Single Mom Blues

[Fantastik19]

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[MiesVanDerMom]

Hi. I'm not going to be a single mom because my SO will be moving with me but I can relate. I only have one school near me and I am sooo wanting to get in so I have my parents nearby to help with my two kids (they will be 3 and 1.5 and the 3 year old has health/developmental issues) I think it's possible to do med school as a single mom, especially if your daughter is not an especially difficult child (my older one is HARD but my younger son is so mellow and easy). I think you've hit the nail on the head when it comes ot childcare. There are reliable nannies/childcare options out there but you'll have to be careful about finding one amongst the many not-so-reliable. It also depends what med school you go to. Some med schools for instance really don't require you to go to class so you can just study on your own all day and spend your evenings and weekends with your kids. Others are not so good for that. It also depends how well your chld sleeps! If they go to bed at 830 and sleep well, you have plenty of time to study and do housework etc at night. Don't give up your dream.

 

[futuredo32]

Some med schools offer an extended or decelerated option making med school last five years instead of four. It makes your coures load a little lighter for the academic years. This wouldn't be a solution for the clinical years though.
Good luck to you!

 

[Fantastik19]

thank you both for replying.
i wont give up, i just get a little discouraged sometimes.

 

[UCLA2000]

I am really feeling down, I'm not sure if I will be able to make the whole medical school thing work. Currently I am a Post-Bacc. I've completed Bio 1&2 and Chem 1... I start Phys 1 and Chem2 this coming Spring. Okay... here's my dilemma... I have a 5 mo. old. Her father and I ARE together, but he's on his way to Podiatry school next yr. He probably wont have a hard time getting in the school thats near us NYCPM, but I cant be so certain that i'll get in a Medical School near us, considering how competitive it is.
Thus, I'm facing the fact that I might end up a single parent while in med school. Has anyone done this without friends and family to help (or know of anyone who has)? I am going to apply to all the schools near where I will have familial support, but I think that I will be drastically decreasing my chances of acceptance if I only apply to those schools and not more.
I realize that it is possible to get a nanny... but I used to be a nanny in undergrad and I remember how unreliable I was at times, I know my bf will help pay for a nanny, but uugghhh!!! It's just not fair! I feel like my daughter is only my responsibility, the man can just leave... he can fulfill his dreams... he can do whatever he wants. I have to do eveything. My mom is not supportive of my decision to become a doctor... she'd rather me become a Jehovah's Witness and devote my life to god.
I really feel like I have no support in this. I'm an excellent student and I know I have what it takes, but I feel like i'm the only one going through this... someone please let me know i'm not the only one.

You seem to have an accurate perception of how the world works. I don't tend to sugar coat things, so here it is:

The brutal truth is that in the end men can just walk away, and the full brunt of the responsibility of the baby falls upon your shoulders. This is especially true for women who unilaterally decide to have the child (i.e. if their bf did not want to have the baby but they insisited...it is afterall THEIR body). I have no way of knowing if your situation is similar or if you have a very supportive bf.

That being said, your post raises very good questions. Questions which you should have thought about PRIOR to having a child. Now that you have this child, it is your responsibility to ensure that you don't screw up its life as well. Some people would argue that the well being of the baby should come first.

The fact of the matter is that medical school is incredibly emotionally and physically demanding. You cannot even begin to imagine how utterly taxing it is, until you've done it. It destroys long term relationships and long distance relationships. During the first two years you'll spend 5-9 hours per day in class, followed by endless hours studying in the library. When your third year hits you literally disappear off the face of the earth. You go home to sleep, and you don't sleep much. The dilemma that you will face is that if you get a nanny, not only will it be outrageously expensive, but you will not have any time to spend with your toddler. If you study child development, you'll discover that during the first two years, the children form their attachments and have a huge amount of seperation anxiety etc. It raises the question about whether or not the constant abscence of both you and your bf will cause irreversible emotional trauma to the child. Or, the other option is that your child will attach itself to the nanny as a surrogate mother. There have been studies which show that this occurs. Also keep in mind that those nannies will have no vested interest in reading to the child, or doing those things which have been shown to increase the IQ of the child. In addition, it would also be good to think about what sorts of values your child will learn from their nanny. Does your nanny value higher education? What is their work ethic etc.

The short answer to your initial question is Yes. It is possible for you to do med school. As some posters have stated, some med schools have decelerated programs, however you will still disappear from your child's life in the clinical years. Mind you, you will recieve NO SPECIAL TREATMENT from the docs in the clinics because you have a child. You will not be allowed to leave early etc. (those docs probably have families too, and if not, then perhaps residency is what is keeping them from having kids). When you finally do get out of the clinics you will have to study for monthly national shelf exams.

Instead of asking "is it possible to do med school with a newborn", a better question might be "is it fair to your newborn"?

That's for YOU to decide.

 

[goodluck2]

I am a single mom, and I a new emmigrant. So here I am - no family, no support, two kids. You know, I think we still have right to dream and go to our goals even if we have to be a mother, father, provider, and a student at the same time.
My kids are growing, and belive you or not so do yours. You want them to appriciate education, science etc. Only you can teach them. When I did my Organic Chem homework, my daughter did her 2nd grade h/w right near me, and my son tried to read near us. They try to be as I am.
The most important think for me - to be with them when I am with them. Just enjoying every single second of being together. I just try to do my best. i am not God. I wish them the best childhood and I do my best. But I don't beleive that mother with broken dreams can be the best mother...

 

[crrchngr]

That being said, your post raises very good questions. Questions which you should have thought about PRIOR to having a child. Now that you have this child, it is your responsibility to ensure that you don't screw up its life as well. Some people would argue that the well being of the baby should come first.

Instead of asking "is it possible to do med school with a newborn", a better question might be "is it fair to your newborn"?

That's for YOU to decide.

If you don't mind me asking...do you have children? I believe children are very resilient creatures...I have 2 and I want to do what is best for them, and on the same token, what is best for me. Honestly, I don't exactly know what to say, I just felt as if I needed to say something. I think that med school can be done by anyone who has the drive and motivation. Screw all the nay sayers.

 

[crrchngr]

I am a single mom, and I a new emmigrant. So here I am - no family, no support, two kids. You know, I think we still have right to dream and go to our goals even if we have to be a mother, father, provider, and a student at the same time.
My kids are growing, and belive you or not so do yours. You want them to appriciate education, science etc. Only you can teach them. When I did my Organic Chem homework, my daughter did her 2nd grade h/w right near me, and my son tried to read near us. They try to be as I am.
The most important think for me - to be with them when I am with them. Just enjoying every single second of being together. I just try to do my best. i am not God. I wish them the best childhood and I do my best. But I don't beleive that mother with broken dreams can be the best mother...

Good on ya...I think what you're doing is great.

 

[Heather74]

You seem to have an accurate perception of how the world works. I don't tend to sugar coat things, so here it is:

The brutal truth is that in the end men can just walk away, and the full brunt of the responsibility of the baby falls upon your shoulders. This is especially true for women who unilaterally decide to have the child (i.e. if their bf did not want to have the baby but they insisited...it is afterall THEIR body). I have no way of knowing if your situation is similar or if you have a very supportive bf.

That being said, your post raises very good questions. Questions which you should have thought about PRIOR to having a child. Now that you have this child, it is your responsibility to ensure that you don't screw up its life as well. Some people would argue that the well being of the baby should come first.

The fact of the matter is that medical school is incredibly emotionally and physically demanding. You cannot even begin to imagine how utterly taxing it is, until you've done it. It destroys long term relationships and long distance relationships. During the first two years you'll spend 5-9 hours per day in class, followed by endless hours studying in the library. When your third year hits you literally disappear off the face of the earth. You go home to sleep, and you don't sleep much. The dilemma that you will face is that if you get a nanny, not only will it be outrageously expensive, but you will not have any time to spend with your toddler. If you study child development, you'll discover that during the first two years, the children form their attachments and have a huge amount of seperation anxiety etc. It raises the question about whether or not the constant abscence of both you and your bf will cause irreversible emotional trauma to the child. Or, the other option is that your child will attach itself to the nanny as a surrogate mother. There have been studies which show that this occurs. Also keep in mind that those nannies will have no vested interest in reading to the child, or doing those things which have been shown to increase the IQ of the child. In addition, it would also be good to think about what sorts of values your child will learn from their nanny. Does your nanny value higher education? What is their work ethic etc.

The short answer to your initial question is Yes. It is possible for you to do med school. As some posters have stated, some med schools have decelerated programs, however you will still disappear from your child's life in the clinical years. Mind you, you will recieve NO SPECIAL TREATMENT from the docs in the clinics because you have a child. You will not be allowed to leave early etc. (those docs probably have families too, and if not, then perhaps residency is what is keeping them from having kids). When you finally do get out of the clinics you will have to study for monthly national shelf exams.

Instead of asking "is it possible to do med school with a newborn", a better question might be "is it fair to your newborn"?

That's for YOU to decide.

WOW! You obviously do not have children and have no idea about parenthood. I have two children. They are old enough to understand what I want to do and what I am doing so I guess I am lucky for that. But just because the children are younger does not mean that they will be harmed in any way by a mother who is happy and following her dream. With a comment like, "That being said, your post raises very good questions. Questions which you should have thought about PRIOR to having a child. " it is a dead giveaway that you don't have children and maybe shouldn't give advice on this topic. True med school is extremely demanding but anything is possible. A child is much happier and benefits much more from a parent or parents that are happy. Quality time counts much more than quantity! I say go for it!

 

[odrade1]

WOW! You obviously do not have children and have no idea about parenthood. I have two children. They are old enough to understand what I want to do and what I am doing so I guess I am lucky for that. But just because the children are younger does not mean that they will be harmed in any way by a mother who is happy and following her dream. With a comment like, "That being said, your post raises very good questions. Questions which you should have thought about PRIOR to having a child. " it is a dead giveaway that you don't have children and maybe shouldn't give advice on this topic. True med school is extremely demanding but anything is possible. A child is much happier and benefits much more from a parent or parents that are happy. Quality time counts much more than quantity! I say go for it!

I am constantly amazed at the cavalier attitude so many young parents seem to have about parenthood, or that so many people have about bringing children into the world. There is nothing more important that someone can do than raise their children properly. This is important both to the victim (the child) and to society. Love doesn't mean much to a young child if there is no stability to go along with the love. Not being able to figure out where home is, who the mommy is, or whether daddy is man A or man B in Mommy's (or the Nanny's) life is a tragically ****ty environment to raise a kid in. Person A wants to be a good parent, not have a spouse, and simultaneously study or work 60-80 hours per week. You can't be good at both in such a situation.
If you have a supportive spouse and decent financial means, your job will be very tough (as a med student and mom). If you do not have a supportive spouse, either your studies or the child will suffer for your ambitions. Children are resilient if they feel secure about their place in their world and in their relationship to you. The irregular schedule of the third&fourth years, followed by the residency is absolutely in direct conflict with promoting those feelings in a child if there is only one parent (or both parents work more than full time). Only if the mother has the proper support can this goal be obtained without consequences to the child. Why be a parent if you really want to spend the majority of your energy on yourself?

My guess is that Heather74 has a decent support network. Either that or 1) her kids are already old enough to take care of many of their personal and emotional needs or 2) she is deluding herself about whether she is a good parent. I stand by my claim that you aren't really doing a good job of being a parent if there is only one of you to go around and you have to rely on school + daycare to raise your young (under 8) children. If the popular parenting theory is that you don't have to put much into children to get an (acceptable) result, then I am not surprised that children are acting the way they do in public, towards their teachers, nor that the incidence rates of childhood psychiatric disorders continue to climb.

You say, "But just because the children are younger does not mean that they will be harmed in any way by a mother who is happy and following her dream." This is a misleading comment. Of course no child is harmed by a happy mother. However, a child can be harmed by an unstable home environment. Being a parent is a tremendous personal and social responsibility. So is being a doctor. Maybe the OP can do both. Women have better developed study skills than men, on average, so maybe she can pass her classes and raise the kid. Most med schools do allow you to spend 80-90% of your time at home your first two years. However, after that, the nanny and the boyfriend will be raising the kid most of the time for the next 5 years. Still, you have HUGE responsibilities to your child, and to the state & your future patients.

I have no children, and won't unless I can adopt. And I won't do that until I am well finished with school, residency, and a fellowship. Some people have the energy to raise a kid, do well in school, and maintain a relationship with a spouse and friends. Only the OP knows if this is her case.

The OP indicated that she felt like the guy didn't have any real responsibilities; this really isn't true. He is responsible for the child. You can insist on him taking half-custody of the child, paying for the child's expenses, etc. This is true whether or not he moves away. In truth, men have a psychologically easier time walking away from children than do women. And many of them do. However, the OP should consider (and be ready to employ) legal actions to obtain what she and the child need from the father.

One option for the OP is to consider waiting a couple of years before going to med school. If you wait until the kid is 2 or 3, you can spend most of the first two years of medschool at home with the kid. By that point the kid is in elementary school and you can reduce the amount of hours you need daycare or a nanny. You will still be gone a great deal, but a five year old understands a lot better than a 3 year old that mommy has to go to work & that they have to go to "afternoon school." Still, 40-50hr/wk daycare for a kid is the human equivalent of kennelling a dog. Usually painful, sometimes necessary, and always a choice to avoid if you can help it. But really, are you ready to work 80 hours a week in a residency while your kid is 6 or 7 years old?! Why even be a parent in the first place if you are a single person who aspires to an 80 hour a week job during a child's formative early years!!?

If you have the right support network (a partner who values what you are doing and is willing to sacrifice some of his goals for yours & the child's, nearby parents or siblings, superclose friends who you REALLY trust, and enough money) then you could be decent parent while doing clinics and your residency. But if you don't have the right support network, then you sacrifice the child's welfare for your own interests, which is just plain wrong. Wait until the kid starts grade school if your support network sucks. If it doesn't, consider going earlier.

 

[motherofalldrs]

Tired of being lectured by non-parents who are constipated with fear, backed up by "studies" showing how you should live your life? You say you are an excellent student and have what it takes. You have to follow this inspiration no matter where it takes you, no matter how long. You would be bitter otherwise. I do not know how old you are. I am 35 and just got into Baylor on my second time applying to med school. I realized in 1996, when my second son was born, that I wanted to be a doctor. It took me a year and 1/2 to get to take a summer class of college algebra which was a pre-req for chem 1 which was a pre-req for bio 1. I do not believe in putting babies in daycare. I don't really believe in putting anyone under 3 in day care, but have done it off and on when I had fallings out with my mother. My boys are now 12 and 9. If I had known at the beginning how many years it would take, I would not have had the courage to begin. But it is like Gandalf says, and one of the other moms has at the foot of her postings, we must decide what we will do with the time that are given.
How long will your boyfriend be in podiatry school? Perhaps you guys want to get married and you wait until he is a podiatrist before you go to med school. If you don't want to commit to marriage, I guess you don't want to commit to waiting for him to help you through med school later. In no way have you ruined your life. You have taken steps toward becoming human, which is what we should all aspire to before becoming doctors.

I am really feeling down, I'm not sure if I will be able to make the whole medical school thing work. Currently I am a Post-Bacc. I've completed Bio 1&2 and Chem 1... I start Phys 1 and Chem2 this coming Spring. Okay... here's my dilemma... I have a 5 mo. old. Her father and I ARE together, but he's on his way to Podiatry school next yr. He probably wont have a hard time getting in the school thats near us NYCPM, but I cant be so certain that i'll get in a Medical School near us, considering how competitive it is.
Thus, I'm facing the fact that I might end up a single parent while in med school. Has anyone done this without friends and family to help (or know of anyone who has)? I am going to apply to all the schools near where I will have familial support, but I think that I will be drastically decreasing my chances of acceptance if I only apply to those schools and not more.
I realize that it is possible to get a nanny... but I used to be a nanny in undergrad and I remember how unreliable I was at times, I know my bf will help pay for a nanny, but uugghhh!!! It's just not fair! I feel like my daughter is only my responsibility, the man can just leave... he can fulfill his dreams... he can do whatever he wants. I have to do eveything. My mom is not supportive of my decision to become a doctor... she'd rather me become a Jehovah's Witness and devote my life to god.
I really feel like I have no support in this. I'm an excellent student and I know I have what it takes, but I feel like i'm the only one going through this... someone please let me know i'm not the only one.

 

[tiredmom]

My kids were 2 1/2 and 8 when I started med school. The first 2 years, I was able to spend more time at home than I did working full-time as a RN. My study time was from when they went to bed until midnight or so. Granted, my spouse is supportive. But by utilizing after school care and day care for my youngest until she was old enough for pre-k, it's been do-able, and I feel like I'm a decent parent. My children are happy and doing well. Third year has been tough, but it's half-way over I don't presume to tell you what to do. I couldn't imagine it with an infant... simply because I was so exhausted during that first 1 1/2 years of both my kids' lives.

 

[efex101]

Also everyone needs differnt amount of study time...for some studying from the time the kids go to bed until midnight is NOT enough so beware. Assume that you will be studying from the time you get done with classes (after a dinner with the family) until late at night and then weekends. If you need less good but many students need a lot of time to get things down...assume the worst and go from there. Medical school without a lot of support will be extremely difficult period. Everyone needs to be highly aware of this. Most parents in my class myself included DO have a spouse that is responsible for most of the parenting duties. Also some schools do NOT allow to be home for 80% of the first two years so make sure that when applying you KNOW what your schedule might be like.

 

[UCLA2000]

WOW! You obviously do not have children and have no idea about parenthood. I have two children. They are old enough to understand what I want to do and what I am doing so I guess I am lucky for that. But just because the children are younger does not mean that they will be harmed in any way by a mother who is happy and following her dream. With a comment like, "That being said, your post raises very good questions. Questions which you should have thought about PRIOR to having a child. " it is a dead giveaway that you don't have children and maybe shouldn't give advice on this topic.

Why do I feel that I am somewhat qualified to respond? Well, I'm a non trad, I have gone through medical school, and I have spent 6 years teaching to elementary/middle school kids in inner cities. I have seen first-hand the product of what occurs without parental supervision/nurturing/attention, so please spare me the lecture on the resilience of children, and how kids "turn out ok".

Having kids does not imbue the parent with some sort of profound wisdom so perhaps you should save me the "holier than thou routine". Any idiot can have a child. Hell, even children can have children.

With regards to no harm done to children by following your dreams...I've dreamt of leaving everything behind and heading for Hawaii, or studying in India. Those dreams are neither practical, nor beneficial for my family. They're just dreams. Not all dreams are beneficial and not all dreams should be pursued. Hell, I dreamt I could fly the other night, but I'm not about to go jump off a bridge to test that theory!

The question at hand is whether or not it would be emotionally devastating to a 1 or 2 year old to be torn from both of their parents for the majority of the day while they're in class and later studying. Is it emotionally healthy for a neonate/infant to be raised by a nanny.

Any way you slice it, the research has proven that it is not.

Look into Harlow's research on attachment as well as personality development models which are taught in medical school regarding the psychological formation of children.

 

[UCLA2000]

deleted

 

[UCLA2000]

My kids were 2 1/2 and 8 when I started med school. The first 2 years, I was able to spend more time at home than I did working full-time as a RN. My study time was from when they went to bed until midnight or so. Granted, my spouse is supportive. But by utilizing after school care and day care for my youngest until she was old enough for pre-k, it's been do-able, and I feel like I'm a decent parent. My children are happy and doing well. Third year has been tough, but it's half-way over I don't presume to tell you what to do. I couldn't imagine it with an infant... simply because I was so exhausted during that first 1 1/2 years of both my kids' lives.

You have a supportive spouse, she has a podiatry student who may pay for "half of the day care costs". You have a 2.5 year old, she has an infant. They are entirely different scenarios.

 

[Fantastik19]

Thanx for the replies... i have a lot to think about.

 

[efex101]

I have to agree with some of the posts about children and absent parents...I think a lot of us love to mentally masturbate to this mantra that "oh the kids will be fine they can bounce right back" also the old saying it's about quality versus quantity...sure...ask any kid if they want mommy/daddy there for most of the time or if they are content with a couple of hours that are quality time. Most kids will answer they would perfer mommy/daddy there a lot of the time. Kids do need at least one parent that is a constant there...I am sure that some kids *will* be okay but many will not be okay. I am also a parent non-trad and prior military (with both of us being deployed) and know first hand how difficult it can be on kids when both parents are working a lot. I am not trying to say how folks should raise their kids bc everyone does what they want and some of us are better at it than others, but to assume that being gone all day and seeing your kid for a few hours per day is okay is ludicrous! of course that is NOT okay no matter how great the daycare is. My kids are now older and I am a second year student and they still "miss" me because I am gone so much either in class/clinic or studying. They do have my husband who is always there for them but still...

 

[UCLA2000]

If you don't mind me asking...do you have children? I believe children are very resilient creatures...I have 2 and I want to do what is best for them, and on the same token, what is best for me. Honestly, I don't exactly know what to say, I just felt as if I needed to say something. I think that med school can be done by anyone who has the drive and motivation. Screw all the nay sayers.

And this coming from the same person that stated this next post???

My kids are so demanding on me as a mother, and I am just starting my post-bacc this coming spring (I have to take all upper level science since my BA didn't require anything to speak of). I am worried that they (the kids) are going to make it very hard to even finish post-bacc courses. My schedule will be entirely different. I have to keep working full-time...mortgage and cars are too much for my husband to do w/ just his paycheck. I completed my BA with 1 kid and preg w/ 2nd. Just wondering if the post-baccs were conisderably more rigorous. If I only take 1 or 2 at a time, will I be doing myself a favor? If anyone has a similar situation...I'm all ears.

You have no clue what you're getting into.

If you are having trouble managing post-bac courses then how exactly do you expect to be a full time medical student!?? Are your bills going to just "vanish" when you have to quit your job to go to school full time?>

 

[LADoc00]

uugghhh!!! It's just not fair! I feel like my daughter is only my responsibility, the man can just leave... he can fulfill his dreams... he can do whatever he wants. I have to do eveything.

I thought Roe v. Wade settled this whiny crap?

Seriously, you are the architect of your situation, no one else.

And trust me, the reality of medicine is farrrrrrrr from the dream.

 

[Fantastik19]

I thought Roe v. Wade settled this whiny crap?

Seriously, you are the architect of your situation, no one else.

And trust me, the reality of medicine is farrrrrrrr from the dream.

Thank you... now stop posting on my behalf I had enough of your advice. I get all of your points, and I honestly have learned my lesson about using this website for the purpose of support.

 

[1Path]

but to assume that being gone all day and seeing your kid for a few hours per day is okay is ludicrous! ..

This is one of the very rare occasions where I'll have to disagree with you on this one.

Everyone gets so up in arms about kids needing parents for "most" of the day which I think is ridiculous (except for infants) but has anyone stopped to think about those kids who because of death, divorce, or illness CAN'T have one/both of their parents around for most of the day? What about kids in orphanges? These children are no more likely to have a troubled lives than any other kid, if and only if there are people who care about the child making a postive influence in their lives. THAT is the crucial factor here, having loving caring adults in the life of a child, not necesarily WHO provides that love, support, and caring. Not every child has a choice in who provides them with stability and to say that if their parents arenn't with them most of the day is insane, IMHO.

 

[1Path]

Why do I feel that I am somewhat qualified to respond? Well, I'm a non trad, I have gone through medical school, and I have spent 6 years teaching to elementary/middle school kids in inner cities. I have seen first-hand the product of what occurs without parental supervision/nurturing/attention, so please spare me the lecture on the resilience of children, and how kids "turn out ok".

I have also taught inner city kids as a teacher and I am a parent of 2 (formerly a divorced parent of 1). And for you to compare what Heather74 is saying to inner city children is to compare apples and apes.

What is happening to inner city kids is NOT the result of their parents going back to school to better their lives, so lets put that assinine argument to rest. Some of these kids have parents that are substance abusers, others are born to teenage parents with little education, some have parents that just don't give a dam, but contrary to popular belief, MOST of the folks who live in the inner city are law abiding citizens who want the best for their kids JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER PARENT. And for some to do that, it unfortunately reqires the children spend extended time with people other than their parents so their parents can do things like keep food on the table. However, this is where teachers like YOU and I and volunteers are SUPPOSED to come in, to provide that love, support and caring they may not be getting at home. (I didn't just teach the children, I actually dealt with them in THEIR neighborhoods, did you?).

So if all you can say about your time in the 'hood is that you taught there, then you aren't saying much. Any idiot can teach, right? It takes a true soldier however, to make a REAL difference in these communities.

 

[1Path]

Fantastik19, I sent you a PM.

It never ceases to amaze me how people with NO children can offer advice about what is best for children. Gimmie a freakin break. But this does bring up a good observation. Women will continue to be women's own WORST enemies!!!

 

[OddNath]

You cannot even begin to imagine how utterly taxing it is, until you've done it. It destroys long term relationships and long distance relationships. During the first two years you'll spend 5-9 hours per day in class, followed by endless hours studying in the library.

I really can't comment on parenting, or being a clinical year student, but many MS1's and MS2's study at home, and watch lectures on their computers at double speed at home, and are doing fine. It really depends on the medical school.
And some relationships suffer, some marriages fail, but that's not necessarily the case for everyone.

 

[UCLA2000]

MOST of the folks who live in the inner city are law abiding citizens who want the best for their kids JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER PARENT. And for some to do that, it unfortunately reqires the children spend extended time with people other than their parents so their parents can do things like keep food on the table.

Which is exactly why I made the comparison in the first place. The OP's neonate's father is going to be full time podiatry and if the mother is full time med. Absent parents working to put food on the table or go to school. How is that really so different than what happens in the inner cities?

In both cases the infant suffers from a lack of parental supervision/nurturing/attention. I think that we can both agree that kids don't just magically turn out "ok" without it. This brings us to your next argument:

this is where teachers like YOU and I and volunteers are SUPPOSED to come in, to provide that love, support and caring they may not be getting at home.

Actually if we're splitting hairs here, the role of teachers is to teach. That is what they are paid to do, that is what they're SUPPOSED to do.

While I'll agree that in many cases they do "love, care for, and support" their kids, the fact remains that they do not have as much vested interest as a parent would for their own child. They don't read to them in their spare time (after school), help them do homework, or supervise their afterschool activities.

No matter how much you kick and scream, it does not change the fact that it is not the teacher's role or responsibility to take on the role of an absent parent. It is ridiculous to even make that argument. Teachers have their own families at home to deal with and their own kids to raise. If they don't raise their own kids then who will?

(I didn't just teach the children, I actually dealt with them in THEIR neighborhoods, did you?).So if all you can say about your time in the 'hood is that you taught there, then you aren't saying much. Any idiot can teach, right? It takes a true soldier however, to make a REAL difference in these communities.

In response to your question, Yes. I spent a lot of time in their neighborhoods. In fact I volunteered teaching to supplement their science curriculum. I also volunteered to teach martial arts and did career planning as well as life counseling. I wasn't paid for my services at all.

There is a hell of a lot more that I can say about my work in inner cities but this is not a pissing contest.

If you really have a question about the quantity or quality of my work or the impact that I've made in inner city communities (both in the US and internationally) then you can always send me a pm.

Until then, pay me the common courtesy of dropping the "holier than thou" routine until you have enough information to adequately assess my work.

 

[UCLA2000]

This is one of the very rare occasions where I'll have to disagree with you on this one.

Everyone gets so up in arms about kids needing parents for "most" of the day which I think is ridiculous (except for infants) but has anyone stopped to think about those kids who because of death, divorce, or illness CAN'T have one/both of their parents around for most of the day? What about kids in orphanges? These children are no more likely to have a troubled lives than any other kid, if and only if there are people who care about the child making a postive influence in their lives. THAT is the crucial factor here, having loving caring adults in the life of a child, not necesarily WHO provides that love, support, and caring. Not every child has a choice in who provides them with stability and to say that if their parents arenn't with them most of the day is insane, IMHO.

Problem is that we ARE talking about an infant here. Her child is 5 months old.

 

[UCLA2000]

Fantastik19, I sent you a PM.

It never ceases to amaze me how people with NO children can offer advice about what is best for children. Gimmie a freakin break.

I've never smoked crack. Does that mean that I can't tell my patients that it's bad for them? I've never gone swimming with hungry sharks...but it sounds like it would be a bad idea too.

Have you stopped to consider that perhaps SOME of us do not have children because we have not yet finished school and achieved our career goals? LADoc brought up Roe vs Wade. I won't go that far, but I will say that there is something to be said about proper planning.

Maybe the reason why some of us don't have kids is that we've done soul searching, planned ahead, and felt that it would be unfair and selfish to be absent parents or have our kids raised by nannies.

Some of us are even choosing less time consuming specialties so that we can be there with our future children and give them the nurturing and support that kids require.

Don't discount my point of view just because I had the foresight to not have children yet. Maybe those of us without kids SHOULD be giving advice because, apparently, we've given this a little thought.

Like I said before, any idiot can have a kids. Even kids can have kids. Having kids does not imbue the parent with profound wisdom.

 

[nextgendoc]

I have a girlfriend who had a baby the year before she entered medical school. Her marriage ended when she started her first year. How did she possibly get through medical school and residency as a single parent? She had a girlfriend (medical student) who helped her. How did she get through residency in a new city? Again friends. These friends are also her family and that is who raises children. We talk about children like we live in isolation. The community raises all of us. And I personally believe when you follow a path that is clear and true for you, whatever you need will show up. But we must get out of our own way. Kill the worrying. All any of us can do is plan well, execute and live the unfolding of events. One thing I have learned in my 41 years is that people make comments based on how they feel. Most folks can't get past their own hangups, fears, laziness, socialization to possibly view scenarios from another persons perspective so be careful who you tell your plans to or better still be more amused at the answers. Oh by the way that baby that was born almost 16 years ago is a good student, respectful, law abiding, girl magnet (according to my teenage daughters), and definitely college bound. The moral of the story. Figure out the kind of life you want and plan for the different scenario's. What other people think is irrevelant and don't expect another person to always want to be a passenger in your car - they have their own car to drive.

 

[1Path]

Don't discount my point of view just because I had the foresight to not have children yet. Maybe those of us without kids SHOULD be giving advice because, apparently, we've given this a little thought..

You came down on Heather74 like a ton a bricks with VERY harse judgement and she didn't deserve that.

FYI, unless you've frozen some of your eggs, or graduated med school/residency in your early 20's you'd better be REAL careful about "planning". There are literally thousands of women like YOU with the great careers, husbands, homes, ect and NO kids because they planned too much, and yes there is such a thing. You may have the "career" now, but I doubt there's a single Mom in this thread that would trade motherhood to be in YOUR shoes.

Todays's "foresight" could easily become tomorrow's "forgoing".

 

[1Path]

I have a girlfriend who had a baby the year before she entered medical school. Her marriage ended when she started her first year. How did she possibly get through medical school and residency as a single parent? She had a girlfriend (medical student) who helped her. How did she get through residency in a new city? Again friends. These friends are also her family and that is who raises children. We talk about children like we live in isolation. The community raises all of us. And I personally believe when you follow a path that is clear and true for you, whatever you need will show up. But we must get out of our own way. Kill the worrying. All any of us can do is plan well, execute and live the unfolding of events. One thing I have learned in my 41 years is that people make comments based on how they feel. Most folks can't get past their own hangups, fears, laziness, socialization to possibly view scenarios from another persons perspective so be careful who you tell your plans to or better still be more amused at the answers. Oh by the way that baby that was born almost 16 years ago is a good student, respectful, law abiding, girl magnet (according to my teenage daughters), and definitely college bound. The moral of the story. Figure out the kind of life you want and plan for the different scenario's. What other people think is irrevelant and don't expect another person to always want to be a passenger in your car - they have their own car to drive.

This truly is an age/maturity thing isn't it? I just hope I wasn't this judgemental as some of the folks here when I was in my 20's.

 

[1Path]

Have you stopped to consider that perhaps SOME of us do not have children because we have not yet finished school and achieved our career goals? LADoc brought up Roe vs Wade. I won't go that far, but I will say that there is something to be said about proper planning.

Premeds wommen, women medical students/residents have the highest rate of abortion of ANY other "group" of women. There's a lot to be said about planning but much more to be said about dealing with the cards you're dealt in life.

 

[efex101]

Path I was not saying that you have to spend the WHOLE day with kids but to assume that a couple of hours a day is enough is just nonsense (although we can agree to disagree on this) IMHO. Of course if there is NO choice *that* is different like you said with maybe one parent passing away or a single mom that HAS to work FT to bring in the bacon that is totally different than choosing to do something that is going to put you away for over 16 hours per day...and believe I have been there and it was NOT pretty (yes I chose this path). Sure, some kids are super adaptable and okay with this but many are not...that is all I am saying. What work for one kid will not work for another. Also, most kids prefer time with parents ask them...not just "quality" time but them knowing your home, being there for them if they need you, etc...

 

[LADoc00]

Premeds wommen, women medical students/residents have the highest rate of abortion of ANY other "group" of women. There's a lot to be said about planning but much more to be said about dealing with the cards you're dealt in life.

Whoa! Where did you get the statistic?? Seriously. Like women premeds have a higher rate than Oakland hookers addicted to speed?? Please back that gem up with a link at least!

Do they get em done at their home institution? Crazy. Do they get a discount if a fellow resident does the D&C? Can an OB resident do one on herself? I guess another ? is who is knocking em all up?? Are these the results of resident happy hour events gone wrong?

Seems if this was true there we would be flooded with news stories about how the high IQ gene pool was all going into medical waste.

 

[QofQuimica]

Also, most kids prefer time with parents ask them...not just "quality" time but them knowing your home, being there for them if they need you, etc...

I think that this is true. My mom stayed home with my sister and me until we had both graduated from high school. That was her decision, and she wanted to do it, and I for one am immensely grateful to her for it. Even now, we still talk almost every day, and she has been reading all of my essays and supporting me through this whole application process. My mom's main job will be to be our mom until the day she dies; that is what she chose to devote her life to doing.

I also recognize that I am not willing to do what she did, and I do not intend to have children, certainly not before med school, but not afterward, either. Some people may be able to have it all, but I am not one of them. I think I can be a good physician scientist and a good aunt to my sister's children, but I cannot be both a good mother and a good physician scientist. Maybe it's my own shortcoming, and some of you are simply bigger, better women than I. Maybe you can do it all where I cannot. But I have to accept my own limitations and be realistic about what *I* am capable of doing.

Either way, we should not tear each other apart for the decisions we've each made. No one's decision is easy, and there is no need to be cruel. UCLA2000 has some good points, albeit s/he could have said them a lot more diplomatically. The OP's baby is here and that is a fact; why berate her for not planning more carefully when it will change nothing? OP, I agree with whomever said that you can increase your chances of success if you're willing to wait to start medical school until your daughter starts kindergarten and your bf finishes podiatry school in four years. I think that is the most sensible advice given the reality of your current situation. Best of luck to you with your post bac, medical school, and your daughter.

 

[1Path]

Whoa! Where did you get the statistic?? Seriously. Like women premeds have a higher rate than Oakland hookers addicted to speed?? Please back that gem up with a link at least!

I did a stint at a health department, THAT'S how I know and no I don't have a link. Use the internet if you like and find the info yourself, just keep in mind that it's not all that far fetched an idea.

 

[1Path]

Seems if this was true there we would be flooded with news stories about how the high IQ gene pool was all going into medical waste.

With your "high flalutin'" LA lifestyle, ask yourself an honest question, how would getting a fellow med student/resident/fellow pregnant (assuming she was pretty enough ) have "factored" into your lifestyle?

 

[1Path]

I think I can be a good physician scientist and a good aunt to my sister's children, but I cannot be both a good mother and a good physician scientist. Maybe it's my own shortcoming, and some of you are simply bigger, better women than I. Maybe you can do it all where I cannot. But I have to accept my own limitations and be realistic about what *I* am capable of doing.

I think this highlights what should have been the intention of this thread.

We ALL have our own choices to make in life and it does NO ONE, especially women a bit of good to be anything short of supportive of each other.

 

[UCLA2000]

You came down on Heather74 like a ton a bricks with VERY harse judgement and she didn't deserve that.

FYI, unless you've frozen some of your eggs, or graduated med school/residency in your early 20's you'd better be REAL careful about "planning". There are literally thousands of women like YOU with the great careers, husbands, homes, ect and NO kids because they planned too much, and yes there is such a thing. You may have the "career" now, but I doubt there's a single Mom in this thread that would trade motherhood to be in YOUR shoes.

Todays's "foresight" could easily become tomorrow's "forgoing".

Perhaps you found my reply so harsh because I was actually lumping replies to comments made by various posters into one post. My post would easily be taken out of context unless you read each and every post prior to it.

I'm a graduating 4th year. I really don't need a lecture about fertility from you.

As LADoc posted, I am the architect of my own situation.

Having kids is kinda like cooking bread. If you take it out too early the bread won't rise, if you wait too long the bread burns and you're screwed.

For those of you that don't cook...the same occurs with sex. Take it out too early and you get nothing, too late and you're screwed (which may be why some of you are in this situation in the first place! ) Timing is everything.

One small point of contention, you have NO way of knowing whether or not the parents on this thread wish that they had waited a little longer prior to having their kids. Giving up their kids entirely is not the same as waiting until they're ready financially, relationship wise, and emotionally.

 

[UCLA2000]

Premeds wommen, women medical students/residents have the highest rate of abortion of ANY other "group" of women. There's a lot to be said about planning but much more to be said about dealing with the cards you're dealt in life.

That's the funny thing about medicine. You can't just throw out wild statistics without evidence. I am very incredulous about the validity of that statistic.

Even IF I thought the stat was valid (which I don't), I would argue that perhaps abortion IS those women's way of dealing with the cards they have been dealt in life? It is possible that many want kids but realized that at that stage in their lives it would be unrealistic or unfair (to the kids).

It's really a moot point because I'm not buying that statistic.

 

[UCLA2000]

UCLA2000 has some good points, albeit s/he could have said them a lot more diplomatically.

Absolutely I could have. Look at my first post, there's a nice disclaimer on there. I don't coddle people and I don't sugar coat things. I am straight forward, honest, and I speak my mind.

 

[efex101]

Path we are supporting of women with kids BUT we also have to take the rosy colored glasses OFF! ladies go to mommd.com and see for yourself how very difficult is motherhood and doctorhood at the same time and excelling at both...we are not trying to discourage anyone but to be open and frank about how medical school does interfere with being there for the kiddos. If you notice something MOST mothers/fathers that are in medical school with kids DO HAVE a very supportive spouse/friends/family that are THERE for the kids they are not doing this solo. Anyone that assumes that medicine and motherhood are completely compatible at 100% each is just plain smoking crack IMHO. ALL the docs that I see that DO want to be highly involved with their families are working medicine part-time so just fyi.

 

[QofQuimica]

Absolutely I could have. Look at my first post, there's a nice disclaimer on there. I don't coddle people and I don't sugar coat things. I am straight forward, honest, and I speak my mind.

Yes, you do, and I appreciate that about you (and even agree with most of what you've said.) I'm certainly not suggesting you should lie to the OP or make her plight out to be less difficult than it really is. But I'm not sure that brutal honesty was what she was really wanting to hear here, albeit nicely disclaimed as you said.

 

[efex101]

Yeah that is the problem with forums...you have to be so very sensitive and say things nicely because folks get bent out of shape if you shoot straight from the hip. I guess it would be nice for posters that ask questions to post "how" they would like the answers...he he...I want my answers straight up on the rocks OR I want my answers with a lot of sugar coating and hand-holding let us all sing together kumbaya...

 

[UCLA2000]

But I'm not sure that brutal honesty was what she was really wanting to hear here

I'm an ED doc not a politician

 

[1Path]

That's the funny thing about medicine. You can't just throw out wild statistics without evidence. I am very incredulous about the validity of that statistic.

Even IF I thought the stat was valid (which I don't), I would argue that perhaps abortion IS those women's way of dealing with the cards they have been dealt in life? It is possible that many want kids but realized that at that stage in their lives it would be unrealistic or unfair (to the kids).

It's really a moot point because I'm not buying that statistic.

That's great becasue I don't really give a **** if you and anyone else buys or doesn't buy the statistic.

Funny thing about threads around here. If I posted a thread about black people loving watermelon not a single person would ask me to "provide a link, post a statistic". But post a comment about afact that affect the majority, and all kinda posts about posting a link come out of everyone a$$.

 

[UCLA2000]

Funny thing about threads around here. If I posted a thread about black people loving watermelon not a single person would ask me to "provide a link, post a statistic".

Despite what you may think, some of us here ARE minorities. Which brings us to my next question. Which are you black or racist?

 

[1Path]

Path we are supporting of women with kids BUT we also have to take the rosy colored glasses OFF! ladies go to mommd.com and see for yourself how very difficult is motherhood and doctorhood at the same time and excelling at both...we are not trying to discourage anyone but to be open and frank about how medical school does interfere with being there for the kiddos. If you notice something MOST mothers/fathers that are in medical school with kids DO HAVE a very supportive spouse/friends/family that are THERE for the kids they are not doing this solo. Anyone that assumes that medicine and motherhood are completely compatible at 100% each is just plain smoking crack IMHO. ALL the docs that I see that DO want to be highly involved with their families are working medicine part-time so just fyi.

My shades are black, thank you!

Maybe YOU are supporting folks with kids but so many of the "high and mighty" of SDN are NOT. I haven't disagreed with anything YOU said except that kids need more than a couple hours/day but I probably should qualify that by saying that I think school aged kids do fine with fewer hours/day duriung WEEKDAYS. Again, this is only MY opinion but to be honest now that I have a school aged kid, I think it would be a hellva lot easier to go to med school with an infant/toddler.

About Mommd in so many cases, is NOT the website for docs balancing family/medicine successfully. You have these women that decided to become surgeons AND have 5 kids, now how smart is that? An ob/Gyn residency with a young child is just plain crazy unless you have a nanny, cook, and a Dad willing to chip in a LOT. So the Mom is tired?? Well Duh, what did she expect? I get so sick of women complaining about how rough motherhood is with 3 kids when they simply could have "controlled" the situation in the first palce and solved the problem right there. I know women docs who made a conscious NOT to have kids because they wanted to be a surgeon so if this is the goal and a person thinks they may not be able to handle it with motherhood, then either don't become a surgeon or don't have kids. You can always change your mind about either (via adoption) later.

So maybe all the happy women docs you know are only working part-time, but ALL of the happy women docs I know not only work full-time in fields both in and out of medicine, but that also appear to have used some common semse when picking a residency (like derm, public health, or path) and more sense when deciding how many kids to have.

This idea that the field of medicine should bend around a women's illogical personal choices is not only not fair to men, but not fair to those of us who looked at life realistically and THEN made decisions.

 

[1Path]

Despite what you may think, some of us here ARE minorities. Which brings us to my next question. Which are you black or racist?

Clarence Thomas is a "minority" too but I can't recall the last time he spoke at the NAACP national meeting.

Lemme tell you how "minority" works around here. If you have blue eyes, blond hair and both your parents are white but one gradmother is Native American, then to Tri-Delta, you're white. But when it's time to apply to med school, you're Native American.

So given my very mixed heritage, I don't know what the hell I am, but according to the klan, I beeza negra!

PS- And apparently "negras" can be racist too!
PSS- I absolutely HATE watermelon!

 

[UCLA2000]

Clarence Thomas is a "minority" too but I can't recall the last time he spoke at the NAACP national meeting.

Lemme tell you how "minority" works around here. If you have blue eyes, blond hair and both your parents are white but one gradmother is Native American, then to Tri-Delta, you're white. But when it's time to apply to med school, you're Native American.

So given my very mixed heritage, I don't know what the hell I am, but according to the klan, I beeza negra!

PS- And apparently "negras" can be racist too!

You go girl. We have some of those "minorities" at my school too. I'm too "dark" to pass

I like watermelon...especially the kind that has been soaked in a bottle of vodka!