should i just give up?

[dangit]

hello,

i just finished a year of postbacc work at sfsu. i did my undergrad at uc berkeley (or CAL) in chemical biology and graduated in 2006 may with a bcpm of 2.4

taking all these chem classes and not doing well have really hurt my gpa obviously, so now i'm trying to rehabilitate my gpa by taking upper div bio classes at sfsu. however, i cranked out my bcpm gpa (using an amcas gpa calculator for excel) for this year and it's only 2.7 after taking 17units worth of courses (my postbacc gpa so far is 3.98..got an A- in genetics..grrr) i'm going to stick it out for one more year and assuming that i get all A's my bcpm gpa will only be 2.93 (by next year, i'll have taken 37units worth of post bacc classes. when i realized this, i was pretty sad...almost wanted to cry cuz i know that i need at least a 3.0 to have my application even looked at. i'm studying for mcats right now, but if i'm not gonna even have a chance, i see no point in continuing with medical school. is there any hope? please be honest. thank you...

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Nasrudin]

hello,

i just finished a year of postbacc work at sfsu. i did my undergrad at uc berkeley (or CAL) in chemical biology and graduated in 2006 may with a bcpm of 2.4

taking all these chem classes and not doing well have really hurt my gpa obviously, so now i'm trying to rehabilitate my gpa by taking upper div bio classes at sfsu. however, i cranked out my bcpm gpa (using an amcas gpa calculator for excel) for this year and it's only 2.7 after taking 17units worth of courses (my postbacc gpa so far is 3.98..got an A- in genetics..grrr) i'm going to stick it out for one more year and assuming that i get all A's my bcpm gpa will only be 2.93 (by next year, i'll have taken 37units worth of post bacc classes. when i realized this, i was pretty sad...almost wanted to cry cuz i know that i need at least a 3.0 to have my application even looked at. i'm studying for mcats right now, but if i'm not gonna even have a chance, i see no point in continuing with medical school. is there any hope? please be honest. thank you...

Alright now. Take heart. You have done really well at state. So look at that as an example of what you can do. I'm at state too. I'm 33. Your life is just getting started so there's no reason to write your premed obituary just yet.

It's time for you to treat yourself with kindness but at at the same time to get serious about the reality of what its going to take. Shut off the part of your mind that wants to tell yourself you failed just for getting a 2.4 at Berkeley. That's over and done.

I would consider consulting and doing some thinking about your timing for the MCAT. It's good for three years at most schools from what I hear and you've got some more work to do yet. You don't want it to expire before you're ready. SFSU is a great place to start rebuilding your gpa. Your doing great with that so I would keep going until you have a reason to do something else--a masters program, SMP, or medical school.

Unfortunately you need to look realistically at what a low 3.__ will get you. I am working into my mid 30's to address the same issue so don't think I don't know that its not easy. Unless you are Native American, Mexican American, or African American you will need to shoot for a 3.2--3.5 before applying. And even if you are you still be up against much more qualified applicants than you gpa-wise. Are there exceptions....sure. If you've got thousands to burn or are just the gambling type you can pay the price to see what's behind door #3. But all you need to do is look at the MSAR statistics for gpa's below that range to see what odds you'd be facing--not very good.

I think you should consider an SMP or 2+ years of undergrad work. Take your time and enjoy that period. No need to see it as a horrible dead end with a job at walmart for the next 30 years waiting for you. During that time make sure all the other aspects of your application is air tight--research, volunteering, LOR's, the whole deal. 2-3 years will go by and you'll be locked and loaded for success.

Some will tell you to forget about it. Some will blow sunshine up your tail pipe. Only you can decide who to listen to. Your life--it's up to you.

good luck.

 

[wchen84]

Hi Dangit,

I saw your thread, and I couldn't help checking in. First and foremost, never give up If medicine is truly what you want to do, though it may take you a few years longer, you can achieve your goal. If you've just graduated not that long ago from Cal, you're young, and depending on your resources and interests, there are plenty of paths to medicine. You can apply to osteopathic schools, do research with a program (NIH, Cedar Sinai, etc.), get a regular masters or special masters program degree (many of these will grant interviews to their med program provided you earn a certain gpa), teach for america/americorps/peace corps (these applicants I've heard are placed in a separate pile during review), do a post-bacc program... worst case scenario, you're 3-5 years behind your peers who have taken the traditional route, but in the grand scale of things, that's not a very long time~ and this in-between time will undoubtedly afford you a distinct maturity and persective that will enrich you as a person. I know it's hard when you feel you're just at the beginning of your journey, but medicine is a long, hard, arduous road anyway-- enjoy what you can, keep working hard (3.98 is really tremendous!), and best of luck! Every step you take, each night you study-- it all brings you that much closer to med school

 

[TheGalvaniFrog]

BU MAMS also take people with sub-3.0 GPA, provided things like MCAT are up to par.

 

[dangit]

thank you guys... all of you guys. you guys are really encouraging... i never expected that esp since pre med students are really competitive.

 

[thetrueth]

thank you guys... all of you guys. you guys are really encouraging... i never expected that esp since pre med students are really competitive.

firstly, i think you need to grow up a little more. even if everyone here gives you a standing ovation for what you will be doing or EVEN if they all shoot you down like you will be the worst doctor in history. it DOESNT MATTER.

Do what makes you happy, prove it to yourself, make sure its good enough for you, if you can't convince yourself that you'll be a good doctor then it doesnt matter.

No one else is responsible for your life and your happiness but you, so make sure you can answer to yourself that you did everything in your power to make the most of it. If its not good enough for anyone else, screw em. If they can't see it, then they arent worth your time. But you must prove it to yourself. Forget the numbers, forget the stats, do it for you.

 

[berkeleyboy]

hello,

i just finished a year of postbacc work at sfsu. i did my undergrad at uc berkeley (or CAL) in chemical biology and graduated in 2006 may with a bcpm of 2.4

taking all these chem classes and not doing well have really hurt my gpa obviously, so now i'm trying to rehabilitate my gpa by taking upper div bio classes at sfsu. however, i cranked out my bcpm gpa (using an amcas gpa calculator for excel) for this year and it's only 2.7 after taking 17units worth of courses (my postbacc gpa so far is 3.98..got an A- in genetics..grrr) i'm going to stick it out for one more year and assuming that i get all A's my bcpm gpa will only be 2.93 (by next year, i'll have taken 37units worth of post bacc classes. when i realized this, i was pretty sad...almost wanted to cry cuz i know that i need at least a 3.0 to have my application even looked at. i'm studying for mcats right now, but if i'm not gonna even have a chance, i see no point in continuing with medical school. is there any hope? please be honest. thank you...

sounds like what I had to work with. After getting straight As during my last few semesters at Berkeley, I had a 2.65 amcas science and a 3.18 overall. 30 mcat. I took the plunge to an off shore school (st. george's) and did not even decide to waste any time applying to US schools. Best decision of my life. Long story short, I was able to transfer to an LCME accredited school and get my medical degree.

IF you want to be a doctor you can be. There are plenty of roads to a common goal. I know the pre-medical route is extremely discouraging at CAL but don't listen to any of it. You can find a way if you really want it.

I've known all sorts of people go DO, to ireland, austrailia, the philippines, india, mexico, caribbean for medical school and finally either transfer to US medical school or graduate from an off shore school. Others in know do a masters, do a special master's, do research, get a phd before finally getting into a US medical school.

You know what they have in common at the end? They finally all became doctors.

Good luck to you.

 

[Maxprime]

I began my post-bacc as a sub 3.0 and have worked my way up (so long as grades come out on Wed. as I expect) back up to a 3.0 via a 4.0 in post-bacc. Despite my horrendous GPA, I'm starting the PhD portion of my MD/PhD this fall - it's VERY doable.

My encouragement is to cram as much as you can in as little time as possible - realize that you (and I) were both borderline worthless for a few years from an academic standpoint. I have 2 academic careers, before my decision to go into medicine and after.

ADCOMs are mean, but they're not idiots. A person with a bad past with a 35+ MCAT, a 4.0 for the past 2 years in tough classes, and a solid application will get in somewhere.

I have always tried to avoid saying this, but I think it's very true and needs to be said. Coming back from a deficit requires work and aptitude. An average person usually isn't going to be able to beat his classmates in a post-bacc or SMP by working harder because you're in a group of hard-working people. You've shown aptitude and hard work - my suggestions:

1) Be PROUD of your success. For every person that starts out with a 2.5 and ends up with a 3.0, there are an assload more that end up with that same 2.5. Sell yourself. When an ADCOM asks why your grades are low, be honest but reinforce that you've been kicking ass - "My undergraduate grades were low b/c of ____, however my most recent 2 years of medically-relevant classes are a 4.0 in a competitive post-bacc program." KNOW that you are worth admitting and it will help.

2) Continue kicking ass (didn't need to be said)

3) Go after every opportunity you can - apply to SMP's and other graduate programs - they're a great back-door in for bright people. The medical faculty sees you in class kicking ass, first hand - when you apply and an ADCOM asks that faculty member, it's tough to argue with "he/she constantly kicks massive ass in every class I've had him/her for".

It's easy to get down when you look @ everyone else - but remember this. All those people that got in have GPA's of 3.5 (on average). That is NOT a 4.0 (or 3.98 whatever). Maybe they did a 4.0 for a semester, maybe two, but NOT for 2 years. You are outperforming them at the moment, keep it up, kick their asses on the MCAT, and try to hold back the tears at the white coat ceremony because you earned it.

It's not really a them against us, but successful people that used to be idiots (me included) are rare and we have to fight and claw for every inch along the way. DO NOT give up after a year of such great work, build on it. Fighting your way in will make you appreciate medical school. The day you get that letter, your undergrad grades VANISH and you're left with an incredible attitude and work ethic that's covered by a white coat.

 

[Nasrudin]

I began my post-bacc as a sub 3.0 and have worked my way up (so long as grades come out on Wed. as I expect) back up to a 3.0 via a 4.0 in post-bacc. Despite my horrendous GPA, I'm starting the PhD portion of my MD/PhD this fall - it's VERY doable.

My encouragement is to cram as much as you can in as little time as possible - realize that you (and I) were both borderline worthless for a few years from an academic standpoint. I have 2 academic careers, before my decision to go into medicine and after.

ADCOMs are mean, but they're not idiots. A person with a bad past with a 35+ MCAT, a 4.0 for the past 2 years in tough classes, and a solid application will get in somewhere.

I have always tried to avoid saying this, but I think it's very true and needs to be said. Coming back from a deficit requires work and aptitude. An average person usually isn't going to be able to beat his classmates in a post-bacc or SMP by working harder because you're in a group of hard-working people. You've shown aptitude and hard work - my suggestions:

1) Be PROUD of your success. For every person that starts out with a 2.5 and ends up with a 3.0, there are an assload more that end up with that same 2.5. Sell yourself. When an ADCOM asks why your grades are low, be honest but reinforce that you've been kicking ass - "My undergraduate grades were low b/c of ____, however my most recent 2 years of medically-relevant classes are a 4.0 in a competitive post-bacc program." KNOW that you are worth admitting and it will help.

2) Continue kicking ass (didn't need to be said)

3) Go after every opportunity you can - apply to SMP's and other graduate programs - they're a great back-door in for bright people. The medical faculty sees you in class kicking ass, first hand - when you apply and an ADCOM asks that faculty member, it's tough to argue with "he/she constantly kicks massive ass in every class I've had him/her for".

It's easy to get down when you look @ everyone else - but remember this. All those people that got in have GPA's of 3.5 (on average). That is NOT a 4.0 (or 3.98 whatever). Maybe they did a 4.0 for a semester, maybe two, but NOT for 2 years. You are outperforming them at the moment, keep it up, kick their asses on the MCAT, and try to hold back the tears at the white coat ceremony because you earned it.

It's not really a them against us, but successful people that used to be idiots (me included) are rare and we have to fight and claw for every inch along the way. DO NOT give up after a year of such great work, build on it. Fighting your way in will make you appreciate medical school. The day you get that letter, your undergrad grades VANISH and you're left with an incredible attitude and work ethic that's covered by a white coat.

Great Post MaxPrime!!!!

Congrats on your acceptance! I've definitely benefited from your advice here and hope you'll come back from time to time to help out all the reformed idiots out there.

Incidentally, I've also thought something similar about your assessment of aptitude and work ethic. I don't know exactly where on that spectrum I am or where others are so I don't say anything but I think you're right though--when the work load gets huge and you have people more or less equal motivation it comes down to talent.

p.s. One question though. My strategy involves longer gpa repair allowing for a less than ridiculous MCAT score for the simple reason that I am not confident about getting a score like that. My SAT's were completely unremarkable. Speed is not one of my assets. So what's your suggestion to me or someone like me with regards to length of time in repair. I mean let's face it a 35 is in the top percentile of a very difficult test.

 

[Maxprime]

The MCAT, in its current form, can be tight on time - especially verbal. Practice REALLY gets your time down as you stop questioning yourself and just go with what you know. But if speed is an issue for you, I would take that into consideration.

More generally, trust your gut. If you think that you can't kill the MCAT, plan accordingly - most people aren't mature enough to admit that and end up screwing themselves. At the same time, if you get A's in all of your pre-req classes then you know this stuff - you definitely won't bomb it. If your classes are full of pre-meds and curved to a C, they'll probably end up being the average MCAT scorers as well (broad generalization, but statistically they're linearly related).

As for longer GPA repair, I now strongly disagree with this tactic - depending on the individual. For a bright individual, I suggest getting our pre-reqs done ASAP and killing a standardized test to get into graduate school (at a medical campus). Nothing beats having your foot in the door like that. If I was picking students and saw someone w/ an extra year of 4.0 in upper div bio classes versus someone who was doing research for their master's or taking M1 classes, I'd go with the latter almost every time.

Some may disagree with me, but I think that the plan for low-GPA'ers should be to get a year of work behind you that proves to a graduate school that you're worth their time. It's a rough world out there and with a 3.0 or lower, I just don't think there are many opportunities for people like us. Traditionally, you're looking @ 2 years of post-bacc with a 3rd glide year and I think you don't do enough to warrant 3 years.

I'm still talking about us that have really bad GPA's - someone with a 3.2 or 3.3 can move theirs up to a competitive level through 2 years of work. I have 200+ hours of undergrad credits, my GPA is going nowhere in a reasonable amount of time. Do a quick Excel sheet and see where you'll end up after X credits. For me, staying in my post-bacc for the second year would've gotten me from a 3.0 to a 3.05 or something insulting like that for a TON of work - grad school was the obvious choice for me.

Again, go with your gut. No one knows what you can do better than you - with proper planning, some smarts, and a $hit-ton of work, you'll become a medical student - and you will value and love every day of it more than someone who didn't work for it.

If you ever get depressed, go watch Rudy. Don't take no for an answer, don't let someone tell you what you can and can't do. DO NOT GIVE UP under any circumstances if this is your dream. Send someone a PM or post on here and we will threaten personal harm along with encouraging words. If this is truly your dream, you only have one life to do it and you're not getting any younger.

 

[Maxprime]

Almost forgot - I'll be on these boards until I'm too old to understand the technology running them . . . so probably residency.

 

[Nasrudin]

Almost forgot - I'll be on these boards until I'm too old to understand the technology running them . . . so probably residency.

Right on man. Yeah I just made the gpa bulk cut for the u grad total rebuild. I'll plateau at 3.4+ and become immovable for gpa. I'm planning on using a combination of UMASS courses and Harvard Ext. to get it there. A 3.4 is not great but considering the expense and investment of grad school I decided this was my best plan as I'll be working full-time. After that and an MCAT that's it for me. Maybe some reapps with more paid research or volunteering but I think I'll make it with that. I just can't stomach paying for an expensive masters program with a med school bill looming, not to begin repayment until my 40's. I guess a Phd with a stipend would be different but I'm not interested in that path as of yet.

Thanks for the input. I hear you with the "Rudy" suggestion--I'm a sucker for underdog stories.