Should there be a Limit on # of residency programs you can apply to?

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I don't know why people keep saying this. The "have nots" are the ones that would stand to lose from a application cap, as they are the ones who typically feel the need to apply to a substantially greater than average number of places.

The "have nots" might lose in this regard, depending on the size of the cap, but they would also gain something. Namely, it would be more difficult for their applications to be drowned out by others who are simply adding safety programs out of paranoia.

I have had to talk pretty average applicants, applying to pretty average fields, off the proverbial ledge of applying to >70 programs. The aren't doing it in the name of choice and liberty, the are doing it out of fear. I have also had people cancel >40 interview offers, and sheepishly admit that they should have listened to what multiple advisors were telling them before they blew 1K in ERAS.
 
The "have nots" might lose in this regard, depending on the size of the cap, but they would also gain something. Namely, it would be more difficult for their applications to be drowned out by others who are simply adding safety programs out of paranoia

Boom

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The "have nots" might lose in this regard, depending on the size of the cap, but they would also gain something. Namely, it would be more difficult for their applications to be drowned out by others who are simply adding safety programs out of paranoia.

I have had to talk pretty average applicants, applying to pretty average fields, off the proverbial ledge of applying to >70 programs. The aren't doing it in the name of choice and liberty, the are doing it out of fear. I have also had people cancel >40 interview offers, and sheepishly admit that they should have listened to what multiple advisors were telling them before they blew 1K in ERAS.
True, but I also believe the "haves" (I'm seriously starting to hate this terminology we decided on...) are often thrown out of many schools because they are seen as only applying to a place as a backup.

In the end, it won't matter. Those with great apps can get 30 interviews, but they still only match one place. Less interviews does not = less likely to match if it is widespread across the board.
 
Everyone has their own risk tolerance. When people have 100,200,300k riding on you getting a job, I'm making my risk of not matching as small as possible. That means maximizing my chances relative to the pool. If you want to roll the dice, that's your choice too.

As for your second point, I've been through a non match for fellowship. I far preferred the match. You are overestimating the "elaborate" system of the match. From the NRMP standpoint, they are just running an algorithm of lists. It tries to remove the human tampering that occurs in non match systems.
This is basic game theory. Each person tries to maximize their own success by applying to/interviewing at/ranking as many programs as possible. In the end though, the outcomes is ultimately the same as everyone is following the same strategy. Putting a hard cap on the number of applications nets you the same results with fewer dollars spent.

Derm candidates nowadays apply to all the derm programs in the country! Does that somehow increase each of their chances of matching? The only people who may even marginally benefit from the existing system are the marginal candidates applying to uncompetitive specialties who compensate by applying to many more programs than everyone else. The average candidate does not benefit. The top candidates do not benefit.
 
I don't think the situation is nearly as troubled as you think it is but maybe that is because things are different across fields, program sizes, program tiers.

Just dropped in Academic Medicine - The Residency Application Process: Pursuing Improved Outcomes Through Better Understanding of the Issues - by PJ Katsufrakis, TA Uhler, LD Jones.

Excerpt (emphasis added):

In addition, it is equally difficult for RSCs [resident selection committees] to discern which applicants are most interested in their programs. Applicants submit a general application designed to appeal to a broad range of programs. The number of applications per applicant has increased dramatically in recent years and continues to rise. RSCs are more overwhelmed than ever by the volume of applications and supplemental materials received. They search for ways to compare candidates effectively and efficiently to determine which applications to interview. Late interview cancellations and use of interview opportunities for "practice" by uninterested applicants hurt both the program and the interested applicants who would have been eager to interview but did not receive an invitation.

In typical AcMed fashion the "potential solutions" offered by the authors is mostly a laundry list of things they do not see working, such as an application cap. And, of course, there is this little gem of a sentence: Holistic analysis of of the residency application process through the lens of game theory may be worthwhile.

[Rips face off]
 
This is basic game theory. Each person tries to maximize their own success by applying to/interviewing at/ranking as many programs as possible. In the end though, the outcomes is ultimately the same as everyone is following the same strategy. Putting a hard cap on the number of applications nets you the same results with fewer dollars spent.

Derm candidates nowadays apply to all the derm programs in the country! Does that somehow increase each of their chances of matching? The only people who may even marginally benefit from the existing system are the marginal candidates applying to uncompetitive specialties who compensate by applying to many more programs than everyone else. The average candidate does not benefit. The top candidates do not benefit.

I'm going to say that I applied to a competitive specialty and applied across the entire country, because as someone stated previously, it was the FIELD and not the LOCATION that was most important to me. If I had a hard cap of say 30 programs before the interview, I wouldn't even have applied to where I ended up matching. Then I would've been SOL in getting a residency program because I'm sure somebody WOULD have ranked that program in their pre-interview top 30. If I had to make a top 30 list of places to apply, I probably would've gotten 1/2 to 3/4 of the interviews I did, and likely wouldn't have matched in the field I wanted.

Yes, ERAS sucks and is expensive and I think if you are doing a non-competitive specialty without a strict location requirement and have average to above average stats (for that specialty) you shouldn't go overboard. But 4th year and the match process, IMO, is not the place to 'limit' apps or give a medical student ANY regrets as to the choices they made in terms of WHERE to apply for residency.
 
If I had a hard cap of say 30 programs before the interview, I wouldn't even have applied to where I ended up matching. Then I would've been SOL in getting a residency program because I'm sure somebody WOULD have ranked that program in their pre-interview top 30.

Not necessarily seeing how this is a disadvantage? The program was likely able to fill up its slots just fine without you. Except now it probably had to sift through and set up interviews for an excessive number of candidates for the same outcome from their perspective.

It would be great if students were able to be more prudent and select programs based on their needs and personal goals after taking the time to research them instead of just blindly shot-gunning every single program they can under the sun in paranoia and making up the reason for being in love with whatever program prior to interview day.
 
Not necessarily seeing how this is a disadvantage? The program was likely able to fill up its slots just fine without you. Except now it probably had to sift through and set up interviews for an excessive number of candidates for the same outcome from their perspective.

It would be great if students were able to be more prudent and select programs based on their needs and personal goals after taking the time to research them instead of just blindly shot-gunning every single program they can under the sun in paranoia and making up the reason for being in love with whatever program prior to interview day.

It would've been a pretty severe disadvantage to me. It's not like programs are going unfilled routinely. I'm arguing from the applicants side why this should be allowed to be a thing. I already think it's kind of nuts for the ENT residencies to require a secondary essay for their apps but they can do what they like to make this process as painful as they want for future residency applications.
 
It would've been a pretty severe disadvantage to me.
And thus the risk that you, I and the rest of us take when going into these fields where there's more competition than available spots. Someone has to be the loser.

But from the program's side, it's not a disadvantage at all.
 
its interesting to hear so many people critical of the match system. haven't really seen that before on this site. seemed like almost everyone thought it was a good alternative to rolling job offers.

I agree that the reason people apply to so many places is that they don't know how competitive they are, and how competitive certain programs are.
 
If I had to make a top 30 list of places to apply, I probably would've gotten 1/2 to 3/4 of the interviews I did, and likely wouldn't have matched in the field I wanted.

Unlikely, as every other applicant would have the same limitation of choosing 30 programs. The average yield per application, in terms of receiving an interview offer and being ranked by the program, would increase commensurately. That said, it is difficult to predict how a cap would distort a dynamic market like the match.

I already think it's kind of nuts for the ENT residencies to require a secondary essay for their apps but they can do what they like to make this process as painful as they want for future residency applications.

Residency programs have resorted to this sort of thing because of the sheer volume of applications they receive.
 
its interesting to hear so many people critical of the match system. haven't really seen that before on this site. seemed like almost everyone thought it was a good alternative to rolling job offers.

I agree that the reason people apply to so many places is that they don't know how competitive they are, and how competitive certain programs are.
Most people here fail to understand why the match exists- prior to the Match, residents were abused pretty heavily. They would get hardball, 24 hour take-it-or-leave-it offers from low ranked programs early on, leaving them with the "do I turn this program down and risk losing a spot in my specialty just for the chance of being at a better program?" The match algorithmically ensures both programs and candidates get their optional choice, rather than the mind games free-for-all that existed before and left both candidates and programs unhappy.
 
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There already is- the number you can afford.

ERAS has made the point that the current fee structure provides a disincentive to applying to tons of programs. How much of a disincentive?

1-10 $99
11-20 $12 each
21-30 $16 each
31+ $26 each

Applying to 30 programs therefore costs a mere $379. After borrowing hundreds of thousands to attend medical school in the first place, an extra $26 per program beyond 30 is a drop in the bucket, especially considering the perception that everything is on the line.
 
And none of that would change with a quota on programs that an applicant applies to?

Applicants would not be able to be hardballed, because they still will have to make rank lists and wait until Match Day to get their results.

The Match and ERAS is a good system to centralize applications and optimize matches. This does nothing to sidestep that. Except for the paranoid people who think "well what if program XYZ out there was really the one for me but if I can't apply to 70+ programs I'll never know!" It takes away the responsibility from the applicant to do the work and research on programs and in turn puts the load on the programs to filter and interview many more applicants than they will likely expect to rank them.
 
As someone starting med school next year, can someone explain to me:

1) How do you have time to interview at 20+ places during 4th year? Most of my undergrad friends had a hard time keeping up with school work during their senior year when they had ~4 interviews the entire semester.

2) Is this mainly an issue for competitive fields or does it affect everyone? I'm interested in FM and EM...do these fields require so many applications?
 
There already is- the number you can afford. The system works well as designed.

Except the system doesn't work well at all. It is insanely inefficient and expensive, for both applicants and programs. And as previously stated, the amount of extra-curricular communication going on to get programs to offer you an interview is only going to create more work and inefficiency. Something probably will need to change, because the current system is just simply bad.
 
As someone starting med school next year, can someone explain to me:

1) How do you have time to interview at 20+ places during 4th year?
You take time-off or skip rotation days, which is allowed at some places, frowned upon at others, and outright disallowed/you will get a failure for the rotation if you do. Interviewing at 20 places is a very expensive and stupid thing to do in most cases.

2) Is this mainly an issue for competitive fields or does it affect everyone? I'm interested in FM and EM...do these fields require so many applications?
It's an issue for everyone, as even in those uncompetitive fields, people are over-applying by a lot.
 
As someone starting med school next year, can someone explain to me:

1) How do you have time to interview at 20+ places during 4th year? Most of my undergrad friends had a hard time keeping up with school work during their senior year when they had ~4 interviews the entire semester.

2) Is this mainly an issue for competitive fields or does it affect everyone? I'm interested in FM and EM...do these fields require so many applications?

From what I've heard, most schools allow you to bank significant time off for 4th year. Most students at my school use their MS1/MS2 summer for elective stuff that translates directly into 1 for 1 time off banked. Therefore most seniors can take a minimum of 1-2 months off for pure interviews, in addition to other built up time off.
 
As someone starting med school next year, can someone explain to me:

1) How do you have time to interview at 20+ places during 4th year? Most of my undergrad friends had a hard time keeping up with school work during their senior year when they had ~4 interviews the entire semester.

2) Is this mainly an issue for competitive fields or does it affect everyone? I'm interested in FM and EM...do these fields require so many applications?

My school we get 2 vacation months and there are multiple online elective options. Also, on non-clerkship, non-AI months we can miss 4 days for interview/conference
 
You take time-off or skip rotation days, which is allowed at some places, frowned upon at others, and outright disallowed/you will get a failure for the rotation if you do. Interviewing at 20 places is a very expensive and stupid thing to do in most cases.


It's an issue for everyone, as even in those uncompetitive fields, people are over-applying by a lot.

Lol no its not. What do you think people applying to competitive advanced programs do? More than 20.
 
What garbage, we have no online electives :/ can U pm me ur school name so I can try to do an away online elective. Lmao.

You joke but someone tried to do a radiology away with us a couple years ago and apparently took our online joke of a rads course instead of the real one for people actually interested in learning radiology. They got housing in the city for the month and flew here and everything
 
Most people here fail to understand why the match exists- prior to the Match, residents were abused pretty heavily. They would get hardball, 24 hour take-it-or-leave-it offers from low ranked programs early on, leaving them with the "do I turn this program down and risk losing a spot in my specialty just for the chance of being a better program?" The match algorithmically ensures both programs and candidates get their optional choice, rather than the mind games free-for-all that existed before and left both candidates and programs unhappy.
I don't see many people here arguing against the match. However, the match was not intended to be a system where everyone applies to every program. It was put into place at a time when people applied to a realistic amount of places. Arguing for a cap on the number of programs applied to is not the same as arguing against the match.
 
It would've been a pretty severe disadvantage to me. It's not like programs are going unfilled routinely. I'm arguing from the applicants side why this should be allowed to be a thing. I already think it's kind of nuts for the ENT residencies to require a secondary essay for their apps but they can do what they like to make this process as painful as they want for future residency applications.
I think you should read the articles posted. People apply to more specialties, but people don't match more often. We've created it so that the only advantage you have is to apply to more than everyone else....but then everyone else also wants to apply to more programs than everyone else.
 
The Medical School Perspective

Having been chosen from thousands of applicants, each student represents a significant investment from the medical school’s perspective. Student affairs and curricular affairs staff know much more about students than their performance statistics may convey. School leadership is cognizant of stewardship in several areas, attending to multiple constituents’ concerns: current students’ success in the Match; the faculty’s and school’s reputation; admissions officers’ and future students’ opinions; and the public’s expectation of a highly competent physician workforce.

There are multiple new concerns in our current environment. Medical school applicants now routinely ask schools about both USMLE scores and match rates. All constituents are concerned with the increasing number of U.S. senior applicants to residency programs, increasing numbers of osteopathic and international applicants, and limited residency positions.
But which is a higher stewardship obligation for school officials: medical student advocate or objective reporter? There is often not consensus within an institution. Schools have access to information that may (unfairly) disadvantage an applicant, even if sound resolution has occurred. Some schools’ perception is that, at least initially, residency programs are looking for reasons to weed applicants out. Schools are concerned that the current application process does not provide adequate information about important qualities for a successful resident.

Striving for the best possible match for students is complex in the face of multiple considerations:
  • Residency programs must review a large number of applications using limited resources, and determining best fit is difficult.
  • Medical schools are expected to advocate for students to match with their desired program.
  • The significance of past academic and professional concerns as predictors of future performance is unclear.
Further, there are multiple tensions at the school and administrator levels:
  • The administrator’s “job” is to obtain the best match for an entire class, since the administrator’s performance evaluation may incorporate this outcome.
  • Medical schools are expected to be stewards of public well-being and professional standards.
  • There is a belief that all accepted students must finish medical school and match into residency programs.
  • Students may have unrealistic expectations, at times fostered by faculty.
  • Presenting comprehensive information about a student is challenging in light of the time crunch imposed by residency program requirements.
  • Administrators may have incomplete or unreliable information about residency programs.
  • Medical schools often have incomplete data about graduates’ subsequent performance (i.e., absence of a local “charting the outcomes” equivalent).
  • Administrators and faculty have relationships and connections with students going back four years or more.
The goal, from a school, administrator, and student perspective, is a 100% match. Given the reality of the Match, particularly in highly competitive specialties, and sometimes unrealistic student expectations, this may remain an aspirational goal. Unless medical students’ specialty aspirations perfectly match the number and distribution of postgraduate training positions, disappointment is inevitable; however, this is not the consequence of residencies’ use of USMLE Step 1 scores or any other data in their decisions.

The Residency Program Perspective

Resident selection committees (RSCs) seek to identify and select applicants who are a “good fit” for their programs. They seek candidates who will benefit from, contribute to, and thrive in their training environments. RSC goals are to match individuals who will perform well during training and to equip them to succeed in their ultimate career paths.

Determining best fit and predicting resident performance are challenging. Multiple studies have attempted to determine which attributes predict success during residency, including the optimal method of selecting residents who possess these attributes. Factors that consistently rank as important in candidate selection include:
  • Performance during medical school.
  • USMLE Step 1 score.
  • Alpha Omega Alpha Honor Medical Society and Gold Humanism Honor Society membership
  • Medical school class rank
  • Interview performance
  • Letters of recommendation
  • Extracurricular activities and leadership roles
  • Personal statements
No consensus exists regarding the best predictors of resident success. RSCs necessarily rely on surrogate markers and a combination of objective and subjective data as listed above. Unfortunately, reliable objective data are extremely limited.

Use of USMLE Step 1 scores is common because the USMLE constitutes a national, standardized, objective measure. Frequently, students who have received highest honors have solid USMLE scores; however, unlike the USMLE, these other markers are not standardized across schools. While not designed to predict future residency or practice performance, in the absence of other standardized, objective data, USMLE scores have been used by programs as one surrogate marker of future performance. They have been correlated with medical school performance, In-Training Examination scores, and board certification pass rates. The last is important for the program as well as the future practitioner. Board pass rates are used to evaluate program effectiveness, and they affect accreditation and reputation.

Use of USMLE Step 1 scores or any single screening criterion for residency applicants may have unanticipated and undesirable effects. Standardized test scores often show significant variability across racial and ethnic groups. These differences may have the untoward effect of screening out underrepresented minority applicants to residency programs, despite the fact that differences in USMLE Step 1 scores do not predict performance on clinical task performance. This may impact an institution’s ability to fulfill its mission.

The MSPE is a critical component of residency applications, yet data contained within MSPEs can be incomplete and variable. Some medical schools do not follow AAMC guidelines for MSPEs. Also, because of the multiple and conflicting factors cited previously, often MSPEs are effectively another recommendation letter instead of an objective performance evaluation. Moving the MSPE release from November to October increased the likelihood that RSCs would include this letter in their initial reviews of applications. Early Match programs often still begin offering interviews before they receive applicants’ MSPEs. However, they can use the MSPE later when comparing applicants invited to interview and during subsequent ranking decisions.

The greatest value of the MSPE for the RSC is in its comparison of a student relative to his or her classmates at the same institution. However, across schools there are differences in grading scales and the percentage of students awarded the highest grades. Some schools have a pass/fail system. Not all schools rank their students. Understandably, it remains difficult to compare students from different schools using the MSPE.

In addition, it is equally difficult for RSCs to discern which applicants are most interested in their programs. Applicants submit a general application designed to appeal to a broad range of programs. The number of applications per applicant has increased dramatically in recent years and continues to rise. RSCs are more overwhelmed than ever by the volume of applications and supplemental materials received. They search for ways to compare candidates effectively and efficiently to determine which applicants to interview. Late interview cancellations and use of interview opportunities for “practice” by uninterested applicants hurt both the program and interested applicants who would have been eager to interview but did not receive an invitation.

Katsufrakis PJ, Uhler TA, Jones LD. The residency application process: pursuing improved outcomes through better understanding of the issues. Academic Medicine. 2016;20(10).
 
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@Med Ed the article appears to contradict itself:

Use of USMLE Step 1 scores or any single screening criterion for residency applicants may have unanticipated and undesirable effects. Standardized test scores often show significant variability across racial and ethnic groups. These differences may have the untoward effect of screening out underrepresented minority applicants to residency programs, despite the fact that differences in USMLE Step 1 scores do not predict performance on clinical task performance. This may impact an institution’s ability to fulfill its mission.

later in the article:

Research shows that USMLE Step 1 and Step 2 Clinical Knowledge performance correlates with subsequent specialty board performance, medical board disciplinary actions, and patient mortality, and that USMLE Step 2 Clinical Skills performance correlates with program directors’ ratings.

Katsufrakis PJ, Uhler TA, Jones LD. The residency application process: pursuing improved outcomes through better understanding of the issues. Academic Medicine. 2016;20(10).
 
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We'll see what the ERAS/NRMP gang has to say in Seattle next month. I will report back.
I'll be curious to see what comes out of this if anything.

This is basic game theory. Each person tries to maximize their own success by applying to/interviewing at/ranking as many programs as possible. In the end though, the outcomes is ultimately the same as everyone is following the same strategy. Putting a hard cap on the number of applications nets you the same results with fewer dollars spent.

Derm candidates nowadays apply to all the derm programs in the country! Does that somehow increase each of their chances of matching? The only people who may even marginally benefit from the existing system are the marginal candidates applying to uncompetitive specialties who compensate by applying to many more programs than everyone else. The average candidate does not benefit. The top candidates do not benefit.
The issue is that everyone is not following the same strategy. All applicants are not applying to 70,80, 90, 100 programs due to academic interests or geographic restrictions so as of now there still does remain benefit to overapplying and overinterviewing.

Just dropped in Academic Medicine - The Residency Application Process: Pursuing Improved Outcomes Through Better Understanding of the Issues - by PJ Katsufrakis, TA Uhler, LD Jones.

Excerpt (emphasis added):

In addition, it is equally difficult for RSCs [resident selection committees] to discern which applicants are most interested in their programs. Applicants submit a general application designed to appeal to a broad range of programs. The number of applications per applicant has increased dramatically in recent years and continues to rise. RSCs are more overwhelmed than ever by the volume of applications and supplemental materials received. They search for ways to compare candidates effectively and efficiently to determine which applications to interview. Late interview cancellations and use of interview opportunities for "practice" by uninterested applicants hurt both the program and the interested applicants who would have been eager to interview but did not receive an invitation.

In typical AcMed fashion the "potential solutions" offered by the authors is mostly a laundry list of things they do not see working, such as an application cap. And, of course, there is this little gem of a sentence: Holistic analysis of of the residency application process through the lens of game theory may be worthwhile.

[Rips face off]
I must say I have never and will never read that journal. I'd burst an aneurysm.

And none of that would change with a quota on programs that an applicant applies to?

Applicants would not be able to be hardballed, because they still will have to make rank lists and wait until Match Day to get their results.

The Match and ERAS is a good system to centralize applications and optimize matches. This does nothing to sidestep that. Except for the paranoid people who think "well what if program XYZ out there was really the one for me but if I can't apply to 70+ programs I'll never know!" It takes away the responsibility from the applicant to do the work and research on programs and in turn puts the load on the programs to filter and interview many more applicants than they will likely expect to rank them.
The introduction of a hard cap will create a significant strategy component to applications and the match. Do you try to get the best programs in your field and apply to all the Top 30? Do you play it safe, underacheive and submit all 30 to bottom tier programs in an attempt to "shine" if you are a middle of the road applicant? Do you take a balanced approach?

The beauty of the way it is right now is that you can cast a wide net, reach for the stars and see who is interested. From there you can ultimately decide what programs interest you the most and prioritize your interviews accordingly.

As I've said before, an applicant can talk to mentors in the field and do extensive internet research on programs and still have no idea really about a program until you get there, get the detailed PD presentation, talk to residents that are actually working within the system. I had one big name place go from pre-application top 5 to very bottom of the list based upon my interview day. It's not applicants applying irresponsibly, there just isn't a way to know.
 
I'll be curious to see what comes out of this if anything.


The issue is that everyone is not following the same strategy. All applicants are not applying to 70,80, 90, 100 programs due to academic interests or geographic restrictions so as of now there still does remain benefit to overapplying and overinterviewing.


I must say I have never and will never read that journal. I'd burst an aneurysm.


The introduction of a hard cap will create a significant strategy component to applications and the match. Do you try to get the best programs in your field and apply to all the Top 30? Do you play it safe, underacheive and submit all 30 to bottom tier programs in an attempt to "shine" if you are a middle of the road applicant? Do you take a balanced approach?

The beauty of the way it is right now is that you can cast a wide net, reach for the stars and see who is interested. From there you can ultimately decide what programs interest you the most and prioritize your interviews accordingly.

As I've said before, an applicant can talk to mentors in the field and do extensive internet research on programs and still have no idea really about a program until you get there, get the detailed PD presentation, talk to residents that are actually working within the system. I had one big name place go from pre-application top 5 to very bottom of the list based upon my interview day. It's not applicants applying irresponsibly, there just isn't a way to know.

Agree with bolded - as of the current system there is no penalty (except monetary) for applying to your reach programs. I'm sure at least a few people match into their "reach" program every year, and if there was a hard-cap on applications, then people wouldn't be as likely to apply to their "reach" programs.

For someone applying to a competitive specialty, I would end up being focused on a bunch of low to mid-tier places that I thought I had a strong chance of being accepted. Despite the research people do, it's impossible to know whether you're competitive for a program, especially in a field where most residencies are small (1 to 3 spots/year). It's easy for all of you who applied to IM or some other specialty where there are double digit residents per year, but applying to something like Rad Onc with a cap of 30 programs means at most you're applying for 1 in about 50-70 spots depending on the programs you choose. Maybe RO is different because the general consensus for anyone who was not a rock-star and wanted to be in the field more than a specific location was apply to all programs (of which there's <100 in all).

I can see the argument being a little bit different in fields with more residencies and more residents per class. I think if program directors are really having that hard of a time and/or are getting inundated with e-mails of applicants trying to separate themselves from the pack, they should put a notice like "If you send an unsolicited e-mail, your application will immediately be looked down upon". Or perhaps the push will be similar to secondary applications like the ENT programs, but that'll curtail applications pretty significantly for anything non-competitive.
 
but applying to something like Rad Onc with a cap of 30 programs

Can we pause and remember that a specific cap number has not been proposed? Data presented last year showed the average allopathic senior applies to 36 programs, average osteopathic applicant goes >70, and the average international graduate applies to over 100 programs. The number 30 is just an arbitrary figure pulled out of the air.

As I alluded to much earlier in the thread, I don't think a cap would be put forth without publishing more hard data on residency programs.
 
@Med Ed the article appears to contradict itself:

Welcome to the facepalm. I occasionally feel bad for both the USMLE and MCAT people. They work very hard to develop objective, useful assessment tools, and then have to plead with medical schools and residency programs not to use them too well. Having seen this obstructive bolus evolve over several years now, here is that the authors are perhaps trying to say: Step scores have predictive value for certain things, but the resident with a 230 isn't necessarily going to be better than the one with a 210.
 
No cap. Free market. What's the reason to limit it? Make more people SOAP?

Just a medical student but wouldn't that give PDs less work to sort through all their applicants and more time to analyze/interview them?
Maybe the cut-offs implemented do that job? idk...seems like an ok idea to me.
 
Not sure why people care how many places anyone else is applying, interviewing, and ranking. It's a personal decision. Suicide match 1 program if you want. No skin off anyone else's back.

Why would students advocate for LESS choice and LESS opportunity?

Because med students as a majority don't like to mind their own goddamn business and are always crying about "Why him/her and not me?" and are always comparing themselves to one another... especially the ones at the bottom of their classes that are being lazy, always posting on facebook complaining about school when they should be studying and not wasting time.

Med students just suck. The chill ones that work hard and mind their own business are super hard to find.
 
You take time-off or skip rotation days, which is allowed at some places, frowned upon at others, and outright disallowed/you will get a failure for the rotation if you do. Interviewing at 20 places is a very expensive and stupid thing to do in most cases.


It's an issue for everyone, as even in those uncompetitive fields, people are over-applying by a lot.

Thanks. Also is applying to residency as time consuming as applying to med school? Do you guys have to send a primary, multiple secondaries, etc?
 
As a PD, I honestly don't think there is a workable solution to the problem.

I am not a fan of capping applications. That seems unfair, and would create a situation where students would need to decide which programs they are competitive for, and discourage applying to reach programs.

I do not think that publishing an MSAR for residency programs will change anything. Even if you know what the average USMLE score for a program is, and if your score is above that score, it won't limit people's applications. Applicants with Step 1's of 260+ are applying to 20+ programs in IM.

A "wave" application system (where you get 5 apps in the first round, and then more apps in later rounds) is equally problematic. Applicants will know that choosing those first 5 (or whatever number) apps will be critical, and that programs will consider apps in later rounds less seriously.

Perhaps an "Early Decision" system would work. Programs can only give 1/2 of their slots away to early decision candidates. Applicants can only apply to a single program Early Decision and it's binding. Still, this is going to make the process perhaps more stressful for those applicants that don't get into their early decision -- and again pressure applicants away from their reach programs.
 
Why is it exactly a concern to cater to people who go for "reach" schools? It's not exactly a bad thing for people to get into schools in which they appropriately evaluate themselves suited for?

If you desire to go to a top program, you will work hard to be as competitive as such so that such a program will not be a "reach."

The introduction of a hard cap will create a significant strategy component to applications and the match. Do you try to get the best programs in your field and apply to all the Top 30? Do you play it safe, underacheive and submit all 30 to bottom tier programs in an attempt to "shine" if you are a middle of the road applicant? Do you take a balanced approach?

You can do all or none. Everyone will have their own strategies, but in the end the total number of applications going out would be limited. The applicant will know their own strengths and weaknesses best, and should apply accordingly.

The beauty of the way it is right now is that you can cast a wide net, reach for the stars and see who is interested. From there you can ultimately decide what programs interest you the most and prioritize your interviews accordingly.

A beauty for the applicant, but there's still the real issues of programs being inundated by applications in terms of time and cost. And the real issue of someone who would truly want to go to a specific program being "washed out" simply because a bunch of stronger candidates applied to that program as a safety but end up going to their primary choice. A situation like that benefits no one.

As I've said before, an applicant can talk to mentors in the field and do extensive internet research on programs and still have no idea really about a program until you get there, get the detailed PD presentation, talk to residents that are actually working within the system. I had one big name place go from pre-application top 5 to very bottom of the list based upon my interview day. It's not applicants applying irresponsibly, there just isn't a way to know.

C'est la vie. One can never be able to perfectly plan out everything. The goal of residency is to find one that gives you a good enough fit and the appropriate training to excel in your field, not to find out that "one special residency for me."
 
As a PD, I honestly don't think there is a workable solution to the problem.

I am not a fan of capping applications. That seems unfair, and would create a situation where students would need to decide which programs they are competitive for, and discourage applying to reach programs.

I do not think that publishing an MSAR for residency programs will change anything. Even if you know what the average USMLE score for a program is, and if your score is above that score, it won't limit people's applications. Applicants with Step 1's of 260+ are applying to 20+ programs in IM.

A "wave" application system (where you get 5 apps in the first round, and then more apps in later rounds) is equally problematic. Applicants will know that choosing those first 5 (or whatever number) apps will be critical, and that programs will consider apps in later rounds less seriously.

Perhaps an "Early Decision" system would work. Programs can only give 1/2 of their slots away to early decision candidates. Applicants can only apply to a single program Early Decision and it's binding. Still, this is going to make the process perhaps more stressful for those applicants that don't get into their early decision -- and again pressure applicants away from their reach programs.

I think the problem with early decision is that applicants will still apply to reach programs preferentially. If you know you're allowed to apply to more programs when you don't get accepted for an early decision spot, why would anyone apply to a lower tier program? It would be in everyone's best interest to apply to a reach and hope for the best, then when the regular application period begins, the whole problem starts again as the same strategies get employed.

I think a wave application system would work best. Applicants could apply to say, 10 programs. If you are ranked at any of the first 10, you are withdrawn from the process, then the process starts again. This way, early on programs get access to students who have true interest or at the very least, students who realize their competitiveness and are listing a certain program in their initial 10 because they think they're a good fit for that program. I don't see any flaws with this process, the only one being, it will be time consuming and essentially would involve an interview season from right when September opens up, likely all the way until February for a majority of programs.
 
I think the problem with early decision is that applicants will still apply to reach programs preferentially. If you know you're allowed to apply to more programs when you don't get accepted for an early decision spot, why would anyone apply to a lower tier program? It would be in everyone's best interest to apply to a reach and hope for the best, then when the regular application period begins, the whole problem starts again as the same strategies get employed.

I think a wave application system would work best. Applicants could apply to say, 10 programs. If you are ranked at any of the first 10, you are withdrawn from the process, then the process starts again. This way, early on programs get access to students who have true interest or at the very least, students who realize their competitiveness and are listing a certain program in their initial 10 because they think they're a good fit for that program. I don't see any flaws with this process, the only one being, it will be time consuming and essentially would involve an interview season from right when September opens up, likely all the way until February for a majority of programs.
How would a wave system work? You apply to 10 programs, get some interviews, one of those 10 rank you = you are done with the entire process?
 
How would a wave system work? You apply to 10 programs, get some interviews, one of those 10 rank you = you are done with the entire process?

I may be utterly wrong on this, but I believe we are heading for a two wave process, where you can apply to a limited number of programs initially and then an unlimited number later on. IMHO 10 programs is too small a number, but ERAS and NRMP have piles of data they could use to define a better one. The number might even vary between specialties.

I can think of someone right now who applied to 50 programs and has received about 40 interviews, ultimately having to cancel over half of them. If this person had only applied to, say, 25 programs initially and gotten 20 interviews, he would not have proceeded any further.
 
I may be utterly wrong on this, but I believe we are heading for a two wave process, where you can apply to a limited number of programs initially and then an unlimited number later on. IMHO 10 programs is too small a number, but ERAS and NRMP have piles of data they could use to define a better one. The number might even vary between specialties.

I can think of someone right now who applied to 50 programs and has received about 40 interviews, ultimately having to cancel over half of them. If this person had only applied to, say, 25 programs initially and gotten 20 interviews, he would not have proceeded any further.

But what is the downside of securing 40 interviews and cancelling half of them? Besides the one-time monetary hit to the applicant? Extra work for the program director to go through the additional applications of applicants that are going to cancel their interview once they hit 15 programs? Once the list of interviewee candidates is made, as people cancel, it just moves down the list, I imagine.
 
But what is the downside of securing 40 interviews and cancelling half of them? Besides the one-time monetary hit to the applicant? Extra work for the program director to go through the additional applications of applicants that are going to cancel their interview once they hit 15 programs? Once the list of interviewee candidates is made, as people cancel, it just moves down the list, I imagine.

You have to understand that the current state of affairs, with your average US allopathic senior applying to ~36 programs, is new. If it weren't then we wouldn't be having this conversation. But the trajectory has become clear, and every year now the average increases, meaning more unnecessary expenditure on the part of the applicant (both for ERAS fees and excessive traveling to maximize interviews), and unnecessary time and administrative burden on residency programs, who have a hard time telling who is really interested. Most of the PD's I have talked with over the matter interview about 10 people per slot to ensure they fill with decent people. Hence the development of added measures like the SLOE letter for EM, and the never-ending discussion on changing the MSPE to make it more useful.

I know if you just look at the match process as a snapshot in time it seems to be working tolerably well, but the creep of an arms race mentality on the part of applicants has sent it edging toward a level of dysfunction that is unsustainable.
 
Jeeze, just like med school candidates. Fascinating thread!
The good news is that there are many excellent applicants. The bad news is that all applicants look alike on paper, and it is difficult to discern who is a good fit for your program.

Viewpoint From a Program Director
They Can’t All Walk on Water
Liana Puscas, MD, MHS


Just thinking so far out in left field that I'm heading into another zip code, how about a draft system like MLB or the NFL uses? Of course, this would require all of post-graduate education to be unified into a single "league". And then how does one determine who are the Chicago Cubs programs, vs the Minn. Twins? But I can imagine one hospital saying to another "I'll trade you two surgeons for a gastroenterologist, and a pediatrician to be named later".


How would a wave system work? You apply to 10 programs, get some interviews, one of those 10 rank you = you are done with the entire process?
 
You have to understand that the current state of affairs, with your average US allopathic senior applying to ~36 programs, is new. If it weren't then we wouldn't be having this conversation. But the trajectory has become clear, and every year now the average increases, meaning more unnecessary expenditure on the part of the applicant (both for ERAS fees and excessive traveling to maximize interviews), and unnecessary time and administrative burden on residency programs, who have a hard time telling who is really interested. Most of the PD's I have talked with over the matter interview about 10 people per slot to ensure they fill with decent people. Hence the development of added measures like the SLOE letter for EM, and the never-ending discussion on changing the MSPE to make it more useful.

I know if you just look at the match process as a snapshot in time it seems to be working tolerably well, but the creep of an arms race mentality on the part of applicants has sent it edging toward a level of dysfunction that is unsustainable.

I only applied to half that. You're welcome.
 
Jeeze, just like med school candidates. Fascinating thread!



Just thinking so far out in left field that I'm heading into another zip code, how about a draft system like MLB or the NFL uses? Of course, this would require all of post-graduate education to be unified into a single "league". And then how does one determine who are the Chicago Cubs programs, vs the Minn. Twins? But I can imagine one hospital saying to another "I'll trade you two surgeons for a gastroenterologist, and a pediatrician to be named later".
I always dreamed of a program director getting on the stage and saying, "In the 2017 Residency Draft, the University of Hard Knocks Orthopedic Surgery Program selects Lev0phed from the Jumbalaya School of Medicine!"

ANd then I go walk up on stage and dude hands me my ball cap and embroidered white coat to hold out for a picture

CGV_042816831_NFL_Draft_Round_1.jpg
 
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