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Should we address ourselves as "doctors?"

Discussion in 'Pharmacy' started by Greatpharma, Aug 24, 2018.

  1. DOOM N GLOOM

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    The pharmacists who refer to themselves as “doctors” are the same ones who think that provider status will save the day, expanding roles of pharmacists into primary care/MTMs will create more jobs and that pharmacist jobs are not makework.

    These are the folks who have “paid their dues” by doing their PGY-3 residencies and think it’s only fair that they be esteemed as an act of validation and self-preservation.

    The folks who vehemently scream that they are “medication experts” and should be treated as such, while they spend 95% of their time in the pharmacy on the phone doing customer service or counting by fives.

    The folks who know no better because they always called their pharmacy school professors “doctors.”

    The folks whose lifelong dream was to “help people” and made personal sacrifices to the tune of 4 years and $200k+ in student loans and have come too far to not be called “doctor.”

    I get it. It’s mental compensation.
     
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  3. AlwaysContrary

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    What about Dentists, optometrists, Podiatrists, etc. that also go by doctor? Or are you so special that everyone should bow down and kiss your feet? :confused:
     
  4. APN-59 rph

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    Dentists..opto's etc. don't generally hang around hospitals....If you hang around hospitals and like to profile around as a Doctor..best be up to date on the advanced life support........
     
  5. CetiAlphaFive

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    The guys who are scared of pharmacists calling themselves doctors are the kind that have a problem with attractive women that intimidate them being in clinical positions or positions of power, I bet.
     
  6. ForgotUserName

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    It isn't that physicians want a monopoly on the title of 'doctor,' rather the general layperson typically does not understand the distinction.
    I can see a pharmacist introducing him/herself as 'Dr. So-and-so' in an academic setting when doing a lecture and that would seem entirely appropriate.
    When the layperson hears 'doctor' they're usually thinking medical doctor. I can see how it may be confusing to a patient if a pharmacist introduced him/herself as 'Dr. So-and-so' in the hospital setting, and this is very likely the reason I have never seen a pharmacist do so in the hospital. I think most people on this forum understand that current pharmacists earn a doctorate degree with the title of 'Dr,' however, when 'doctor' is used in the clinical setting or hospital, without mention of the type of doctor, then the patient very likely has blind faith that the person is a medical doctor. As others have mentioned, if there is a medical emergency and a person yells, "Is there a doctor?" They're clearly referring to a medical doctor.
    I think it all depends on the context as to the appropriateness of a pharmacist introducing him/herself as "Dr..."
     
  7. Doktor_dud3

    Doktor_dud3 CPhT, Pre-Pharmacy

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    Of course there are people who might try to be misleading about their title, but I had no intentions of that.

    "Hello, I'm Dr. Doktor Dud3 and I am your pharmacist./Hello, this is your pharmacist, Dr. Doktor Dud3."

    I don't think that's misleading. I can see where you're coming from, but I just don't see it being much of a problem unless someone wants to make it one by being facetious about their position.
     
  8. AlwaysContrary

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    The hospital near me has a clinic with optometrists and ophthalmologist working together... There's also a dental clinic... also ACLS isn't that hard lol even physicians say that.
     
  9. jjcayce123

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    as you have a link for homeopathy...
     
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  10. Doktor_dud3

    Doktor_dud3 CPhT, Pre-Pharmacy

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    If you'd click it you'd get the joke.
     
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  11. owlegrad

    owlegrad Uncontrollable Sarcasm Machine
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    You ruined it! :p
     
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  12. Pharmd = Phake Doctor

    Pharmd = Phake Doctor Phorum Hedonist
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    Yes, it is misleading! When the general public refers to a doctor, they mean a physician. When non-physicians start referring to themselves as "doctors", they're not doing it for the benefit of the patients, they're doing it for the benefit of their own egos.
     
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  13. projektreverb

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    I love that this has gone on for 3 pages LOL
     
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  14. Doktor_dud3

    Doktor_dud3 CPhT, Pre-Pharmacy

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    Pardon me, I suppose there is quite a lot of ambiguity in the statement: "Hello, I am Dr. McName, your Pharmacist."

    Wouldn't want those patients having a sliver of respect for the profession, now would we?
     
  15. Pharmd = Phake Doctor

    Pharmd = Phake Doctor Phorum Hedonist
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    Those "clinical positions" only exist because the hospital management and the physician groups allow them to exist. There is nothing in the law that mandates that hospitals are required to have pharmacists in clinical roles. Pharmacists don't have prescribing or diagnostic privileges under the law and are dependent upon collaborative practice agreements to provide midlevel or clinical services. I've seen academic medical centers replace pharmacists in the anticoagulation clinic with nurses. The same can be said of other pharmacist-run clinical services.

    When the next recession inevitably happens, the first people to go are the non-essential (e.g. pharmacist-run) clinical services. Too bad, I hope that "hot" clinical pharmacist is able to marry one of the physicians because one of them is going to be unemployed/underemployed and it isn't going to be the physician.

    That's a great way to make enemies with one of the most powerful groups in the hospital. Imagine if the physician representatives decide that they no longer want the pharmacist-run clinical services and want to scale back the staffing levels in the central pharmacy? Not to mention that the physicians will make sure that every P&T committee is a living hell for the pharmacists involved.
     
  16. Pharmd = Phake Doctor

    Pharmd = Phake Doctor Phorum Hedonist
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    Simply giving ourselves the title "doctor" isn't going to garner us respect. Do you think a Doctor of Creative Writing is on the same level as a Medical Doctor? I'd rather earn respect by having standards rather than through deceit.

    It's true that physicians were not the first professionals to use the title of 'doctor.' However, it's through their rigorous training and standards that the term 'doctor' has garnered prestige. Contrast that to pharmacy, where standards are sinking with each passing year. If the title 'pharmacist' is unable to garner respect from the patients, then it is the fault of the pharmacy profession to maintain high standards for its members.
     
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  17. Rouelle

    PhD Pharmacist 7+ Year Member

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    I’m going to disagree with you on one specific point: I would have a tremendous amount of respect for anyone with an earned doctorate in Creative Writing. I know tons of physicians, but I don’t know a single person with a creative writing doctorate. I can’t even imagine, but know there’s not a chance I could have ever done it.
     
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  18. CetiAlphaFive

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    You're going full Jane, bro.

    chill with the "rrreeeeeeeee"
     
  19. Pharmd = Phake Doctor

    Pharmd = Phake Doctor Phorum Hedonist
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    I have to disagree. It's one of those "pay-to-play" humanities degrees you can get if you're willing to foot the bill.

    PhD in English—Creative Writing - University of Denver

    And going through this program doesn't automatically make you a best-selling or critically-acclaimed author. There's probably a near-zero demand for this degree.
     
  20. Rouelle

    PhD Pharmacist 7+ Year Member

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    If you’re willing to foot the bill, and pass the 48 hours of required graduate level courses, the additional coursework to make up a minimum of 90 hours, literature era studies, comprehensive exam at the end of year two, creative writing workshops, etc. I agree that there’s likely very little demand, but that doesn’t necessarily make the degree trivial IMO.
     
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  21. Pharmd = Phake Doctor

    Pharmd = Phake Doctor Phorum Hedonist
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    LOL. I hope you didn't take my comment as a personal attack, as I didn't intend for that. I just wanted to take your quote and use it to highlight the cutthroat nature of hospital politics.

    As to people getting triggered over wanting to use the 'doctor' title: why does it matter? It isn't going to do us any good to be called 'doctor' if the hospital systems decide to replace ambulatory care pharmacists with NPs/PAs, anticoagulation pharmacists with master's-degree nurses, or if they decide to cut their central pharmacy staff.
     
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  22. Pharmd = Phake Doctor

    Pharmd = Phake Doctor Phorum Hedonist
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    Sorry, I don't think a degree in creative writing is comparable to medical school and residency.

    And, truth be told, the majority of graduate students in creative writing go for a master's degree in the form of a MFA or MA. According to the low-energy, fake-news New York Times, there was only 64 MFA creative writing programs in 1994, which has ballooned to 229 MFA programs by 2015. Add to this 152 MA programs in creative writing and you get 381 programs graduating 3000-4000 graduates a year. That's comparable to the number of people graduating PA programs.

    While most PAs go onto to attain gainful employement (for now), I can't say the same for the creative writing types. As this crooked huffpost article explains, If you don't make it big and get the millions, then you're not gonna make a living as a writer, whether or not you have a degree.
     
  23. CetiAlphaFive

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    I'm just joshing you breh
     
  24. John Detter

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    If clinical pharmacist is going to lose their job during the recession, then they did a piss-poor job of documenting what they actually did and the value they bring. Whenever our CFO complains about how much a clinical pharmacist costs, we're able to quickly show that each of our pharmacists achieve an annual cost-avoidance equivalent to 300% of their salary. This doesn't factor in costs of potential lawsuits. In essence we are saving the hospital money. He can grumble all he wants, but he knows its detrimental to cut back on pharmacists.
     
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  25. wazoodog

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    Addressing someone as "Doctor" in a practice or social setting is not the same as addressing a doctorate holder in an academic setting.

    "Doctor" is a title for a primary caregiver or a specialized physician, like how "Medic" is used in some countries.

    Pharmacists or "Chemists" might play an important role in first-line diagnosis, but the traditional role has been in preparation and dispensing of drugs. Rounding with physicians and reviewing medications have their place, but pharmacists simply don't go through the same post-grad training focused on patient examination and diagnosis that dentists, optometrists, and physicians have to invest in.

    If you want people to address you as "Doctor so-and-so" go right ahead but it'll probably come off as lacking social awareness. A good rule of thumb is if you're not comfortable with a flight attendant or restaurant manager requesting you to apply "Doctor" training and experience for someone having a medical emergency, it's better not to insist on being addressed as such. If there is an MD around in that scenario, I'm sure most pharmacists would be more than relieved to defer to the "Doctor".
     
  26. W19

    W19 Account on Hold
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    Lol... They are a lot FM docs that work in the ED
     
  27. wagrxm2000

    wagrxm2000 Do not respond to this
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    This gave me a good chuckle, thank you. I especially like the lacking social awareness part.
     
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  28. emergentmd

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    When I am working at the hospital, most call me Doctor. When I am introducing myself to patients, I call myself Doctor. When I introduce myself to staff, I introduce myself by my full name as I think it is silly to create such a divide my introducing myself as Doctor to the staff. In turn they refer to me as Doctor which is appropriate.

    When I am outside of the hospital, I never introduce myself as Doctor. When I go to another doctor's office, dentist office, eye doctor, etc it is always by my first name. Some may call me by Doctor in the social setting but I never.

    I think it is ridiculous when I come into a patient's room when someone introduces themselves by "doctor x". When I ask what they do, I get Chiropractor, pharmacist, Engineer. I mean.... seriously

    I rather people not know I am a doctor outside of the hospital as I get a bunch of medical questions which I don't want to be rude and tell them to go see their doctor.
     
  29. gwarm01

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    The fact that your CFO is complaining about the cost of clinical pharmacists during a prosperous time should be a red flag. Theoretical cost saving doesn't hold the same weight as the actual salary cost when someone is trying to balance a budget.

    Clinical pharmacy is a non-essential service. It is a nice to have. When the CFO sits down with the director of pharmacy and says you have to reduce your staff by 20%, who do you think is expendable? Are we going to leave the pharmacy unstaffed so you can go to rounds and make suggestions?

    Personally, I would feel safer in hybrid position. Still verifying orders and dispensing medications, but also getting that clinical time in. Easier to justify your position to the bean counters who do not care about or understand what a clinical pharmacist does.
     
  30. BidingMyTime

    BidingMyTime Lost Shaker Of Salt
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    This. Having worked for more than 1 extremely financially unstable hospital in the past, clinical and hours for hybrid positions were the first to go. The core inpatient functions always come first, and hsopitals will tell the director to just have the inpatient pharmacists squeeze in interventions during their "down-time." They don't care if there is any actual "down-time".
     
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  31. Nguyen

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  32. msweph

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    You are 100% right.
    Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
     
  33. AlwaysContrary

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    I was being very facetious.. Don't take life to seriously my dude.

    Also, physicians don't have that kind of power. There is no way that would ever happen. Based on how you are replying to everyone else on this board, you definitely elevate physicians to a god-like level for some reason. So I'm not entirely too surprised by that answer.
     
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  34. SpartanDOnoharm

    Pharmacist Gold Donor Classifieds Approved

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    It makes me sad when pharmacists think they're non-essential. This becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, perpetuating other professions to think we're non-essential staff. When you don't think you're needed, you can't expect other people to think you're needed.
     
  35. AlwaysContrary

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    This hits the nail right on the head. Literally only pharmacist's think they are useless. If only some of these pharmacists that are ruining the profession would search "pharmacist perception curiosity" on the MD board and see that all pharmacists (retail, staff, and clinical I might add!!!) are seen as one of the most essential healthcare members.
     
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  36. APN-59 rph

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    There might be something to this...I can flog pills at high speed all day in some RX mill..as long as the techs do the insurance...I would be lost (actually run out of) a hospital operation.....I have heard that the Medical College of Wisc. is training hospital Pharm-d's right along with the MD's..the idea being that they are used to working together from the start and trust each other...sort of like cockpit resource management in aviation...when any member of the crew senses disaster..they aren't afraid to..well...essentially save themselves...the difference of course being..the medico's don't die...Now, your average knee scraper and various other poultice wallopers won't need this help..as long as they stick to what they are used to...
     
  37. Pharmd = Phake Doctor

    Pharmd = Phake Doctor Phorum Hedonist
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    Jeez, lighten up on the physician hatred. If you keep on making these comments, people are going to think you have a chip on your shoulder. Nothing screams inferiority complex than a person who keeps on disparaging another profession.

    Chill out, dude! Don't resort to ad hominem attacks because you don't like what I say and are incapable/unwilling to dispute my statements. Just because I say that physicians (and even nurses) have more political power in the hospital system doesn't mean I think they're God. Just because I state that medical schools have higher standards than pharmacy schools doesn't mean I think pharmacists are useless. Just because I say that non-traditional pharmacy services are not legally protected and therefore can be staffed by NPs/PAs/RNs, doesn't mean I think pharmacists are unnecessary.

    I'm just pointing out the facts. If you don't agree, then you're more than welcome to make a well-informed argument against them.
     
  38. giga

    Pharmacist U.S. Public Health Service 10+ Year Member

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    I wonder if the idea of being non-essential comes from defining essential based on what the minimum legal requirements are for a hospital to provide X service from a regulatory and reimbursement standpoint. I could see how you would consider clinical pharmacists non essential if you are not necessarily concerned about how the hospital can provide medical services in a functional and effective manner, but rather just how can the hospital provide the service and still get CMS reimbursement and avoid excessive fines and being shutdown by the authorities.

    I am confident that most clinical pharmacists help reduce liability and potential lawsuits, and improve the quality of care in a way that helps keep patient satisfaction scores up and reduces costly readmissions. They also help free up time for physicians so physicians can focus more on services that they are exclusively able and allowed to provide. But the hospital can still operate and provide services without clinical pharmacists, it just means the verifying staff pharmacists and physicians, as well as other ancilliary staff, have to do more lifting, and there is a reduction in safety and quality of care. But as long as the hospital can remain open for business and still generate revenue, the more cynical/short-sighted hospital administrators aren't going to consider clinical pharmacists essential.
     
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  39. Pharmd = Phake Doctor

    Pharmd = Phake Doctor Phorum Hedonist
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    No one on this thread has made that statement. We have, however, made very good arguments for why using the 'doctor' title in the healthcare setting is poor practice. We also provided very good arguments for why non-traditional pharmacy clinical services are not essential to the function of a hospital (as they are not required by law, can only generate cost-avoidance but not cost-reduction, and can be staffed with cheaper, non-pharmacist providers.)

    I'm sure your decision to attend Medical School wasn't based on some loathing or scorn for pharmacists but a likely desire to improve your scope of practice and your job security. Coming from a family with multiple pharmacists, I have great respect for the profession. My criticism of the issues facing our profession comes from a desire to improve our lot. Just because some people don't want to hear about these things doesn't mean they aren't real.

    The one thing that is driving the self-fulfilling prophecy is the denial of pharmacist saturation. It's literally the one thing our professional organizations and the pharmacy schools do not want to address. They keep on talking about non-traditional roles, rounding with physicians, MTM, provider status but refuse to discuss saturation. I would argue that a lack of leadership or initiative by our professional groups and the pharmacy schools to tackle this issue is causing a decline in pharmacist morale (How can you be happy if your profession is actively screwing your job security?)
     
  40. Pharmd = Phake Doctor

    Pharmd = Phake Doctor Phorum Hedonist
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    This is literally the perfect quote for highlighting the insular nature of pharmacists. If there is one characteristic that I really can't stand about pharmacists is their inability to look outside their bubble. If you've ever talked to nurse managers, RTs, administration, etc. you'll realize that they basically do the same thing to justify their staffing levels and the services they provide.

    Also, providing a cost-avoidance isn't the same as providing a cost savings. The former is hypothetical (& often overinflated), while the latter is very real. If you don't think the bean-counter business types don't know the difference, then you need to get out more.

    When the hospital has to lower their expenses due to budget issues, they're going to implement cost saving measures; and the easiest ones to implement is staff reduction.
     
  41. PharmDBro2017

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    Cannot believe this thread is still going.

    As a pharmacist, if you're in any setting other than academia, it is unacceptable to call yourself Dr.PharmDBro or have others refer to you as Dr. PharmDBro.

    End of thread.


    Further:
    When Can Pharmacists Use the Doctor Title? "Within the hallowed halls of academia, I permit my students to address me as “doctor,” if for no other reason than to help instill in them a sense of professionalism. However, as my patients have regularly mistaken me for a physician since my days as a student pharmacist, I’m familiar with the salient points raised by the AMA’s campaign.

    Because of this, whenever I’m at the hospital, I ask my students to refrain from addressing me as “doctor” in patient care areas, which I started doing before the AMA campaign existed. I do this not because of a law, but because it’s what I believe is best for my patients and my image as a professional. "


    For entertainment (a lot of people in this thread should read this):
    Pharmacists are NOT DOCTORS!
     
    #140 PharmDBro2017, Sep 17, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
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  42. CetiAlphaFive

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    Yup.
    There are DENTISTS treating Sleep apnea and making fat cash.

    And here are these jokers saying clinical pharmacists are useless
     
  43. Doktor_dud3

    Doktor_dud3 CPhT, Pre-Pharmacy

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    At the end of the day what difference does it make to anyone if a pharmacist chooses to call him or herself a doctor? Assuming they graduated from a PharmD program they have the right to. If we're tossing around hypothetical situations about medical emergencies, it just seems like a reach to justify putting the profession further into the dirt. At the end if the day, it harms nothing. Maybe some see garnering a more positive/respectful image of the lowly pharmacist as a negative, though.
     
  44. Pharmd = Phake Doctor

    Pharmd = Phake Doctor Phorum Hedonist
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    Sure, if Stolen Valor's your thing. It would bother me to misrepresent myself to a patient, but I have a conscience.

    On another note: I found out that clinical lab scientists are now inducting their entering classes with White Coat Ceremonies.


    So far, NPs, PAs, RNs, DPTs, PharmDs, chiropractors, dentists and clinical lab scientists have all adopted this lame 90's medical school tradition. I guess everyone likes to dress up as a physician.
     
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  45. wagrxm2000

    wagrxm2000 Do not respond to this
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    I wear a white coat everyday.
     
  46. SELDANE

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    If whatever you are wearing helps you bare the elements then I consider that to be a coat. If what you are wearing defines your position then it is a "smock".
     

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