chance???

Thank you for the response. Are there other ways these things could get out? None of my letter writers know about the incident, and there is no committee at my school.



Will do. But why wouldn't it be considered an official IA?

 

[ace_inhibitor111]

Thank you for the response. Are there other ways these things could get out? None of my letter writers know about the incident, and there is no committee at my school.



Will do. But why wouldn't it be considered an official IA?

Well I'm no expert on this but if your student registrar explicitly tells you that you have an IA, then it is likely med schools will also find out. Yes, there are thousands of applicants for each med school but only 100 or so matriculants. It won't be very difficult to verify each app.

But given that it's not on your transcript, there's a chance it might be considered just a warning.

 

[Tallia1]

Just go to the Caribbean- they probably won't care.

 

[osckey]

Personally I think you should just find another profession.

Just go to the Caribbean- they probably won't care.

 

[c1881813]

You never, ever know who your LOR writers talk to, and about whst. Can you really take the chance???

I guess I didn't really think about that. I don't think it'll happen but it is a possibility I guess. Does your school ever randomly do checks on the conduct records of applicants? Are DO schools more lenient on this kind of stuff?

 

[DokterMom]

Thank you for the response. Are there other ways these things could get out? None of my letter writers know about the incident, and there is no committee at my school.



Will do. But why wouldn't it be considered an official IA?

In other words -- "Is it still cheating if odds are good I won't get caught?"

 

[c1881813]

In other words -- "Is it still cheating if odds are good I won't get caught?"

I'm not denying that it happened. But from a realistic perspective there is no need to give medical school any more ammunition than they already have.

 

[Goro]

Yes, and no.

I don't know why pre-meds think that just because DO schools are more forgiving on stats that there's less committed to academic integrity....COCA expansion notwithstanding.

I guess I didn't really think about that. I don't think it'll happen but it is a possibility I guess. Does your school ever randomly do checks on the conduct records of applicants? Are DO schools more lenient on this kind of stuff?

 

[7331poas]

You didn't consider:

You don't disclose it and you do get in but might get caught down the road after spending hundreds of thousands of dollars (in my opinion, it is far worse to get in and then get kicked out after spending so much time and money. getting denied entrance is an amazing fate in comparison)
You do disclose it and you do still get in

Explain a scenario where OP gets caught 2 years after the fact.

 

[c1881813]

Just go to the Caribbean- they probably won't care.

I would much rather go DO.

 

[Tallia1]

I would much rather go DO.

LMAO is this a joke? Do you think DO schools don't care about cheating? The reason I mentioned the Caribbean is because they just want money- they don't care if you cheated all through undergrad.

 

[7331poas]

OP I messaged you and you told me " It is not on my transcript, but it is on my conduct record" thus there is a record of it. I would be careful. At my school you woulda been suspended for 2 semesters. Thank the pre-med gods

Why repeat a personal message out here in the public?

 

[EleanorAbernathyMD]

Better to be upfront if there's any chance of you being caught. I had IA against me for keeping a pet rat in the dorms for two years. Used the generous essay space to write a lovely memoir about Franklin the Rat and BS residence life policies. One interviewer got a pretty good kick out of it. But had I never fessed up, I would have continuously sweat bullets thinking, "Do they know? Have they called my school? Will they change their minds?"

FWIW, you can explain that you came forward and were honest about the cheating. Disclosing it on AMCAS will show you've now told the truth at least TWICE in your life which is promising.

 

[7331poas]

Better to be upfront if there's any chance of you being caught. I had IA against me for keeping a pet rat in the dorms for two years. Used the generous essay space to write a lovely memoir about Franklin the Rat and BS residence life policies. One interviewer got a pretty good kick out of it. But had I never fessed up, I would have continuously sweat bullets thinking, "Do they know? Have they called my school? Will they change their minds?"

FWIW, you can explain that you came forward and were honest about the cheating. Disclosing it on AMCAS will show you've now told the truth at least TWICE in your life which is promising.

Not even close the same situation. Your pet IA != academic integrity IA

 

[machete fred]

Better to be upfront if there's any chance of you being caught. I had IA against me for keeping a pet rat in the dorms for two years. Used the generous essay space to write a lovely memoir about Franklin the Rat and BS residence life policies. One interviewer got a pretty good kick out of it. But had I never fessed up, I would have continuously sweat bullets thinking, "Do they know? Have they called my school? Will they change their minds?"

FWIW, you can explain that you came forward and were honest about the cheating. Disclosing it on AMCAS will show you've now told the truth at least TWICE in your life which is promising.

#RatLivesMatter

 

[EleanorAbernathyMD]

Not even close the same situation. Your pet IA != academic integrity IA

You're right, mine was way cooler, and if you'd chill you would see I offered advice in addition to an anecdote. It is better to come forward than live with the stress of a "what if" situation.

 

[EleanorAbernathyMD]

#RatLivesMatter

I wanted to like this twice. You're the real MVP @machete fred

 

[7331poas]

You're right, mine was way cooler, and if you'd chill you would see I offered advice in addition to an anecdote. It is better to come forward than live with the stress of a "what if" situation.

Right and I am directly refuting that. Its better to be a medical student and feel "bad" about lying than to disclose the information and never get into medical school 100%.

People in here talking about "Oh but, what if when he attempts to match or something someones calls his undergrad dean and finds out?" Please, we all know that isnt going to happen.

 

[candbgirl]

I'm not denying that it happened. But from a realistic perspective there is no need to give medical school any more ammunition than they already have.

Really?


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile app

 

[c1881813]

Why don't you call your school and ask if they regard it as an official institutional action?

"If you are not certain whether or not you have been the subject of an institutional action, contact the registrar, student affairs officer, or other appropriate party at the institution for confirmation of your record. " - AAMC

It is on my conduct record, not my transcript.

LMAO is this a joke? Do you think DO schools don't care about cheating? The reason I mentioned the Caribbean is because they just want money- they don't care if you cheated all through undergrad.

I never said that. Just merely responding to your statement. I am well aware of Caribbean schools. I don't know why you seem to be attacking me? I am well-aware of these consequences.

Right and I am directly refuting that. Its better to be a medical student and feel "bad" about lying than to disclose the information and never get into medical school 100%.

People in here talking about "Oh but, what if when he attempts to match or something someones calls his undergrad dean and finds out?" Please, we all know that isnt going to happen.

Could you expand on this? I know you mentioned Game Theory earlier, (which I understand), but do you think the chance of them finding out is really that low? Noneo f my letter writers know about the incident.

Really?


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile app

Yes.

 

[7331poas]

Could you expand on this? I know you mentioned Game Theory earlier, (which I understand), but do you think the chance of them finding out is really that low? Noneo f my letter writers know about the incident.

The highest chance you have of getting found out is if they "check you out" in their admissions process. If you get rejected because of that then tough luck mate. But its better to have played the game than not play the game. There are no consequences.

However, the chances of you getting accepted, then 3 years later they somehow find out is minuscule.

 

[c1881813]

The highest chance you have of getting found out is if they "check you out" in their admissions process. If you get rejected because of that then tough luck mate. But its better to have played the game than not play the game. There are no consequences.

Wouldn't a potential consequence be the school finding out and then notifying AMCAS which causes me to get rejected across the board?

However, the chances of you getting accepted, then 3 years later they somehow find out is minuscule.

Why do you say that? Apparently they look at conduct records?

 

[7331poas]

Wouldn't a potential consequence be the school finding out and then notifying AMCAS which causes me to get rejected across the board?

You are missing the point. If you willingly disclose the information you are going to get rejected across the board anyway

 

[c1881813]

You are missing the point. If you willingly disclose the information you are going to get rejected across the board anyway

Right. So if you were in my position you wouldn't disclose the IA?

 

[heybubbaa]

Graduate from college and get a job. Continue to volunteer and maintain clinical experience if you want, and in 5-10 years, if you still want to be a doctor, then maybe you could get an admission committee to look past this.

 

[KungFuPanda123]

Right. So if you were in my position you wouldn't disclose the IA?

Listen - why do you keep thinking that you are definitely not going to get into a medical school just because of this IA? Yes, IA's are terrible, but I'm assuming that it's your sophomore year (you mentioned that the cheating was this semester in ochem). You can still get into medical school if you show that you grew from this experience and that it is something in the past. This will include taking probably ~2 (possibly 3) years off.

Crush your classes without cheating ever again, and do well on your MCAT. Proceed to be productive during your gap years and demonstrate that you have plenty of attributes that are attractive to medical schools. Consider going into roles where you are seen as a trusted person (and get experiences you can talk about from them as well as great letters of recs from supervisors who can attest to your high moral character). This includes things like working/volunteering at a hospice, working as a teacher, consistently volunteering at a free clinic (this means doing it every single week for your two years off. no just going for a short period of time for a lot of hours and checking the box off. It doesn't work like that; you'll have to show consistence). Most importantly, go into something that interests you or fascinates you and that you would love to do during those 2 years before getting onto the highway towards becoming a doctor. You'll grow as a individual, have a lot more to offer to your classmates in the future, and learn about yourself.

Stop listening to this 7331poas guy who acts like you are definitely never getting into medical school if you disclose your IA. You just won't be able to get into medical school without taking some time off and letting time heal these wounds. Just make sure that you have a flawless academic integrity record from now on, and do well in your courses.

 

[7331poas]

Option A: Apply, dont disclose, on the off chance med schools check with your dean's office specifically you might get found out.

Option B: Put your life on hold for 3-4 years minimum and try your luck again next time (spoiler: your IA is not going to go away and there is a plethora of evidence to show this).

The fact of the matter is that you are going to get found out exactly the same chance that others who fake volunteering hours will get found out (which is not high).

 

[aalamruad]

Its better to be a medical student and feel "bad" about lying than to disclose the information and never get into medical school 100%.

People like you have no business pursuing this profession.

I don't know why anyone is even still taking OP seriously.

 

[JustaDO]

1. Patient was in cardiac arrest, resuscitation attempts was failed, yet the physician charted heart/lungs/skin/eyes normal. Signed the chart, went to coding.
2. Ankle sprain/back pain/dental pain/rash/any minor issue-bills level 2 coded chart usually. Multiple physicians/PA's/NP's document such that it is a level 5 and bills as high as possible

These 2 scenarios are unlikely if not impossible (especially #1) now that Medicare is cracking down on audits.

Whoever the provider in #1 was should be prepared to have to answer to their state board.