Should I even try to be a doctor at this point?

[AcneRosaceaDermatitis]

And test anxiety is fixable. Go gave a chat with the folks in Student Services

I wonder how med students take STEP/licensing exams without freaking out; aren't there severe consequences if they don't do well?

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[LindaAccepted]

I think you have to decide if you really want to change professions and then to what. Nothing you wrote precludes you from becoming a doctor, NP, PA, or nurse -- other possibly than your conviction that you're not good at science. You can improve at science even if it's not as intuitive to you as the humanities or social science, if you want to do so. Change is a possibility. I sometimes tell family members "'I don't know'" is not a terminal condition." It may be hard, but you can change it.

Before making any serious decision, get more clinical exposure and see if you really and truly want to pursue a different path and then explore more seriously that path. You may decide that your current role in business is right for you. You may decide medicine is right for you. I have a cousin who pursued a successful career in high tech and decided in his late twenties that it wasn't right for him. He felt "empty." He went to medical school, is currently pursuing a Ph.D. alongside the MD that he has already completed, and has been published in JAMA. He made the right decision for him.

You need to make the right decision for you.

 

[Goro]

I wonder how med students take STEP/licensing exams without freaking out; aren't there severe consequences if they don't do well?

They learn how to deal with it (which actually is a professionalism issue...doctors are expected to take care of themselves). Those students that don't usually get dismissed or withdraw in their pre-clinical years.

 

[AcneRosaceaDermatitis]

I think you have to decide if you really want to change professions and then to what. Nothing you wrote precludes you from becoming a doctor, NP, PA, or nurse -- other possibly than your conviction that you're not good at science. You can improve at science even if it's not as intuitive to you as the humanities or social science, if you want to do so. Change is a possibility. I sometimes tell family members "'I don't know'" is not a terminal condition." It may be hard, but you can change it.

Before making any serious decision, get more clinical exposure and see if you really and truly want to pursue a different path and then explore more seriously that path. You may decide that your current role in business is right for you. You may decide medicine is right for you. I have a cousin who pursued a successful career in high tech and decided in his late twenties that it wasn't right for him. He felt "empty." He went to medical school, is currently pursuing a Ph.D. alongside the MD that he has already completed, and has been published in JAMA. He made the right decision for him.

You need to make the right decision for you.

• How do you improve at science?
• Was your cousin better at science than I am, and what drove him to give up a presumably lucrative career in tech for 6-figure student loans in medicine?

 

[AcneRosaceaDermatitis]

They learn how to deal with it (which actually is a professionalism issue...doctors are expected to take care of themselves). Those students that don't usually get dismissed or withdraw in their pre-clinical years.

Okay, but how do they deal with it? Like they just tell themselves "Okay well I'm gonna give it 500% while studying, and just do my best and hope it works out?"

 

[AcneRosaceaDermatitis]

Additionally, many people have suggested shadowing, and here's a quote from someone explaining why I don't think that would work well:

"Frankly, I didn’t know what being a doctor meant. Yes, I was shadowing, trying to get a sense for what the career entailed. However, even in the best of circumstances, shadowing is like deciding to be a pilot after flying economy class on a few intercontinental flights. Maybe it sounds like a good idea. Wouldn’t it be great to be a pilot? you think. Maybe you like the view out the window, watching as you rise above the clouds. But do you really have any idea what it takes to be a pilot? What it feels like to be responsible for landing the plane and returning all those passengers safely to the ground? Do you have enough information to decide this is what I want to do with the rest of my life? You have no idea. I had no idea. A few mornings a week, a few surgeries, I was only guessing."

And this is how I feel too. Shadowing is super passive and I feel like most clinical roles that people with only a bachelor's degree can do don't even come close to the responsibilities of a doctor.

 

[Goro]

• How do you improve at science?

Go check out your school's learning or education center for help with learning strategy, study styles and habits, and test taking skills.

• Was your cousin better at science than I am, and what drove him to give up a presumably lucrative career in tech for 6-figure student loans in medicine?

You really, really have to stop thinking like this! It's self-destructive.

Okay, but how do they deal with it? Like they just tell themselves "Okay well I'm gonna give it 500% while studying, and just do my best and hope it works out?"
NO!!!! It's about finding the best study strategy, and what works for you. Some people make drawings, some write and then re-write their notes, others do Anki cards.

Pay attention: You shadow a doctor to find out what a doctor's day is like, and how different doctors approach the practice of Medicine.

You get clinical experience (either by working or volunteering) with patients to know what you getting into and to find out if this is what you really want to do for the next 30-40 years.

You do nonclinical volunteering to show your altruism, because Medicine is a service profession.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

@Mr.Smile12 --can we go back 20 years and you give me the same pep talk? This is exactly what I needed to hear back then. LOL.

Thanks! Of course, I don't think I could have had enough confidence or insight 20 years ago to say it.

This little video link also helps gives a better idea of really what science is all about. We only had Marches for Science or similar festivals for about 10 years, I think. Considering all the discussion about "science competencies", this is really what I emphasize. It's not just the content, and this video really does a nice job explaining what science is.

Adam Savage of Myth Busters on Why Science Matters | Above the Noise | PBS LearningMedia

In a special episode of Above the Noise, host Shirin Ghaffary asked the host of the popular TV show MythBusters, Adam Savage, about why he participated in the March for Science in San Francisco on April 22. Savage is a passionate advocate for science. He says that much of the current opposition...

ideastream.pbslearningmedia.org

 

[AcneRosaceaDermatitis]

Go check out your school's learning or education center for help with learning strategy, study styles and habits, and test taking skills.

You really, really have to stop thinking like this! It's self-destructive.

Okay, but how do they deal with it? Like they just tell themselves "Okay well I'm gonna give it 500% while studying, and just do my best and hope it works out?"
NO!!!! It's about finding the best study strategy, and what works for you. Some people make drawings, some write and then re-write their notes, others do Anki cards.

Pay attention: You shadow a doctor to find out what a doctor's day is like, and how different doctors approach the practice of Medicine.

You get clinical experience (either by working or volunteering) with patients to know what you getting into and to find out if this is what you really want to do for the next 30-40 years.

You do nonclinical volunteering to show your altruism, because Medicine is a service profession.

So are you saying the quote about shadowing above came from the fact that the lady wasn't paying enough attention while shadowing?

 

[Goro]

So are you saying the quote about shadowing above came from the fact that the lady wasn't paying enough attention while shadowing?

No it's to try and tell you what shadowing is all about

 

[GoSpursGo]

Additionally, many people have suggested shadowing, and here's a quote from someone explaining why I don't think that would work well:

"Frankly, I didn’t know what being a doctor meant. Yes, I was shadowing, trying to get a sense for what the career entailed. However, even in the best of circumstances, shadowing is like deciding to be a pilot after flying economy class on a few intercontinental flights. Maybe it sounds like a good idea. Wouldn’t it be great to be a pilot? you think. Maybe you like the view out the window, watching as you rise above the clouds. But do you really have any idea what it takes to be a pilot? What it feels like to be responsible for landing the plane and returning all those passengers safely to the ground? Do you have enough information to decide this is what I want to do with the rest of my life? You have no idea. I had no idea. A few mornings a week, a few surgeries, I was only guessing."

And this is how I feel too. Shadowing is super passive and I feel like most clinical roles that people with only a bachelor's degree can do don't even come close to the responsibilities of a doctor.

Sorry, this is ridiculous. In your hypothetical, shadowing would involve sitting in the cockpit with a pilot and watching the decisions they make, and asking questions. Of course shadowing or getting other Bachelor's level clinical experience is not the same as actually being a doctor, but it is better than having no idea at all what you are getting yourself into. You absolutely cannot "think through" what taking care of patients is like and decide you want to be a doctor.

I apologize because I think I'm coming off much more "tough love" than some of my colleagues. I really get the sense that you came here because you want someone to tell you that you can't hack it in medicine. Objectively speaking, based on your academic performance, that is not true. If you are dealing with anxiety or other mental health issues that are holding you back, then you need to take care of yourself and seek help--as you highlighted, medical training is high-stress and it is important to learn early on how to manage that stress. But nobody is going to drag you kicking and screaming to go into medical school either--you are an adult and need to decide for yourself.

 

[Dral]

I get the same overall feeling of GoSpursGo. The more typical thread around here is someone who is borderline stats and they want the 'Everything is fine, if you try hard enough you can do whatever you want!' pep talk. Then sometimes, they get bent out of shape when we give them a reality check. You (OP) sorta seem the opposite of that (I'm not saying you're getting bent of shape btw). If you know that much about things down the line such as the competitiveness of Derm, then you know what it takes to get into medical school, and you know you have the stats to get into med school.

I guess maybe we can pinpoint this to "But will I be able to handle medical school when I have to do a lot of sciency courses at the same time?" This is why again I think it would be helpful to take a semester of science heavy (all science) courses. You know damn well you can get a good grade in Anatomy, but can you get a good grade in Anatomy, physiology, molecular genetics, and biochem while taking them simultaneously.

I admit, that the prospect of taking calc, advanced sequences and series, advanced mathematic functions, etc all in one semester would be daunting to me since I have convinced myself that, while getting good math grades my whole life, that I 'suck at math'. But if that's what it took for me to get into a career I had decided I wanted to pursue, I would do it to at least see how it went.

Where your imposter syndrome has to stop is that if you can get As/Bs in all those science classes at the same time, you have to talk yourself out of this 'suck at science' thing and convince yourself that people (teachers/professors) set grades of As (and Bs) because if a student gets to that level, they have mastered the material, regardless of how a single student got to that grade/level of mastery (different study methods, memorization, innate abilities, etc).

Once I got to med school I had a horrible time with Pharm. It is not visual. It is just memorization of a bunch of med names, functions, side effects, dosages, etc. I am NO good at that. I used to take study sheets of the meds and highlight things with like 8 different highlighter colors in a vain attempt at making it visual. I hated it, but I got through it. If you really want to do this physician thing, I'm betting you can get through it too. The question is, is this what you really want to pursue?

 

[FluffyCat1212]

Just had to come on here and mention that my cGPA AND sGPA were lower than yours. If you suck at science, I must royally suck at science

Somehow, I still received several MD and DO acceptances and just successfully finished my first year at a reasonably prestigious (not that it matters) med school. So yeah, you have absolutely no chance whatsoever of becoming a physician (*just kidding)

Make sure the rest of your app is strong, do the best you can on the MCAT, and I'm betting you'll be just fine.

 

[AcneRosaceaDermatitis]

I get the same overall feeling of GoSpursGo. The more typical thread around here is someone who is borderline stats and they want the 'Everything is fine, if you try hard enough you can do whatever you want!' pep talk. Then sometimes, they get bent out of shape when we give them a reality check. You (OP) sorta seem the opposite of that (I'm not saying you're getting bent of shape btw). If you know that much about things down the line such as the competitiveness of Derm, then you know what it takes to get into medical school, and you know you have the stats to get into med school.

I guess maybe we can pinpoint this to "But will I be able to handle medical school when I have to do a lot of sciency courses at the same time?" This is why again I think it would be helpful to take a semester of science heavy (all science) courses. You know damn well you can get a good grade in Anatomy, but can you get a good grade in Anatomy, physiology, molecular genetics, and biochem while taking them simultaneously.

I admit, that the prospect of taking calc, advanced sequences and series, advanced mathematic functions, etc all in one semester would be daunting to me since I have convinced myself that, while getting good math grades my whole life, that I 'suck at math'. But if that's what it took for me to get into a career I had decided I wanted to pursue, I would do it to at least see how it went.

Where your imposter syndrome has to stop is that if you can get As/Bs in all those science classes at the same time, you have to talk yourself out of this 'suck at science' thing and convince yourself that people (teachers/professors) set grades of As (and Bs) because if a student gets to that level, they have mastered the material, regardless of how a single student got to that grade/level of mastery (different study methods, memorization, innate abilities, etc).

Once I got to med school I had a horrible time with Pharm. It is not visual. It is just memorization of a bunch of med names, functions, side effects, dosages, etc. I am NO good at that. I used to take study sheets of the meds and highlight things with like 8 different highlighter colors in a vain attempt at making it visual. I hated it, but I got through it. If you really want to do this physician thing, I'm betting you can get through it too. The question is, is this what you really want to pursue?

What is borderline stats? Also, what were your grades in math?

 

[Dral]

Borderline is let’s say a 3.0 gpa and a 501 MCAT talking about applying to a school like UPMC.

It’s been awhile but I got A’s in high school. In college I just took college calc. I think I got a B first semester and a B+ second semester.

 

[AcneRosaceaDermatitis]

Borderline is let’s say a 3.0 gpa and a 501 MCAT talking about applying to a school like UPMC.

It’s been awhile but I got A’s in high school. In college I just took college calc. I think I got a B first semester and a B+ second semester.

would a 3.0 gpa and 501 mcat be able to get into a DO school?

 

[candbgirl]

I wonder how med students take STEP/licensing exams without freaking out; aren't there severe consequences if they don't do well?

Oh my goodness. Either you are a troll or you have absolutely NO idea about the process of becoming a doctor and moving through the profession at all. Follow
@Goro ’s advice and find someone in student services to talk to. You also need to start reading a wide variety of sites that deal with medical school. Start here at SDN.

 

[candbgirl]

So there are no consequences if they fail their STEP or licensing exams?

Did I say that or even hint at it? I’m done with this thread. Many people, including several ADCOMS and actual doctor’s have offered appropriate advice . It’s up to you to consider it or not.

 

[Goro]

would a 3.0 gpa and 501 mcat be able to get into a DO school?

Some of them. Not mine, though

 

[LindaAccepted]

• How do you improve at science?
• Was your cousin better at science than I am, and what drove him to give up a presumably lucrative career in tech for 6-figure student loans in medicine?

To improve at science go to study centers, office hours. consider a postbac program for career changers. Maybe get a tutor for a particularly challenging class.

My cousin had pursued a career in high tech. It certainly involved more science than humanities. He was also determined and motivated. I'm not sure you are. You seem to have a lot of doubts as to whether you should make the change, and at this time, I'm not sure you have enough experience in healthcare to make an informed decision. He was motivated because he didn't find his career personally satisfying. He wanted the satisfaction of being a doctor and not just the $$$ he was making in high tech.

You're likely going to be working for the next 40 years. If you find the rewards of business satisfying (I do) , then probably you shouldn't switch. If you get more clinical exposure and find healthcare more deeply satisfying than business, you may too become motivated enough to study more or more effectively and do well in the sciences.

But now I wonder if you aren't using "I'm bad at science" as an excuse for not even exploring medicine further and determining whether it makes sense to make the change.

 

[AcneRosaceaDermatitis]

To improve at science go to study centers, office hours. consider a postbac program for career changers. Maybe get a tutor for a particularly challenging class.

My cousin had pursued a career in high tech. It certainly involved more science than humanities. He was also determined and motivated. I'm not sure you are. You seem to have a lot of doubts as to whether you should make the change, and at this time, I'm not sure you have enough experience in healthcare to make an informed decision. He was motivated because he didn't find his career personally satisfying. He wanted the satisfaction of being a doctor and not just the $$$ he was making in high tech.

You're likely going to be working for the next 40 years. If you find the rewards of business satisfying (I do) , then probably you shouldn't switch. If you get more clinical exposure and find healthcare more deeply satisfying than business, you may too become motivated enough to study more or more effectively and do well in the sciences.

But now I wonder if you aren't using "I'm bad at science" as an excuse for not even exploring medicine further and determining whether it makes sense to make the change.

Yeah, so your cousin didn't face the same academic challenges as me lol. I'm also really bad at CS. Economics isn't that challenging lol

 

[LunaOri]

Additionally, many people have suggested shadowing, and here's a quote from someone explaining why I don't think that would work well:

"Frankly, I didn’t know what being a doctor meant. Yes, I was shadowing, trying to get a sense for what the career entailed. However, even in the best of circumstances, shadowing is like deciding to be a pilot after flying economy class on a few intercontinental flights. Maybe it sounds like a good idea. Wouldn’t it be great to be a pilot? you think. Maybe you like the view out the window, watching as you rise above the clouds. But do you really have any idea what it takes to be a pilot? What it feels like to be responsible for landing the plane and returning all those passengers safely to the ground? Do you have enough information to decide this is what I want to do with the rest of my life? You have no idea. I had no idea. A few mornings a week, a few surgeries, I was only guessing."

And this is how I feel too. Shadowing is super passive and I feel like most clinical roles that people with only a bachelor's degree can do don't even come close to the responsibilities of a doctor.

Nonsense! While shadowing is observation and not hands-on, sufficient shadowing will give hou a good idea about what day-to-day life as a physician entails. If shadowing is “not for you”, then what makes you think medicine will be?

 

[deleted1022107]

Context + Important Grades + Academics

I’ve always thought that I wanted to be a physician or work in some subset of healthcare (i.e. nursing, pharmacy). In fact, I never even bothered to explore other careers in high school and my first 1.5 years of college because I was so attached to the medical/healthcare fields.

However, as time went on, my goals shifted as I looked at my poor GPA, especially after organic chemistry, and after deciding that I wanted to be entirely financially independent after college (no, living off loans doesn’t count) because my parents are toxic and controlling.

Ultimately, I ended up graduating last December from UC Berkeley with a 3.73 GPA in economics. I gave up on premed classes and spent the last 2 years of college focused on landing a career in a business field, which I’m currently working in.

My cGPA is 3.79. It’s different from the 3.73 I listed above as my college GPA, as it includes some classes I took in community college during my gap semester and in HS. My sGPA is anywhere between 3.5 to 3.65 depending on if the 3 courses below with asterisks count.

I’m sure y’all can clearly see that I suck at all things STEM because of the huge delta between my cGPA and sGPA. I've literally NEVER earned a B in anything humanities related, and the worst grade I've gotten in an economics class was an A-, so...yeah.

Here are my science grades in greater detail (I added asterisks if I wasn’t sure they were BCPM classes or not):

• General Chemistry - A
• General Chemistry Lab - A
• Calculus I - B+
• Calculus II - B+
• Statistics - B+
• Organic Chemistry 1 - B-
• Organic Chemistry 1 Lab - A
• Physiology - A
• Organic Chemistry II - P (Would have been a B or B+ if not for P/NP in Spring 2020)
• Introduction to Data Science (Listed under stat department at my school) - A*
• Introduction to Research Methods in Psychology - A+*
• Biological Anthropology - A*

Other Red Flags Besides Sucking at Science

Other red flags on my application would be that I P/NP-ed most of my economics classes between Spring 2020 and Fall 2021 and that I withdrew from school in Fall 2018. That being said, I took CC classes during Spring 2019 and did well in all of them (straight A’s). I also never got anything below a B+ after returning to my college in Summer 2019 if I took the classes letter graded. I've never had problems with the law or gotten punished for academic dishonesty.

Extracurriculars

As for EC’s, I shadowed a GI doctor for about 15 hours and did some hospice volunteering for about 20 hours. I was a health worker in college dormitories for about 6 weeks (~15 hours), and was a general chemistry lab assistant and TA for one semester each. I was part of a premed club my freshman year of college, but didn’t contribute much beyond being an active member. I’ve also been an unpaid intern at 3 healthcare startups, if those even count, and currently work in the business side of healthcare for my full-time job.

Why Am I Even Thinking About Healthcare Again if I Suck at Science So Much?

So the reason that I’m thinking of doing a career in healthcare again, whether it’s medicine or nursing, is because…while I like the creative/analytical/people side of business, a career in healthcare feels more meaningful to me and because I’ve wanted to work in healthcare since I was a kid. I'd like feeling like I'm making a direct impact in people's lives.

However, I’m not entirely sure if it’d be worth it since I’d have a lot more pre-reqs to take and because I’m not good at science. I have a very weak background in biology and physics. AND, even if I were to get accepted into med school, I honestly don’t know if I’d be able to graduate and pass STEP exams because I’m so bad at science and have test anxiety. Not to mention all the financial pressure of not being able to graduate from medical school...

I’m also not really willing to do a formal, full-time postbacc unless it’s somehow free for me (won't happen LOL) and while CC classes are free in my city, they’re during working hours. I’m also not sure if I’m willing to give up a cushy job in business for the years of stress that come with being a medical student and resident and whatnot. Additionally, I am supporting myself in a VHCOL city (but am very frugal and spend only 750/month or so).

At this point, I feel like being an RN or NP is more doable for me and would make more sense vs. going the MD/DO route.

Any thoughts on my grades, overall academic capability, or whether I should even try to be doctor would be appreciated.

I'm also 23, female, and ORM if it matters. Also a California resident.

What Have Others Said About My Chances?

My parents, who are really blunt, didn't think I'd get into medical school on that trajectory. They thought that I should focus on things I'm actually good at. Neither of them are doctors, though.

A biology student advisor said that she thought I still had a chance, and the premed advisor at my school just said some **** about how grades aren't everything because she saw B/C students get II's when straight A students didn't.

My Expectations

If I were to become a doctor, I literally don't expect anything at all and am not one of those gunners who's only aiming for Harvard Medical School or some ****. Despite my username, I know that I'll likely never become a dermatologist given how competitive it is and I don't expect to get into any MD schools at all.

You could always look into a DO or Caribbean medical school. They are great options for students needing another avenue. I’ve been in medicine for over 20 years and I can tell you that if you have a passion for being a physician no matter what you do other then being a doctor will be less fulfilling.

 

[surfguy84]

It's hard to explain, but science is a lot harder for me than humanities/economics and even math. Also, peep that B-minus in organic chemistry LOL

Science doesn't feel intuitive to me, and as I said, I have a very weak background in biology and physics.

And yeah, my parents don't want me to go into medicine or nursing LOL. They think it's better to just choose a field where you can make a moderate/high amount of money after undergrad.

Get yourself a good therapist, you (likely due to your parents influence) appear quite neurotic. I say this as no insult but as a genuine recommendation. Addressing this now will help you when you are a medical student.

 

[brc1123]

If I can get into a respected US MD school with a 3.4 GPA and 3.5 science GPA than you can get in too

 

[PhD_to_DO]

Context + Important Grades + Academics

I’ve always thought that I wanted to be a physician or work in some subset of healthcare (i.e. nursing, pharmacy). In fact, I never even bothered to explore other careers in high school and my first 1.5 years of college because I was so attached to the medical/healthcare fields.

However, as time went on, my goals shifted as I looked at my poor GPA, especially after organic chemistry, and after deciding that I wanted to be entirely financially independent after college (no, living off loans doesn’t count) because my parents are toxic and controlling.

Ultimately, I ended up graduating last December from UC Berkeley with a 3.73 GPA in economics. I gave up on premed classes and spent the last 2 years of college focused on landing a career in a business field, which I’m currently working in.

My cGPA is 3.79. It’s different from the 3.73 I listed above as my college GPA, as it includes some classes I took in community college during my gap semester and in HS. My sGPA is anywhere between 3.5 to 3.65 depending on if the 3 courses below with asterisks count.

I’m sure y’all can clearly see that I suck at all things STEM because of the huge delta between my cGPA and sGPA. I've literally NEVER earned a B in anything humanities related, and the worst grade I've gotten in an economics class was an A-, so...yeah.

Here are my science grades in greater detail (I added asterisks if I wasn’t sure they were BCPM classes or not):

• General Chemistry - A
• General Chemistry Lab - A
• Calculus I - B+
• Calculus II - B+
• Statistics - B+
• Organic Chemistry 1 - B-
• Organic Chemistry 1 Lab - A
• Physiology - A
• Organic Chemistry II - P (Would have been a B or B+ if not for P/NP in Spring 2020)
• Introduction to Data Science (Listed under stat department at my school) - A*
• Introduction to Research Methods in Psychology - A+*
• Biological Anthropology - A*

Other Red Flags Besides Sucking at Science

Other red flags on my application would be that I P/NP-ed most of my economics classes between Spring 2020 and Fall 2021 and that I withdrew from school in Fall 2018. That being said, I took CC classes during Spring 2019 and did well in all of them (straight A’s). I also never got anything below a B+ after returning to my college in Summer 2019 if I took the classes letter graded. I've never had problems with the law or gotten punished for academic dishonesty.

Extracurriculars

As for EC’s, I shadowed a GI doctor for about 15 hours and did some hospice volunteering for about 20 hours. I was a health worker in college dormitories for about 6 weeks (~15 hours), and was a general chemistry lab assistant and TA for one semester each. I was part of a premed club my freshman year of college, but didn’t contribute much beyond being an active member. I’ve also been an unpaid intern at 3 healthcare startups, if those even count, and currently work in the business side of healthcare for my full-time job.

Why Am I Even Thinking About Healthcare Again if I Suck at Science So Much?

So the reason that I’m thinking of doing a career in healthcare again, whether it’s medicine or nursing, is because…while I like the creative/analytical/people side of business, a career in healthcare feels more meaningful to me and because I’ve wanted to work in healthcare since I was a kid. I'd like feeling like I'm making a direct impact in people's lives.

However, I’m not entirely sure if it’d be worth it since I’d have a lot more pre-reqs to take and because I’m not good at science. I have a very weak background in biology and physics. AND, even if I were to get accepted into med school, I honestly don’t know if I’d be able to graduate and pass STEP exams because I’m so bad at science and have test anxiety. Not to mention all the financial pressure of not being able to graduate from medical school...

I’m also not really willing to do a formal, full-time postbacc unless it’s somehow free for me (won't happen LOL) and while CC classes are free in my city, they’re during working hours. I’m also not sure if I’m willing to give up a cushy job in business for the years of stress that come with being a medical student and resident and whatnot. Additionally, I am supporting myself in a VHCOL city (but am very frugal and spend only 750/month or so).

At this point, I feel like being an RN or NP is more doable for me and would make more sense vs. going the MD/DO route.

Any thoughts on my grades, overall academic capability, or whether I should even try to be doctor would be appreciated.

I'm also 23, female, and ORM if it matters. Also a California resident.

What Have Others Said About My Chances?

My parents, who are really blunt, didn't think I'd get into medical school on that trajectory. They thought that I should focus on things I'm actually good at. Neither of them are doctors, though.

A biology student advisor said that she thought I still had a chance, and the premed advisor at my school just said some **** about how grades aren't everything because she saw B/C students get II's when straight A students didn't.

My Expectations

If I were to become a doctor, I literally don't expect anything at all and am not one of those gunners who's only aiming for Harvard Medical School or some ****. Despite my username, I know that I'll likely never become a dermatologist given how competitive it is and I don't expect to get into any MD schools at all.

I’m not understanding where you “suck” at science. Please, show me where the suck is. I am a second year medical student and did not have nearly as competitive of a GPA as you do. This goes to show that attaining admissions to medical school is based on much more than grades and an MCAT score. So you need to decide if you are going to suck it up and move forward with pursuing your dream or are you going to listen whatever silly voice is telling you that you aren’t a competitive applicant. Your choice.

 

[Goro]

You could always look into a DO or Caribbean medical school. They are great options for students needing another avenue. I’ve been in medicine for over 20 years and I can tell you that if you have a passion for being a physician no matter what you do other then being a doctor will be less fulfilling.

OP, under no circumstances consider the Caribbean.

 

[Area_Postrema_95]

I'm a fourth year med student at a decent MD program- I love what I do every day, and have been fairly successful academically.

But during college I think I had a similar mindset as you, OP. That I would never be good enough, my sGPA wasn't good enough, I would never have a strong application. So I never actually sought help to build my app because I was afraid -CONVINCED- that someone would confirm my suspicions that I wasn't good enough. I applied, and got rejected from every school.

Honestly, having to reapply was the best thing that happened to me professionally. It forced me to ask myself if I actually wanted to do this (answer is YES!), made me learn how to ask for help, and mostly- it forced me to learn how to re-define "success".

Is success getting every interview invite at top schools? No- it became getting any acceptance.
-In preclinical- is success acing every exam? No- it's working hard to learn a topic, identifying what my weaknesses were and working on them.
-With Step exams- getting the same scores as my peers? - No, it's getting a score that will help me match (BTW we all get stressed to the bone with Step, but the alternative is wasting all this time ,effort, and money because we're afraid to fail. Most people do fine, so we just work hard, rest well, and deal with the consequences after the fact. It will be ok)

So I would encourage you to think about what "success" means for you, OP. Does it mean not struggling pre-clinical sciences? Hopefully not because most docs have "struggled" somewhere. Or does it mean being a doctor/NP/PA/nurse etc? Does success mean being an MD instead of DO? Maybe, but there are plenty of amazing and intelligent DOs I would want taking care of my family, so maybe the answer here again is "no".

I am not concerned at all about your skill with the sciences, as many have expressed. But I would be concerned that you would fail to get accepted (or deal with med school stresses after) for the same reason I did- because I was afraid/convinced I wasn't good enough. It can become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

edit: I say this because I would really like you to work on this negative self-talk before applying. You are good enough.

Sorry for the novel of a post, and my DMs are open if you want to chat about things.

 

[hopefullydoc117]

Context + Important Grades + Academics

I’ve always thought that I wanted to be a physician or work in some subset of healthcare (i.e. nursing, pharmacy). In fact, I never even bothered to explore other careers in high school and my first 1.5 years of college because I was so attached to the medical/healthcare fields.

However, as time went on, my goals shifted as I looked at my poor GPA, especially after organic chemistry, and after deciding that I wanted to be entirely financially independent after college (no, living off loans doesn’t count) because my parents are toxic and controlling.

Ultimately, I ended up graduating last December from UC Berkeley with a 3.73 GPA in economics. I gave up on premed classes and spent the last 2 years of college focused on landing a career in a business field, which I’m currently working in.

My cGPA is 3.79. It’s different from the 3.73 I listed above as my college GPA, as it includes some classes I took in community college during my gap semester and in HS. My sGPA is anywhere between 3.5 to 3.65 depending on if the 3 courses below with asterisks count.

I’m sure y’all can clearly see that I suck at all things STEM because of the huge delta between my cGPA and sGPA. I've literally NEVER earned a B in anything humanities related, and the worst grade I've gotten in an economics class was an A-, so...yeah.

Here are my science grades in greater detail (I added asterisks if I wasn’t sure they were BCPM classes or not):

• General Chemistry - A
• General Chemistry Lab - A
• Calculus I - B+
• Calculus II - B+
• Statistics - B+
• Organic Chemistry 1 - B-
• Organic Chemistry 1 Lab - A
• Physiology - A
• Organic Chemistry II - P (Would have been a B or B+ if not for P/NP in Spring 2020)
• Introduction to Data Science (Listed under stat department at my school) - A*
• Introduction to Research Methods in Psychology - A+*
• Biological Anthropology - A*

Other Red Flags Besides Sucking at Science

Other red flags on my application would be that I P/NP-ed most of my economics classes between Spring 2020 and Fall 2021 and that I withdrew from school in Fall 2018. That being said, I took CC classes during Spring 2019 and did well in all of them (straight A’s). I also never got anything below a B+ after returning to my college in Summer 2019 if I took the classes letter graded. I've never had problems with the law or gotten punished for academic dishonesty.

Extracurriculars

As for EC’s, I shadowed a GI doctor for about 15 hours and did some hospice volunteering for about 20 hours. I was a health worker in college dormitories for about 6 weeks (~15 hours), and was a general chemistry lab assistant and TA for one semester each. I was part of a premed club my freshman year of college, but didn’t contribute much beyond being an active member. I’ve also been an unpaid intern at 3 healthcare startups, if those even count, and currently work in the business side of healthcare for my full-time job.

Why Am I Even Thinking About Healthcare Again if I Suck at Science So Much?

So the reason that I’m thinking of doing a career in healthcare again, whether it’s medicine or nursing, is because…while I like the creative/analytical/people side of business, a career in healthcare feels more meaningful to me and because I’ve wanted to work in healthcare since I was a kid. I'd like feeling like I'm making a direct impact in people's lives.

However, I’m not entirely sure if it’d be worth it since I’d have a lot more pre-reqs to take and because I’m not good at science. I have a very weak background in biology and physics. AND, even if I were to get accepted into med school, I honestly don’t know if I’d be able to graduate and pass STEP exams because I’m so bad at science and have test anxiety. Not to mention all the financial pressure of not being able to graduate from medical school...

I’m also not really willing to do a formal, full-time postbacc unless it’s somehow free for me (won't happen LOL) and while CC classes are free in my city, they’re during working hours. I’m also not sure if I’m willing to give up a cushy job in business for the years of stress that come with being a medical student and resident and whatnot. Additionally, I am supporting myself in a VHCOL city (but am very frugal and spend only 750/month or so).

At this point, I feel like being an RN or NP is more doable for me and would make more sense vs. going the MD/DO route.

Any thoughts on my grades, overall academic capability, or whether I should even try to be doctor would be appreciated.

I'm also 23, female, and ORM if it matters. Also a California resident.

What Have Others Said About My Chances?

My parents, who are really blunt, didn't think I'd get into medical school on that trajectory. They thought that I should focus on things I'm actually good at. Neither of them are doctors, though.

A biology student advisor said that she thought I still had a chance, and the premed advisor at my school just said some **** about how grades aren't everything because she saw B/C students get II's when straight A students didn't.

My Expectations

If I were to become a doctor, I literally don't expect anything at all and am not one of those gunners who's only aiming for Harvard Medical School or some ****. Despite my username, I know that I'll likely never become a dermatologist given how competitive it is and I don't expect to get into any MD schools at all.

Like many have said before, you don't "suck" at science. Your lowest science grade is a B-. There are so many people in my medical school (US MD state school) who got C's, D's, or failed classes, including myself (C). My own organic chemistry grades were in the B- range. Firstly, some expectation setting: college is often the first time a lot of high-performing students get their first B. That is okay! Regardless, the important thing is to identify your reasons for "poor" grades (mental health, time management, taking on too many classes, study skills, etc) and work on those. Also, work on your own self-esteem and on learning to accept failures, because there is a lot in medical school and residency.

You can emphasize your insights and experiences in the healthcare business side, econ, etc - it's a stength. Would definitely recommend more hands-on experience for you to figure out why you want to pursue medicine. You can make a meaningful impact through social impact-focused businesses, start-ups, healthcare non-profits, and many other ways.

Also, speaking with gentle kindness here, a lot of Asian parents (assuming that since you said you are ORM) don't understand the medical education system in the U.S. and have very unrealistic ideas. My parents (also Asian ORM, immigrants) do not understand the P/F system and cannot wrap their heads that we don't get a % for step scores, that test scores don't directly relate to admissions, etc. But, they have always been supportive of my goals and have come to accept that my mentors and I know more about this than them, or random gossip

 

[Pshalt]

I hope you are listening to this crowd instead of your parents. You have the chops to go to medical school. I had a 3.3 science GPA and overall GPA 3.4 at UC Berkeley, midrange MCATs, but did a few years neuroscience research at UCSF and ended up at Columbia University Medical School and trained in radiology at Harvard. Follow your passion, not your insecurities.

 

[AcneRosaceaDermatitis]

OP, under no circumstances consider the Caribbean.

It's the only place that'd accept me lol

 

[butidontwantto]

Also, if you didn't like shadowing, try working as a medical scribe. Physicians who work with scribes are (usually) better at vocalizing their medical decision making and exam findings, which means you get a better learning opportunity. You also get exposed to the flow of the office, how different healthcare professions work together, and you get to be useful instead of feeling like you're just in the way when you're shadowing.

 

[StressedBiClown]

It's the only place that'd accept me lol

This is the opposite of what everyone on this two-page thread has said so far. No one can help you if you don't actually want the help. There's an incredible amount of fabulous advice here and loads more in the other forums, but you need to put in the work now.
Or don't and stick to your original plans. This only affects you. Good luck.

 

[Goro]

This is the opposite of what everyone on this two-page thread has said so far. No one can help you if you don't actually want the help. There's an incredible amount of fabulous advice here and loads more in the other forums, but you need to put in the work now.
Or don't and stick to your original plans. This only affects you. Good luck.

OP was joking on that one. Humor/sarcasm doesn't travel well on the internet.

 

[AcneRosaceaDermatitis]

OP was joking on that one. Humor/sarcasm doesn't travel well on the internet.

Nah, I was being serious

 

[Goro]

Nah, I was being serious

10/10

 

[shotgunlagoon]

girl your stats are literally perfectly fine. if that’s bad at science, i must have failed my undergrad classes. i took ochem twice, got a C- the first time and a C the second time. Guess what? I’m going to a DO school and I’m doing fine. My stats were way lower than yours and I got multiple interviews. If you aren’t a troll, you need some serious help with your self esteem and a reality check.

Literally everyone on this thread is saying your stats are fine, you should just get some more experience to really figure out if you want to do medicine. You keep ignoring those messages and calling yourself “bad at science” and asking questions that sound like you have no faith in your ability to get into ANY medical school.

Go get some therapy and fix that self deprecation, and try reading this thread again.

 

[eternity76]

Context + Important Grades + Academics

I’ve always thought that I wanted to be a physician or work in some subset of healthcare (i.e. nursing, pharmacy). In fact, I never even bothered to explore other careers in high school and my first 1.5 years of college because I was so attached to the medical/healthcare fields.

However, as time went on, my goals shifted as I looked at my poor GPA, especially after organic chemistry, and after deciding that I wanted to be entirely financially independent after college (no, living off loans doesn’t count) because my parents are toxic and controlling.

Ultimately, I ended up graduating last December from UC Berkeley with a 3.73 GPA in economics. I gave up on premed classes and spent the last 2 years of college focused on landing a career in a business field, which I’m currently working in.

My cGPA is 3.79. It’s different from the 3.73 I listed above as my college GPA, as it includes some classes I took in community college during my gap semester and in HS. My sGPA is anywhere between 3.5 to 3.65 depending on if the 3 courses below with asterisks count.

I’m sure y’all can clearly see that I suck at all things STEM because of the huge delta between my cGPA and sGPA. I've literally NEVER earned a B in anything humanities related, and the worst grade I've gotten in an economics class was an A-, so...yeah.

Here are my science grades in greater detail (I added asterisks if I wasn’t sure they were BCPM classes or not):

• General Chemistry - A
• General Chemistry Lab - A
• Calculus I - B+
• Calculus II - B+
• Statistics - B+
• Organic Chemistry 1 - B-
• Organic Chemistry 1 Lab - A
• Physiology - A
• Organic Chemistry II - P (Would have been a B or B+ if not for P/NP in Spring 2020)
• Introduction to Data Science (Listed under stat department at my school) - A*
• Introduction to Research Methods in Psychology - A+*
• Biological Anthropology - A*

Other Red Flags Besides Sucking at Science

Other red flags on my application would be that I P/NP-ed most of my economics classes between Spring 2020 and Fall 2021 and that I withdrew from school in Fall 2018. That being said, I took CC classes during Spring 2019 and did well in all of them (straight A’s). I also never got anything below a B+ after returning to my college in Summer 2019 if I took the classes letter graded. I've never had problems with the law or gotten punished for academic dishonesty.

Extracurriculars

As for EC’s, I shadowed a GI doctor for about 15 hours and did some hospice volunteering for about 20 hours. I was a health worker in college dormitories for about 6 weeks (~15 hours), and was a general chemistry lab assistant and TA for one semester each. I was part of a premed club my freshman year of college, but didn’t contribute much beyond being an active member. I’ve also been an unpaid intern at 3 healthcare startups, if those even count, and currently work in the business side of healthcare for my full-time job.

Why Am I Even Thinking About Healthcare Again if I Suck at Science So Much?

So the reason that I’m thinking of doing a career in healthcare again, whether it’s medicine or nursing, is because…while I like the creative/analytical/people side of business, a career in healthcare feels more meaningful to me and because I’ve wanted to work in healthcare since I was a kid. I'd like feeling like I'm making a direct impact in people's lives.

However, I’m not entirely sure if it’d be worth it since I’d have a lot more pre-reqs to take and because I’m not good at science. I have a very weak background in biology and physics. AND, even if I were to get accepted into med school, I honestly don’t know if I’d be able to graduate and pass STEP exams because I’m so bad at science and have test anxiety. Not to mention all the financial pressure of not being able to graduate from medical school...

I’m also not really willing to do a formal, full-time postbacc unless it’s somehow free for me (won't happen LOL) and while CC classes are free in my city, they’re during working hours. I’m also not sure if I’m willing to give up a cushy job in business for the years of stress that come with being a medical student and resident and whatnot. Additionally, I am supporting myself in a VHCOL city (but am very frugal and spend only 750/month or so).

At this point, I feel like being an RN or NP is more doable for me and would make more sense vs. going the MD/DO route.

Any thoughts on my grades, overall academic capability, or whether I should even try to be doctor would be appreciated.

I'm also 23, female, and ORM if it matters. Also a California resident.

What Have Others Said About My Chances?

My parents, who are really blunt, didn't think I'd get into medical school on that trajectory. They thought that I should focus on things I'm actually good at. Neither of them are doctors, though.

A biology student advisor said that she thought I still had a chance, and the premed advisor at my school just said some **** about how grades aren't everything because she saw B/C students get II's when straight A students didn't.

My Expectations

If I were to become a doctor, I literally don't expect anything at all and am not one of those gunners who's only aiming for Harvard Medical School or some ****. Despite my username, I know that I'll likely never become a dermatologist given how competitive it is and I don't expect to get into any MD schools at all.

I saw your post about being a physician.
I am a specialist physician and faculty member at US.
If you liked medicine from your childhood you need to follow that. It has nothing to do with science in high school… and your grades are fine.
Just follow your heart!

 

[JStarMD]

You are clearly capable, driven and accomplished, but not obsessed with being a physician and/or equivocal with its long-term result for your work life. I think some good advice would be to do 40 or 50 hours of doctor shadowing to get a real feel as to what "being a doctor" really is today. Whether you're currently in a small town or still near UC Berkley there are many docs that would be happy to have you around and answer the tough questions....and you should have those questions ready: "What things do you like and dislike most about being a doctor"? "Would you do it again today?" "What would be your second and third choices"? Get a lot of different opinions to avoid skew. Good Luck. [OK! How do you do this?........call the county medical society and tell them you want the name of a doctor that would be willing to have you shadow them. Since the person answering the phone never gets this request, she won't know how to answer it, so ask if she'd forward your request to one of the officers of the society. You could also walk into the 'medical staff office' at your local hospital and ask the same question of them]

 

[PhD_to_DO]

would a 3.0 gpa and 501 mcat be able to get into a DO school?

I got into multiple DO and one MD schools with 3.18 GPA and 498 MCAT. I have a friend who is an MD/PhD student at MSUCHM and she got in with a 3.3 and 507 MCAT. Another buddy was offered a DO/PhD with a 3.1 and 507 MCAT. Stop dwelling on numbers. There is so much more that goes into getting into medical school, MATURITY and resilience being two of those things that adcoms are looking for.

 

[AcneRosaceaDermatitis]

I got into multiple DO and one MD schools with 3.18 GPA and 498 MCAT. I have a friend who is an MD/PhD student at MSUCHM and she got in with a 3.3 and 507 MCAT. Another buddy was offered a DO/PhD with a 3.1 and 507 MCAT. Stop dwelling on numbers. There is so much more that goes into getting into medical school, MATURITY and resilience being two of those things that adcoms are looking for.

How long ago did you and your friends apply to medical school?

 

[PhD_to_DO]

How long ago did you and your friends apply to medical school?

I applied in 2020-21 as did my friend who is at MSUCHM. My boy who got into the DO/PhD just started medical school this year. You will either take the wisdom that has been given to you here or you won’t. The only thing that will keep you out of medical school is your attitude. Numbers wise, there is nothing to suggest that you shouldn’t get into a US medical school.

 

[PhD_to_DO]

I applied in 2020-21 as did my friend who is at MSUCHM. My boy who got into the DO/PhD just started medical school this year. You will either take the wisdom that has been given to you here or you won’t. The only thing that will keep you out of medical school is your attitude. Numbers wise, there is nothing to suggest that you shouldn’t get into a US medical school.

How long ago did you and your friends apply to medical school?

One thing that I will also say is that if you are going to do ANYTHING in healthcare, you need to have resilience and thick skin. Every field of healthcare has its high stakes exams and poses difficulties for students for different reasons. There is also having to deal with **** outside of your control. For example, my medical school has a new dean and he and the faculty are embroiled in a war regarding our curriculum. At the medical school where my wife is faculty, they are undergoing a whole sale curriculum change, have had three deans in two years, and have lost 7-8 faculty members. In the middle of both situations are the students. We still have to find a way to go on and believe in ourselves even when **** is tough. My parents, family, and friends questioned my desire to atte d medical school and why I would walk away from a safe, secure, and good paying faculty/research position where I was already teaching medical and nursing students. I had to shut them out and move on. You want to be a doctor? Shut out the damn noise and go be a doctor. Or don’t. Its your choice but you have had some of the wisest people that I know, some of whom I have followed for years, give you every reason why you can get into a medical school yet you keep pushing back on that wisdom. So the real question is, do you REALLY want med school? Nothing wrong if you don’t but you better figure that out before you head down this road….

 

[gyngyn]

OP has gotten more than enough information with which to make decisions. No further discussion appears to be indicated or helpful.
Closing.