SLU psychiatry unstable?

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throwaway2099

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Can someone here comment on the status of SLU psychiatry? I've heard through the grapevine that they are losing their program director and "half" of their faculty (apparently related to the SSM-SLU health merger). Is this reliable ? How is this affecting the quality of residency education, and does anyone have insight on why this is happening? From looking at their faculty webpage (Psychiatry and Behavioral Neuroscience Faculty), it looks like a small program with only 13-15ish attendings.

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I used to work at SLU and left because, well frankly, the ship was sinking, there were too many holes in the ship, and there were too many people in the university that weren't allowing the holes to be plugged in.

The turn-over rate for an average psychiatrist there was about 2 years (or at least that's what several people in the department were saying). This is well worse than the industry-standard.

I had nothing going for me. The pay was terrible. Many universities will at least give an outstanding retirement package such as 25 years you get half your salary the rest of your life, but SLU didn't. So the pay was terrible and it didn't include the incredible retirement package at many institutions. I was bringing in a large amount of money, over twice what some other doctors were bringing in, but they wouldn't pay me anymore than the standard salary, and this was despite that I was working more, triple boarded (although one of those board certifications IMHO is BS, but still that's 2 certifications), and I was rated within the top 1% of teaching doctors in the institution.

There were a whole slew (no pun intended) of problems within the institution that weren't being fixed. With a few exceptions I didn't feel I was in a good environment. Security took 30 minutes to show up to the unit if patients became violent. Nurses would go into a room, lock the door, while the patients punched each other.

While I love teaching even that didn't keep me going. A big morale killer for me was several residents, at least while I was there, were pretty much saying they came to SLU to get their green cards, they really wanted to be a (insert Internal medicine, anesthesiologist, surgeon, etc) but no other program took them, and not because they loved psychiatry. When I asked several residents to do a research project with me all of them turned it down with inappropriate responses. E.g. "I'm not a scientist why do I want to do research?" Me-"Cause as a physician you are a scientist or at the very least used a science-based field to practice." Some barely spoke English to a degree where it was not acceptable but if I brought it up I was given dirty looks as if I was anti-immigrant. The more I brought it up, the less people seemed to care. The fact that no one could understand some of the residents didn't seem to be an issue despite that I said one day you're going to have a code and that resident won't be understood....

Another huge morale killer was one meeting we were told of a physician who was offered a position, turned it down and took an almost identical position at Washington U for $50K less per year. I was like WTF? Guy's willing to make that much less money and still not join?

I attempted to fix some of those problems and my immediate superior would block me on every move. When I brought it to the chair of the department he agreed with me, and allowed me to move forward and even expressed shock at the problem (e.g. security taking 30 minutes to show up to the inpatient unit). The problem being that I could tell the chair was going to get sick of this place months to years down the road, and that immediate superior was planning on staying there long-term and would always outrank me and cut me off. I had no theory that could fit why this guy would do these things other than that he wanted the department to do poorly hoping it'd make the chair want to leave sooner so he could get up the ladder faster.

The final nail in the coffin was when the chair allowed me to implement my idea to fix the security issue (security would have ID cards that opened the doors instead of their ring of over 50 keys and not know which one worked, also the time response would be reported to security) the same idea my immediate superior kept blocking, the same bozo then wrote a department-wide e-mail saying how it was his idea all along and that he implemented it. Literally that's when I said to myself "eff this place."

This occurred about 7 years ago, so those issues I'm sure aren't the same issues now.

After I left Washington U offered me a job, and I considered it, but I had enough colleagues who were Washington U graduates talk me out of it.
 
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Very sad. Do you have any chance other insight into the residency program there? I would’ve thought it would be a solid mid tier psych residency
I used to work at SLU and left because, well frankly, the ship was sinking, there were too many holes in the ship, and there were too many people in the university that weren't allowing the holes to be plugged in.

The turn-over rate for an average psychiatrist there was about 2 years (or at least that's what several people in the department were saying). This is well worse than the industry-standard.

I had nothing going for me. The pay was terrible. Many universities will at least give an outstanding retirement package such as 25 years you get half your salary the rest of your life, but SLU didn't. So the pay was terrible and it didn't include the incredible retirement package at many institutions. I was bringing in a large amount of money, over twice what some other doctors were bringing in, but they wouldn't pay me anymore than the standard salary, and this was despite that I was working more, triple boarded (although one of those board certifications IMHO is BS, but still that's 2 certifications), and I was rated within the top 1% of teaching doctors in the institution.

There were a whole slew (no pun intended) of problems within the institution that weren't being fixed. With a few exceptions I didn't feel I was in a good environment. Security took 30 minutes to show up to the unit if patients became violent. Nurses would go into a room, lock the door, while the patients punched each other.

While I love teaching even that didn't keep me going. A big morale killer for me was several residents, at least while I was there, were pretty much saying they came to SLU to get their green cards, they really wanted to be a (insert Internal medicine, anesthesiologist, surgeon, etc) but no other program took them, and not because they loved psychiatry. When I asked several residents to do a research project with me all of them turned it down with inappropriate responses. E.g. "I'm not a scientist why do I want to do research?" Me-"Cause as a physician you are a scientist or at the very least used a science-based field to practice." Some barely spoke English to a degree where it was not acceptable but if I brought it up I was given dirty looks as if I was anti-immigrant.

Another huge morale killer was one meeting we were told of a physician who was offered a position, turned it down and took an almost identical position at Washington U for $50K less per year. I was like WTF? Guy's willing to make that much less money and still not join?

I attempted to fix some of those problems and my immediate superior would block me on every move. When I brought it to the chair of the department he agreed with me, and allowed me to move forward and even expressed shock at the problem (e.g. security taking 30 minutes to show up to the inpatient unit). The problem being that I could tell the chair was going to get sick of this place months to years down the road, and that immediate superior was planning on staying there long-term and would always outrank me and cut me off. I had no theory that could fit why this guy would do these things other than that he wanted the department to do poorly hoping it'd make the chair want to leave sooner so he could get up the ladder faster.

The final nail in the coffin was when the chair allowed me to implement my idea to fix the security issue (security would have ID cards that opened the doors instead of their ring of over 50 keys and not know which one worked, also the time response would be reported to security) the same idea my immediate superior kept blocking, the same bozo then wrote a department-wide e-mail saying how it was his idea all along and that he implemented it. Literally that's when I said to myself "eff this place."

This occurred about 7 years ago, so those issues I'm sure aren't the same issues now, but I can tell you several of the same problems that prevented the institution from improving are likely still there because they were institution-wide and not just the department.

After I left Washington U offered me a job, and I considered it, but I had enough colleagues who were Washington U graduates talk me out of it.
 
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Thank you for the replies. This is helpful. Psychiatry in the midwest is a small world so people are a bit cagey about answering questions about this. I know the current program director was highly regarded back when she was at Washington University and many residents both at Wash U and SLU have spoken very positively of her. Which is why the fact that she is leaving (if this is indeed true) is really sad.
 
I know who you speak of and she is excellent. Right around the time I was leaving she joined. Had I been surrounded by other a majority of doctors like her I might've stayed.
 
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The strengths of the program are there are some very solid and excellent doctors in the program. E.g. one of them was an AAPL president, another the editor of a forensic journal, another one of the best geriatric psychiatrists in the country and a hell of a nice guy and a truly good person. If you want to do research you're in company of some heavyweight great people in the field. (Which I also found ironic. So many residents IMHO were subpar and it showed because they didn't want to exploit that opportunity).

That one doctor that was pretty much the main reason why I left also ended up leaving although years after I left. Given the financial bonuses of leaving and I would've had to tolerate that guy another 5 years it was definitely the right thing to leave.

I have no idea what is going on now. Remember I left years ago. I didn't detail the situation before as to why I left as much as I do now because I wanted a large time-gap to elapse before I wrote more openly about such things. There were also more problems at SLU that were institution-wide that I'm not mentioning, but since it happened years ago I don't know if those same things are going on now. E.g. while I was there there was a policy making it extremely difficult to fire even inept employees. Several very important and needed things weren't getting done and the department couldn't terminate the people not doing their jobs and replace them with better people. I.E. people who did do their jobs well after months of tolerating mediocrity or incompetency became sick of it and left. This issue was university wide. So, for example there was only 4 showers in the men's locker-room in the gym. Two showers broke. They weren't fixed for about 9 months. Seriously. A gym machine breaks-it's broken 5 months instead of being fixed the same day. Or in the department the receptionists who worked there for years didn't know how to put someone into the outpatient clinic schedule, and sat there while watching Price is Right on a portable TV and doing little else...despite that my entire outpatient clinic day is open and people are begging to be put in.


I did hear of the SSM merger but that was supposed to happen years ago so why this is an issue right now, and I have heard this outside of the forum, I don't know.
 
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Do you have any chance other insight into the residency program there? I
The "other" institution is a top-research facility. The problem being that I have reason to believe the clinical exposure is lacking. Let me give you an example. The "other" place has TMS. You refer someone for TMS they never get scheduled for it cause their TMS clinic never really took off. They're doing great TMS research. Their TMS treatments to the community are extremely lacking.

So for training this could translate to you not running your office as well, without efficiency, and without the "real world" knowledge of how something operates.

Something I've noticed about both institutions is both had promotion tracks where you only got to higher ranks if you published. In institutions like this the physicians don't have strong incentive to say get the clinic up and running more efficiently.

As I mentioned above, the clinic at my former place of employment had staff members who didn't know how to put a new patient into the clinic schedule despite that their job was to schedule, had worked there for years, and no one was making her do her job. Add to that a doctor that doesn't make more money if he sees more patients, and if his schedule is completely empty he makes just as much money. They don't teach this in psychiatry but I know this from my psychology training and it's not rocket-science. Consult/Liaison or Industrial Psychology-an institution needs to have the right incentives in place to get things moving along on their own. Add to this if the employee wasn't doing her job no one's going to fire her. Then meeting after meeting we keep hearing how the department is in the red, and yet we couldn't get rid of people not doing their job, people doing their job weren't paid more, there were incentives only to publish more but not getting your schedules full. (All the while I'm bringing in way more money than most other doctors, I'm working harder, and I'm getting paid just as much as the other people, and every time I tried to fix the situation the guy immediately above me keeps cutting me off. I had enough of it).

If people want to put research on a pedestal, and I completely agree it should be on one, you shouldn't do so at the cost of weakening other necessary foundations of medicine. I strongly endorse the research institution if you want to go into research. Otherwise I'm neutral.
 
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Commenting here to say SLU is definitely not unstable due to anything specific to the psychiatry department or its residency program. The exodus is 100% related to unfavorable terms in the new contracts related to the SSM buyout across departments.

….Or so say the rumors…
 
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This definitely does not sound good. Especially since unsafe psychiatry work conditions in particular are being brought up in this article. Is there anyone who’s currently at SLU who can comment? I’m really concerned about this as the residency application season approaches
 
I'm always interested in these articles that blame "the management." We never seem to get an explanation from "the management" about why things are done the way they area. I mean these are non-profit entities. Is reimbursement down?
 
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