Small Animal Vets

[CarpeDiem89]

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Hey everyone! I have been a lurker for a long time

My dream is to be a mixed practice veterinarian or just equine. But lets face it, with all the debt I am already in plus vet school debt I am going to be in over 150,000 to 200,000 dollars in debt.

If you look at the stats small animal vets make the most money and I do not plan on getting married so my salary will be the only one that I have.

I was researching some small animal vets and getting a feel for the job market when banfield came up. It is a large corporate vet operation with hundreds of hospitals all over the country. The good thing about getting involved with this company from what I can see is that I can pretty much move to any state and I will have a competitive salary. They also give students 10,000 dollars to sign up with them and do some externships and other jobs in the summer.

Does any one know of any downsides of becoming part of a large company like this? Does anyone know any vets that are part of something like this or any students who have shadowed/dealt with them?

 

[TomTheK9Fixr]

Hey everyone! I have been a lurker for a long time and I was accepted to veterinary school this cycle.

My dream is to be a mixed practice veterinarian or just equine. But lets face it, with all the debt I am already in plus vet school debt I am going to be in over 150,000 to 200,000 dollars in debt.

If you look at the stats small animal vets make the most money and I do not plan on getting married so my salary will be the only one that I have.

I was researching some small animal vets and getting a feel for the job market when banfield came up. It is a large corporate vet operation with hundreds of hospitals all over the country. The good thing about getting involved with this company from what I can see is that I can pretty much move to any state and I will have a competitive salary. They also give students 10,000 dollars to sign up with them and do some externships and other jobs in the summer.

Does any one know of any downsides of becoming part of a large company like this? Does anyone know any vets that are part of something like this or any students who have shadowed/dealt with them?

Yes there are lots of downsides. In particular, your clinical decisions will involve company guidelines in addition to all of the other typical variables (e.g., client financial constraints, prognosis, etc). This may seem trivial on the surface, but trust me, it's a huge factor.

 

[Halebug]

It is kinda weird that this came up because I just went to a meeting with my pre-vet club and it was pretty much just a meeting with Veterinarians and students could ask questions and they just kind of gave us their input and this was a topic that was brought up. Quite a few people were really against it. There were vets that had worked for companies like that present who said whatever you do...do NOT work for them. One vet in particular said the problem is that they really "dumb down" vets because none of the decisions are yours...that you essentially type symptoms into a computer and it tells you what route to take. Mind you I personally have no experience with this...I am just telling you what they told us! I mean positives were brought up but most of them said they did not outweigh the negatives.

 

[CurrySpice]

I know several students on SDN have talked about classmates taking advantage of Banfield's program. I would recommend trying their summer program and seeing how you like the corporate atmosphere. They get a lot of flak for the guidelines, but I'm sure it depends on the individual clinic.

 

[shortnsweet]

I am working for Banfield right now as a spring break modified externship, and love it. I intend on coming back in the summer. They are fantastic with vet students and new vets. Some hospitals are obviously better than others, but you will learn so much no matter where you go. Take advantage of their summer program at least, and see for yourself--don't judge them based on hearsay. Focus on the medicine, and take everything else with a grain of salt. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Edit---And I am just like you, OP---I've always want to be just equine,but thought I should test out the Sm Animal practice. Not so much for the "better pay" aspect, but I wanted to see what working in a sm animal clinic was really like--keep my options open if you will.

 

[CarpeDiem89]

Yes there are lots of downsides. In particular, your clinical decisions will involve company guidelines in addition to all of the other typical variables (e.g., client financial constraints, prognosis, etc). This may seem trivial on the surface, but trust me, it's a huge factor.

I kinda know about this but can you tell me more? Say if I diagnose a dog with heartworm disease- every vet usually goes through the same procedure because it is the best medicine and it works for the animal. It is just required that I do it this certain way for company guideline sake. This makes sense to me.

So say a dog comes in with unexplained seizures. What if I think, for example, that this dog is having seizures because it was poisoned (maybe its a young dog and there the owners are missing some chemical or something). Would I still have to go through the general procedure of "what to do if animal has a seizure" such as test if for diseases I know it does not have, or can I start the correct treatment for a dog who has been poisoned? If I type in seizures into a computer and it tells me what to do, do I have to follow exactly what it says?

 

[TomTheK9Fixr]

I kinda know about this but can you tell me more? Say if I diagnose a dog with heartworm disease- every vet usually goes through the same procedure because it is the best medicine and it works for the animal. It is just required that I do it this certain way for company guideline sake. This makes sense to me.

So say a dog comes in with unexplained seizures. What if I think, for example, that this dog is having seizures because it was poisoned (maybe its a young dog and there the owners are missing some chemical or something). Would I still have to go through the general procedure of "what to do if animal has a seizure" such as test if for diseases I know it does not have, or can I start the correct treatment for a dog who has been poisoned? If I type in seizures into a computer and it tells me what to do, do I have to follow exactly what it says?

I'll try my best with an example I heard from a vet that worked at Banfield for a few years.

A cat that was blocked was presented. The protocol for UO is a,b,c,d and so on, per Banfield guidelines. The owners had financial constraints and could not afford the proposed treatment. They could, however, afford a "bare bones" treatment that may yield a different prognosis but this "bares bones" was not allowed, even though the owners were informed of the consequences and altered prognosis vs. the by-the-book treatment plan. The owners took the pet to another clinic. Faxed paperwork indicated "bares bones" treatment was performed and cat released to owners.

This is just an example. Hopefully others with firsthand accounts can contribute.

 

[lunajett]

I've heard similar things to what Tom is saying - the coporate requirements take away alot of the flexibility you might otherwise have to work with clients who can't/won't afford the gold or silver plans. Yeah, we'd all like all our clients to always go for the gold standard, but in the real world that won't always be possible, and it is better to get the patient *some* treatment rather than have them walk out with an untreated patient. And it seems like there is a lot of pressure to "upsell", ie, push treatments/procedures that bring in a lot of money but maybe aren't really all that necessary.

Also, they don't just "give" students $10,000 to "sign up" with them. IF you can get a summer position, I believe you can get like $2500 per summer essentially banked with them, then if you hire on as a DVM after working 4 summers as a student you get that $10,000 as a bonus. But from what I've learned personally, it is not easy to get a summer job. I, and quite a few of my classmates at KSU, applied for this summer, and so far we've all been rejected. I know there may be limited spots depending on the market, etc., but it's definitely not like you can just plan on waltzing in and "signing up."

That all said, I have read very good things from other people on here who were able to get into the summer program. Great training and experience, which is why I was very interested even though I can't imagine working for Banfield as a DVM (my goal is shelter med anyway). This has been discussed a lot on here, try a search for Banfield.

 

[libster06]

It depends on the Banfield.... or [insert certain corporate vet here]. I am working for a Banfield this summer through the student job program and it seems to be a really good program. The specific Banfield I will be working for is a charter one, so they are not necessarily governed by all Banfield rules. The vet who owns it also owns a private practice in the town over so he is a legit vet and makes his own decisions... not someone who just "puts symptoms in a computer." FYI, they have 5 minute vet consult books that do the same thing (list symptoms and diagnoses), so whether a vet is using a book or a computer, chances are there are non-corporate employed vets who could use that same method. Also, the student job program teaches you things and allows you to be mentored by a veterinarian, separate from a tech job. They ask you what you want to learn and take tie to teach you things and discuss things with you.

I have also worked for VCA hospital over the summer between by sophomore and junior undergrad years and it was a GREAT experience. The vet I worked for there wrote my LOR and the whole experience left a great impression on me.

I wouldn't recommend listening to opinions from people who have no experience working with or being a client of a large corporation. Sure people can have bad experiences, and there are some places that aren't all that great... but then again there are just as many less-than-ideal private practices as well, that don't treat their vets very well either.

 

[HandD42]

I'll try my best with an example I heard from a vet that worked at Banfield for a few years.

A cat that was blocked was presented. The protocol for UO is a,b,c,d and so on, per Banfield guidelines. The owners had financial constraints and could not afford the proposed treatment. They could, however, afford a "bare bones" treatment that may yield a different prognosis but this "bares bones" was not allowed, even though the owners were informed of the consequences and altered prognosis vs. the by-the-book treatment plan. The owners took the pet to another clinic. Faxed paperwork indicated "bares bones" treatment was performed and cat released to owners.

This is just an example. Hopefully others with firsthand accounts can contribute.

I was lucky enough to get a summer student position at Banfield and am very excited to get in there and make my own decision about corporate practice.

The main gripe I have heard is the same as above. You cannot work with clients who cannot afford the gold standard treatment package by providing bare bones care or you will be fired. The clients only option is to seek treatment at another clinic or just go home untreated.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

Say if I diagnose a dog with heartworm disease- every vet usually goes through the same procedure because it is the best medicine and it works for the animal.

Nope. It might seem that way to you now, but it's just not the case. There is always more than one way to skin a cat, and as a vet you should be able to decide on which way works best for you, the owner, the patient, and the clinic; at the vet least you should be able to consider your options based on the case, not have your medical protocols dictated by a book (or computer) that doesn't know specifics about your patient or the owners. That's especially true when it comes to limited finances. With Banfield, it's often their way or the highway. Some vets are OK with that, others aren't.

That said, having your options limited by a corporate head office might not be as important to you as other things Banfield can offer you.....as you said, every job has positives and negatives. If you're really interested in their offer (and I don't know what it is), see if you can try to speak to some vets who currently or previously worked for a Banfield clinic.....it's the next best thing to working there yourself (of course, working there for a week or more is even better, if you can do that).

I don't like anything I've read about them, but I've never worked for them so I can't give any personal experience. You're still a ways away from needing to make the decision about working for them -- good luck in vet school.

 

[CountThePetals]

I have worked at Banfield for a while now and at least at my clinic there are two kinds of doctors. There are the doctors who drink Banfield's special koolaid and follow everything they preach, and there are doctors who throw that crap all out the window. I have seen one doctor get fired for not really 'fitting in' with the Banfield ideals, but that was kind of an extreme circumstance and shady to begin with. I'm not sure if the doctor I work with is a special case or not, but we are located in a pretty poor area and we often do bare bones treatment plans for clients. Honestly the most frustrating thing that pops up at Banfield is that we can't order specific drugs or items. We aren't allowed to carry revolution for canines because it competes with Banfield products and we aren't allowed to order most Bayer products because of the huge break up between them.

 

[laitmanvet]

I had never heard of Banfield until reading this forum. And I hope nothing I say insults people who work there, because most of the concerns I have are about the company much moreso than the people working there.
I guess what I get out of it is I hope all clients are as smart as the ones described by TomTheK9Fixr above. What if people don't know that there are alternative treatments? What if they don't think to get a second opinion and take their pet elsewhere? OR what if a client isn't aware of Banfield's policies? Does the Banfield staff make the client aware of the "bare bones" treatment that is available elsewhere?
If they don't, and a client thinks that the only option for his/her pet is the gold std or euthanasia than it seems unethical. I just hope that if a client at Banfield can't afford the treatment plan they have, then someone will tell them the option of going elsewhere. (and I realize that the "bare bones" treatment isn't always the best option, but it at least gives the animal a chance when it's all the client can afford.)

 

[libster06]

I had never heard of Banfield until reading this forum. And I hope nothing I say insults people who work there, because most of the concerns I have are about the company much moreso than the people working there.
I guess what I get out of it is I hope all clients are as smart as the ones described by TomTheK9Fixr above. What if people don't know that there are alternative treatments? What if they don't think to get a second opinion and take their pet elsewhere? OR what if a client isn't aware of Banfield's policies? Does the Banfield staff make the client aware of the "bare bones" treatment that is available elsewhere?
If they don't, and a client thinks that the only option for his/her pet is the gold std or euthanasia than it seems unethical. I just hope that if a client at Banfield can't afford the treatment plan they have, then someone will tell them the option of going elsewhere. (and I realize that the "bare bones" treatment isn't always the best option, but it at least gives the animal a chance when it's all the client can afford.)

I guess I can understand this, but sometimes that comes with making decisions for yourself.. I don't think anyone has an obligation to tell someone they can go elsewhere. That is the client's decision, and frankly, one that can be made (and in many cases IS made) by the client themselves, based on finances. I, myself, have left veterinary clinics after having the same unsuccessful treatments carried out on my dog with no results and an increasing drain on my bank account. No one at this place told me, "you know, it might be more cost effective and productive to seek treatment elsewhere." I did it on my own, because reason told me to. There are tons of businesses that employ this tactic of telling people they need to spend more and more and the only way to fix "X, Y, and Z" is to drop $1000 and that's that. Unethical? Possibly. But I don't really know of many vets who refer people to cheaper clinics or other places who will give alternative treatments, because its honestly not their job to.

 

[lunajett]

But I don't really know of many vets who refer people to cheaper clinics or other places who will give alternative treatments, because its honestly not their job to.

I have to disagree with this. One of the jobs of a vet is to advocate for the patient. By not offering alternatives, even if that alternative is to take the animal elsewhere and cost the vet/practice business, I'd feel like I am not fulfilling my role as advocate for that animal. Certainly, there are many other responsibilities of the vet, and sometimes these might be in some degree of conflict, but ultimately for me anyway, you've got to look out for that patient.

 

[deleted266066]

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[libster06]

I have to disagree with this. One of the jobs of a vet is to advocate for the patient. By not offering alternatives, even if that alternative is to take the animal elsewhere and cost the vet/practice business, I'd feel like I am not fulfilling my role as advocate for that animal. Certainly, there are many other responsibilities of the vet, and sometimes these might be in some degree of conflict, but ultimately for me anyway, you've got to look out for that patient.

I know vets who will do everything in their power to cuts costs, find alternatives, etc. but I don't know any who will send an animal to a cheaper place because the owner can't/doesn't want to go through with the suggested treatment.

Clarifying: I knew I shouldn't have written that last statement, because I truly didn't mean it like that. I just meant that I don't know of many vets who will refer after the owner declines treatment for whatever reason. I haven't seen every case out there, but I have worked in the field for some time now and I just haven't personally been working on a case with a vet and seen this happen. Not saying it doesn't, but it doesn't seem to be "protocol" as people seem to feel like it should be here. I know they will work with the client to find an alternative, but I feel like its also up to the client to decide to go elsewhere. I don't agree with the "gold standard or euthanasia" approach, as is being described of Banfield. However, the amount of people who come into small animal practices knowing they don't have the money for even bare bones treatment is enormous. I have seen it time after time. If vets referred people for every case that couldn't pay or didn't like the alternative at said clinic, they'd lose a quarter of their business. Not to mention, I don't feel like clients realize how expensive animal care is... every place I've been to is relatively the same price.

 

[MustLoveCats]

I've worked weekends at a Banfield as a pet nurse for over two years. While there are certain protocols that doctors must follow, I've never felt like a client has ever been given a cut and dry estimate for treatment. Every doctor that I work with will do their best to work with clients who have income restrictions. That said though, no doctor will give out anti-biotics or other prescription meds (with the exception maybe of tramadol/nsaids) without doing at least some diagnostics. Banfield has certain anesthesia protocols they must follow, and they have to charge for certain items so they show up on the "treatment" plan. I think a lot of what they do is profit motivated, but at the same time they are covering their butts for lawsuits.

If the client cannot afford bare bones diagnostics then we DO refer them to low cost clinics. We have a printed up lists of 4 or 5 low cost animal hospitals in the area that we give to clients when they cannot afford some procedures. Every Banfield is different though, just like each doctor is different. I think it has been a great place for me to get some excellent clinical experience, but I do not plan on working at a Banfield when I graduate.

I think the biggest limitation banfield has with treatments and protocols is not related to certain A, B, C, procedures they have to follow, but that their prices are fixed. An iof costs X dollars, plus X dollars for the blood draw, if you can't afford that, then you don't get it. The doctors can only work with the fixed amount of money that the owner can spend. Sure there are a few things you can tweak to make things cheaper, but overall the prices are fixed, and people either pay for it or go elsewhere.

Carpediem, if you have additional specific questions, feel free to PM me.

 

[laitmanvet]

If the client cannot afford bare bones diagnostics then we DO refer them to low cost clinics. We have a printed up lists of 4 or 5 low cost animal hospitals in the area that we give to clients when they cannot afford some procedures. Every Banfield is different though, just like each doctor is different. I think it has been a great place for me to get some excellent clinical experience, but I do not plan on working at a Banfield when I graduate.

This is really great to hear about, at least, some Banfield clinics.

I saw people above wrote that if a client can't pay for the treatment that it is up to him/her to go elsewhere. However, I imagine there are petowners out there who would hear a doctor tell them about the medical treatment for their pet and not think "there might be an alternative." There are people out there who might not question medical advice. It's sort of like when you bring your computer to bestbuy and they give you the diagnosis, and then you debate about whether you can afford it. Some people will leave with a competely rebuilt computer that they didn't need, all they needed was a motherboard...and then they're pissed off because they feel cheated. (I'm sorry if this is a horribly insensitive analogy, its the best I could think of.)

Except, of course, animals are living, breathing things and most people think about their computer and their pet differently. Most people will take medical advice from their vet more seriously then computer advice from the geek squad. Anyways, I'm glad to hear that these clinics are giving their clients a broad range of information about diagnosis/treatment options.

 

[dyachei]

Just wanted to post my own experiences, both working there and interviewing there.

I did not have too many problems with vets straying for the protocols or being "money-grubbing". There was only one incidence of that and the vet was reprimanded for it (she let a paying customer take precedence over an emergency that hadn't secured payment). The only protocols they have to use are the ones for anesthesia and since I'm not sure what those are, I can't comment on them. But we definitely offered different packages of what people needed. If someone had an ear infection, they were pretty adamant about at least doing a cytoscopy before giving mite meds or antibiotics. But that is just good medicine. In many cases, owners were presented with the gold standard and they changed it to suit their needs. Clients were often referred to other clinics when necessary, but with the options they were given they didn't typically leave for pricing.

When I interviewed recently, they told me that they had done away with ramping up and now have a set salary and pro-sal. You still need to make above a certain amount to get pro-sal, but that is true in any practice. They also only have you follow the anesthesia protocol to the letter in the area I applied to. They also never say "do this or euthanize your dog."

The biggest limitation for me was prescribing meds - they have a list you use for in house meds. You can still prescribe for outside pharmacies, but there is a lot they don't carry.