Siri is against abortion... are you?

Started by CodeBlu
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Pro-life = anti-abortion
Pro-choice = allowing the female her reproductive rights over her body and making an informed decision

Basically anyone who says they will not perform an abortion has to give me a reason why they refuse to do so.

@NickNaylor, you said you wouldn't refer because you were morally objecting to the abortion... in that sense aren't you denying your patient their autonomy?
You're going against everything it means to be a physician. You don't have to provide the abortion, but not giving her the options goes against every ethics class I ever attended...

I think most people are morally objecting to abortion. You're ending a life. However morality is rarely logic, just, or righteous. Just making that distinction that Morality =/= Righteousness/ Good Actions
 
Of course and, as I hope I have been able to express in previous posts, I do not believe that abortion is morally wrong. I was just disagreeing with your particular argument as to why.

I'm conflicted as to if it's morally wrong, but I can see what you mean.

I wasn't trying to say that just because abortion has been occurring for so long means it's not wrong, just that it's silly to try and stop it now because it can't be stopped. Which, yes, could be said for murder and rape, but those are inherently wrong.
 
Pro-life = anti-abortion
Pro-choice = allowing the female her reproductive rights over her body and making an informed decision

Basically anyone who says they will not perform an abortion has to give me a reason why they refuse to do so.

@NickNaylor, you said you wouldn't refer because you were morally objecting to the abortion... in that sense aren't you denying your patient their autonomy?
You're going against everything it means to be a physician. You don't have to provide the abortion, but not giving her the options goes against every ethics class I ever attended...

No, the patient has complete autonomy. They are fully able, capable, and free to pursue an abortion with whatever provider they wish EXCEPT me. I'm not sure how that even comes close to affecting patient autonomy. The patient is just as capable of picking up a phone book or using Google to find a provider as I am.

I'm not sure how I'm going against "everything it means to be a physician" just because I don't think unwanted pregnancies as a result of consensual sex represent harm and suffering to the patient. As I mentioned, I'm against state-banned abortion because the woman should have the right to have an abortion if she wants. That doesn't somehow mean that I'm obligated to support that choice.
 
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Your logic is flawed.


"The main argument of the anti-choice movement boils down to this: a human zygote, blastocyst, embryo, or fetus is a human being with a right to life, and abortion is therefore murder and should be illegal. This assumption is deeply flawed.

At the outset, let me say that from a pro-choice point of view, the status of the fetus is a peripheral issue. Regardless of whether a fetus is a human being or has rights, women will have abortions anyway, even if it means breaking the law or risking their lives. Even women who believe that abortion is murder have chosen to get abortions, and will continue to do so1. That's why we should leave the decision up to women’s moral conscience, and make sure that they are provided with safe, legal, accessible abortions. Because ultimately, the status of a fetus is a matter of subjective opinion, and the only opinion that counts is that of the pregnant woman. For example, a happily pregnant woman may feel love for her fetus as a special and unique human being, a welcome and highly anticipated member of her family. She names her fetus, refers to it as a baby, talks to it, and so on. But an unhappily pregnant woman may view her fetus with utter dismay, bordering on revulsion. She cannot bring herself to refer to it as anything other than "it," much less a human being. She is desperate to get rid of this unwelcome invader, and when she does, she feels tremendous relief. Both of these reactions to a fetus, and all reactions in between, are perfectly valid and natural. Both may even occur in the same woman, years apart.

However, anti-choicers insist not only that a fetus is a human being, but that this status is an objective scientific fact. Unfortunately, they are assuming the very thing that requires proving, thereby committing the logical fallacy of "begging the question." Biology, medicine, law, philosophy, and theology have no consensus on the issue, and neither does society as a whole. There will never be a consensus because of the subjective and unscientific nature of the claim, so we must give the benefit of the doubt to women, who are indisputable human beings with rights.

Anti-choicers must claim that fetuses are human beings, of course, or they really have no case against abortion. Since this claim is the cornerstone of their position, it should be critiqued in detail, from philosophical, legal, social, and biological perspectives2. Even though it has little relevance for the actual practice of abortion, the assertion that fetuses are human beings has a potentially great impact on the rights of women."

from: http://www.abortionaccess.info/fetusperson.htm

Once again, I am pro-choice; however, I find this argument to be incredibly flawed. It is essentially stating that because a) it has been happening for years and b) because a woman may not see her fetus as a human worthy of not being aborted, it is therefore OK. This is flawed logic. Using the example of rape, people have been committing the act for thousands of years, even though it is illegal and considered to be an assault; furthermore, while one one person may view the gender they find to be sexually attractive to be worthy of the right to choose what happens to his/her own body, many others feel that people have no such right. That alone does not make rape right.
 
I think most people are morally objecting to abortion. You're ending a life. However morality is rarely logic, just, or righteous. Just making that distinction that Morality =/= Righteousness/ Good Actions

I'm not morally objecting to abortion. Not at all. If the female wants to do it, it's her RIGHT.

You can't say the fetus is alive without the mother. So I don't understand what you're saying there...

If the mother is dead or dying, do you cut the fetus out of the mother's womb?

"Hey, sorry kid, your mom's dead and you're probably going to lead a pretty screwed up life now... but HEY YOU'RE ALIVE!"
 
Pro-life = anti-abortion
Pro-choice = allowing the female her reproductive rights over her body and making an informed decision

Basically anyone who says they will not perform an abortion has to give me a reason why they refuse to do so.
pro-choice = pro-murder: see I can make ridiculous claims too. Let's be civil please.

In that case why would you perform an abortion? If someone believes as i do that the mother is not the only person involved, then choice is not the only thing that is on the table. The issue becomes much less clear at this point.
 
a) No. Just as, to give another scenario, if I were the only plastic surgeon in a 50 mile radius and a woman asked me to give her a breast augmentation, I would refuse because I think cosmetic surgery is asinine. Obviously there are differences between abortion and cosmetic surgery, but the two scenarios are similar in several ways in my eyes. Neither (again, assuming otherwise healthy individuals) is medically indicated, and by refusing to perform the procedure I won't be putting the patient in harm's way. The patient would be inconvenienced, sure, but inconvenience isn't enough to obligate me to ignore my own values and support the patient's in my opinion.
They are similar in that both statistically are likely to lead to a better life, higher pay, and potentially high status in life. Attractiveness is correlated with higher pay and employment, Abortion is allows the women to lead her life and pursue higher education.

b) I think the hypothetical you're mentioning is highly unlikely. Regardless, if a pregnancy was causing legitimate, life-threatening harm, then yes, I would refer for (or, if absolutely necessary, perform) an abortion - as a physician I must put my patient's health in front of my own values. Elective abortions in the case of unwanted pregnancies due to consensual sex don't fit that bill in my opinion.

So... what you're saying is you want this child to grow up with no opportunities and be wiping your ass all your life? See my previous point on morality.

c) I think the main argument supporting abortion in the case of rape is that the woman was impregnated through no fault of her own and presumably refused sex. As a result, she's saddled with a burden that she shouldn't be responsible for, and it's highly unfair that she should have to provide care for a child while the father sits in jail unable to contribute to the significant costs of child rearing. I think that's the most compelling argument supporting abortions in rape cases.

This is fallacious, free will is an illusion.
 
No, the patient has complete autonomy. They are fully able, capable, and free to pursue an abortion with whatever provider they wish EXCEPT me. I'm not sure how that even comes close to affecting patient autonomy. The patient is just as capable of picking up a phone book or using Google to find a provider as I am.

I'm not sure how I'm going against "everything it means to be a physician" just because I don't think unwanted pregnancies as a result of consensual sex represent harm and suffering to the patient. As I mentioned, I'm against state-banned abortion because the woman should have the right to have an abortion if he/she wants. That doesn't somehow mean that I'm obligated to support that choice.

When was the last time you were pregnant?

I've never been pregnant, and I assume you haven't either... just because it's consensual sex, birth control methods are not foolproof... even when used correctly...so if the fetus is unwanted... why does she have to continue with the pregnancy?
 
Pro-life = anti-abortion
Pro-choice = allowing the female her reproductive rights over her body and making an informed decision

Basically anyone who says they will not perform an abortion has to give me a reason why they refuse to do so.

@NickNaylor, you said you wouldn't refer because you were morally objecting to the abortion... in that sense aren't you denying your patient their autonomy?
You're going against everything it means to be a physician. You don't have to provide the abortion, but not giving her the options goes against every ethics class I ever attended...

👍

It's funny how threads like this can REALLY alter your opinion of people.. (not that I'm implying that it has changed your view, codeblu. Im strictly speaking for me.)
 
pro-choice = pro-murder: see I can make ridiculous claims too. Let's be civil please.

In that case why would you perform an abortion? If someone believes as i do that the mother is not the only person involved, then choice is not the only thing that is on the table. The issue becomes much less clear at this point.

The mother may not be the only one involved; however, it is her resources that are being used, possibly against her will, and, therefore, she is the one who should make the decision.

Any particular reason you have ignored my responses? I have given you two.

Edit: Just saw it, Will respond in a moment.
 
pro-choice = pro-murder: see I can make ridiculous claims too. Let's be civil please.

In that case why would you perform an abortion? If someone believes as i do that the mother is not the only person involved, then choice is not the only thing that is on the table. The issue becomes much less clear at this point.

I fail to see anything ridiculous... someone who is pro-life is anti-abortion... plain and simple...
 
This is fallacious, free will is an illusion.

The woman is still perfectly able to pursue an abortion. I'm not the only abortion provider in the world. Frankly you're argument fails to demonstrate why it's necessary that I should have to ignore my own values and support the patient's when the patient's life isn't in danger.
 
When was the last time you were pregnant?

I've never been pregnant, and I assume you haven't either... just because it's consensual sex, birth control methods are not foolproof... even when used correctly...so if the fetus is unwanted... why does she have to continue with the pregnancy?

You're making an emotional argument and still ignoring the basic question that I'm posing: what makes me so special that I have to tell this woman where to get an abortion? What is it about my position as physician that makes me the only Yellow Pages in the world? By refusing to refer her I'm not taking away her rights.
 
Personally? Pro-life. It bothers me deeply that people view an abortion as a last line of birth control when a baby is conceived of consensual sex. I have personal reasons for feeling that way.

I will also say that the strongest woman I know was raped in her junior year of highschool, carried the child to term, then gave it up for adoption. Years later they found each other and the child has a beautiful family, the mother does too.
 
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I'm not morally objecting to abortion. Not at all. If the female wants to do it, it's her RIGHT.

You can't say the fetus is alive without the mother. So I don't understand what you're saying there...

If the mother is dead or dying, do you cut the fetus out of the mother's womb?

"Hey, sorry kid, your mom's dead and you're probably going to lead a pretty screwed up life now... but HEY YOU'RE ALIVE!"

See my point on morality =/= something that is right or good. Abortion is a termination of a child, a child which would have likely grown up in a **** situation and become crap.
I don't need to deny that it's something that might have become life, but I also don't have to make it clear that this also is crap argument and fails to stand up against logic.
 
You're making an emotional argument and still ignoring the basic question that I'm posing: what makes me so special that I have to tell this woman where to get an abortion? What is it about my position as physician that makes me the only Yellow Pages in the world? By refusing to refer her I'm not taking away her rights.

You're HER physician. The one she trusts with her health... she's asking YOU for help. You DENY her. She's asking for YOUR medical opinion. YOU went to medical school, the patient 9.9/10 times did not. Hence, YOU are obligated to provide her a referral since you hold the knowledge to inform her of her options.
 
When was the last time you were pregnant?

I've never been pregnant, and I assume you haven't either... just because it's consensual sex, birth control methods are not foolproof... even when used correctly...so if the fetus is unwanted... why does she have to continue with the pregnancy?
This should be common knowledge to all sexually active persons. That being said, I personally think that one should only engage in sexual activity if one is prepared for consequences. And before I get attacked I'm not promoting abstinence until marriage and what not, but rather until one is financially secure and emotionally/mentally mature.
 
See my point on morality =/= something that is right or good. Abortion is a termination of a child, a child which would have likely grown up in a **** situation and become crap.
I don't need to deny that it's something that might have become life, but I also don't have to make it clear that this also is crap argument and fails to stand up against logic.

I can't imagine you've taken a class in logic or philosophy with how you're arguing...
 
The woman is still perfectly able to pursue an abortion. I'm not the only abortion provider in the world. Frankly you're argument fails to demonstrate why it's necessary that I should have to ignore my own values and support the patient's when the patient's life isn't in danger.

I wasn't arguing to accomplish that my friend.
 
pro-choice = pro-murder: see I can make ridiculous claims too. Let's be civil please.

In that case why would you perform an abortion? If someone believes as i do that the mother is not the only person involved, then choice is not the only thing that is on the table. The issue becomes much less clear at this point.

I guess it depends on how you view the mother and the fetus. I personally believe that the life of someone who is actually here trumps the life of someone who might be here in the future. The idea of giving rights to a person that hasn't even been born yet is a little ridiculous, in my opinion.
 
You're HER physician. The one she trusts with her health... she's asking YOU for help. You DENY her. She's asking for YOUR medical opinion. YOU went to medical school, the patient 9.9/10 times did not. Hence, YOU are obligated to provide her a referral since you hold the knowledge to inform her of her options.

My medical opinion is that there is no pathological basis for receiving an abortion. Sure, I'll be happy to tell her that she's free to pursue an abortion. I've informed her of her options at that point. She's entirely free to use that knowledge to find a provider willing to perform an abortion; I'm neither hiding options from her nor am I inhibiting her ability to find that "care," and by "care" I don't mean treating a disease. Because let's not fool ourselves: in an otherwise healthy woman, an abortion isn't treating a medical condition.
 
http://contraception.about.com/od/abortion/a/RoevWade.htm

I'm sorry, I guess most of you missed the part where a woman has a right to an abortion during the first 2 trimesters of pregnancy... seeing as how abortion is a fundamental right under the US constitution...

oh and prohibiting it... or saying it is morally wrong would violate the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment that protects against state actions to deny the right to privacy, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO A WOMAN'S QUALIFIED RIGHT TO TERMINATE HER pregnancy.
 
I can't imagine you've taken a class in logic or philosophy with how you're arguing...

Alright, so what parts of my argument do you take offense to?

And what part of my argument does not actually enhance yours? Honestly, life is a hierarchy, things are more important than others. That's Aristotle 101...
 
http://contraception.about.com/od/abortion/a/RoevWade.htm

I'm sorry, I guess most of you missed the part where a woman has a right to an abortion during the first 2 trimesters of pregnancy... seeing as how abortion is a fundamental right under the US constitution...

oh and prohibiting it... or saying it is morally wrong would violate the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment that protects against state actions to deny the right to privacy, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO A WOMAN'S QUALIFIED RIGHT TO TERMINATE HER pregnancy.

How about my right to not be compelled to do things I'm morally opposed to? Since when did the physician become some non-entity that has no rights?
 
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http://contraception.about.com/od/abortion/a/RoevWade.htm

I'm sorry, I guess most of you missed the part where a woman has a right to an abortion during the first 2 trimesters of pregnancy... seeing as how abortion is a fundamental right under the US constitution...

oh and prohibiting it... or saying it is morally wrong would violate the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment that protects against state actions to deny the right to privacy, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO A WOMAN'S QUALIFIED RIGHT TO TERMINATE HER pregnancy.
It is not a fundamental right under the U.S. Constitution. Only a court interpretation of the Constitution. The Constitution does not directly mention abortion.

Also, you are allowed to say it is immoral. Thoughtcrime does not exist. Nor should it exist.

Second, Roe v. Wade could be overturned in the future. Just because the supreme court rules on something does not mean they are right. This is shown throughout history. Using legal precedent to argue the morality something does not make sense. Using the arguments made for the legal precedent does though. Which is what we were arguing.
 
It is not a fundamental right under the U.S. Constitution. Only a court interpretation of the Constitution. The Constitution does not directly mention abortion.

Also, you are allowed to say it is immoral. Thoughtcrime does not exist. Nor should it exist.

Second, Roe v. Wade could be overturned in the future. Just because the supreme court rules on something does not mean they are right. This is shown throughout history. Using legal precedent to argue the morality something does not make sense. Using the arguments made for the legal precedent does though. Which is what we were arguing.

The U.S. education system has failed.
 
It is not a fundamental right under the U.S. Constitution. Only a court interpretation of the Constitution. The Constitution does not directly mention abortion.

Also, you are allowed to say it is immoral. Thoughtcrime does not exist. Nor should it exist.

Second, Roe v. Wade could be overturned in the future. Just because the supreme court rules on something does not mean they are right. This is shown throughout history. Using legal precedent to argue the morality something does not make sense. Using the arguments made for the legal precedent does though. Which is what we were arguing.

The U.S. education system has failed.

Failed so hard.
 
It automatically follows that abortion should not occur just as it automatically follows that innocent people should not just be killed.

The mother knew beforehand that a pregnancy could very well occur. The mother gave this human life. I don't think that means she should be allowed to just take it away. Children drain their parents resources for some 18 years as it is.

As for the other thing. I don't know. It is an interesting hypothetical about how much you really owe to those around you. Then again, in the case of pregnancy the analogy breaks down as I did not create the person's life. I still don't know though. Thank you for giving me someting interesting to think about.

The question is if the mother is killing the child in the way that we usually use the word. The fetus is unable to maintain life outside of the womb. Thus, it is not reasonable to equate abortion to stabbing a stranger on the street. By aborting, the mother is simply not allowing the fetus to use her resources.

You bring up the point that the mother knew pregnancy could occur. In most cases, I would agree that this is true (sadly, I do not believe some realize that no method of birth control is 100%). To give a few other hypothetical situations, then:

1) You agree to let your younger cousin to come live with you, as he has nowhere to go -- ie, to use your resources. Once there, however, he begins to wreck havoc on your life. He eats all of your food [without your permission]; he is abusive towards your boyfriend/girlfriend, causing a strain in your relationship; his behavior, on numerous occasions, causes you to miss work; and so forth. You want to kick him out -- ie, to prevent him from using your resources. Of course, you knew there was a small chance that he could behave like this; however, you did not agree to him behaving like this and most would still say you have the right to kick him out, even if it means he would be homeless.

To bring this back to abortion, when someone has sex, they likely know that there is small chance of pregnancy, birth control or not. That does not mean a woman consents to being pregnant, however. If the egg fertilizing is the equivalent of your cousin coming in to live with you and becoming disruptive, and you believe that you have a right to kick your cousin out, why does the women not have the right to stop the fetus from using her resources?

Once again, it may be nice if you tolerate your cousin or the fetus; but are you obligated to?

2) A lot of things carry a known risk to them; however, that does not automatically mean that if a person engages in said risky activity that they automatically must endure the consequences. For example, when you walk outside, there is a small chance of you being attacked. You know there is a risk of that happening. Yet, most would say that you still have a right not to be attacked.

When a mother chooses to raise a child, she is allowing that child to use her resources. There is no force.

a) No. Just as, to give another scenario, if I were the only plastic surgeon in a 50 mile radius and a woman asked me to give her a breast augmentation, I would refuse because I think cosmetic surgery is asinine. Obviously there are differences between abortion and cosmetic surgery, but the two scenarios are similar in several ways in my eyes. Neither (again, assuming otherwise healthy individuals) is medically indicated, and by refusing to perform the procedure I won't be putting the patient in harm's way. The patient would be inconvenienced, sure, but inconvenience isn't enough to obligate me to ignore my own values and support the patient's in my opinion.

a) But the patient would be in harm's way. Using high blood pressure as an example, there is a whole list of complications that can arise from it. By refusing the patient an abortion, she is in harm's way.
b) Though I would not consider the two equivalent due to my opinions on abortion (see above), I would also ask why the women wants an augmentation. If she was in the same distress, I would argue that, yes, you would be putting her in harm's way. I would also ask what the difference, in the case of augmentation, is between the women seeking it with health problems and the women without. Both are motivated by similar emotions.

b) I think the hypothetical you're mentioning is highly unlikely. Regardless, if a pregnancy was causing legitimate, life-threatening harm, then yes, I would refer for (or, if absolutely necessary, perform) an abortion - as a physician I must put my patient's health in front of my own values. Elective abortions in the case of unwanted pregnancies due to consensual sex don't fit that bill in my opinion.
As in the case with these situations -- that, yes, are unlikely -- it is consensual, unwanted and posing a health risk.

c) I think the main argument supporting abortion in the case of rape is that the woman was impregnated through no fault of her own and presumably refused sex. As a result, she's saddled with a burden that she shouldn't be responsible for, and it's highly unfair that she should have to provide care for a child while the father sits in jail unable to contribute to the significant costs of child rearing. I think that's the most compelling argument supporting abortions in rape cases.
Understood. Is there anything in particular causing you to hesitate, then?

Edit: Just to be clear, I do not see you as being inherently unethical for refusing to perform abortions. In most cases, I do believe in physician's choice as well as the patient's.
 
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You're HER physician. The one she trusts with her health... she's asking YOU for help. You DENY her. She's asking for YOUR medical opinion. YOU went to medical school, the patient 9.9/10 times did not. Hence, YOU are obligated to provide her a referral since you hold the knowledge to inform her of her options.

It is within a physician's discretion to decline to treat a patient in non-emergent circumstances, as far as I am aware.
 
See above. I'm not sure what I would do in the case of rape. That's a particularly difficult situation, and I think reasonable people can make valid arguments both for and against abortion in that .

Um, how is that a difficult situation? Whats a valid argument for forcing a rape victim to undergo an unwanted pregnancy? You might not think that if it was your girlfriend, wife, or daughter who was raped and impregnated. Pro life groups are about as rational as religious institutions. Bunch of ****ing idiots.
 
It is within a physician's discretion to decline to treat a patient in non-emergent circumstances, as far as I am aware.

Yeah totally. He doesn't have to treat her.

Nick mentioned previously that he wouldn't even refer the patient to someone who would perform the abortion. That's what I have a problem with.

You can totally decline to perform the abortion... but declining a referral because you think she shouldn't get an abortion?

Am I the only one who sees how wrong this is, and imposing on the patient's rights?
 
a) But the patient would be in harm's way. Using high blood pressure as an example, there is a whole list of complications that can arise from it. By refusing the patient an abortion, she is in harm's way.
b) Though I would not consider the two equivalent due to my opinions on abortion (see above), I would also ask why the women wants an augmentation. If she was in the same distress, I would argue that, yes, you would be putting her in harm's way. I would also ask what the difference, in the case of augmentation, is between the women seeking it with health problems and the women without. Both are motivated by similar emotions.

As in the case with these situations -- that, yes, are unlikely -- it is consensual, unwanted and posing a health risk.

Understood. Is there anything in particular causing you to hesitate, then?

For (a), I was working under the assumption that both the woman and fetus were normal and healthy. As I mentioned, if a pregnancy is causing life-threatening harm, an abortion would obviously be indicated. However, vague symptoms like "distress" or hypertension are, in my very limited clinical judgment, far from warranting an abortion.

I have no issue with women having the right no have an abortion for whatever reason they want. My moral beliefs on this issue are no better than someone else's, so there's no reason why I should have the ability to limit their rights. If an abortion is medically indicated, I would have no problem referring the patient to a provider. If the situation is emergent and action on my part was necessary, I would do what was needed to ensure my patient's safety. Where I draw the line, however, is when abortion is effectively used as retroactive birth control. I have the right - as long as my patient isn't being directly harmed - to not provide nor, in my opinion, to assist my patient in seeking an abortion. Just as my moral views shouldn't infringe on others' rights, others' moral views shouldn't infringe on my rights.
 
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To argue this is rather pointless as we are all/will be protected under various conscience laws that protect one from being discriminated against for performing/not performing, referring/not referring, etc for abortive procedures.

http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/civilrights/faq/providerconsciencefaq.html

§ 238n. Abortion-related discrimination in governmental activities regarding training and licensing of physicians
(a) In general
The Federal Government, and any State or local government that receives Federal financial assistance, may not subject any health care entity to discrimination on the basis that--
(1) the entity refuses to undergo training in the performance of induced abortions, to require or provide such training, to perform such abortions, or to provide referrals for such training or such abortions;
 
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I don't know why I actually decided to chime in...

My thought is that it shouldn't be illegal, but that doesn't mean the government needs to support it since not everyone in the US would be willing or possibly desiring the usage of those services. (I'm not religious, but I'll play the game to make everyone as happy as can be with this. If you don't want one, then don't ask for one. Just don't tell others they can't.) If I were a physician in the situation of being qualified to deal with abortions (like FM or OB/GYN), I'm not sure what I would do.

Using an example to support GeekChick I think it was, I know a person who exists from a mom who had had her tubes cut and cauterized - no, the tubes did NOT grow back together. So, yes, even surgical sterilization can fail.

Anyway, I completely understand your position NickNaylor. I don't understand why it is a problem. Especially with the way that clinics and patients can be, I'm sure the patients have the ability or know someone with the ability to guide them to another physician who can do what they seek. Doctor shopping anyone?

It's interesting to read what other people think on the matter.
 
Um, how is that a difficult situation? Whats a valid argument for forcing a rape victim to undergo an unwanted pregnancy? You might not think that if it was your girlfriend, wife, or daughter who was raped and impregnated. Pro life groups are about as rational as religious institutions. Bunch of ****ing idiots.

Well, there went the civility. This board does well above average with this stuff though. I am always happy to have a conversation here.
 
Um, how is that a difficult situation? Whats a valid argument for forcing a rape victim to undergo an unwanted pregnancy? You might not think that if it was your girlfriend, wife, or daughter who was raped and impregnated. Pro life groups are about as rational as religious institutions. Bunch of ****ing idiots.

A valid argument is the life interest of the fetus. We may disagree about whether or not that right is legitimate, but your argument that it isn't is no better than my argument that it is.