Should I Go D.O?

[jcve34]

Here should be your game plane

Go MD.
When you get into practice grab a DO and have them teach you muscle energy.

You’re welcome in advance.

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[Blanky]

Another funny point is most of the students pissy about derm and ortho for DO wont have the step for it anyways. So in the end being an MD with a 220 wouldnt help them.

 

[Blanky]

with all the addition of these schools, and carib schools, it seems like an easy way for poorer (aka less stats) students to basically pay their way to take the usmle. maybe one day, it can be like the mcat/sat. u pay to take it, and then apply for residencies. isnt this what happens in IMG anyways? who knows what quality of rotations IMG's have?

Maybe ill go dropkick the NCLEX real quick and work as a premed RN...None of what you said will happen. Ever.

 

[Jyggaswoop]

Maybe ill go dropkick the NCLEX real quick and work as a premed RN...None of what you said will happen. Ever.

lol i know it wont. but you can't deny that is what all caribean schools and vast amount of newer do schools with poor rotations (there are obviously exceptions to this) are functioning as. they want you to pay to just be able to take the usmle, and will take your money. i dont see the big diff between this , and paying to take usmle, then even taking a rotating internship at a decent hospital.

im not supporting it be like that at all, and i realize it will never be like that, but am just pointing out what i think the new schools serve to be (pay us to take boards)

 

[Blanky]

lol i know it wont. but you can't deny that is what all caribean schools and vast amount of newer do schools with poor rotations (there are obviously exceptions to this) are functioning as. they want you to pay to just be able to take the usmle, and will take your money. i dont see the big diff between this , and paying to take usmle, then even taking a rotating internship at a decent hospital.

Waste of time togo off on a make believe tanget. Also i think Carib is a mill, but at the same time i think they fail most out far before they allow them to take the USMLE. So i dont think anywhere you can just pay or sign forloans to take the USMLE

 

[Jyggaswoop]

Waste of time togo off on a make believe tanget. Also i think Carib is a mill, but at the same time i think they fail most out far before they allow them to take the USMLE. So i dont think anywhere you can just pay or sign forloans to take the USMLE

but you see, it is not make believe at all. new schools pop up and are in plans all the time, even though it might not be the best situation for students to go to, and the fact that the carib even takes students that are 50/50 on surviving med school proves my point even more. the schools dont care if u fail, instead they wud take as many as they can possibly get away with and is financially beneficial for them. a carib school shud learn if kids drop out to accept students that are better, but they still dont. they ARE serving as a "pay us to take usmle".

 

[Blanky]

but you see, it is not make believe at all. new schools pop up and are in plans all the time, even though it might not be the best situation for students to go to, and the fact that the carib even takes students that are 50/50 on surviving med school proves my point even more. the schools dont care if u fail, instead they wud take as many as they can possibly get away with and is financially beneficial for them. a carib school shud learn if kids drop out to accept students that are better, but they still dont. they ARE serving as a "pay us to take usmle".

I agree with most of the point you are trying to make but you are wording things too poorly.
Carib will take any warm body who will sign the loan money to them. Thye will then torture and fai you before youever get to the usmle. Unless you pass. Then they will torture and toss you aroundfor years 3/4 and if youare lucky and hard working enough you can match FM IM or Peds and likey not the one you picked but the one you gotlucky to match... Did i miss anything?

 

[Jyggaswoop]

I agree with most of the point you are trying to make but you are wording things too poorly.
Carib will take any warm body who will sign the loan money to them. Thye will then torture and fai you before youever get to the usmle. Unless you pass. Then they will torture and toss you aroundfor years 3/4 and if youare lucky and hard working enough you can match FM IM or Peds and likey not the one you picked but the one you gotlucky to match... Did i miss anything?

hm i guess our main difference is the idea that schools just function as a way for you to pay them and take usmle. you argue they do not because they can fail you if you do not pass. i guess that's fair.

 

[Goro]

hm i guess our main difference is the idea that schools just function as a way for you to pay them and take usmle. you argue they do not because they can fail you if you do not pass. i guess that's fair.

Life doesn't end with Step I.

 

[Isoval]

The problem is instead of building strength in education most of these schools just increase their numbers/ build more schools...

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

This hurts because I know it’s true.

From what I’ve personally seen, most of my fourth year friends have had an interview rate between 40 and 65% of their applications (most applied to 30 or 40). They applied to DO-friendly specialties such as EM, Peds, and Psych.

I think your mileage will vary:
- Some DO schools have MD-tier clinical rotations. Some have the equivalent of rotating through a mobile clinic.
- Some DO schools produce a “known quantity” and have no trouble matching in that state or area. Some do not.
- Some DO schools have very high board scores on USMLE and COMLEX. Some are *significantly* lower.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

In no world will an MD with a 210 match in a university program and in no world would he be chosen to interview over a DO with a 225. No program director is stupid enough to choose an applicant based on those letters and not on performance metrics. I may not know your health care experience but I can tell you first hand that if you ask physicians practicing they will agree on this.

Your post, frankly, is stupid. The two bolded portions highlight exactly how little you know on this topic. PDs absolutely will select MDs with lower metrics, and MDs with 210s absolutely match university programs. Both of those things are simple facts, they aren’t arguable.

All applicants have to do is simply look at DO programs match list. If what you said is true, explain to me how LECOM has matched PM&R to Hopkins, NW, Tufts top programs in the past 5 years. My program and many others match PLENTY of students in university programs in all specialties.

This is a blatant strawman lol. No one said DOs don’t match university programs. Quote it for me. I’ll wait.

Im going to highly highly disagree with this statement. It is statements like these that are leading to the spread misinformation.

Disagree all you want. Facts don’t care if you disagree.

and there are a lot of top institutional MD internal medicine programs that take maybe 1-2 DOs

There are exactly zero DOs at top IM programs. The closest thing is one DO at UTSW.

Another funny point is most of the students pissy about derm and ortho for DO wont have the step for it anyways. So in the end being an MD with a 220 wouldnt help them.

And yet the match rate to ortho for an MD with a 230 is 75% and 63% for an MD with a 220.... so yes actually being an MD with an average board score would help them.

 

[Blanky]

I agree that MD is at an advantage.

 

[chemdoctor]

If only there were dozens of DO vs MD threads hashing this out already.

I wish there was a tool on this website to type it in. Sigh. Maybe next yesr

 

[westsidestoryz]

At the end of the day, its how much effort you put in during school. Dont matter if its DO or MD.
You have heard DOs go into neurosurgery or derm, so you know its not impossible. The difference was, they put their head down, worked their a$$es off and did everything they can to achieve their goal. Sure, it will be a tougher road for DOs but its how badly you want it.

 

[esob]

During one of my DO school interviews, we had a Q & A with someone that does the clinical rotation sites for the school. It came up in the conversation that they had been trying for years to get a particular hospital to have an exclusive deal with the school for clinical rotations (I guess so that there was less competition for slots for rotations from other schools) and the hospital had consistently balked at the proposal because they didn't want to be known as a "DO hospital." This was in a major city. The bias against DO's is alive and well but I do think it is getting better.

 

[eberge3]

Your post, frankly, is stupid. The two bolded portions highlight exactly how little you know on this topic. PDs absolutely will select MDs with lower metrics, and MDs with 210s absolutely match university programs. Both of those things are simple facts, they aren’t arguable..

Ask any practicing physician and they will highly disagree with that statement 10 times out of 10. PD's say that board scores is the highest factor contributing to match right? If the average Family Med USMLE match score is 218, how would a PD choose an MD with a 210 and not interview a 225. PD's want competent, knowledgeable, compassionate physicians. In no world would they accept a applicant who has shown they cannot succeed on the USMLE because they are an MD. If you compare MD with 220 vs a DO with 229 then maybe you have an argument but that statement was just ignorant.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Ask any practicing physician and they will highly disagree with that statement 10 times out of 10.

Wrong. And physicians out in the community, who are far removed from resident selection and academic medicine, have little knowledge on the topic.

If the average Family Med USMLE match score is 218, how would a PD choose an MD with a 210 and not interview a 225.

Why don't you ask them? It literally happens all the time.

In no world would they accept a applicant who has shown they cannot succeed on the USMLE because they are an MD.

A 210 is succeeding on the USMLE. You are a fool.

 

[eberge3]

A 210 is succeeding on the USMLE. You are a fool.

Considering the national USMLE is around a 230 , and considering a 210 is not even a competitive score for pediatrics (227 avg). Psych (218 avg) and family med avg (216) you are wrong.

Go learn more about USMLE scoring before you are giving advice on here

 

[DO2015CA]

Ask any practicing physician and they will highly disagree with that statement 10 times out of 10. PD's say that board scores is the highest factor contributing to match right? If the average Family Med USMLE match score is 218, how would a PD choose an MD with a 210 and not interview a 225. PD's want competent, knowledgeable, compassionate physicians. In no world would they accept a applicant who has shown they cannot succeed on the USMLE because they are an MD. If you compare MD with 220 vs a DO with 229 then maybe you have an argument but that statement was just ignorant.

@AnatomyGrey12 is correct and it has nothing to do with scores. PDs understand DOs clinical education is suspect. MDs education is more standardized with a known product so they will be chosen ahead of us. If scores were all that mattered then Carib grads would match better. Especially since they get a full semester to study for boards.

 

[DO2015CA]

Considering the national USMLE is around a 230 , and considering a 210 is not even a competitive score for pediatrics (227 avg). Psych (218 avg) and family med avg (216) you are wrong.

Go learn more about USMLE scoring before you are giving advice on here

You are wrong.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Considering the national USMLE is around a 230 , and considering a 210 is not even a competitive score for pediatrics (227 avg). Psych (218 avg) and family med avg (216) you are wrong.

Go learn more about USMLE scoring before you are giving advice on here

Once again you are proving how little you actually know.

 

[eberge3]

Once again you are proving how little you actually know.

https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf
USMLE contributes to 94% citing factor towards an applicants match. Look through your own MD charting outcomes in your bio and show me how successful students are with a 210. I think @Goro would agree with me that making statements like MD with 210 is better than a DO with a 225 is foolish. I will fully agree that DO's have a harder time matching, but saying that a PD would take a applicant with a subpar score because he got into a MD program does not make sense.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I think @Goro would agree with me that making statements like MD with 210 is better than a DO with a 225 is foolish. I will fully agree that DO's have a harder time matching, but saying that a PD would take a applicant with a subpar score because he got into a MD program does not make sense.

Ok.... you can continue to put your head in the sand if you wish but stop posting nonsense because your advice is at the point where it could be dangerous to other applicants.

 

[DO2015CA]

https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf
USMLE contributes to 94% citing factor towards an applicants match. Look through your own MD charting outcomes in your bio and show me how successful students are with a 210. I think @Goro would agree with me that making statements like MD with 210 is better than a DO with a 225 is foolish. I will fully agree that DO's have a harder time matching, but saying that a PD would take a applicant with a subpar score because he got into a MD program does not make sense.

@Goro is also great with medical school admissions but will be the first to admit he is not equipped to make statements on residency matching.

Which part of training are you on? Premed? Preclinical?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Look through your own MD charting outcomes in your bio and show me how successful students are with a 210.

How about you tell me what you think charting outcomes is saying? Because it definitely isn't saying what you think it is. The answer to your question is "very successful."

I think @Goro would agree with me that making statements like MD with 210 is better than a DO with a 225 is foolish

No one said they are better, but they do have greater match ability simply because they are an MD.

but saying that a PD would take a applicant with a subpar score because he got into a MD program does not make sense.

It literally happens all the time. You are simply ignoring reality if you think otherwise.

 

[Goro]

https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf
USMLE contributes to 94% citing factor towards an applicants match. Look through your own MD charting outcomes in your bio and show me how successful students are with a 210. I think @Goro would agree with me that making statements like MD with 210 is better than a DO with a 225 is foolish. I will fully agree that DO's have a harder time matching, but saying that a PD would take a applicant with a subpar score because he got into a MD program does not make sense.

Like it or not, there are PDs who will simply refuse to interview or rank DO simply because they're a DO. This is a reality, and why people in this fora are warning you

 

[eberge3]

Like it or not, there are PDs who will simply refuse to interview or rank DO simply because they're a DO. This is a reality, and why people in this fora are warning you

I have agreed with this reality time and time again. The point I am trying to make and all of you can disagree with me, is that the Stigma is overblown on SDN and Reddit and It can influence a lot of applicants .

 

[DO2015CA]

I have agreed with this reality time and time again. The point I am trying to make and all of you can disagree with me, is that the Stigma is overblown on SDN and Reddit and It can influence a lot of applicants .

No one said the stigma isn’t overblown on sdn. We stated programs will take a 210 MD candidate over a 225 DO candidate. I stand by my statement. It is not every program but it is a rule of thumb.

 

[Dr. Basketball]

No one said the stigma isn’t overblown on sdn. We stated programs will take a 210 MD candidate over a 225 DO candidate. I stand by my statement. It is not every program but it is a rule of thumb.

Can you provide a link to where you are getting that information? Not disagreeing, I would just like to know so I can read up on it.

Or is that kind of a "just to be safe" rule of thumb number and not necessarily exact?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Like it or not, there are PDs who will simply refuse to interview or rank DO simply because they're a DO. This is a reality, and why people in this fora are warning you

I completely agree. I know for a fact our local university will absolutely not interview DOs for certain residency programs. This is why I always counsel students to apply to more DO friendly programs. No need to beat your head against the wall. DO bias exists, but its better than it was years ago. You have to make yourself the best applicant possible. You can do it, but it can be an uphill climb for some specialties .Do your homework, find out what you need to do to be competetive for that residency, and make it happen.

 

[DO2015CA]

Can you provide a link to where you are getting that information? Not disagreeing, I would just like to know so I can read up on it.

Or is that kind of a "just to be safe" rule of thumb number and not necessarily exact?

Ill see if I can scrounge something up for you. And as always, it’s just to be safe. I Applied to Harvard this year, was rejected but you always have to apply to Harvard lol.

Going through the match this year, with my stats, I expected a little more love from higher tiered places. I should still match my desired specialty in an academic center but no doubts in my mind that I would’ve gotten more love if I was USMD. I am applying to an extremely DO friendly specialty

 

[Blanky]

Ill see if I can scrounge something up for you. And as always, it’s just to be safe. I Applied to Harvard this year, was rejected but you always have to apply to Harvard lol.

Going through the match this year, with my stats, I expected a little more love from higher tiered places. I should still match my desired specialty in an academic center but no doubts in my mind that I would’ve gotten more love if I was USMD. I am applying an extremely DO friendly specialty

GL!

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Can you provide a link to where you are getting that information? Not disagreeing, I would just like to know so I can read up on it.

Or is that kind of a "just to be safe" rule of thumb number and not necessarily exact?

There is no hard rule. If you want proof then go read the MD Internal Med applicant thread and compare it to the DO internal med applicant thread to where students with similar scores are getting interviews in the two groups.

 

[Dr. Basketball]

Ill see if I can scrounge something up for you. And as always, it’s just to be safe. I Applied to Harvard this year, was rejected but you always have to apply to Harvard lol.

Going through the match this year, with my stats, I expected a little more love from higher tiered places. I should still match my desired specialty in an academic center but no doubts in my mind that I would’ve gotten more love if I was USMD. I am applying to an extremely DO friendly specialty

Oh okay no worries, just curious is all.

Haha well take it from a former Boston guy, cost of living is insane out there anyway!

Best of luck in the match!!

 

[anthony78001]

i went to a DO school. MCAT and grades were a factor but also the doctors I shadowed that I admired were DOs and they had an excellent reputation among colleages and patients. I am going to match into ER which is what i wanted to do my whole life.
If you go to a DO school get through OMM we all get through that and the med school BS hazing. take USMLE 1 and 2 to be as competitive as possible. different fields of medicine are open to DOs some are not. best of luck

 

[Dr. Basketball]

There is no hard rule. If you want proof then go read the MD Internal Med applicant thread and compare it to the DO internal med applicant thread to where students with similar scores are getting interviews in the two groups.

That is one way to go but you never know who is posting what on here. I always like to hear different experiences as well as look at the data whenever possible.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

That is one way to go but you never know who is posting what on here. I always like to hear different experiences as well as look at the data whenever possible.

You aren’t going to find hard data. The closest thing is going to be the PD survey that shows that there are a good number of programs that refuse to interview or rank DOs.

 

[eberge3]

You aren’t going to find hard data. The closest thing is going to be the PD survey that shows that there are a good number of programs that refuse to interview or rank DOs.

Those same programs are not taking MD's with 210's either.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Those same programs are not taking MD's with 210's either.

There are programs across all spectrums and in all fields that will take below average MD applicants before they take a DO. It’s reality.

 

[Dr. Basketball]

There are programs across all spectrums and in all fields that will take below average MD applicants before they take a DO. It’s reality.

Agreed. But I think eberge3´s point is that we don´t know how low of a score MDs are getting by with over DOs for the same residency position. The example of 210 over 225 was put, but we don´t know for sure if those are generally the numbers.

I think it is safer to say, as you just put it, that as a DO you need a higher step 1 score than an MD. How much higher? We don´t know exactly. Is the rule of thumb you mentioned a good way of protecting yourself and being realistic? Obvioulsy. The higher your score is the better chance you have no question.

 

[Dr. Basketball]

oh papi

Didn´t your other account just get blocked for trolling? Surely you must have better things to do with your time. And yes, I called you surely.

 

[eberge3]

There are programs across all spectrums and in all fields that will take below average MD applicants before they take a DO. It’s reality.

Yes absolutely, but There is a difference between below average and a 210. No one is denying reality, but what I do not agree with is the message that as long as you go to an MD school you can barley pass the USMLE (210 is sub 20th percentile) and still have a better outcome then a DO student who has done much better. If that is the case then why do programs like harvard/hopkins anesthesia programs take DO's or Mayo Clinic Family med or Hopkins/Northwestern/ Tufts PmnR.

A lot of applicants make the choice of taking 2-3 years off trying to get into a MD school because of threads like this on SDN, they spend thousands of dollars re applying and getting their MCAT from a 506 to a 511 to only get rejected again. I never said the stigma exists, I never denied that some programs DO not even look at DO apps, but Rush University Internal Med a very solid program for example that takes several DO's each year is not going to even look an MD applicant with that low of a score and many other programs around the country are the same. There are always exceptions.

 

[DO2015CA]

Yes absolutely, but There is a difference between below average and a 210. No one is denying reality, but what I do not agree with is the message that as long as you go to an MD school you can barley pass the USMLE (210 is sub 20th percentile) and still have a better outcome then a DO student who has done much better. If that is the case then why do programs like harvard/hopkins anesthesia programs take DO's or Mayo Clinic Family med or Hopkins/Northwestern/ Tufts PmnR.

A lot of applicants make the choice of taking 2-3 years off trying to get into a MD school because of threads like this on SDN, they spend thousands of dollars re applying and getting their MCAT from a 506 to a 511 to only get rejected again. I never said the stigma exists, I never denied that some programs DO not even look at DO apps, but Rush University Internal Med a very solid program for example that takes several DO's each year is not going to even look an MD applicant with that low of a score and many other programs around the country are the same. There are always exceptions.

Your last statements rings the most true. “There are always exceptions”. We do not know hard numbers. It will depend on the program. For example, if the program has a 215 cutoff score then yes the DO would be the only one eligible. For programs where the cutoff is 200 or 210, then we would argue that the MD is more competitive because numbers aren’t the only thing that matters. MDs have better faculty support to develop their CVs than DOs do.

 

[eberge3]

Your last statements rings the most true. “There are always exceptions”. We do not know hard numbers. It will depend on the program. For example, if the program has a 215 cutoff score then yes the DO would be the only one eligible. For programs where the cutoff is 200 or 210, then we would argue that the MD is more competitive because numbers aren’t the only thing that matters. MDs have better faculty support to develop their CVs than DOs do.

There are two sides to this message. Yes a lot of programs do not even look at DO's and yes DO's have a harder time matching compared to their MD counterparts. If it is true that USMLE is the greatest factor towards one's match I do not believe a barley passing score would be chosen just because the student went to an MD school There are DO schools with higher average MCAT AND GPA then a several MD programs. There are also a lot of noble universities and residencies that take DO's along with plenty of average residencies that take plenty of DO's across the country.

Prospective students reading forums like these need to understand both sides of the coin. Reading "MD students can get **** board scores and still do better then DO" can mislead applicants. I have buddies who thought the same for several years and spent tens of thousand's of dollars on continuing to apply MD cycle because they were afraid of the DO stigma being discussed here. As always the grass is always greener on the otherside and they regretted that choice.

 

[DO2015CA]

There are two sides to this message. Yes a lot of programs do not even look at DO's and yes DO's have a harder time matching compared to their MD counterparts. If it is true that USMLE is the greatest factor towards one's match I do not believe a barley passing score would be chosen just because the student went to an MD school There are DO schools with higher average MCAT AND GPA then a several MD programs. There are also a lot of noble universities and residencies that take DO's along with plenty of average residencies that take plenty of DO's across the country.

Prospective students reading forums like these need to understand both sides of the coin. Reading "MD students can get **** board scores and still do better then DO" can mislead applicants. I have buddies who thought the same for several years and spent tens of thousand's of dollars on continuing to apply MD cycle because they were afraid of the DO stigma being discussed here. As always the grass is always greener on the otherside and they regretted that choice.

I agree with this statement. People need to stop seeing the world as black and white. Splitting is an immature coping mechanism. Not everything is all good or all bad. Trends are better to follow.

Applicants need to evaluate their desires and look at a realistic expectation from their DO education. This is becoming more and more true as DO schools continue to open.

 

[Goro]

Those same programs are not taking MD's with 210's either.

And you know this how???

 

[eberge3]

And you know this how???

MD charting outcomes. Better residencies that refuse to look at DO applications most def do not 20 percentile USMLE scores.

 

[DO2015CA]

MD charting outcomes. Better residencies that refuse to look at DO applications most def do not 20 percentile USMLE scores.

An example of my point. If a harvard student gets a 210 then they will still have all top tier residencies open to them. How often will this happen? Idk. But this is when LOR name's carry weight. Not to mention when their chairs pick up the phone to call residency programs it matters.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

but what I do not agree with is the message that as long as you go to an MD school you can barley pass the USMLE (210 is sub 20th percentile) and still have a better outcome then a DO student who has done much better.

You are denying reality. You need to define "much better" because I'm not comparing 250 DO applicants to 210 MD applicants.

If that is the case then why do programs like harvard/hopkins anesthesia programs take DO's or Mayo Clinic Family med or Hopkins/Northwestern/ Tufts PmnR.

Ok so to refute this you are going to cite these programs where the DOs that match there are complete superstars? And I wouldn't want to do FM at the Mayo clinic. You have no idea what makes a residency good and it goes a lot further than recognizable name.

Rush University Internal Med a very solid program for example

And how do you know this? Only people in IM can tell you that.

Reading "MD students can get **** board scores and still do better then DO" can mislead applicants.

Reality isn't misleading.

MD charting outcomes. Better residencies that refuse to look at DO applications most def do not 20 percentile USMLE scores.

Yeah once again you show how little you know and understand. Charting outcomes does not tell you this. Matches in charting outcomes are not stratified in any way. An IM match to BWH looks the same as the community IM match in Idaho at a hospital with 150 beds. You cannot use charting outcomes to prove your point.

If it is true that USMLE is the greatest factor towards one's match I do not believe a barley passing score would be chosen just because the student went to an MD school

Better start believing

There are DO schools with higher average MCAT AND GPA then a several MD programs

This proves our point and refutes yours. The match list of every DO school in the country combined can't hold a candle to the match lists of those MD schools.

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

I will have to say that I think it’s ironic that almost everyone (99....%) days they want to do primary care at the interview but then after acceptance get on here wishing for neurosurgery.