Should I stay or should I go (on internship)

[kathygeiss]

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Hi everyone!

I'm really struggling with the decision about whether or not to apply for internship this year. I know this is a really personal decision and there are a lot of unknowns, but I still think getting perspectives of those who know about the process could be really helpful for me.

My main reasons for wanting to leave are: Although I can think of plenty of ways I could fill up an extra year, I can't think of anything that I would NEED to get out of that year. Morale is also pretty low in my program right now.

My main reason for wanting to stay is that I only have one first-author publication. I could work on publishing more if I stayed.

As a little of a background, my long term goal is to be able to do research in some capacity (not faculty, but being a team scientist or working on a grant would be ideal, at least for part of the time).
At the time of application, I would have:
5 publications, 1 first author

I am really grappling with whether I should apply now, and possibly not be as competitive as I could be in a year, or whether I should wait, build my experiences, in hopes that that would increase my chances. Also, I know that we all want to get a great internship, but I really don't know HOW important it is to get the very best internship you could possibly get, or if it is enough to get a good internship that fits your needs.

It would be so helpful hearing from those with more insight into the application process than I do, and perhaps those who struggled with this choice in the past and came out the other end. Thank you for reading!

 

[WisNeuro]

Apply, from a cursory glance, you'll be competitive, as long as you apply to a range of places. Worst case scenario, don't match, and you beef up the pubs.

 

[CheetahGirl]

I'm really struggling with the decision about whether or not to apply for internship this year.

Where are you in your dissertation process?

 

[kathygeiss]

I'll be proposing at the beginning of fall. If all goes as planned, I might begin to collect data before that, and data collection should thankfully be relatively quick (a few months). Plan B though, if I have to use a different sample, would mean data collection taking much longer (probably Fall & spring semesters).

 

[Ollie123]

As with all things in academia, shoot for the stars and learn not to cry about rejections.

Aside from a few hundred dollars in application fees, there is little tangible harm in applying. It would suck to pay for a ton of travel and not match, but that is unlikely (most people who don't match seem to get limited interviews). If you want, you could apply selectively to places you are super-excited about in the first year and plan to reapply more broadly if need be.

You should be competitive. Maybe not "OMG this person is a superstar" competitive, but 5 pubs isn't a bad showing and is more than many will have - even at AMCs. You should plan on doing a post-doc (unless your pub is in science/nature), but those positions are a dime a dozen for anyone with remotely decent research experience.

 

[CheetahGirl]

I'll be proposing at the beginning of September. If all goes as planned, I might begin to collect data before that, and data collection should thankfully be relatively quick (a few months). Plan B though, if I have to use a different sample, would mean data collection taking much longer (probably Fall & spring semesters).

I have The Clash song in my head now.

So figuring your dissertation progress into the decision of whether to stay or go on internship is important. If you do not go on internship, I would finish as much of your dissertation as possible. Internship sites like it when you are further long in your dissertation (less time off to collect data, meet with your advisors, scheduling your defense). Also, on internship, usually dissertations fall by the wayside. I needed to collect data on internship, and I did not defend until a few months after internship ended (because I just could not focus on finishing everything and then writing it up...not enough hours in the day).

Also, another thing that may be helpful is not to gauge your success on the success of those around you (I know, I know...how can you help but not), but when you and your cohort go on interviews...you are all unique, with different training interests, different publications/research interest, and you each have your own story to tell. So perhaps you will not lose your morale (as you mentioned above) if you stay, unless you allow yourself to disparage your decisions.

I agree with above, you could always apply and see how it goes. At least it will be a pretty good dress rehearsal. I personally wouldn't be able to go through match more times than necessary, but it could be right for you if that's what you decide. Good luck!

 

[Doctor-S]

Hi everyone!

I'm really struggling with the decision about whether or not to apply for internship this year.

It would be so helpful hearing from those with more insight into the application process than I do, and perhaps those who struggled with this choice in the past and came out the other end. Thank you for reading!

Hello kg,

1. When applying to a well-regarded AMC internship, it is often important to show evidence indicative of research productivity - especially since you're interested in being a researcher anyway. So, credible publication credits will likely be important.

2. Have you completed relevant clinical practicums as a graduate student?

In other words, have you worked in a medical center setting (such as psychiatry, neurology, PM&R) as a graduate student? Do you have neuropsychology experience? RCT experience? Psychotherapy experience; including actual patient assessment and intervention?

These types of credentials will make you much more competitive for AMC internships. Of course, if you feel as if you need stronger credentials (or more experience) before applying to an AMC internship, then feel free to converse with your graduate advisor (or with some AMCs) to determine *what* you might still need to *do* to be considered "competitive" for an AMC internship.

Thank you.

 

[PsychPhDone]

If you can get the diss proposed and data collected before internship would start, I'd advise giving it a shot this round. You can get more research papers/symposia on fellowship. Look for internships that get people the postdoc experiences you'd like.

 

[kathygeiss]

Thanks, everyone, for your time and feedback. I really appreciate it.

Doctor-S: I have completed several assessment practica and therapy practica. I'm not a neuropsych person.

It sounds like some are suggesting the option of applying to only sites I'm really excited about, seeing how it goes, with the nothing to lose mentality. That's definitely a good option - though I have to admit that the prospect of not matching is a bit of a deterrent there.

I'd still love to hear any other perspectives, including from people who might have also struggled with this. I'm also super curious to hear perspectives on the question of: HOW important is it to get the very best internship you could possibly get, or is it enough to get a good internship that fits your needs. It seems like Ollie is indicating that I could likely get a research post-doc after internship either way? I just definitely don't want to close the door on staying in research.

Thanks again!

 

[erg923]

I think people really overestimate the long-term importance of the internship. Unless one is/will be floating in circles in which name dropping is needed to be successful, which is not really common outside of academia.

 

[CheetahGirl]

..

 

[PsyDr]

In a lot of ways you are in an enviable postion. You can apply now. The worst they can say is, "No. We want better credentials." If that happens t sounds like you have the ability to spend a year custom tailoring your credentials to their expectations. I've never served on an internship committee, but I would imagine a personal statement Like that would go over well.

For some reason this reminds me of the story of one of the original behaioralists getting over his fear of women by just approaching 100 of them.

 

[kathygeiss]

haha, yes, but someone must agree with me that the fear of every single person in your program knowing you didn't match can be pretty real.

 

[CheetahGirl]

1) I have to admit that the "public shaming" aspect of not matching is a bit of a deterrent there, especially in my program where almost 100% match.

2) is it enough to get a good internship that fits your needs.

3) It seems like Ollie is indicating that I could likely get a research post-doc after internship either way? I just definitely don't want to close the door on staying in research.

1) This is your perception...it is not a deterrent unless you allow it to be (c'mon, you know that). And who's to say you won't be included in that 100%. Internship match is no time for questioning your confidence...you have to boost that confidence right about now. And believe in yourself (goodness, I sound like a life-coach, now).

2) Exactly. You only need to do very well, learn a ton, and make good relationships. Publish your dissertation research along with way, see if there are research opportunities at the 'best-fit-for-me' internship site, and jump on them. Then....

3) Exactly this. Research post-doc post internship will get you where you want to go IMO, if you want an AMC career.

 

[deleted343839]

Another vote for just go for it.

In the worst case scenario, if you don't match, people will probably just think you applied a bit early, and that has nothing to do with your ability or long-term potential.

 

[Ollie123]

I think people really overestimate the long-term importance of the internship. Unless one is/will be floating in circles in which name dropping is needed to be successful, which is not really common outside of academia.

And inside academia, people care where you did graduate school and post-doc, but no one cares even the tiniest sliver of a bit where you were an intern as long as it was APA accredited. Heck, depending on the department you could probably skip out of internship altogether, forever abandon hopes of licensure and they wouldn't care at all. My internship site list was basically a list of post-docs that had the least objectionable internships attached or nearby, since my wife and I were trying to avoid a move in between if possible. We ended up moving anyways (and it was for the best since our new location is infinitely better both personally and professionally). But yeah....people build it up to be a lot more than it is because of the difficulties with matching in recent years. Don't do that.

I was just indicating that if you are a reasonably well-connected and well-respected researcher with geographic flexibility, its not a question of "can I find a good research post-doc." I was pretty much deliberately avoiding casting a wide net, but know I could have probably just talked to 4-5 people I knew from conferences who would have found funding to bring me on. Post-docs are cheap labor, people love them. Don't assume that just because something isn't advertised it doesn't exist, the big AMCs can always cobble something together (whether or not its the right position FOR YOU is a separate matter of course). I was outright told by several folks "We don't do a great job getting the word out, but we ALWAYS have money to take people. Just let us know if you are interested."

Note that none of this may apply if you aren't on your way to being a known entity among people with R01s. If you are on a first-name basis with multiple people who have millions of dollars in grant funding (or even if you aren't but your mentor is)....you won't have trouble finding a research post-doc.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It sounds like some are suggesting the option of applying to only sites I'm really excited about, seeing how it goes, with the nothing to lose mentality. That's definitely a good option - though I have to admit that the "public shaming" aspect of not matching is a bit of a deterrent there, especially in my program where almost 100% match.

I took this approach and didn't match, which stung since all of my friends matched. I share this not to dissuade you, but bc the feedback I received from multiple sites was I was right there and they got their 1st choice, so it really wasn't an issue of not being good enough. I only applied to Boston Consortium, OK Health Sciences, Brown, Vanderbilt Consortium, WVU, and similar sites bc I didn't want to settle (interviews at 6-7 of 10ish sites). I had 1 pub, 3-4 posters, 1 symposium, and a couple things under review. This was 8+ yrs ago, so I'm not sure what the expectations are now for sites; APPIC shares that data every year though.

Having some productivity is fine for the clinical sites, though they matter much more at places like Brown and MUSC (the latter I skipped bc I didn't have the pub hx to hang). I would have skipped Brown, but one of my letter writers was a former intern and "encouraged" me to apply, though I didn't get offered an interview. We placed interns there on prior years, which can be very helpful for certain sites. Talk with your DCT about sites that have taken students over the years from your program, as that can offer some idea of "friendly to your program" sites.

Dissertation status is a bigger deal than many students realize. Sites want their interns to graduate on time and secure post-docs bc anything less reflects poorly on the site. Our DCT gave us protected time (up to 20%) to ensure everyobe finished. I wouldn't say this is typical, but it reinforced the importance of everyone graduating on time.

 

[DrMikeP]

I'd recommend applying now and seeing what happens. I'd invite you for an interview at my site, if the rest of your app was similarly positive (and if I was still there.) Your stats look competitive (assuming your school isn't one of those that can't place over half of their students). There is not much of a stigma about being a reapplicant and if you wait until next year there is no guarantee you'll get placed and then it would be 3 years extra vs 1 or 2. When applying I always recommend to students make 1/3 of applications in your specialty to lower competitive sites, 1/3 to moderately competitive, and 1/3 to highly competitive and don't limit yourself to a small geography!

Also, Kathy you might want to change your SDN user name/ID??????? I am assuming you used your real name and there can be MUCH to be said for no one knowing who you are here. There are some here who are internship directors, professionals, and even jerks and you'd not want something you post to cause you undue personal distress. Up to you but it's just a good measure.

Best of Luck!

Hi everyone!

I'm really struggling with the decision about whether or not to apply for internship this year. I know this is a really personal decision and there are a lot of unknowns, but I still think getting perspectives of those who know about the process could be really helpful for me, since I'm having a hard time finding people in my program to talk to that wouldn't be biased.

My main reasons for wanting to leave are: Morale is pretty low in my program and this year has been pretty miserable for me. Also, although I can think of plenty of ways I could fill up an extra year, I can't think of anything that I would NEED to get out of that year.

My main reason for wanting to stay is that I'm not sure how competitive I am right now. My #1 concern is that I only have one first-author publication. I also haven't done any oral presentations (e.g., symposia) at a conference, and I could get that experience if I stayed.

As a little of a background, I am interested in AMCs/consortia, ideally with some research opportunities. My long term goal is to be able to do research in some capacity (not faculty, but being a team scientist or working on a grant would be ideal, at least for part of the time).
At the time of application, I would have:
~800 face-to-face hours, mostly intervention, maybe ~200 of those assessment
5 publications, 1 first author with 3 publications under review (1 of the under review is first author, about to submit)

I am really grappling with whether I should apply now, and possibly not be as competitive as I could be in a year, or whether I should wait, build my experiences, in hopes that that would increase my chances. It's a hard decision because I also don't know if my morale is going to worsen, stay the same, or get better should I take an extra year. Also, I know that we all want to get a great internship, but I really don't know HOW important it is to get the very best internship you could possibly get, or if it is enough to get a good internship that fits your needs.

It would be so helpful hearing from those with more insight into the application process than I do, and perhaps those who struggled with this choice in the past and came out the other end. Thank you for reading!

 

[Kadhir]

Apply. Use the thirds rule mentioned above. Program morale is big, and if the environment is getting toxic and if you have the stats (you do), the choice seems pretty clear.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Agree with the above--you're competitive as is based on what you've posted. Especially if you can finish your data collection and make good progress on (or even complete) your dissertation before leaving, go ahead and apply this year.

 

[kathygeiss]

Thank you all very much. Your perspectives have been extremely helpful. I am going to apply and try to do the thirds rule (though it's been really hard for me to figure out how competitive sites are).

DrMike- it's nice of you to be concerned but never fear- Kathy Geiss is actually just a character on 30 Rock (tv show) 😉

 

[DrMikeP]

Thank you all very much. Your perspectives have been extremely helpful. I am going to apply and try to do the thirds rule (though it's been really hard for me to figure out how competitive sites are).

DrMike- it's nice of you to be concerned but never fear- Kathy Geiss is actually just a character on 30 Rock (tv show) 😉

Ohhhh gotcha... never know these days. Your school should be able to give you a list of places they've placed people. They should be able to help with figuring out competitiveness as well. A good rule of thumb is more prestigious hospitals affiliated with major universities are highly competitive. Community mental health that takes a ton of people in less than desirable areas, but that have a lower number of applicants is least competitive. Look through aapic at the numbers/stats for each site.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[singasongofjoy]

Seems like you've reached a decision then - best of luck!!! I did a totally clinical internship and managed to get an excellent research post-doc next year at my first choice, as did some of my fellow interns who were also interested in research. So don't feel like you're closing a window if you don't end up at a researchy internship. And I second that on-campus environment is a big factor in your case- if it's not healthy, my advice would be to do your best to get out now. If you don't then, oh well; applying this year would make next year's process that much easier and less intimidating. Good luck!

 

[wandergirl]

I agree with apply now, especially since you don't have a very strong reason to spend another year in grad school. I also think you are competitive, although my understanding is that peds at AMCs can be hard. However, if you don't match, you'll be in a great position next year. Most people I know who did not match first year got their first choice site the next year - in large part the experience you gain through the process helps, plus the sites really get to know you. I agree as well that you should find out where other students from your program have gone. My program maintained a big spreadsheet with all the places past students had interviewed and matched at.

 

[kathygeiss]

Again, can't thank you all enough! Singasongofjoy, that info is really helpful - I'm glad to hear that I could focus on clinical work on internship and still be competitive for a research post-doc. My adviser also echoed that sentiment - realizing I have a lot to learn about career life beyond grad school!