Should I stay in?

[sysiphusrocks]

USAF HPSP student. My first year (for the second time). Things are not going great.

Talked to my CO, went through options.

After our conversation, I realized I was more upset by possibly being discharged from the AF far more than I was upset by not getting to be a physican (in fact, that kinda makes me feel relieved --- and ashamed. It's a weird emotion).

I was a career changer, after I got laid off from an old job in health policy.

I liked being an EMT-B (which I have done on and off in years past), although I don't think I could support my wife and our (for now) pre-born kid on that and still pay my debts.

My science GPA was somewhere around a 3.0, maybe 2.9? I don't remember. And it was made up exclusively of pre-reqs. My MCAT was 501, but even that marginal score is mostly because I scored in the 99th% on CARS, which somewhat compensated for poorer scores in the hard sciences. I think I got in because I interview really well, had an overall competitive academic resume in a worthless double major; and had a decent professional resume for my age when I was admitted (24 when admitted; now I'm 26 and it's kinda amazing how quickly it no longer looks any good). Point is, I think it might have been a mistake to admit me.

I haven't been dismissed yet, and even if I am, there is an appeal process which is generally successful. But I don't know if it is worth it.

Then again, the job market will probably be unkind to me, since I failed out of med school, so maybe I should fight? I don't know.

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[jurassicpark]

maybe I should fight? I don't know.

Fight, always fight!

I'm sorry things are not going well. Can we ask more particulars? Seems like you were struggling to begin with as you imply this is your second time going through the first year of medical school. Did you seek tutoring? Identify what was making you struggle through? If so, is this still something you can work on and improve? Med school is not race, it's a bloody long marathon with many peaks and valleys.. but if you got your foot through the door you gotta do what it takes to stay in.

Sorry, not to familiar with the rules of HPSP, discharging you from the AF, will you be required to pay them back? They're not going to keep you as an officer if you leave medical school?

 

[sysiphusrocks]

Yes, I sought tutoring, yes it helped, but not enough. We had a semester of (basically) anatomy which I failed last year. Had I done at the beginning of the semester as I did at the end, I would have passed (but marginally). They sent me away and said "come back next year in August for anatomy again." So I audited an anatomy class to get some background.

They switched up curriculum though when I came back, so we just had a semester of (basically) micro, which I failed. The problems this semester were a bit different though. I got bad anxiety; I've even developed some weird nervous ticks which are kinda embarrassing. Also, while I did improve in anatomy, I only really improved in practicals - written exam scores stayed pretty much stagnant (which is why even if I had been doing at the end as I did at the beginning, my pass would still be marginal).

This semester, which was all written exams, my scores were a 50 on test 1, a 70 on exam 2 (which was heavy on critical thinking), a 66 on exam 3, a 61 on exam 4 (which most of the class failed), and 68 on exam 5(a much easier exam). So, I improved over the semester (I realized I was a visual learner and benefited from group study), but if you improve from 50 to 68, who cares?

Edit: Apparently most likely outcome for a failed HPSP is they will discharge you, and then make you repay all the money.

 

[sab3156]

Fight to stay in school, you have to think about your family's financial future.

Are you doing practice questions? Did you use Sketchy for micro? You really need to figure out what is wrong with how you are studying. You should get Boards and Beyond and start learning foundational material, especially if your school is like most DO schools and bad at teaching important material. I have friends who struggled hard due to relying solely on professor material. They benefited from using outside resources, especially for a first run through the subject.

 

[sysiphusrocks]

Fight to stay in school, you have to think about your family's financial future.

Are you doing practice questions? Did you use Sketchy for micro? You really need to figure out what is wrong with how you are studying. You should get Boards and Beyond and start learning foundational material, especially if your school is like most DO schools and bad at teaching important material. I have friends who struggled hard due to relying solely on professor material. They benefited from using outside resources, especially for a first run through the subject.

What I'm worried about is: What if I fight, and I win the chance to retake micro, and I fail again, maybe in my third year 1, maybe in year 2, maybe in year 3 - and then the debt is so much bigger, and my family is in a worse state financially than they would have been had I just sought a different career?

EDit: And yeah, started using sketchy, which got me the improvement from failing bad to failing with honors. Could probably have done more practice questions though.

 

[Goro]

Yes, I sought tutoring, yes it helped, but not enough. We had a semester of (basically) anatomy which I failed last year. Had I done at the beginning of the semester as I did at the end, I would have passed (but marginally). They sent me away and said "come back next year in August for anatomy again." So I audited an anatomy class to get some background.

They switched up curriculum though when I came back, so we just had a semester of (basically) micro, which I failed. The problems this semester were a bit different though. I got bad anxiety; I've even developed some weird nervous ticks which are kinda embarrassing. Also, while I did improve in anatomy, I only really improved in practicals - written exam scores stayed pretty much stagnant (which is why even if I had been doing at the end as I did at the beginning, my pass would still be marginal).

This semester, which was all written exams, my scores were a 50 on test 1, a 70 on exam 2 (which was heavy on critical thinking), a 66 on exam 3, a 61 on exam 4 (which most of the class failed), and 68 on exam 5(a much easier exam). So, I improved over the semester (I realized I was a visual learner and benefited from group study), but if you improve from 50 to 68, who cares?

Edit: Apparently most likely outcome for a failed HPSP is they will discharge you, and then make you repay all the money.

Very sorry to hear of this, but when someone continues to fail after returning from a LOA, it's time to move on.

Will you be penalized for being a med school drop out? well, getting dismissed will look worse, but that's only for other professional schools.

Time for Plan B. Better to bail now and only have one year of debt instead of two.

 

[jurassicpark]

It may still work in your benefit to show a clear improvement. But in two different courses, if you're having trouble with the exams something is not clicking. Whether you're having trouble memorizing all that information, or making the connections as to what the question is asking you. Have you been doing practice questions as well? I think there's a disconnect somewhere that needs to be processed. Anatomy is one of those courses that a lot of first years struggle with due to the deluge of information, but now you've had trouble in two different courses, and the amount of information is just going to keep increasing.

Once you leave, it will be hard to go back, but yeah.. it is realistic to have a back up plan to pay back this debt if all else fails.

 

[sysiphusrocks]

Will you be penalized for being a med school drop out? well, getting dismissed will look worse, but that's only for other professional schools.

So, what is safer? Dropping out or failing out? They haven't decided to dismiss me yet (although it is more likely).

EDIT: I know you cannot speak for the USAF, but in general, for future employers and/or professional programs.

 

[Ultimax]

I want to be honest, and not give out unrealistic advices. This will be the 2nd time you fail first year, that means your chance to pass Step 1 is slim. The military expects you to pay back the loan, with whatever bonus you received. Its better to plan now then continuing forward and not pass step 1.

 

[Goro]

So, what is safer? Dropping out or failing out? They haven't decided to dismiss me yet (although it is more likely).

Withdrawing >>>> failing and being dismissed.

 

[sysiphusrocks]

Withdrawing >>>> failing and being dismissed.

Won't it be kinda irrelevant though? Like (for the sake of argument) I'm most of my way to my master's from when I was in undergrad doing a ba/ma program. They presumably wouldn't just take my word that I withdrew; they'd want my transcripts, and that would show the majority of the credits as being Fs.

So, even if the official reason I left is withdrawal, they will know why I did it.

 

[Goro]

Won't it be kinda irrelevant though? Like (for the sake of argument) I'm most of my way to my master's from when I was in undergrad doing a ba/ma program. They presumably wouldn't just take my word that I withdrew; they'd want my transcripts, and that would show the majority of the credits as being Fs.

So, even if the official reason I left is withdrawal, they will know why I did it.

You can say that you developed health issues (truthfully) or that you decided Medicine wasn't really for you.

Seeing a transcript full of Ws still >>> one of F's.

 

[sysiphusrocks]

Since I'm leaning toward departing I will give an argument for staying:

In both classes, the cause of my failing was written exams. In anatomy, had I received the grades for written exams that I did in micro this semester, I would have passed. Since I significantly improved in both classes, one could anticipate that I would improve even more if I retake them.


All my friends and my wife and my classmates are convinced I can do it. I think they see how hard I work and that I am at least of enough intelligence to get in, and conclude there is no way I could fail. But you know, I'm starting to question that logic. If 5% of students drop out, and then of the 95% remaining, some don't get residencies, and then some of them burn out in the first 10 years, and then some of them go on to be incompetent physicians...clearly there is more to being able to function as a doctor than being "smart" in a generalized sense, and putting in 70+ hour weeks.

 

[jurassicpark]

Since I'm leaning toward departing I will give an argument for staying:

In both classes, the cause of my failing was written exams. In anatomy, had I received the grades for written exams that I did in micro this semester, I would have passed. Since I significantly improved in both classes, one could anticipate that I would improve even more if I retake them.


All my friends and my wife and my classmates are convinced I can do it. I think they see how hard I work and that I am at least of enough intelligence to get in, and conclude there is no way I could fail. But you know, I'm starting to question that logic. If 5% of students drop out, and then of the 95% remaining, some don't get residencies, and then some of them burn out in the first 10 years, and then some of them go on to be incompetent physicians...clearly there is more to being able to function as a doctor than being "smart" in a generalized sense, and putting in 70+ hour weeks.

No, it doesn't take a genius or superman to be a physician. You do need a certain level of intelligence without a doubt. I don't know what the secret is of those who are by no means geniuses make it through medical school (I certainly am faaaar faar from a genius). It does take tremendous work, stamina, etc to get through it for sure. And 70+hours per week is definitely underestimating it btw.

But I don't think it's the number of hours you're putting in. Or at least the QUALITY of hours you're putting in may be a factor. Written exams are EVERYTHING, your steps, your boards. Those will determine your future in medicine and there's an obvious problem. We are not going to able to determine that here on the boards, but there needs to be an absolute complete assessment of what you're doing, what you NEED to be doing, and what you're capable of. You need to find quickly what you're failing those exams, is it you're not understanding the questions? Can't handle the amount of information? Have you tried practice exams and Qbanks to see how you're reading and answering questions and what they're looking for? Also some of those Qbanks definitely explain the reasoning in a way sometimes lectures don't.

 

[sysiphusrocks]

No, it doesn't take a genius or superman to be a physician. You do need a certain level of intelligence without a doubt. I don't know what the secret is of those who are by no means geniuses make it through medical school (I certainly am faaaar faar from a genius). It does take tremendous work, stamina, etc to get through it for sure. And 70+hours per week is definitely underestimating it btw.

But I don't think it's the number of hours you're putting in. Or at least the QUALITY of hours you're putting in may be a factor. Written exams are EVERYTHING, your steps, your boards. Those will determine your future in medicine and there's an obvious problem. We are not going to able to determine that here on the boards, but there needs to be an absolute complete assessment of what you're doing, what you NEED to be doing, and what you're capable of. You need to find quickly what you're failing those exams, is it you're not understanding the questions? Can't handle the amount of information? Have you tried practice exams and Qbanks to see how you're reading and answering questions and what they're looking for? Also some of those Qbanks definitely explain the reasoning in a way sometimes lectures don't.

I gave 70 cuz I'm thinking that is what they think. It's definitely more. And yeah, I should have been using Qbanks more.

But aren't there different kinds of intelligence? Like,the fact that without studying I did better on the non-hard-science parts of the MCAT than did a big big majority of the MCAT takers, but I studied only the hard science parts and did worse than most MCAT takers on those sections which consumed all my study time...I'm wondering whether all forms of proclivity for academic success are actually not infinitely interchangeable.

EDIT: I know this is total med school heresy.

Another EDIT: Pointless digression anyway. It's not of help to re-litigate whether I should have given it a shot. I already did it.

 

[Goro]

My science GPA was somewhere around a 3.0, maybe 2.9? I don't remember. And it was made up exclusively of pre-reqs. My MCAT was 501, but even that marginal score is mostly because I scored in the 99th% on CARS, which somewhat compensated for poorer scores in the hard sciences.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, I sought tutoring, yes it helped, but not enough. We had a semester of (basically) anatomy which I failed last year. Had I done at the beginning of the semester as I did at the end, I would have passed (but marginally). They sent me away and said "come back next year in August for anatomy again." So I audited an anatomy class to get some background.

They switched up curriculum though when I came back, so we just had a semester of (basically) micro, which I failed. The problems this semester were a bit different though. I got bad anxiety; I've even developed some weird nervous ticks which are kinda embarrassing. Also, while I did improve in anatomy, I only really improved in practicals - written exam scores stayed pretty much stagnant (which is why even if I had been doing at the end as I did at the beginning, my pass would still be marginal).

This semester, which was all written exams, my scores were a 50 on test 1, a 70 on exam 2 (which was heavy on critical thinking), a 66 on exam 3, a 61 on exam 4 (which most of the class failed), and 68 on exam 5(a much easier exam). So, I improved over the semester (I realized I was a visual learner and benefited from group study), but if you improve from 50 to 68, who cares?

Since I'm leaning toward departing I will give an argument for staying:

In both classes, the cause of my failing was written exams. In anatomy, had I received the grades for written exams that I did in micro this semester, I would have passed. Since I significantly improved in both classes, one could anticipate that I would improve even more if I retake them.

The logic in you lats post makes little sense. What 'm seeing in the collective are a number of red flags.

GPAs that are in the zone of someone who would struggle in med school. This prediction has come true.

An MCAT score that is only in the "safe zone" for NOT failing out of med school, due to your CARS score. I cant do the mental math, but if you got a 130 in CARS, then other things being equal, that means you had, what a 123 in each of the other sections? That would also put you in high risk territory, especial y if you did poorly in Bio.

Lastly, You may be improving in your exams, but you still have yet to reach a point where you are even barely competent in the materiel, much less display any mastery.

Barely passing your pre-clinical courses puts you into a high risk zone for failing Boards.

Based on all of this, I truly think that it is in your best interests to withdraw.

 

[sysiphusrocks]

GPAs that are in the zone of someone who would struggle in med school. This prediction has come true.

An MCAT score that is only in the "safe zone" for NOT failing out of med school, due to your CARS score. I cant do the mental math, but if you got a 130 in CARS, then other things being equal, that means you had, what a 123 in each of the other sections? That would also put you in high risk territory, especial y if you did poorly in Bio.

Your mental math is pretty good.

If I drop out and the USAF no longer wants me...is it realistic that I could be a nurse? Would an office job or a high school teaching position look askance at me? Are these no longer realistic? I have a lot of options to make 10-15 an hour, but I'm a little worried I won't be able to make rent, monthly payments on loans, and pay for my wife's food during maternity leave, if I'm making 10 bucks an hour.

What is the most realistic path to almost 30,000$ a year for a med-school dropout?

 

[Goro]

Your mental math is pretty good.

If I drop out and the USAF no longer wants me...is it realistic that I could be a nurse? Would an office job or a high school teaching position look askance at me? Are these no longer realistic? I have a lot of options to make 10-15 an hour, but I'm a little worried I won't be able to make rent, monthly payments on loans, and pay for my wife's food during maternity leave, if I'm making 10 bucks an hour.

What is the most realistic path to almost 30,000$ a year for a med-school dropout?

Career advice is not my forte
But med school dropouts do get jobs in other areas. I believe that you'll have trouble with professional schools. Try a vocational program. My plumber and HVAC guys make beaucoup bucks.

 

[sysiphusrocks]

Career advice is not my forte
But med school dropouts do get jobs in other areas. I believe that you'll have trouble with professional schools. Try a vocational program. My plumber and HVAC guys make beaucoup bucks.

Kills me that I could have just eeked out high school, gone to trade school, spared myself the last eight years of difficult jobs, hard classes, med school, personal humiliation, and been in much better financial shape than I am with the same type of job. But, that's the price you pay. Sucks to suck, as they say.

 

[Goro]

Kills me that I could have just eeked out high school, gone to trade school, spared myself the last eight years of difficult jobs, hard classes, med school, personal humiliation, and been in much better financial shape than I am with the same type of job. But, that's the price you pay. Sucks to suck, as they say.

Don't look back. Look, you tried your best, and that's all you can do.

 

[samac]

I know one person in a similar boat. He failed anatomy first semester then ended up in my class. He made it through the first semester stuff fine but failed in second semester. He ended up in the class below me. And he failed in his second year.
I’m not saying this to be awful, but even your anatomy written scores didn’t improve much. Boards are rough, and with this track record so far it would be fantasizing to say you’d blow them out of the water.
I’m not trying to be a pessimist but I don’t want to say “oh you can do it!” and you take on more debt for little reason.
It just seems like maybe it’s time to cut your losses before you get further in the hole.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

USAF HPSP student. My first year (for the second time). Things are not going great.

Talked to my CO, went through options.

After our conversation, I realized I was more upset by possibly being discharged from the AF far more than I was upset by not getting to be a physican (in fact, that kinda makes me feel relieved --- and ashamed. It's a weird emotion).

I was a career changer, after I got laid off from an old job in health policy.

I liked being an EMT-B (which I have done on and off in years past), although I don't think I could support my wife and our (for now) pre-born kid on that and still pay my debts.

My science GPA was somewhere around a 3.0, maybe 2.9? I don't remember. And it was made up exclusively of pre-reqs. My MCAT was 501, but even that marginal score is mostly because I scored in the 99th% on CARS, which somewhat compensated for poorer scores in the hard sciences. I think I got in because I interview really well, had an overall competitive academic resume in a worthless double major; and had a decent professional resume for my age when I was admitted (24 when admitted; now I'm 26 and it's kinda amazing how quickly it no longer looks any good). Point is, I think it might have been a mistake to admit me.

I haven't been dismissed yet, and even if I am, there is an appeal process which is generally successful. But I don't know if it is worth it.

Then again, the job market will probably be unkind to me, since I failed out of med school, so maybe I should fight? I don't know.

If you fail out so be it. I considered quitting seriously at one point. It became abundantly clear to me after a couple months back in previous career that I was going to regret it if I didnt come back.
But especially when you are HPSP, and the military just makes you pay back time, I think you have even more incentive to keep going. Let the process work itself out. You will either become a physician or you will end up back in airforce anyway. Theres no reason to quit IMO.

Maybe I am missunderstanding HPSP but I thought they allowed you to pay back time you fail out and want to be commissioned still.

 

[Espressso]

OP, really sorry about your struggles. Don't forget that you're not alone. More people struggle throughout school than we all like to admit.

As for the HPSP, you might want to talk to someone you can trust in the USAF about your situation, (omitting details of course), and ask about how it works out if you do end up withdrawing from school.

The potential debt is crushing. And as others have mentioned, your family does and should come first. No one on here can give you a proper path forward, just ideas. Only you can figure that next move out. But I applaud you for being really introspective about your situation.

Best of luck.

 

[sysiphusrocks]

If you fail out so be it. I considered quitting seriously at one point. It became abundantly clear to me after a couple months back in previous career that I was going to regret it if I didnt come back.
But especially when you are HPSP, and the military just makes you pay back time, I think you have even more incentive to keep going. Let the process work itself out. You will either become a physician or you will end up back in airforce anyway. Theres no reason to quit IMO.

Maybe I am missunderstanding HPSP but I thought they allowed you to pay back time you fail out and want to be commissioned still.

Unfortunately, they are more likely to fire you and make you pay back all the debt.

If it were guaranteed that USAF would just take me no matter what, I would take your advice at the drop f a hat.

 

[Ultimax]

Military HPSP does not work like that, they commission you based on a particular skill set. With HPSP, you get commissioned as a physician when you graduate. If you fail, they will not just commission you just because you already have a bachelor degree and failed medical school. I am sure that when OP signed the contract, there was a requirement to pay back all bonuses and tuitions. Even if OP decide to join military afterward, the requirement still holds.

 

[jurassicpark]

Military HPSP does not work like that, they commission you based on a particular skill set. With HPSP, you get commissioned as a physician when you graduate. If you fail, they will not just commission you just because you already have a bachelor degree and failed medical school. I am sure that when OP signed the contract, there was a requirement to pay back all bonuses and tuitions. Even if OP decide to join military afterward, the requirement still holds.

I thought with HPSP you are commissioned as a 2nd Lt in the beginning? If so, if one gets discharged from the military how will that reflect on future job applications, background searches, etc? Also, what if said person wants to the join the military again under different circumstances?

 

[Ultimax]

You get paid during medical school as a 2LT, you dont get commissioned as a 2LT. You get commissioned as a CPT upon graduating from medical school and start residency program. You get discharged (likely honorable or genereal) if you fail medical school and not because of other violations (DUI, positive drug test). Since you will have to pass physical test and background check before you get accepted to HPSP, I am not sure if getting discharged out of HPSP program will affect your chance to rejoin in the future. But as I am concerned, it will not affect your ability to get jobs in the federal system because you get honorable/general discharge.

 

[sysiphusrocks]

You get paid during medical school as a 2LT, you dont get commissioned as a 2LT. You get commissioned as a CPT upon graduating from medical school and start residency program. You get discharged (likely honorable or genereal) if you fail medical school and not because of other violations (DUI, positive drug test). Since you will have to pass physical test and background check before you get accepted to HPSP, I am not sure if getting discharged out of HPSP program will affect your chance to rejoin in the future. But as I am concerned, it will not affect your ability to get jobs in the federal system because you get honorable/general discharge.

Wait, do you think a discharge would hurt me in federal system jobs? Because I worked in government (well, as a consultant, etc) before med school and that was kinda my office job fall-back.

 

[Ultimax]

You are fine. You are technically not in the military yet as you have not yet commissioned, so you are not discharged from the military based on that. The contract will just be voided. As long as you pay back what they gave you, your relationship with the military ends there. You wont have any problems applying for jobs in the federal system.