Should I try to go to med school?

[frood]

I've lurked here for a month or two now, but just opened an account. I hope it's okay if I ask a question that seems to get asked a lot. My question is whether you'd go back to med school if you were me?

I'm 41, graduated from UC Berkeley, molecular and cell biology major, did all my pre-med prerequisites back then, 3.9 GPA (both science and overall GPA). I did some research in oncology as an undergrad and even had a small publication. When I graduated, start-ups and the internet in general were taking off, so I ended up working for a well-known Silicon Valley company. I'm still working in the tech/computer industry. I make okay but not great money, no debt, I'm married, my wife is a nurse, no kids, and we don't own a house but just rent. However, I'm somewhat stuck in this career now. It's a good gig, I get along with everyone, but I just don't see myself advancing much further where I am. Not unless I want to go into more of a managerial role, but I'm really not interested in that at all. I'm in good health, I run 2-3x per week, and I hit the gym to lift weights 2-3x per week.

I'm considering going to med school since that's what I originally wanted to do in college. But I know it's been too long so I'd probably have to redo all my pre-med prerequisites. It should be possible for me to work part-time from home so I can focus on finishing my prerequisites while maintaining enough of an income to survive. Or my wife could support us, and she's fine with that, though we might have to downsize our life. If I go full-time or do a post-bacc course, then from what I understand it's about a 2 year commitment, give or take. But if I'm working part-time, it might take me an extra year. Call it 3 years from now. If I get accepted to med school, I'll be around 44 years old.

I'm somewhat familiar with the medical world in general from my wife but also from a couple of relatives who are physicians including a close cousin. My cousin is a hematologist and oncologist now. That's what I'd like to become as well since I've always dreamed of becoming an oncologist since I was a kid. My cousin tells me it's a tough grind to make it through med school, residency, and fellowship. I've heard lots of horror stories from my cousin and others including working ridiculous 80+ hours per week at times, often having to go into the hospital in the middle of the night, dealing with the psychological and emotional strain if not outright abuse that happens from patients, attending physicians, and other staff, and much more. I assume all this is just the tip of the iceberg too and that things are probably even worse when you have to experience them yourself. And my wife is very supportive, but I realize that's easy to say now, and probably much harder when we're living through everything.

Nevertheless, I've still dreamed of becoming an oncologist. However, I'd be around 44 when starting med school, 48 when starting my residency in internal medicine I believe, then 51 when starting my oncology fellowship, then 54 when starting as a new attending oncologist. If I don't make it to oncology, if residency becomes too exhausting for me, then I would be happy working in internal medicine starting at age 51 because my cousin tells me I can still help treat cancer in internal medicine. I'd love to never retire.

All this would presumably put us into considerable debt though. But I'd try to aim for the cheapest med school I can get into.

I'd love to hear your thoughts? Thank you!

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[aformerstudent]

Looks like you have the grades so that's a go. Nobody can tell you however if it's the right decision though. You have to decide that. I know people at your age that are currently in med school and even people older.

 

[Blanky]

GPA is great and everything sounds good. I am curious if you have completed some/most of the prereqs and how long ago that was?

 

[frood]

Thanks everyone! I really appreciate it. I did do all my prereqs but that was now 20 years ago (1994-1998). It'd be great if I didn't have to redo them, but I thought I would since they're so old?

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but how would I contact goro?

If I have to redo my prereqs, can I just redo them at a local community college and get letters from community college professors? It's much cheaper than if I do extension classes at a University of California campus. Thoughts?

 

[Skiiiiiing]

Thanks everyone! I really appreciate it. I did do all my prereqs but that was now 20 years ago (1994-1998). It'd be great if I didn't have to redo them, but I thought I would since they're so old?

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but how would I contact goro?

If I have to redo my prereqs, can I just redo them at a local community college and get letters from community college professors? It's much cheaper than if I do extension classes at a University of California campus. Thoughts?

With a 3.9 I would take at a university. If you do well on the MCAT the sky is the limit

 

[DocJanItor]

If you've already done the prereqs once at a university then there's no question of your ability. I took mine at a CC and got 2/3 letters from those professors. CC only looks bad if there's a question of academic rigor.

 

[CareerNumTwo]

Ask goro once his account hold lifts, he offends some with his straight talk...which is why his advice is so valuable..

I was wondering why goro's account was flagged... thanks.

 

[NonTrad16]

I would reach out to some schools and ask if they have time limits for courses. Unfortunately, CA is very competitive for medical school, so you could contact UC schools, but should recognize that you might need to move if you want to go through with it. With your great GPA, as long as you do well on the MCAT, you shouldn't need to do any requirements at universities to "prove your worth" (CC is fine), understanding that some schools do not accept CC credits. (Most seem to -- stay away from online courses unless you're very diligent and make sure possible schools would accept them.) Some schools have no time limits, some have 7-10 year cutoffs, etc. Regardless, you probably don't have every requirement, so even if your courses are valid you'd likely need to take something (be it biochem, a humanities, etc).

More generally:
You don't have kids, but do you plan on any?
You don't want to take on a managerial role at work -- why not? (As a physician you're the one calling shots that can have life and death implications, so... that just jumped out as interesting)
Understand that you may have to totally upend your life to attend school, again for residency, and possibly again for fellowship.
Additionally, your financial "break even" point will be even further out (considering opportunity cost from not working for 4 years, plus 150-200k-more tuition, any interest on debt). So you may want to work forever, but you'd likely need to work longer than if you stuck to your current path.

If you really want to do it, and your wife is supportive, I say more power to you and do what makes you happy. (I just made the leap, and am so far happy to have done so, but it's still very early for me.) It's definitely a long road though, and you'll need to really want it. For whatever reason, I'm not getting that vibe from your posts so far.

 

[Skiiiiiing]

If you've already done the prereqs once at a university then there's no question of your ability. I took mine at a CC and got 2/3 letters from those professors. CC only looks bad if there's a question of academic rigor.

Upper half of MD tends to flat reject CC's

A 3.9 from UCB with a high MCAT is competitive for Ivies

 

[DocJanItor]

Upper half of MD tends to flat reject CC's

A 3.9 from UCB with a high MCAT is competitive for Ivies

That's interesting, because I'm an M1 at a top 40. Should I tell them they've made a horrible mistake?

 

[Blanky]

Upper half of MD tends to flat reject CC's

A 3.9 from UCB with a high MCAT is competitive for Ivies

I feel like this could be true so I'll post it as fact?

 

[BusinessAndMedicine]

If I don't make it to oncology, if residency becomes too exhausting for me, then I would be happy working in internal medicine starting at age 51 because my cousin tells me I can still help treat cancer in internal medicine.

IM folks don't treat cancer.

 

[kardom11]

Thanks everyone! I really appreciate it. I did do all my prereqs but that was now 20 years ago (1994-1998). It'd be great if I didn't have to redo them, but I thought I would since they're so old?

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but how would I contact goro?

If I have to redo my prereqs, can I just redo them at a local community college and get letters from community college professors? It's much cheaper than if I do extension classes at a University of California campus. Thoughts?

I earned my BS in biology from years 2004-2007. I am applying this cycle and did not have to retake any prerequisites. I doubt you would need to. Just prepare for the MCAT. Sounds like you want to do it, so do it. Work will always be there if you change your mind.

 

[Skiiiiiing]

That's interesting, because I'm an M1 at a top 40. Should I tell them they've made a horrible mistake?

Look at MSAR, most in top 50 don't take CC

 

[DocJanItor]

Look at MSAR, most in top 50 don't take CC

He's not using those credits as prereq fillers. He's already got that. So taking them isn't going to hurt him, it just works at the cheapest refresher.

 

[Laterthansooner]

@frood ... I am older than you by a couple years and applying to med school this cycle. There aren't heaps of us, but we exist. Some thoughts:

You will need new prereqs. Technically, your grades should be no more than 5 years old. Some schools take old scores but most want to see that you can manage a hefty courseload against today's students. Things have changed a lot and your competitors will be very bright. Also, any post-bacc program will tell you that while a couple of CC classes are okay, med schools really want to see current class work from a four-year university.

If you don't have to work, don't. Focus on school. Get it done. Give yourself every chance to succeed with the best possible opportunities. Use any extra time to get research experience, clinical hours and to volunteer/engage in your community. You have a unique situation but you still have to have the extra curriculars and academic numbers that the applicants half your age do.

Some schools are non-trad- and age-friendly. Find them. Find them early and see what they require. Start a dialogue with them, go visit, share your story. Establish relationships in the places you want to go most. Some schools are not age-friendly AT ALL. Find them and cross them off your list. Do not waste your time. You don't have time to waste.

There will be plenty of people who think you are crazy but if this is what you want, shut down the noise and disregard the riff raff. Take only what serves you. The only one you need to please is you.

Find @Goro. Read his words.

Regarding expense, do your research. Wrap your head around the $300-400,000 you will owe as your begin your career. The amount of debt accrued in med school is staggering (even without a post-bacc). Even the cheaper schools aren't cheap. The debt is real. You'll be paying off loans until you reach social security, so if you really want med school then make sure you are okay with the cost.

Hope this helps.

 

[DBC03]

This is a scary process for those of us who have careers, so you'll definitely need to know this is for you when you start. But there's no reason you can't dip your toes in the water and take a few classes and shadow some physicians.

I know of two schools specifically that request more current pre-reqs: UNC (30 hours within past 5 years) and Cornell (most sciences within 10 years - add two semesters of writing requirement for those). I highly recommend taking classes again to show that you can do th work, but both UNC and Cornell (as well as just about every other school) will gladly accept upper level classes in lieu of the general/introductory classes. I took Cell Bio and Genetics for bio, Orgo 1 & 2, Advanced Biochem 1 & 2, and now taking PChem (you don't have to take PChem - one school recommends it). And I'm in a class that's the application of physics to biology and medicine (my physics credits are from 2000). I also tacked a few other classes in as my GPA is a full 0.5 points below yours and could use some help. If you're looking to apply to just about every med school in the US, I recommend taking two upper level bio classes, two upper level physics classes (good luck finding these - most are just for physics majors), and whatever chemistry prereqs you haven't taken as well as additional classes to fulfill the requirements at schools (at least two to four semesters if you already fulfilled the prereqs). Unless you really love writing, you might want to just skip applying to Cornell. I wrote a thesis over 200 pages and they won't accept that because it's too old.

I should add that UNC requires those classes BEFORE application and Cornell requires theirs by Jan 30 of the year you are applying. Most other schools will accept courses taken through June of the year you matriculate. So if you take enough to do well on the MCAT, you could theoretically apply while taking other classes. However - you want to show schools that you still have that ability to succeed in course work. So you might be better off planning to do your classes before applying.

I'm in the middle of the application process, so feel free to send me a PM if you have specific questions. It's a learning curve. I'd say take your time with taking classes and continue to work. Definitely take your upper level courses before you take the MCAT.

 

[Darth Doc]

I've lurked here for a month or two now, but just opened an account. I hope it's okay if I ask a question that seems to get asked a lot. My question is whether you'd go back to med school if you were me?

I did. I had a good job in the medical field but was bored. My school choices were limited because my prerequisites were over 15 years old. The school in my home state only takes prereqs up to 10 years old. I should have retaken biochemistry. It had really changed and that course was a struggle in medical school.

Only you can decide if medical school is right for you. I'm glad I did it, although some days I wonder why I thought this would be a good idea. (I'm in my 4th year of medical school now.)

 

[frood]

Thanks again everyone! I really, really appreciate the information and help!

It seems some med schools require recent prereqs, while others don't. Maybe I just have to check with each med school to see because it seems to be variable. If I have to retake prereqs, I will probably try to work part-time while taking my prereqs, even though it might take me 3 years (or more) instead of 2 years to complete. I was hoping to save money by taking prereqs at a community college, but maybe I will have to opt for university classes. If I do university classes, do you guys think it would be better to apply to a post-baccalureate program instead?

This is maybe weird but can I take the MCAT now and see how I do? If I do badly, can I retake it after retaking my prereqs?

I don't need to end up at any of the top med schools, and I doubt I would be able to get into any of them anyway given my older age and my lack of accomplishments since undergrad. I'm definitely not hoping for Stanford, UCSF, or UCLA. I'd be fine with moving out of California. Actually, I assume I will most likely have to move because my understanding is med schools in California are very competitive. I make a decent salary now but life is very expensive here. I could probably take a 25% pay cut in a new job and still come out ahead if we lived in the Midwest where my wife has some family or Texas where one of my family members and a couple of friends just moved. We've been thinking of moving out of state for a while. I'd be down with going to any med school, and I'm even open to DO schools. I have even thought about Caribbean med schools because I have heard of people who have made it and my understanding is internal medicine is obtainable for Caribbean med school graduates. Seriously, I'm not picky at all. I used to be into reputation when I was younger, but at this point in my life it's honestly not a big deal to me as long as I can get to where I want to go. My dream is to become an oncologist if I can make it there someday. I don't know if this changes anything, but that's what I'm thinking now. If I'm down with going to any med school, do you think doing prereqs at a community college would still be a problem? My main goal is to limit costs.

I am worried about potential debt, but I hope I can offset that by living in a cheaper area for med school, residency, and fellowship. My wife should be able to work during that entire time, too. I assume we will still have to take out a lot of loans, but I hope we can minimize loans by living cheaply and my wife working. We're not actively planning on having kids. I don't want to get into too many details, and we aren't against having kids at all, but we have tried, but unfortunately it hasn't worked out. Maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised with a child someday, but it might also be too late for us. If somehow we do end up having a kid, then we'll find a way to make it work and adjust. I hope all this is realistic? Am I missing anything?

 

[DocJanItor]

Ok, repeat after me: CARIBBEAN MED SCHOOL IS NOT AN OPTION. First off, your grades are far too good to ever consider going there even if it was a viable pathway. Second, it is not a viable pathway. Even if you get fantastic scores, your chances of getting a good residency are very low. Please do some research on SDN about how bad Caribbean med schools are. DO NOT GO.

You're starting off with great stats so you don't need to compromise based on that. I researched MSAR and of the top 10 med schools, Harvard, Stanford, UCSF, and several others specifically accept CC courses. Of the others I looked at, most of them said they accept CC credits on a case-by-case basis (or failed to say at all). None that I looked at outright said they do not accept them as they often say with online courses/AP courses. The only reason you may need to cast a wide net is your age; some med schools may be reticent to accept you, but there are people who do it at your age and older every year. You should buy access to the MSAR on AAMC's website. I think it's about $25 for a year.

Third, DO NOT take the MCAT just to see how you do. Multiple attempts, particularly with a bad score, are viewed negatively. You don't want to take the MCAT until you've had your prereqs, studied for the test, and take a few full-length practice tests in order to get a feel for your readiness to take an 8 hour, high intensity test.

Fourth, you'll need to shadow some doctors. I'd advise shadowing the doctors you know and trying to rotate around through a few different specialities. You'll need 40-80 hours in order to have sufficient exposure. You'll also need to get some solid clinical volunteering experiences. Since you're just starting your path it's not unreasonable to get 150-200 hours a year. Whatever volunteering you do, make sure it's with the underserved.

Good luck, and feel free to reach out to me.

 

[TrinitySOM]

Thanks again everyone! I really, really appreciate the information and help!

It seems some med schools require recent prereqs, while others don't. Maybe I just have to check with each med school to see because it seems to be variable. If I have to retake prereqs, I will probably try to work part-time while taking my prereqs, even though it might take me 3 years (or more) instead of 2 years to complete. I was hoping to save money by taking prereqs at a community college, but maybe I will have to opt for university classes. If I do university classes, do you guys think it would be better to apply to a post-baccalureate program instead?

This is maybe weird but can I take the MCAT now and see how I do? If I do badly, can I retake it after retaking my prereqs?

I don't need to end up at any of the top med schools, and I doubt I would be able to get into any of them anyway given my older age and my lack of accomplishments since undergrad. I'm definitely not hoping for Stanford, UCSF, or UCLA. I'd be fine with moving out of California. Actually, I assume I will most likely have to move because my understanding is med schools in California are very competitive. I make a decent salary now but life is very expensive here. I could probably take a 25% pay cut in a new job and still come out ahead if we lived in the Midwest where my wife has some family or Texas where one of my family members and a couple of friends just moved. We've been thinking of moving out of state for a while. I'd be down with going to any med school, and I'm even open to DO schools. I have even thought about Caribbean med schools because I have heard of people who have made it and my understanding is internal medicine is obtainable for Caribbean med school graduates. Seriously, I'm not picky at all. I used to be into reputation when I was younger, but at this point in my life it's honestly not a big deal to me as long as I can get to where I want to go. My dream is to become an oncologist if I can make it there someday. I don't know if this changes anything, but that's what I'm thinking now. If I'm down with going to any med school, do you think doing prereqs at a community college would still be a problem? My main goal is to limit costs.

If you are interested in the advice of someone in MD admissions, you should be planning to re-take the admission pre-requisites. The grades you earned so many years ago are no longer representative of your knowledge of the subjects. Post bac programs are a focused way to go about updating your pre-med knowledge and more often than not you're with students on a similar path towards medical school. However, if balancing school and work/life is important as is maintaining an income, re-taking the needed courses at a community college while working is also a path that you shouldn't rule out.
I would also advise against taking the MCAT for a baseline, without current course work and some months of studying, it would be a waste of time and money.
One of my favorite non-traditional success stories is of a woman who had been a pharmacist for 20 years before deciding that she wanted to be the one writing the scripts versus filling them. She was over fifty when she started the program and went on to secure a pediatric residency at a top Children's hospital in Cleveland, OH and is now doing a fellowship at the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta. There are many paths one can take to practice medicine, getting started is the big hurdle.

 

[valid username]

Since someone already mentioned it: Caribbean schools may recruit you. I had a 4.0 but the American application process was so intimidating. I was scared to try it given my age. I was given a hefty scholarship by one of the Big 3 schools. Now I'm in fourth year realizing I probably can't match. It is beyond depressing. If I could have matched, it would have been good. Instead, I can't even get an interview. Almost two weeks into the process and not a single invite. If you can go American, do it. It really wears on you to constantly be reminded you are a low-quality person who will end up with a useless MD title.

 

[aformerstudent]

Since someone already mentioned it: Caribbean schools may recruit you. I had a 4.0 but the American application process was so intimidating. I was scared to try it given my age. I was given a hefty scholarship by one of the Big 3 schools. Now I'm in fourth year realizing I probably can't match. It is beyond depressing. If I could have matched, it would have been good. Instead, I can't even get an interview. Almost two weeks into the process and not a single invite. If you can go American, do it. It really wears on you to constantly be reminded you are a low-quality person who will end up with a useless MD title.

Your honesty is appreciated. But don't lose hope. Good things happen to good people.

 

[valid username]

Thanks aformerstudent. You are very kind.

 

[aformerstudent]

Thanks aformerstudent. You are very kind.

Thanks. Good luck and don't give up.

 

[valid username]

Frood, I wanted to address some of the other questions you had:

1. Finances. Granted, a lot depends on your standards, but IMO, if you end up having to take loans you will certainly have enough to live decently. Even more so if your wife is working. I support my family on loans. We have very little left over but I still have managed to pay for all the exams, fees, etc.

2. If someday you are pleasantly surprised by a wee one's arrival, you can still manage medical school. I had a baby in late in m1 (was 41). Rote memorization is more difficult in your 40s. It requires short but frequent exposure with lots of repetition. This is compatible with interrupted study. Again, IMO, it is far easier to identify the information that is important in your 40s. Once you survive the first 2 years, your life experience starts to work for your patients.

 

[68PGunner]

I've lurked here for a month or two now, but just opened an account. I hope it's okay if I ask a question that seems to get asked a lot. My question is whether you'd go back to med school if you were me?

I'm 41, graduated from UC Berkeley, molecular and cell biology major, did all my pre-med prerequisites back then, 3.9 GPA (both science and overall GPA). I did some research in oncology as an undergrad and even had a small publication. When I graduated, start-ups and the internet in general were taking off, so I ended up working for a well-known Silicon Valley company. I'm still working in the tech/computer industry. I make okay but not great money, no debt, I'm married, my wife is a nurse, no kids, and we don't own a house but just rent. However, I'm somewhat stuck in this career now. It's a good gig, I get along with everyone, but I just don't see myself advancing much further where I am. Not unless I want to go into more of a managerial role, but I'm really not interested in that at all. I'm in good health, I run 2-3x per week, and I hit the gym to lift weights 2-3x per week.

I'm considering going to med school since that's what I originally wanted to do in college. But I know it's been too long so I'd probably have to redo all my pre-med prerequisites. It should be possible for me to work part-time from home so I can focus on finishing my prerequisites while maintaining enough of an income to survive. Or my wife could support us, and she's fine with that, though we might have to downsize our life. If I go full-time or do a post-bacc course, then from what I understand it's about a 2 year commitment, give or take. But if I'm working part-time, it might take me an extra year. Call it 3 years from now. If I get accepted to med school, I'll be around 44 years old.

I'm somewhat familiar with the medical world in general from my wife but also from a couple of relatives who are physicians including a close cousin. My cousin is a hematologist and oncologist now. That's what I'd like to become as well since I've always dreamed of becoming an oncologist since I was a kid. My cousin tells me it's a tough grind to make it through med school, residency, and fellowship. I've heard lots of horror stories from my cousin and others including working ridiculous 80+ hours per week at times, often having to go into the hospital in the middle of the night, dealing with the psychological and emotional strain if not outright abuse that happens from patients, attending physicians, and other staff, and much more. I assume all this is just the tip of the iceberg too and that things are probably even worse when you have to experience them yourself. And my wife is very supportive, but I realize that's easy to say now, and probably much harder when we're living through everything.

Nevertheless, I've still dreamed of becoming an oncologist. However, I'd be around 44 when starting med school, 48 when starting my residency in internal medicine I believe, then 51 when starting my oncology fellowship, then 54 when starting as a new attending oncologist. If I don't make it to oncology, if residency becomes too exhausting for me, then I would be happy working in internal medicine starting at age 51 because my cousin tells me I can still help treat cancer in internal medicine. I'd love to never retire.

All this would presumably put us into considerable debt though. But I'd try to aim for the cheapest med school I can get into.

I'd love to hear your thoughts? Thank you!

I'm going to be honest here but if I'm in your shoes I would not go to med school at your age assuming that I feel that I can still work at the current tech job for the next 15 years. The return for the opportunity lost in term of income is too great for your case. This is coming from someone who started med school at age 31 w/ literally a full ride. It's your life and it's your call though.

In term of stats, the sky is the limit for you if you score 510+ on your MCAT. It shouldn't be a hard thing to do considering your intelligence. However, medical school emphasizes a diff kind of intelligence that might be incompatible with your current intelligence. Schooling isn't really hard if you are good at memorizing stuff. It took me about 12-14 months of pure pounding facts into my brain before my brain adapts to the new demands. It should be harder to reshape your brain the older you are in term of age. If you have the will and determination to be on this path, then go for it. However, you will make a lot of sacrifices.

 

[Ad2b]

This is maybe weird but can I take the MCAT now and see how I do?

Without prepping for it? No.

Preparing for it with all the AAMC materials and following some sort of schedule (posted all over on this forum)? Yes.

However, the MCAT is more than just knowledge of PV=nRT, that's simple. So is W=Fdcos(theta) but that's not what you get tested on, though you need to know that stuff inside and out.

The MCAT is more like:

Long piece of research based on circulatory system including snippets of translocated exons with mutations of the AA's at certain loci perpetuating in lab graphs and tables that ask you:

What is the most unlikely but not necessarily required directional velocity of a hematocyte following a path from SV to AV eventually reaching the capillary beds in the feet?

Of course, the answers are 2 really wrong ones, 1 that sort of sounds right and 1 that is absolutely correct.

Preparing for the MCAT is really content + learning how the AAMC wants one to respond.