Smart pill

[EpointH]

I had an interesting interview question and wondered what you all think about this issue...my interviewer and I were talking about the use of steroids in athletes and he asked me the following:

Shave 10 points off your MCAT. Now, if there was a pill you could take that would make you 10% smarter, and taking it was the ONLY way to get into medical school and pursue your dream of becoming a doctor, would you take it? It will shave 5 years off your life.

Really interesting question, because we're all probably going to be faced with a dilemma like this vis-a-vis our patients, e.g. high doses of morphine for end-of-life care. What do you guys think?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Daichi Katase]

I had an interesting interview question and wondered what you all think about this issue...my interviewer and I were talking about the use of steroids in athletes and he asked me the following:

Shave 10 points off your MCAT. Now, if there was a pill you could take that would make you 10% smarter, and taking it was the ONLY way to get into medical school and pursue your dream of becoming a doctor, would you take it? It will shave 5 years off your life.

Really interesting question, because we're all probably going to be faced with a dilemma like this vis-a-vis our patients, e.g. high doses of morphine for end-of-life care. What do you guys think?

how did you respond?

 

[acidhouse303]

i have taken enough pills that have shaved off enough years of my life, so whats one more? id take the damn pill, get an md phd and learn how to cure myself

 

[RaistlinMajere]

Is this hypothetical smart pill legal? Even if it was, I wouldn't do it. Assuming, that I would have a decent quality of life for those last five years. There ARE more important things than becoming a doctor and being alive is one of them.

 

[EpointH]

I hemmed and hawed for awhile, saying that I could see both sides -- what's 5 years compared to being able to do what I loved for the rest of my life, but then again, that's 5 years that I won't be alive! In the interest of emphasizing to him how much I want to be a doctor, I said I would lean towards taking it. Incidentally, after the interview I asked him what he would do, and he said he'd definitely take it.

 

[acidhouse303]

yea but its the last 5 yrs of your life where youre drooling on yourself bound to a bedpan while your spawn schemes of ways to overthrow your empire
who wants to be around for that ?

 

[RaistlinMajere]

yea but its the last 5 yrs of your life where youre drooling on yourself bound to a bedpan while your spawn schemes of ways to overthrow your empire
who wants to be around for that ?

I'm assuming that (1) you can't "cure yourself" and (2) that you would have had a healthy last five years with normal kids who love you and don't want your empire at the expense of your life.

Otherwise this question becomes very easy to answer.

 

[QofQuimica]

I had an interesting interview question and wondered what you all think about this issue...my interviewer and I were talking about the use of steroids in athletes and he asked me the following:

Shave 10 points off your MCAT. Now, if there was a pill you could take that would make you 10% smarter, and taking it was the ONLY way to get into medical school and pursue your dream of becoming a doctor, would you take it? It will shave 5 years off your life.

Really interesting question, because we're all probably going to be faced with a dilemma like this vis-a-vis our patients, e.g. high doses of morphine for end-of-life care. What do you guys think?

I would be tempted, but ultimately I would not take it, for a few reasons: 1. I am already ten years older than the rest of you, and I want every year that's coming to me; 2. I'd still take my chances, even with 10 points shaved off my MCAT; and 3. there is just something repugnant to me, maybe even to the point of irrationality, about accepting "chemical help". Somehow I feel that if I'm gonna go to med school, I want to do it "the right way" or else not at all. It's kind of ironic that I feel this way, since I'm a pharmaceutical chemist.

 

[EpointH]

🙂

I tried to tell him I'd just take the 10-point hit and apply anyway, but he came back at me with the stipulation that taking the pill was the ONLY way I would ever get into medical school. So it was either pill or nothing.

Nothing like setting up an impossible reality, huh? 😉

 

[supersnuffles]

i'd take the whole damn bottle. 😀

 

[rockstar2525]

i'd take the whole damn bottle. 😀

Me too, Harvard here I come... 😉
I'm all about advantages, especially in chemical form 👍

 

[RaistlinMajere]

Seriously?? Any chemical advantage you can get? That concept is so far from my own view that I honestly have trouble understanding it. Maybe you are just kidding around?

 

[Croatalus_atrox]

Me too, Harvard here I come... 😉
I'm all about advantages, especially in chemical form 👍

Same here...
Piracetam, Vasopressin, Adderal, Gingko...Get on the nootropic train people! Whip those slacker neurons into shape!
As far as steroids/performance enhancers in sports go, I'd like to see more of them used rather than less. Can you imagine the melee in American football if all of the players were in the grip of 'roid rage? Talk about excitement! I'd probably start watching sports if I knew that it could degenerate at any time into a blood-soaked clash of drug-enhanced pandemonium.

 

[vhawk]

The idea in sports against steroids is NOT, and I repeat NOT, that there are adverse health effects. People who say that it is or talk about it are either lying to pursue and agenda or misinformed bleeding hearts. It is all about level playing field, which can only be achieved by either outlawing steroids or mandating them...either way, the object is, everyone uses wooden bats, everyone uses same football, everyone wears similar uniforms, so that everyone has the same starting point, and the rest is determined by hard work, etc...

The "What about the player's health" aspect is almost ludicrous...take a look at a football player, age 45, who didnt take a single steroid. Most can barely walk around, especially linemen, RBs, LBs... The game itself takes YEARs off players lives and we all cheer like fans at at the Arena, because we dont actually SEE that the game is killing them...

Sorry, I am really worked up about this issue lately, cause of the whole Barry Bonds thing, since he is my favorite player, baseball is my passion, etc...

 

[rockstar2525]

Same here...
Piracetam, Vasopressin, Adderal, Gingko...Get on the nootropic train people! Whip those slacker neurons into shape!
As far as steroids/performance enhancers in sports go, I'd like to see more of them used rather than less. Can you imagine the melee in American football if all of the players were in the grip of 'roid rage? Talk about excitement! I'd probably start watching sports if I knew that it could degenerate at any time into a blood-soaked clash of drug-enhanced pandemonium.

Ginko? Don't waste your time on the herbal stuff...go for the heavy hitters like snorting crushed adderal through a dollar bill!
Along the same lines I'd like to see more doctors using stimulants. Surgery is interesting as it is, but imagine how much more enjoyable your residency would be if all the tweaked out doctors and residents would brawl over the last few pills in the OR...

 

[Croatalus_atrox]

Ginko? Don't waste your time on the herbal stuff...go for the heavy hitters like snorting crushed adderal through a dollar bill!

Hardcore pre-med!

Along the same lines I'd like to see more doctors using stimulants. Surgery is interesting as it is, but imagine how much more enjoyable your residency would be if all the tweaked out doctors and residents would brawl over the last few pills in the OR...

We were somewhere around the ascending aorta when the drugs began to take hold. I remember saying something like, “I feel a bit lightheaded; maybe you should cut… ” And suddenly there was a terrible roar all around us and the room was full of what looked like huge bats, all swooping and screeching and diving around the OR, which was spinning about a hundred miles an hour. And a voice was screaming: “Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals? ”

 

[skoaner]

Shave 10 points off your MCAT. Now, if there was a pill you could take that would make you 10% smarter, and taking it was the ONLY way to get into medical school and pursue your dream of becoming a doctor, would you take it? It will shave 5 years off your life.

I've heard this one before, but it was about boob size vs intelligence for girls... naturally they picked boobs

 

[KiKat37]

Or, you could understand the question as one of enhancement and fairness. I'm doing my masters in biomedical ethics, so I discuss that stuff ad nauseum in my classes.

The issue of enhancement is debated now because of Prozac and Ritalin, both of which have minimal side effects and work very well... especially in people who don't really need them! = people who kinda feel low, but are not clinically depressed... or, people (mostly kids) who are a lil hyper, but who don't really suffer from ADHD, etc.

There are plenty of books on the topic: "Listening to Prozac" (Peter Kramer) and "Better Than Well" (Carl Elliot) are the best, I think.

Prozac, for ex, makes you more focused, more confident, and increases mental agility, etc. In other words, if you take it without really needing it, you are "enhanced". So, now you can score higher on the MCAT!

Issues? well, pre-med students are competitive. So, even if they don't have to take the pill, they will feel pressured to take it to compete with those who do take it... kind of like steroids... it's a "free choice under pressure"... that's why steroids are not allowed in sports.... as someone else said, making them illegal evens out the playing field.

On the other hand, you could argue that taking Kaplan classes is also a form of enhancement... And it's unfair because those who take them have an advantage over those who can't (let's say for financial reason)... Yet, it's legal. So, why would taking the smart pill not be legal?

Anyway... just wanted to throw in my two cents... a nice distraction from the awful paper I'm writing on euthanasia... 😡

 

[dalynn]

I really hope those of you future docs who are talking about the plus side of taking steroids are joking. If not, you need to take a serious look at the effects they have on people before you even think about practicing medicine.
And by the way, if you know someone who's had a problem with this, it's really not funny. 👎

To the OP:
Did the interviewer say whether this pill would make you smarter for the rest of your life or if you would have to keep taking it? If it just makes you smart enough to pass the MCAT but doesn't make you smart enough to make it through med school and be a good doc, what's the point?
Just curious...I still don't think I'd take it. If I can't do it without drugs then I think maybe it's not meant to be.

 

[EpointH]

To the OP:
Did the interviewer say whether this pill would make you smarter for the rest of your life or if you would have to keep taking it? If it just makes you smart enough to pass the MCAT but doesn't make you smart enough to make it through med school and be a good doc, what's the point?
Just curious...I still don't think I'd take it. If I can't do it without drugs then I think maybe it's not meant to be.

He didn't actually say. The feeling I got was that it would make you smart enough to be a good doctor for the rest of your life, if you just took it that once.

Just curious -- for those people that would take the pill, what's the maximum amount of years it could decrease your life before you wouldn't take it anymore? What if it wasn't five years, but ten? Or twenty?

 

[Sunflower189]

Two words: HELL YES.

I'd do it right now, never mind with 10 points lopped off my MCAT.

Not sure I could live with not being smart enough to contribute to humanity, even in a small way. I know that's where 80% of the population is...but...call it pride, but the day I'm not useful anymore is the day I want to die.

Nor am I particularly attached to my own body chemistry. It wasn't handed down from the heavens, it was what I happened to be born with, and there may be more efficient ways of doing things.

It's more obvious in sports - some of us have genes that allow for better endurance, or faster muscle buildup, or faster growth...and then there is the majority who have to take drugs to get the same effect. But it's a factor in intellect as well. I've got friends who lose more IQ points from a night on the town than I've got, period...there's something different about them, and it ain't just work ethic. And if I could figure out how to get that difference myself, I'd do it, consequences be damned.

 

[Mediculous]

Hardcore pre-med!

We were somewhere around the ascending aorta when the drugs began to take hold. I remember saying something like, “I feel a bit lightheaded; maybe you should cut… ” And suddenly there was a terrible roar all around us and the room was full of what looked like huge bats, all swooping and screeching and diving around the OR, which was spinning about a hundred miles an hour. And a voice was screaming: “Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals? ”

As your lawyer, I advise you to post on SDN more often.

 

[acl3623]

i'd take the whole damn bottle. 😀

pass it to the left...

 

[Croatalus_atrox]

As your lawyer, I advise you to post on SDN more often.

The thing that worries me is the posting. There's nothing more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than an SDNer in the depths of a posting binge.

 

[Ross434]

I really hope those of you future docs who are talking about the plus side of taking steroids are joking. If not, you need to take a serious look at the effects they have on people before you even think about practicing medicine.
And by the way, if you know someone who's had a problem with this, it's really not funny. 👎

Steroids usually only have major negative effects when abused. If you're being supervised by a pharmacologist or medical chemist (doctor?) and take them properly, the negative effects (in terms of harmful side effects) are minimal.

 

[dalynn]

Steroids usually only have major negative effects when abused. If you're being supervised by a pharmacologist or medical chemist (doctor?) and take them properly, the negative effects (in terms of harmful side effects) are minimal.

I didn't mean no one should ever take steroids or other drugs for MEDICAL REASONS. I just meant that making light of ABUSE really isn't cool. I realize that there are plenty of cases when steroids can have positive effects when used properly. But when you've had someone close to you with a problem with abuse, it's really offensive to have people (especially future doctors) making light of it.
I like the jokes about premed obsessiveness, this whole process, etc. as much as anybody else. However, I think some things are completely inappropriate to joke about, and frankly just not funny.

 

[funshine]

Not sure I could live with not being smart enough to contribute to humanity, even in a small way.

whoever said you had to be SMART to "contribute to humanity"?
there are lots of things that can be done to improve the world, and most of them require a benevolent heart more than anything else.

Nor am I particularly attached to my own body chemistry. It wasn't handed down from the heavens, it was what I happened to be born with, and there may be more efficient ways of doing things.

I guess that's where we differ. I figure there are already plenty of people in the world who can contribute their smarts...the rest of us, we all have a role to play as well. Why be dissatisfied with what you have been given and try to be somehting you're not?

 

[supersnuffles]

Just curious -- for those people that would take the pill, what's the maximum amount of years it could decrease your life before you wouldn't take it anymore? What if it wasn't five years, but ten? Or twenty?

The last thing I want in life is become another gomer. That I think is the worst way to go. So what's five-ten off the already not so prime of your life? The fact is, if intelligence is a big part of your life now, and for the next 30-50 years, that quality of life will increase. Isn't that better than living longer and hating your life? Quality vs. quantity.