Siri is against abortion... are you?

Started by CodeBlu
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For (a), I was working under the assumption that both the woman and fetus were normal and healthy. As I mentioned, if a pregnancy is causing life-threatening harm, an abortion would obviously be indicated. However, vague symptoms like "distress" or hypertension are, in my very limited clinical judgment, far from warranting an abortion.
I suppose this is where we will have to simply agree to disagree, as, though I would not say you should be legally obligated to perform an abortion in such situations, I would consider a negative impact on emotional health and the physical symptoms that it can result in (ie, hypertension) being in harm's way and, by your own previous statements, something that would warrant an abortion. I respect that you do not see it that way.

I have no issue with women having the right no have an abortion for whatever reason they want. My moral beliefs on this issue are no better than someone else's, so there's no reason why I should have the ability to limit their rights. If an abortion is medically indicated, I would have no problem referring the patient to a provider. If the situation is emergent and action on my part was necessary, I would do what was needed to ensure my patient's safety. Where I draw the line, however, is when abortion is effectively used as retroactive birth control. I have the right - as long as my patient isn't being directly harmed - to not provide nor, in my opinion, to assist my patient in seeking an abortion. Just as my moral views shouldn't infringe on others' rights, others' moral views shouldn't infringe on my rights.
Once again, I would still argue that the above is an example that would warrant a referral by your own statements. I believe, however, that you should offer to give a referral in all cases; but I understand why you consider it a gray area.

I agree fully with the bolded.

@Whatyousay: I am apparently now you and you are now I.
 
I suppose this is where we will have to simply agree to disagree, as, though I would not say you should be legally obligated to perform an abortion in such situations, I would consider a negative impact on emotional health and the physical symptoms that it can result in (ie, hypertension) being in harm's way and, by your own previous statements, something that would warrant an abortion. I respect that you do not see it that way.

Once again, I would still argue that the above is an example that would warrant a referral by your own statements. I believe, however, that you should offer to give a referral in all cases; but I understand why you consider it a gray area.

I agree fully with the bolded.

@Whatyousay: I am apparently now you and you are now I.
Legally, you can't be discriminated against by the federal government (see my previous post) for not providing a referral.

HOWEVER, from my googling antics it appears various medical societies (those that provide board certification) can dictate your "rights and responsibilities." For example, it appears as ACOG (OBGYN) may require you to refer and there is also a potential to lose board cert as an anesthesiologist for assisting with capital punishment.
 
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A valid argument is the life interest of the fetus. We may disagree about whether or not that right is legitimate, but your argument that it isn't is no better than my argument that it is.

So, do you fund adoption agencies? Foster homes? Help the system help out these vivi? No? So what? Let a few live and get adopted and truly live life as intended? And let the rest grow up feral in the system?
Yah... right... you aren't asking the important question of what quality of life these kids will have? We are all privileged in someways... have you ever wondered what it would be like... to have no privilege at all?

Or

What about the women's life? She can have more kids later in life. However by having a child she's screwing her chances to increase her status in life or other things... Or actually reach a cycle of poverty which results in more children being born or even drug abuse?
 
I suppose this is where we will have to simply agree to disagree, as, though I would not say you should be legally obligated to perform an abortion in such situations, I would consider a negative impact on emotional health and the physical symptoms that it can result in (ie, hypertension) being in harm's way and, by your own previous statements, something that would warrant an abortion. I respect that you do not see it that way.

I see your point, however at some point unhealthy things no longer significantly impact the overall health of an individual. I would consider nine months of elevated blood pressure and "distress" as falling in this category. Frankly I think any physician that has an overweight patient come in and doesn't provide weight loss education is more at fault than a physician that doesn't provide an abortion to a woman experiencing hypertension due to anxiety about the pregnancy. The former has obvious and definite negative outcomes. The latter might, but likely not - at least not enough to end the life of a fetus in my view.
 
So, do you fund adoption agencies? Foster homes? Help the system help out these vivi? No? So what? Let a few live and get adopted and truly live life as intended? And let the rest grow up feral in the system?
Yah... right... you aren't asking the important question of what quality of life these kids will have? We are all privileged in someways... have you ever wondered what it would be... to have no privilege at all?
Yes, we should fund adoption agencies, and foster homes. As a person who has been through the system it needs the help. People who are in the position should consider becoming foster parents. I really think I will do that when I am older.
 
So, do you fund adoption agencies? Foster homes? Help the system help out these vivi? No? So what? Let a few live and get adopted and truly live life as intended? And let the rest grow up feral in the system?
Yah... right... you aren't asking the important question of what quality of life these kids will have? We are all privileged in someways... have you ever wondered what it would be like... to have no privilege at all?

I'm not asking that question because it's unanswerable. You would have to be able to know how the life of the fetus was going to end up if you're going to make that argument, and as far as I know we don't have that capability.

Even then you're getting into the more existential question of whether non-existence is better than a suffering existence. I don't pretend to have the answer to that question. Do you?
 
Yes, we should fund adoption agencies, and foster homes. As a person who has been through the system it needs the help. People who are in the position should consider becoming foster parents. I really think I will do that when I am older.

The foster home system is in shambles... I know a few who have been through it, though they were adopted/ taken in, but the reality is that those who aren't have no chance of improving their lives.
 
A valid argument is the life interest of the fetus. We may disagree about whether or not that right is legitimate, but your argument that it isn't is no better than my argument that it is.

Except forcing a victim to do something they do not want to do, like have a child from a raping lunatic, is taking away their right of freedom. I don't see how your argument is valid at all. There is nothing you could ever say that justifies that view, EVER. As a physician, you are NOT supposed to project your views on your patients, and even if you do disagree with their beliefs, you are there serve them the best you can and be logical and unbiased. Have you considered the problem of money? what if she's only 15 yo? you'd prob say "parents or wellfare," right? well not everyone has parents with money, and I'm preety sure people are sick of paying for wellfare as it is (unless you've never worked a day in your life). do you think she'll be able to stay in school? nope. College? forget it. So I guess her life should just be ruined forever huh. Its not like she hasn't already been through enough, right?
 
I'm not asking that question because it's unanswerable. You would have to be able to know how the life of the fetus was going to end up if you're going to make that argument, and as far as I know we don't have that capability.

Even then you're getting into the more existential question of whether non-existence is better than a suffering existence. I don't pretend to have the answer to that question. Do you?

We do know... we have statistics...
And true this is picking at the very matter of destiny and etc. and I don't pretend to have an answer either, my job is to simply make you question your beliefs and then it's your deal, whether to become more moderate and considerate, or to adhere to moral absolutes.
<---- Devil's Advocate 😉
 
Except forcing a victim to do something they do not want to do, like have a child from a raping lunatic, is taking away their right of freedom. I don't see how your argument is valid at all. There is nothing you could ever say that justifies that view, EVER. As a physician, you are NOT supposed to project your views on your patients, and even if you do disagree with their beliefs, you are there serve them the best you can and be logical and unbiased. Have you considered the problem of money? what if she's only 15 yo? you'd prob say "parents or wellfare," right? well not everyone has parents with money, and I'm preety sure people are sick of paying for wellfare as it is (unless you've never worked a day in your life). do you think she'll be able to stay in school? nope. College? forget it. So I guess her life should just be ruined forever huh. Its not like she hasn't already been through enough, right?

With respect to the bolded (and as has been discussed many times, but you clearly didn't read the beginning of the thread), does my refusal to perform an abortion or offer a referral make it impossible for the woman to get an abortion? When did I suddenly become the only abortion provider in the universe that must single-handedly carry this burden?

With respect to the rest of the post, see above.
 
You know what bothers me... hypocrisy.

If asked in a medical school interview... What is your stance on abortion?

I guarantee you 99.9% of people in here would rhyme off the following...

"Regardless of my opinion, it would be my job as a physician to educate my patient and show them their options without insetrting my biases."


But then again, in medical school interviews, everyone wants to do primary care too right?
 
Figured I would chime in here.

Personally, I am pro-life. However, I understand, being that I obviously want to be a physician, that my patients shouldn't be subjected to my moral beliefs. Being that I am the source for the "treatment" that the patient seeks, it is my responsibility to help the patient. However, this doesn't mean that I would be professionally obligated to do the abortion myself. I do believe though that I have a professional and possibly legal responsibility to refer the patient to somebody who can deliver the care they desire. I don't believe that I have compromised on my moral beliefs and, at the same time, the patient can make an informed decision and seek the care she wants from somebody who will do it. Just my .02
 
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We do know... we have statistics...
And true this is picking at the very matter of destiny and etc. and I don't pretend to have an answer either, my job is to simply make you question your beliefs and as such logically realize that moral absolutes are poo.

At what point does abortion become reasonable - when 20% of unwanted babies have a "terrible" (whatever that means - I'd like to see the literature definition) life? 30%? 50%? 90?% Your argument is founded on very shaky emotional grounds.

I wasn't asserting a moral absolute, was I? I know that my views on the beginning on life aren't absolute. If I believed they were and were so bigoted I would advocate for state-supported bans on abortion.
 
Read this and I agree:

Question for you though: Were abortion banned today, what would happen to all the unwanted children? A statistic in 1996 put the yearly number of abortions at around 1.4 million (insanely high number!). A study from 1994-2...000 showed that about 58% of women obtaining abortions lived below or just above the poverty line (about $10,000 a year for a single mother, $20,000 for a family of four). The cost of raising a child from 0-18 these days is about $225,000 (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...2010-may-cost-226-920-to-raise-usda-says.html). These children would quite literally be living in abject poverty, likely starving based on our current state even without the extra 1.4 million children a year http://abcnews.go.com/Health/US/hunger-children-america-slow-steady-starvation/story?id=14328390.

True, some of those impoverished do recieve government aid to help feed their children but the Republican-led House of Representatives is currently trying to slash the welfare budget and draw funds away from the U.S. foster care system as well as orphanages. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/25/AR2005102501485.html

One option is surely to adopt these children out of pitiful living conditions, abuse, and starvation but let's take a look at how many families are waiting to adopt. I'm having trouble finding an accurate link on that statistic, but another pro-life friend of mine put the number somewhere around 40,000 families. This is odd because recent studies have shown that we have about 120,000 children waiting to be adopted in America. The most common problem with these children, as viewed by the prospecive adoptive parents, is that they are too old or they are minorities.

We're left with the math that 58% of 1.4 million kids, or just over 812,000 children a year would need either A) Massive government assistance for the parents in a time when the number of people on government assistance is 4 times the number of unemployed (they can't just "get jobs" because there aren't nearly enough) or B) A massive tax increase to expand out foster care and orphanage system by about 677% in the first year alone (add 800,000 unwanted children a year, the budget balloons).

The C) option that I'd rather not think about is the most likely during times of economic hardship and record American debt. When politicians are railing against "entitlements" and benefits for the poorest of the poor. Leaving those extra 800,000 children (a year) to live short lives, starve, and die at the feet of an apathetic America that is pro-life up until the point that the child is born.

I'd truly like to see the percieved need for abortion to go away, I just can't see a scenario in which that would ever happen. I'm genuinely interested in this issue and would like to hear what you think about this when considering the unwanted and impoverished children and not the religious angle.


Summary: The math doesn't work out. Basically banning abortion means putting almost a million unwanted children on the street or into government hands a year and we can't afford it. The government in this scenario is "pro-life" until birth. After that, these kids are ****ed.
 
With respect to the bolded (and as has been discussed many times, but you clearly didn't read the beginning of the thread), does my refusal to perform an abortion or offer a referral make it impossible for the woman to get an abortion? When did I suddenly become the only abortion provider in the universe that must single-handedly carry this burden?

With respect to the rest of the post, see above.

Here's a question for you Nick. Would you treat a prisoner? Let's say a rapist. Or a pedophile? Or a Jehovah's witness? You mention that you aren't morally obligated but when are you obligated to treat or refer?
 
You know what bothers me... hypocrisy.

If asked in a medical school interview... What is your stance on abortion?

I guarantee you 99.9% of people in here would rhyme off the following...

"Regardless of my opinion, it would be my job as a physician to educate my patient and show them their options without insetrting my biases."


But then again, in medical school interviews, everyone wants to do primary care too right?

:laugh:BWAUHAHAHA! :laugh: There goes my personal statement.
 
You know what bothers me... hypocrisy.

If asked in a medical school interview... What is your stance on abortion?

I guarantee you 99.9% of people in here would rhyme off the following...

"Regardless of my opinion, it would be my job as a physician to educate my patient and show them their options without insetrting my biases."


But then again, in medical school interviews, everyone wants to do primary care too right?

Fortunately interviewers aren't that strongly on the offensive. However I assure you that if such a question were to come up in residency interviews I would answer exactly as I would here. If that means that a program doesn't want me, then frankly I don't want to be there.
 
I'll pre-apologize if this is a silly question...

Using this referral situation brought up for NickNaylor, is there a lil black book of abortion performing physicians that you can just grab? Do doctors hand out cards at meetings saying "Hey, have a patient that needs an abortion, have her call me!" Since this subject obviously brings up so much commotion in the public setting, how would we know who to refer the patient to, if we were so inclined?
 
Here's a question for you Nick. Would you treat a prisoner? Let's say a rapist. Or a pedophile? Or a Jehovah's witness? You mention that you aren't morally obligated but when are you obligated to treat or refer?

I'm obligated to treat a patient when not providing treatment would place the patient in harm's way. Isn't that how EMTALA more or less works? However, if the patient refuses care (e.g., as a Jehovah's Witness would in the case of blood transfusions), then that's their choice.
 
Read this and I agree:

Question for you though: Were abortion banned today, what would happen to all the unwanted children? A statistic in 1996 put the yearly number of abortions at around 1.4 million (insanely high number!). A study from 1994-2...000 showed that about 58% of women obtaining abortions lived below or just above the poverty line (about $10,000 a year for a single mother, $20,000 for a family of four). The cost of raising a child from 0-18 these days is about $225,000 (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...2010-may-cost-226-920-to-raise-usda-says.html). These children would quite literally be living in abject poverty, likely starving based on our current state even without the extra 1.4 million children a year http://abcnews.go.com/Health/US/hunger-children-america-slow-steady-starvation/story?id=14328390.

True, some of those impoverished do recieve government aid to help feed their children but the Republican-led House of Representatives is currently trying to slash the welfare budget and draw funds away from the U.S. foster care system as well as orphanages. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/25/AR2005102501485.html

One option is surely to adopt these children out of pitiful living conditions, abuse, and starvation but let's take a look at how many families are waiting to adopt. I'm having trouble finding an accurate link on that statistic, but another pro-life friend of mine put the number somewhere around 40,000 families. This is odd because recent studies have shown that we have about 120,000 children waiting to be adopted in America. The most common problem with these children, as viewed by the prospecive adoptive parents, is that they are too old or they are minorities.

We're left with the math that 58% of 1.4 million kids, or just over 812,000 children a year would need either A) Massive government assistance for the parents in a time when the number of people on government assistance is 4 times the number of unemployed (they can't just "get jobs" because there aren't nearly enough) or B) A massive tax increase to expand out foster care and orphanage system by about 677% in the first year alone (add 800,000 unwanted children a year, the budget balloons).

The C) option that I'd rather not think about is the most likely during times of economic hardship and record American debt. When politicians are railing against "entitlements" and benefits for the poorest of the poor. Leaving those extra 800,000 children (a year) to live short lives, starve, and die at the feet of an apathetic America that is pro-life up until the point that the child is born.

I'd truly like to see the percieved need for abortion to go away, I just can't see a scenario in which that would ever happen. I'm genuinely interested in this issue and would like to hear what you think about this when considering the unwanted and impoverished children and not the religious angle.


Summary: The math doesn't work out. Basically banning abortion means putting almost a million unwanted children on the street or into government hands a year and we can't afford it. The government in this scenario is "pro-life" until birth. After that, these kids are ****ed.

That's why I'm pro-choice. Everyone is pro-life and then when they kid is born they all look the other way as the kid starves.
 
Here's a question for you Nick. Would you treat a prisoner? Let's say a rapist. Or a pedophile? Or a Jehovah's witness? You mention that you aren't morally obligated but when are you obligated to treat or refer?
from what I'm getting from his posts are that he would treat them if they were actually in need of medical aid
 
I know... they draw me in like a moth to a flame and they often wind up pissing me off.
Seriously.

I wonder how many of the people in this thread know that 50% of US pregnancies are unplanned.

I wonder how many of these future physicians know how badly physicians who perform abortions (for ANY reason...including pregnancy that is life threatening, or will result in either no-life or a short lived horrible life) are treated in medical society as well as in "polite" society.

I also wonder why I am reading this thread when I should be studying🙄
 
I'm obligated to treat a patient when not providing treatment would place the patient in harm's way. However, if the patient refuses care (e.g., as a Jehovah's Witness would in the case of blood transfusions), then that's their choice. Isn't that how EMTALA more or less works?

Ok person has a tumor. Won't kill them immediately but it still is a serious concern.
 
This is just blatantly false.

Ok not everyone but the majority of America won't help or always says "Someone else will take care of it."
I was homeless for damn near my entire childhood. I have eaten food that was recycled for days at homeless shelters, hell I have went weeks were the only food I would have eaten would be school lunch. So yea, most people cover their eyes and look the other way.
 
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2m3sork.jpg
 
This is just blatantly false.

He exaggerates the starving part, but they on average aren't going to get as many privileges as a child with a family. Which is correlated with lower IQ, lower status in life, finishing education at lower levels, etc.

Well this is my last post on here.... I don't feel like arguing about abortion. My opinion is... if it can be avoided, great, and in an ideal world it wouldn't exist or be necessary. But we don't live in that world.
 
seriously.

I wonder how many of the people in this thread know that 50% of us pregnancies are unplanned.

I wonder how many of these future physicians know how badly physicians who perform abortions (for any reason...including pregnancy that is life threatening, or will result in either no-life or a short lived horrible life) are treated in medical society as well as in "polite" society.

i also wonder why i am reading this thread when i should be studying🙄
truth.
 
Seriously.

I wonder how many of the people in this thread know that 50% of US pregnancies are unplanned.

I wonder how many of these future physicians know how badly physicians who perform abortions (for ANY reason...including pregnancy that is life threatening, or will result in either no-life or a short lived horrible life) are treated in medical society as well as in "polite" society.

I also wonder why I am reading this thread when I should be studying🙄

I wonder how many people in this thread have actually had to support themselves and struggled in life, yet alone have a child to take care of. I also wonder how many people in this thread have been raped and impregnated? Have you? Everybody wants to be a saint until their number is up. And just how are these physicians treated? Please enlighten me.
 
I wonder how many people in this thread have actually had to support themselves and struggled in life, yet alone have a child to take care of. I also wonder how many people in this thread have been raped and impregnated? Have you? Everybody wants to be a saint until their number is up. And just how are these physicians treated? Please enlighten me.
Death threats
 
I wonder how many people in this thread have actually had to support themselves and struggled in life, yet alone have a child to take care of. I also wonder how many people in this thread have been raped and impregnated? Have you? Everybody wants to be a saint until their number is up. And just how are these physicians treated? Please enlighten me.

You ever played "Not it" It's a game where the last person to say not it loses. That's what all these pro-lifers are playing. And they refuse to be the one that has to take care of some poor child that someone didn't want.
 
I support women's reproductive freedoms and believe that any laws restricting those freedoms are not only harmful to women, but to us as physicians.
 
I wonder how many people in this thread have actually had to support themselves and struggled in life, yet alone have a child to take care of. I also wonder how many people in this thread have been raped and impregnated? Have you? Everybody wants to be a saint until their number is up. And just how are these physicians treated? Please enlighten me.

Death threats
Yup.

And, you know.... actual death.

And lack of support from staff at hospitals when needed....even though these are the same people referring to them when they feel like an abortion is "necessary".
 
I wonder how many of these future physicians know how badly physicians who perform abortions (for ANY reason...including pregnancy that is life threatening, or will result in either no-life or a short lived horrible life) are treated in medical society as well as in "polite" society.

Death threats

Yup.

And, you know.... actual death.

And lack of support from staff at hospitals when needed....even though these are the same people referring to them when they feel like an abortion is "necessary".
See, this stuff is what really gets me. Add a strong emotional element with some aspect of the practice of safe, responsible medicine and suddenly professionalism goes out the window.
 
Death threats from Pro lifers Huh. That makes sense. This proves my point of ****ing Dumb and hypocritical religious people and pro lifers are.

Yup.

And, you know.... actual death.

And lack of support from staff at hospitals when needed....even though these are the same people referring to them when they feel like an abortion is "necessary".

For those of us who are actually level headed, and have some logical thought processes going on... this is a very VERY interesting read.


A little excerpt for those of you who won't read it... and for those narrow minded pro-lifers who refuse to give a woman her reproductive rights and freedoms...

Twenty minutes later, the abortionist enters. He's a tall man in green surgical scrubs, remarkably vigorous at seventy, emphatic in speech and impatient in manner. He has a long face and no lips, which gives him a severe look. He apologizes for having very little time. This is the day he sees patients for the first of three visits, giving them the seaweed laminaria, which slowly dilates the cervix, and his normal caseload has been doubled by Dr. Tiller's patients &#8212; including two with catastrophic fetal abnormalities and a fifteen-year-old who was raped, all in the second trimester, all traumatized by the assassin who calls himself pro-life, a phrase he cannot utter without air quotes and contempt. They hate freedom, he says. He says it again. He warns you not to use anyone's name or you will put them at risk.

Read more: http://www.esquire.com/features/abortion-doctor-warren-hern-0909#ixzz1fLhIEgR4

http://www.esquire.com/features/abortion-doctor-warren-hern-0909
 
For those of us who are actually level headed, and have some logical thought processes going on... this is a very VERY interesting read.


A little excerpt for those of you who won't read it... and for those narrow minded pro-lifers who refuse to give a woman her reproductive rights and freedoms...

Twenty minutes later, the abortionist enters. He's a tall man in green surgical scrubs, remarkably vigorous at seventy, emphatic in speech and impatient in manner. He has a long face and no lips, which gives him a severe look. He apologizes for having very little time. This is the day he sees patients for the first of three visits, giving them the seaweed laminaria, which slowly dilates the cervix, and his normal caseload has been doubled by Dr. Tiller's patients — including two with catastrophic fetal abnormalities and a fifteen-year-old who was raped, all in the second trimester, all traumatized by the assassin who calls himself pro-life, a phrase he cannot utter without air quotes and contempt. They hate freedom, he says. He says it again. He warns you not to use anyone's name or you will put them at risk.

Read more: http://www.esquire.com/features/abortion-doctor-warren-hern-0909#ixzz1fLhIEgR4

http://www.esquire.com/features/abortion-doctor-warren-hern-0909
I got to talk to Dr. Hern recently, actually. If you want to consider yourself well read and well versed on the subject of abortion, no matter what side you stand on....I would suggest you shoot that man an email. Nothing will educate you more. He is an amazing person.
 
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I got to talk to Dr. Hern recently, actually. If you want to consider yourself well read and well versed on the subject of abortion, no matter what side you stand on....I would suggest you shoot that man an email. Nothing will educate you more. He is an amazing person.

Cougs... are you serious? Fill me in about this on our epic PM fest.
 
Twenty minutes later, the abortionist enters. He's a tall man in green surgical scrubs, remarkably vigorous at seventy, emphatic in speech and impatient in manner. He has a long face and no lips, which gives him a severe look. He apologizes for having very little time. This is the day he sees patients for the first of three visits, giving them the seaweed laminaria, which slowly dilates the cervix, and his normal caseload has been doubled by Dr. Tiller's patients — including two with catastrophic fetal abnormalities and a fifteen-year-old who was raped, all in the second trimester, all traumatized by the assassin who calls himself pro-life, a phrase he cannot utter without air quotes and contempt. They hate freedom, he says. He says it again. He warns you not to use anyone's name or you will put them at risk.
You can feel the weight of these words through the screen.
 
For those of us who are actually level headed, and have some logical thought processes going on... this is a very VERY interesting read.


A little excerpt for those of you who won't read it... and for those narrow minded pro-lifers who refuse to give a woman her reproductive rights and freedoms...

Twenty minutes later, the abortionist enters. He's a tall man in green surgical scrubs, remarkably vigorous at seventy, emphatic in speech and impatient in manner. He has a long face and no lips, which gives him a severe look. He apologizes for having very little time. This is the day he sees patients for the first of three visits, giving them the seaweed laminaria, which slowly dilates the cervix, and his normal caseload has been doubled by Dr. Tiller's patients &#8212; including two with catastrophic fetal abnormalities and a fifteen-year-old who was raped, all in the second trimester, all traumatized by the assassin who calls himself pro-life, a phrase he cannot utter without air quotes and contempt. They hate freedom,he says. He says it again. He warns you not to use anyone's name or you will put them at risk.

Read more: http://www.esquire.com/features/abortion-doctor-warren-hern-0909#ixzz1fLhIEgR4

http://www.esquire.com/features/abortion-doctor-warren-hern-0909

👍
 
Also, here is a great read about why arguing about issues like this does nothing, and why ad-hominem is literally more effective than logic.

http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/

Basically, humans are a joke. Hurry up Watson...

"The last time you got into, or sat on the sidelines of, an argument online with someone who thought they knew all there was to know about health care reform, gun control, gay marriage, climate change, sex education, the drug war, Joss Whedon or whether or not 0.9999 repeated to infinity was equal to one &#8211; how did it go?

Did you teach the other party a valuable lesson? Did they thank you for edifying them on the intricacies of the issue after cursing their heretofore ignorance, doffing their virtual hat as they parted from the keyboard a better person?

No, probably not. Most online battles follow a similar pattern, each side launching attacks and pulling evidence from deep inside the web to back up their positions until, out of frustration, one party resorts to an all-out ad hominem nuclear strike. If you are lucky, the comment thread will get derailed in time for you to keep your dignity, or a neighboring commenter will help initiate a text-based dogpile on your opponent.

What should be evident from the studies on the backfire effect is you can never win an argument online. When you start to pull out facts and figures, hyperlinks and quotes, you are actually making the opponent feel as though they are even more sure of their position than before you started the debate. As they match your fervor, the same thing happens in your skull. The backfire effect pushes both of you deeper into your original beliefs."