Should I Join ACEP?

[Tipsy McStagger]

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Members don't see this ad.

Realistically I never paid too much attention to ACEP while a resident. Went to San Diego, get the newsletter or whatever...

But now they want money and I'm wondering, should I give these people my money? What exactly do they do for me? Do they lobby, if so what are they lobbying for? I guess there are some discounted boards review packages and whatnot and that's fine, also a newsletter sure.

What are your thoughts on ACEP?

 

[petetown]

I've had the same questions over the past couple of years. It's weird to pay for something that felt free, even though it wasn't. I still haven't joined after residency but I'm curious to hear what others think.

 

[Apollyon]

I go to ACEP for my CMEs, and to just see another city, eat a lot of steak, and drink a lot of beer. I haven't been a member since it was paid for, for me, by my residency program. I don't notice any difference. I finished res in 2006.

 

[Tipsy McStagger]

I go to ACEP for my CMEs, and to just see another city, eat a lot of steak, and drink a lot of beer. I haven't been a member since it was paid for, for me, by my residency program. I don't notice any difference. I finished res in 2006.

You can still attend conferences without being a member? I'm gonna eat steak and drink beer whether I'm a member or not so I'm good there.

 

[Apollyon]

You can still attend conferences without being a member? I'm gonna eat steak and drink beer member or not so I'm good there.

Yeah, and, if your job provides CME money, the difference in paying for member or non-member is immaterial. Actually, even if you are paying out of pocket, it's still immaterial. You do not have to be a member.

 

[WilcoWorld]

Join AAEM first. They're not under the thumb of CMG's.

 

[Tipsy McStagger]

Join AAEM first. They're not under the thumb of CMG's.

I guess my question stands for them too. What does my membership contribute to? What are they doing with membership dues and what contribution am I making vs what do I get in return?

 

[deleted547339]

My department pays for ACEP. If it didn’t, I wouldn’t join it. I’d join AAEM, they’re not owned by team health, usacs, etc.

 

[Hercules]

The primary value I feel you are likely getting is in the form of having a lobbying voice. If you choose not to join any of these professional organizations (and don’t otherwise participate in the political process) then you are forgoing your chance to have influence on the process. As such you probably shouldn’t complain about the issues you chose not to participate in.

If you do decide you want to have a voice then join whichever organization you feel is both effective in their efforts and aligned with your values (more or less).

 

[Tipsy McStagger]

The primary value I feel you are likely getting is in the form of having a lobbying voice. If you choose not to join any of these professional organizations (and don’t otherwise participate in the political process) then you are forgoing your chance to have influence on the process. As such you probably shouldn’t complain about the issues you chose not to participate in.

If you do decide you want to have a voice then join whichever organization you feel is both effective in their efforts and aligned with your values (more or less).

So they exist primarily for pursuing legislative agendas?

 

[Hercules]

I think there may be some other benefits, but as Apollyon and the others have pointed out above, those benefits may not be worth the cost. There was a lengthy thread recently about ACEP vs AAEM focused on legislation and policies.

 

[Rekt]

ACEP helped start/fund the NP "Fellowship".

Should be enough to never give them your money.

 

[gro2001]

I guess my question stands for them too. What does my membership contribute to? What are they doing with membership dues and what contribution am I making vs what do I get in return?

I won't get into the ACEP vs AAEM debate as this was covered in a recent thread. However, here are my thoughts on the benefits of joining some professional organization:

1) Advocacy. This has been pointed out, but advocacy does not just happen on the legislative level, but also on the hospital administrative level. There are some problems that a lot of emergency physicians run into on a hospital level. Does the hospital agree that EPs should be credentialed to use propofol in the ED? Do EPs need to be ACLS certified? What should be done in the ED for X clinical problem? ACEP and AAEM (and similar organizations for other specialties) put out policies that can help you argue for your position. For example, the whole propofol thing seems to have blown over, but was a bit of an issue a few years ago. The not needing merit badges is not solved, but seems to be gaining momentum. Who is credentialed to do what has quite a bit to do with advocacy on a state/regional level by local branches of ACEP and AAEM. Paying dues allows them to keep doing stuff like that.

2) Status. Both ACEP and AAEM offer fellow status, so you can put some more letters after your name. This may sound silly, but I wouldn't entirely discount it. While it doesn't impress other emergency physicians, it may very well have some effect on an administrator somewhere, especially a non clinical one.

3) Committees. Joining these organizations will allow you to be elected to and serve on national committees in your area of interest. This could be hugely helpful to your career. More so if you are interested in academia, administration, or a leadership role of some kind. Getting involved has been helpful to me, though not through ACEP.

4) Publications. ACEP membership comes with a subscription to Annals of EM. AAEM comes with Journal of EM. SAEM comes with Academic EM. This may be a marginal benefit, particularly if you are still in residency.

 

[Tipsy McStagger]

I won't get into the ACEP vs AAEM debate as this was covered in a recent thread. However, here are my thoughts on the benefits of joining some professional organization:

1) Advocacy. This has been pointed out, but advocacy does not just happen on the legislative level, but also on the hospital administrative level. There are some problems that a lot of emergency physicians run into on a hospital level. Does the hospital agree that EPs should be credentialed to use propofol in the ED? Do EPs need to be ACLS certified? What should be done in the ED for X clinical problem? ACEP and AAEM (and similar organizations for other specialties) put out policies that can help you argue for your position. For example, the whole propofol thing seems to have blown over, but was a bit of an issue a few years ago. The not needing merit badges is not solved, but seems to be gaining momentum. Who is credentialed to do what has quite a bit to do with advocacy on a state/regional level by local branches of ACEP and AAEM. Paying dues allows them to keep doing stuff like that.

2) Status. Both ACEP and AAEM offer fellow status, so you can put some more letters after your name. This may sound silly, but I wouldn't entirely discount it. While it doesn't impress other emergency physicians, it may very well have some effect on an administrator somewhere, especially a non clinical one.

3) Committees. Joining these organizations will allow you to be elected to and serve on national committees in your area of interest. This could be hugely helpful to your career. More so if you are interested in academia, administration, or a leadership role of some kind. Getting involved has been helpful to me, though not through ACEP.

4) Publications. ACEP membership comes with a subscription to Annals of EM. AAEM comes with Journal of EM. SAEM comes with Academic EM. This may be a marginal benefit, particularly if you are still in residency.

This is a great reply. Thank you very much! I’ll look up the other thread on ACEP vs AAEM

 

[deleted109597]

So they exist primarily for pursuing legislative agendas?

The same reason any large national group exists.
AAEM has a better message, but not enough clout. ACEP is the one suing Anthem Blue Cross.

 

[GeneralVeers]

I find ACEP only useful for quoting guidelines (like treatment of asymptomatic hypertension). As far as advocacy I think they do some good, having participated in the past on their Legislative Assembly conferences. They do tend to push for legislation which would benefit the CMGS over individual docs, but there is still some benefit for us.

That being said, I think there is zero value for the average pit doctor. The amount that USACS, Envision, and TeamHealth contribute to ACEP is massive compared to what individual docs provide with their membership fees. I think it's better spent elsewhere with other CME or advocacy actions.

 

[DeadCactus]

The major point of these organizations is to provide a national voice for emergency medicine. ACEP is the national voice for all of emergency medicine: the physicians, the providers, the corporations, etc. While these entities have competing interests at times, we often have similar interests and goals as well. ACEP is our strongest voice, largely because of the lobbying money brought in by the corporations and expanded membership. To me, it's ridiculous to not have a vote in our largest lobby and leave it completely in control of other entities. AAEM is the voice of emergency physicians specifically and advocates for us when we our goals do not align with the goals of the others in ACEP.

You join ACEP to protect you from the government and you join AAEM to protect you from ACEP.

I personally believe you should join both and beyond joining you should be donating additional to at least AAEM's lobbying funding. Physicians seem like the only group in the 1% that don't have the sense to lobby for themselves...

 

[GeneralVeers]

The major point of these organizations is to provide a national voice for emergency medicine. ACEP is the national voice for all of emergency medicine: the physicians, the providers, the corporations, etc. While these entities have competing interests at times, we often have similar interests and goals as well. ACEP is our strongest voice, largely because of the lobbying money brought in by the corporations and expanded membership. To me, it's ridiculous to not have a vote in our largest lobby and leave it completely in control of other entities. AAEM is the voice of emergency physicians specifically and advocates for us when we our goals do not align with the goals of the others in ACEP.

You join ACEP to protect you from the government and you join AAEM to protect you from ACEP.

I personally believe you should join both and beyond joining you should be donating additional to at least AAEM's lobbying funding. Physicians seem like the only group in the 1% that don't have the sense to lobby for themselves...

I don't think there's any reason to join ACEP. They will lobby for things which represent the CMGs regardless of what we do. Donating doesn't give us a voice, since they will continue doing what they want to do anyway. Sometimes the interests of the CMGs match our interests and this is fine. Let them do their thing. All of our individual physician money should go to AAEM. We need to make that organization as powerful as possible to keep ACEP in line.

 

[DeadCactus]

I don't think there's any reason to join ACEP. They will lobby for things which represent the CMGs regardless of what we do. Donating doesn't give us a voice, since they will continue doing what they want to do anyway. Sometimes the interests of the CMGs match our interests and this is fine. Let them do their thing. All of our individual physician money should go to AAEM. We need to make that organization as powerful as possible to keep ACEP in line.

ACEP is the dominant source of lobbying power in our profession due to the funding from CMGs and CMGs will continue to use ACEP because lobbying sounds a low better coming from a physician organization than a healthcare corporation. At the same time, ACEP is a professional organization with membership, voting, committees, and all the other democratic machinations. We can get involved and have some voice in what the public and government are hearing from "our organization" or we can leave it completely incontrol of CMGs. I think we should hold memberships in both and donate beyond beyond the membership fee to AAEM.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

ACEP doesn't care about EM people.
-Kanye West (I think)

 

[Fox800]

AAEM all the way.

 

[cyanide12345678]

I did some research on this yesterday. AAEM really does seem to care about cmg expansion and the individual EM doctor.

I originally planned on not joining either of these (maybe I'm just cheap?). But I think I'll probably end up joining AAEM.

 

[cyanide12345678]

Quite honestly, I didn't even like the definition of an EM doctor by acep.

 

[deleted859535]

The more I think about it, the more I gravitate towards the "both for different reasons" argument.

 

[Doc89]

I’m a proud ACEP member, here’s why:

1. ACEP does SO much for our specialty.
they write the ACEP Clinical Guidelines (which protect our butts in court and justify the most evidence-based practices)

2. They stand up for Emergency Physicians wherever decisions about EM are being made. For example, they just got the Joint Commission to clarify that we CAN eat/drink at our workstations and have a toolkit to help convince your hospital to end this draconian practice. Not to mention how they’re suing Anthem for attacking prudent layperson standard and standing up for us this year with CMS at the RUC to make sure EM Reimbursement doesn’t dramatically decline (because our E/M codes are up for renewal this year)

3. They provide tons of specialized education. Aside from the main Scientific Assembly Conference, they have a Teaching Fellowship and an ED Directors Academy and tons of specialized textbooks

4. And, most importantly, they are by far the biggest and oldest and largest EM organization with almost 40,000 members. When you send your organization’s representatives to speak with Congress or CMS or the Joint Commission, there’s tremendous strength in numbers.

5. Every position they take is Democratic. So if there’s something you don’t agree with, talk to your state ACEP Chapter or go to the fall meeting yourself (next ones in Denver in October), and you can debate and change policy all by yourself.

I hear the “ACEP is in the pocket of CMG” thing all the time and honestly, I don’t get it!
Does ACEP take sponsorship $ from CMGs? Sure. But they also take sponsorship dollars from big academic groups and democratic groups. Just because they don’t discriminate against one particular employer type (which just so happens to employ ~1/3 of EPs) isn’t a bad thing. In fact, I view it as a strength! ACEP membership, sponsors and recruiters at the conference, and the ACEP Board is diverse and represents the breadth of diversity in EM...which is why they can advocate for us as well as they do!

Plus, only a small percentage of their revenue is from said sponsorships...that vast majority is membership dues! And the Immediate Past President of ACEP works at a small democratic group, the current President helped start a democratic group, and the current Vice President is a Professor at a big academic shop.

Lawyers join the bar, and have strong representation. As doctors, I think we need to collectively realize how important it is to band together and speak with one voice (and if we disagree with that voice show up and change the policy). In my mind, as an Emergency Physician, that undoubtedly means joining ACEP!

 

[TooMuchResearch]

I’m a proud ACEP member, here’s why:

1. ACEP does SO much for our specialty.
they write the ACEP Clinical Guidelines (which protect our butts in court and justify the most evidence-based practices)

2. They stand up for Emergency Physicians wherever decisions about EM are being made. For example, they just got the Joint Commission to clarify that we CAN eat/drink at our workstations and have a toolkit to help convince your hospital to end this draconian practice. Not to mention how they’re suing Anthem for attacking prudent layperson standard and standing up for us this year with CMS at the RUC to make sure EM Reimbursement doesn’t dramatically decline (because our E/M codes are up for renewal this year)

3. They provide tons of specialized education. Aside from the main Scientific Assembly Conference, they have a Teaching Fellowship and an ED Directors Academy and tons of specialized textbooks

4. And, most importantly, they are by far the biggest and oldest and largest EM organization with almost 40,000 members. When you send your organization’s representatives to speak with Congress or CMS or the Joint Commission, there’s tremendous strength in numbers.

5. Every position they take is Democratic. So if there’s something you don’t agree with, talk to your state ACEP Chapter or go to the fall meeting yourself (next ones in Denver in October), and you can debate and change policy all by yourself.

I hear the “ACEP is in the pocket of CMG” thing all the time and honestly, I don’t get it!
Does ACEP take sponsorship $ from CMGs? Sure. But they also take sponsorship dollars from big academic groups and democratic groups. Just because they don’t discriminate against one particular employer type (which just so happens to employ ~1/3 of EPs) isn’t a bad thing. In fact, I view it as a strength! ACEP membership, sponsors and recruiters at the conference, and the ACEP Board is diverse and represents the breadth of diversity in EM...which is why they can advocate for us as well as they do!

Plus, only a small percentage of their revenue is from said sponsorships...that vast majority is membership dues! And the Immediate Past President of ACEP works at a small democratic group, the current President helped start a democratic group, and the current Vice President is a Professor at a big academic shop.

Lawyers join the bar, and have strong representation. As doctors, I think we need to collectively realize how important it is to band together and speak with one voice (and if we disagree with that voice show up and change the policy). In my mind, as an Emergency Physician, that undoubtedly means joining ACEP!

They're biased in their support.
They had a long 2 part "discussion" in ACEP Now a couple years ago about CMG vs SDG which was a pretty clear pro CMG puff piece. Add in the full page USACS ads after the Ohio debacle. Their leadership's involvement in the CMGs. Their definition of emergency physician.
If they lose membership numbers, the lobbying efforts won't stop, the CMGs will increase their funding to meet their own needs.

 

[Old_Mil]

Realistically I never paid too much attention to ACEP while a resident....But now they want money and I'm wondering, should I give these people my money? What exactly do they do for me? Do they lobby, if so what are they lobbying for?

What are your thoughts on ACEP?

ACEP is sort of like a political party. You give them your money so that they can turn around and push the interests of people who want to give you less of theirs.

American Academy of Emergency Medicine

The specialty society for board certified emergency physicians.

And, most importantly, they are by far the biggest and oldest and largest EM organization with almost 40,000 members.

Even ACEP's own recruiting materials say that they are in the low 30s, only 20,000 of whom are board certified EPs. So while they are bigger than AAEM (who is just this side of 9,000 at the present time), the gap is narrowing as AAEM grows.