Smartest Docs?

[Renaissance Man]

I always am afraid to post a question because I have few posts and feel like others will call me troll or say my question sucks, but anyways I am truly curious about something. I was wondering, what do the "brains" of medical school usually end up choosing as their specialty? Or even better, during your rounds with various doctors, which specialty stuck out as needing a lot of smarts? I am not saying I am really smart, nor trying to pick a specialty, just a question.

In that same line of though, I know that you need great grades and reviews for derm or radiology, but does that mean they get the smartest medical students? Any response to this question is appreciated, thanks guys....and girls.

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[danzman]

This is a fair question but remember that there are different kinds of "smarts."
A pain doc and I had this same discussion. His take was that most of the lesser paid IM guys were the smartest, endo, and renal being his example, and I would tend to agree. Renal and ID both seem to attract sharp people, but they are less than personable. The academic neuro guys seem to be the most intelligent to me, but I've me FM guys that are geniuses, just in a different way. So to make a list..

Nephro/rads onc = smartest
Derm = best memory(book smarts)
Neuro = most intelligent
Neurosurgeons = most educated
P.A. = smarter than all the above as they realized that medical school was a waste of time.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

derm, plastics

 

[tennisball80]

<----------- Right here

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Realistically we all have our preferences in specialty. I know people who had a 240 on the USMLE and still went into FP or PC. Its all what you want to do really, if neurosurgery interest you then by all means go into it. But that doesn't mean that the neurosurgeon will be smarter then the Family medicine practitioner.
You cant measure something subjective like this really in terms of mental capacity. But statistically due to higher score requirements the majority of the people in residency's such as neurosurgery will in fact be more intelligent then the majority of IM.

 

[Bernoull]

This is a fair question but remember that there are different kinds of "smarts."
A pain doc and I had this same discussion. His take was that most of the lesser paid IM guys were the smartest, endo, and renal being his example, and I would tend to agree. Renal and ID both seem to attract sharp people, but they are less than personable. The academic neuro guys seem to be the most intelligent to me, but I've me FM guys that are geniuses, just in a different way. So to make a list..

Nephro/rads onc = smartest
Derm = best memory(book smarts)
Neuro = most intelligent
Neurosurgeons = most educated
P.A. = smarter than all the above as they realized that medical school was a waste of time.

awesome..

 

[ronaldo23]

plastics, derm, rads, opth, neurosurgery are the smartest docs (on average, and if by smarts you are referring to the academics alone)

 

[SusGob711]

Similiar to applying to a top-tier medical school, I think that the more competitive the program the more competitive the applicant. Now this doesn't mean that a rads resident is a book worm or natural more genius...it might mean that he/she loved rads and worked their butt off for a spot. Like another poster said there are probably idiots and geniuses in EVERY program but obviously you must have a certain aptitude to score a top R.O.A.D.(E.) or other competitive residencies.

 

[orthomyxo]

This is a fair question but remember that there are different kinds of "smarts."
A pain doc and I had this same discussion. His take was that most of the lesser paid IM guys were the smartest, endo, and renal being his example, and I would tend to agree. Renal and ID both seem to attract sharp people, but they are less than personable. The academic neuro guys seem to be the most intelligent to me, but I've me FM guys that are geniuses, just in a different way. So to make a list..

Nephro/rads onc = smartest
Derm = best memory(book smarts)
Neuro = most intelligent
Neurosurgeons = most educated
P.A. = smarter than all the above as they realized that medical school was a waste of time.

Good one

 

[Renaissance Man]

Thanks guys, obviously I know that it comes down to personal preference, and making wide generalizations is never accurate.

So there is a correlation between competitive residencies and being intelligent? People want to be a dermatologist because of the pay, and the lifestyle (and because people love it) therefore it gets competitive residents, but does being a dermatologist require anymore brain power than say a general surgeon? I don't know why I am thinking about this, but it interests me to hear what people say who are in the fields or at least very close to many different types of docs.

 

[silverhorse84]

Neurologists have the stigma of being the geeks/nerds of the medical community (so the nerdiest of the nerds, ). I've heard a few neurologists say they consider peds neuro to be the smartest because of what they're dealing with - a developing brain that will likely be at different stages for each of your patients.

 

[surftheiop]

I always am afraid to post a question because I have few posts and feel like others will call me troll or say my question sucks, but anyways I am truly curious about something. I was wondering, what do the "brains" of medical school usually end up choosing as their specialty? Or even better, during your rounds with various doctors, which specialty stuck out as needing a lot of smarts? I am not saying I am really smart, nor trying to pick a specialty, just a question.

In that same line of though, I know that you need great grades and reviews for derm or radiology, but does that mean they get the smartest medical students? Any response to this question is appreciated, thanks guys....and girls.

Don't worry, by the time you graduate from CofC you'll have no brain cells left anyway

(Completely kidding)

I've heard that people in rads have to know the most about the widest range of pathology.

 

[ussdfiant]

I saw this mentioned in another post, but I share the sentiment so I'll paraphrase it. When I have a pt and I really have no idea what's going on, 9 times out of 10 I consult either ID, Heme/Onc, or Nephro. That's just my real world experience.

 

[Renaissance Man]

haha could be true surftheiop, you from around here?

 

[surftheiop]

haha could be true surftheiop, you from around here?

Yeah, grew up in SC, hope to come home to MUSC for med school.

 

[njbmd]

My rule:

• People who get As in medical school get into academic medicine.
• People who get Bs in medical school get to be department chairmen/chief of staff.
• People who get Cs in medical school, get rich.

 

[Mister T]

My rule:

• People who get As in medical school get into academic medicine.
• People who get Bs in medical school get to be department chairmen/chief of staff.
• People who get Cs in medical school, get rich.

People who flunk out of medical school end up broke.

 

[ts1370]

My rule:

• People who get As in medical school get into academic medicine.
• People who get Bs in medical school get to be department chairmen/chief of staff.
• People who get Cs in medical school, get rich.

Sounds like business students in undergrad.

 

[Renaissance Man]

and which are you njbmd?

 

[sideways]

Here's the truth: the people who get into the most competitive specialties ARE NOT the most intelligent, in my observation. They are just the most pathologically driven to get into the most competitive specialties.

Getting straight A's in med school and knocking Step 1 out of the park is all about hard work, not brains. You can't be an idiot obviously, but I find being really smart can actually be a detriment in med school given that many highly intelligent people see through the mania of compulsively hard work, say "to hell with it," and thus get lower scores.

The guy gunning for neurosurgery isn't a genius. He's a narcissistic workaholic with a little teeny one that needs to prove to the world through his occupation how great he is, in spite of the fact that he doesn't believe it himself. This low self-image is ironically the very fuel needed to get through the excessively long hours required of someone who wants to pursue neurosurgery, so it's very self-selective in that respect. In the end, the process marries psychopathology with the demands of the given specialty very nicely.

These are generalizations, obviously, but they're pretty accurate. Once you get into med school, you'll see. Oh will you see.

 

[Morsetlis]

What if you're a Pediatrician with a teeny one?

What does that say about you?

 

[BMEZephyr]

Here's the truth: the people who get into the most competitive specialties ARE NOT the most intelligent, in my observation. They are just the most pathologically driven to get into the most competitive specialties.

Getting straight A's in med school and knocking Step 1 out of the park is all about hard work, not brains. You can't be an idiot obviously, but I find being really smart can actually be a detriment in med school given that many highly intelligent people see through the mania of compulsively hard work, say "to hell with it," and thus get lower scores.

The guy gunning for neurosurgery isn't a genius. He's a narcissistic workaholic with a little teeny one that needs to prove to the world through his occupation how great he is, in spite of the fact that he doesn't believe it himself. This low self-image is ironically the very fuel needed to get through the excessively long hours required of someone who wants to pursue neurosurgery, so it's very self-selective in that respect. In the end, the process marries psychopathology with the demands of the given specialty very nicely.

These are generalizations, obviously, but they're pretty accurate. Once you get into med school, you'll see. Oh will you see.

That was so beautifully well put that I cried a little inside. All of the characteristics you named pretty much IDed me better than anything else.

You sir, are an absolute Godsend. And for that, I commend you.

 

[ts1370]

Oh man, that's a disappointment!

So, I need to get a penile reduction in order to fulfill my dream of doing pro bono reconstructive plastic surgery for disfigured children? I guess there isn't any hope left and I must succumb to something I would much less rather do.

Your generalizations and overall negative attitude is sickening. Have you ever thought that maybe the people pursuing careers in neurosurgery have a genuine passion to help others more than themselves?

I hope medical school doesn't embitter me in the same way it has you, sideways.

 

[Mackey]

Here's the truth: the people who get into the most competitive specialties ARE NOT the most intelligent, in my observation. They are just the most pathologically driven to get into the most competitive specialties.

Getting straight A's in med school and knocking Step 1 out of the park is all about hard work, not brains. You can't be an idiot obviously, but I find being really smart can actually be a detriment in med school given that many highly intelligent people see through the mania of compulsively hard work, say "to hell with it," and thus get lower scores.

The guy gunning for neurosurgery isn't a genius. He's a narcissistic workaholic with a little teeny one that needs to prove to the world through his occupation how great he is, in spite of the fact that he doesn't believe it himself. This low self-image is ironically the very fuel needed to get through the excessively long hours required of someone who wants to pursue neurosurgery, so it's very self-selective in that respect. In the end, the process marries psychopathology with the demands of the given specialty very nicely.

These are generalizations, obviously, but they're pretty accurate. Once you get into med school, you'll see. Oh will you see.

Or... you know.. they like the CNS.

 

[Morsetlis]

Or rather, CUTTING the CNS...

 

[tremulousNeedle]

Realistically we all have our preferences in specialty. I know people who had a 240 on the USMLE and still went into FP or PC. Its all what you want to do really, if neurosurgery interest you then by all means go into it. But that doesn't mean that the neurosurgeon will be smarter then the Family medicine practitioner.
You cant measure something subjective like this really in terms of mental capacity. But statistically due to higher score requirements the majority of the people in residency's such as neurosurgery will in fact be more intelligent then the majority of IM.

I definitely agree with this one. In all specialties, and professions in general, there is a wide range of intelligence. Not that I think board scores correlate well with how good of a doctor you will be, but in every specialty you can find people who scored > 240 on step 1 of the boards. I fall into this category and will be training in Emergency Medicine in June. A friend of mine who score in the 260 range will be going into Neurosurgery, and another >240 who is going into Internal Medicine. People don't choose their specialty based on their grades and board scores; they choose their specialty based on what they see themselves doing for the rest of their working lives.

-senior medical student / admissions committee interviewer

 

[sideways]

Oh man, that's a disappointment!

So, I need to get a penile reduction in order to fulfill my dream of doing pro bono reconstructive plastic surgery for disfigured children? I guess there isn't any hope left and I must succumb to something I would much less rather do.

Your generalizations and overall negative attitude is sickening. Have you ever thought that maybe the people pursuing careers in neurosurgery have a genuine passion to help others more than themselves?

I hope medical school doesn't embitter me in the same way it has you, sideways.

I'm not sure what there is for me to be bitter about. Just my observation dude.

BTW, neurosurgery isn't exactly a "high yield" way of helping people. You'll need to come up with a more compelling explanation.

 

[ts1370]

I'm not sure what there is for me to be bitter about. Just my observation dude.

BTW, neurosurgery isn't exactly a "high yield" way of helping people. You'll need to come up with a more compelling explanation.

Did I ever state that it was a "high yield" way of helping people?

If you're referring to this:

Have you ever thought that maybe the people pursuing careers in neurosurgery have a genuine passion to help others more than themselves?

I didn't mean that they help others more than themselves quantitatively, I mean that they sacrifice years of their lives training to become the qualified, specialized surgeons that they are.


My point is that people don't always choose a career path based on your dumbed down version of a Freudian overcompensation theory.

 

[xanthomondo]

Can someone tell me the link of intelligence to nephrology? I just don't get it

 

[Hoody]

P.A. = smarter than all the above as they realized that medical school was a waste of time.

 

[Morsetlis]

The nephrologist I shadowed for 2 hours consulted me on why gallstones kept forming in the biliary ducts of an 80+ yow even after a cholecystectomy.

This morning a real-estate-turned-PA tried to sell me a future house.

 

[mipp0]

This is a fair question but remember that there are different kinds of "smarts."
A pain doc and I had this same discussion. His take was that most of the lesser paid IM guys were the smartest, endo, and renal being his example, and I would tend to agree. Renal and ID both seem to attract sharp people, but they are less than personable. The academic neuro guys seem to be the most intelligent to me, but I've me FM guys that are geniuses, just in a different way. So to make a list..

Nephro/rads onc = smartest
Derm = best memory(book smarts)
Neuro = most intelligent
Neurosurgeons = most educated
P.A. = smarter than all the above as they realized that medical school was a waste of time.

Clearly you know what you're talking about.

I like your PA description the best. Honestly, we gotz ta be half crazy...naw full crazy to be doing this to ourselves.

 

[BozoSparky]

Can someone tell me the link of intelligence to nephrology? I just don't get it

they really understand the kidney...pretty smart if you ask me.

 

[Hoody]

I'd say the majority of docs are "intelligent".....smart, I'm not so sure.


Its difficult to say who is more intelligent though, the doctor who knows a whole lot about one or two organs, or the doctor who knows a little about each organ.

 

[Morsetlis]

Or the radiologist/pathologist who knows everything about every organ, but can't do anything about them.

 

[riverjib]

This is a fair question but remember that there are different kinds of "smarts."
A pain doc and I had this same discussion. His take was that most of the lesser paid IM guys were the smartest, endo, and renal being his example, and I would tend to agree. Renal and ID both seem to attract sharp people, but they are less than personable. The academic neuro guys seem to be the most intelligent to me, but I've me FM guys that are geniuses, just in a different way. So to make a list..

Nephro/rads onc = smartest
Derm = best memory(book smarts)
Neuro = most intelligent
Neurosurgeons = most educated
P.A. = smarter than all the above as they realized that medical school was a waste of time.

LOL!!! Love this answer.

I think plastics and radiology should be added to this list. Derm is actually not that hard, but unbelievably competitive due to the easy lifestyle (and relatively easy residency): MONEY ratio.

The question is good, but opens up a lot of debate, and really encompasses multiple questions, only a few of which include: Which residency is hardest to get? Which specialty is among the most difficult in terms of training? Which specialty requires the most book smarts or innate intelligence overall? You get the idea...

It's an innocuous question. I won't be surprised if this thread is still alive in a few months...

 

[Hoody]

Or the radiologist/pathologist who knows everything about every organ, but can't do anything about them.

Good point....but do rads really know the function? or just the whereabouts....


I'd say Medical Examiners probably have to be pretty intelligent as well.

 

[Hepatic]

Peds! Sorry...just a bit biased. I think the smartest docs are the ones who picked the field that made them the happiest.

 

[danzman]

Peds! Sorry...just a bit biased. I think the smartest docs are the ones who picked the field that made them the happiest.

Perhaps, but they are without a doubt the dorkiest of all physicians. Everytime I talk to a pediatrician I feel like they should be on sesame street, or performing a puppet show.

I would love to get the pediatricians and the ortho guys together for a social event.
What a trip that would be.

 

[loveoforganic]

"Hey, let's get a football game going"

"That sounds super! As long as we tackle with hugs!"

"..."

 

[Morsetlis]

I'm sorry but that sounds fun to me.

 

[Hepatic]

Perhaps, but they are without a doubt the dorkiest of all physicians. Everytime I talk to a pediatrician I feel like they should be on sesame street, or performing a puppet show.

I would love to get the pediatricians and the ortho guys together for a social event.
What a trip that would be.

Hmmm...I hope you're basing your opinion off of personal experience instead of Patch Adams the movie. But I do agree...pediatricians often have a different outlook which I'm sure can come off as dorky. But it's that "dorkinesss" that is often required to entertain that 18 mo long enough to get a decent physical exam. I just tend to reserve my "dorkiness" for patient encounters.

 

[TX515]

Plastic, Urology, Radiology, Derm, IM

 

[gluon999]

Or the radiologist/pathologist who knows everything about every organ, but can't do anything about them.

Rads know a lot (as much, if not not more than the pathologist) and can do A LOT about the pathology. Ever heard of Interventional Radiology? They can do dozens of procedures ranging from vascular stenting to brain aneurysm coiling/clipping, to chemo-ablation, RFAs, chemo-embolization, TIPS, biopsies, drainages, thoracentesis, paracentesis, lumbar punctures, central lines, etc. Pretty amazing field if you ask me, that is why I am going into it.

 

[Hepatic]

Rads know a lot (as much, if not not more than the pathologist) and can do A LOT about the pathology. Ever heard of Interventional Radiology? They can do dozens of procedures ranging from vascular stenting to brain aneurysm coiling/clipping, to chemo-ablation, RFAs, chemo-embolization, TIPS, biopsies, drainages, thoracentesis, paracentesis, lumbar punctures, central lines, etc. Pretty amazing field if you ask me, that is why I am going into it.

Rads do know a lot...not sure if I agree that they know more than pathologists...i think a lot of radiologists I speak to over the phone THINK they know more than everyone else.

I think the real question the OP should be asking is....1) Which specialties require the smartest docs and 2) Which specialties require the smartest medical students.

1) I'd argue that the "good" primary care docs are extremely smart. Unfortunately, FP and Peds and even IM for that matter often attract people who were not necessarily the best medical students and were sorta forced into those fields. But in general...to be a very GOOD primary care doc you really have to know a lot...about a lot.

2) Your rads, derm anesthesia and other lifestyle residencies are very difficult to get into...however, once through residency I'd argue against labeling them the "smartest docs." Of course, these specialties do attract the brightest in each class.

My point is...all specialties have very "smart docs" but to be able to declare a smartest specialty is difficult.

 

[gluon999]

Rads do know a lot...not sure if I agree that they know more than pathologists...i think a lot of radiologists I speak to over the phone THINK they know more than everyone else.

I beg to differ. Rads pretty much need to know all types of pathology, from head to toe, and need to know a diff dx about everything they see on the scan, much like the pathologist. There is a reason why a rads residency is longer than a pathology residency. And around 80% of rads these days end up doing a fellowship, adding 1-2 years to their training. Not sure what percentage of pathologists specialize. Nonetheless, I don't mean to take a swipe at the path guys, I do respect their knowledge base. My point was that rads can play a very active role in pt. management, by offering a myriad of minimally invasive alternatives to surgery.

Other docs that I have found to be extremely intelligent and 'smart' are Nephro and ID. I'd call primary care docs smart, but unfortunately, lot of their day to day work involves paper pushing and decision making governed by algorithms enforced by insurance companies (which if not done or reasons not properly documented, can adversely affect billing).

 

[Hepatic]

I beg to differ. Rads pretty much need to know all types of pathology, from head to toe, and need to know a diff dx about everything they see on the scan, much like the pathologist. There is a reason why a rads residency is longer than a pathology residency. And around 80% of rads these days end up doing a fellowship, adding 1-2 years to their training. Not sure what percentage of pathologists specialize. Nonetheless, I don't mean to take a swipe at the path guys, I do respect their knowledge base. My point was that rads can play a very active role in pt. management, by offering a myriad of minimally invasive alternatives to surgery.

Other docs that I have found to be extremely intelligent and 'smart' are Nephro and ID. I'd call primary care docs smart, but unfortunately, lot of their day to day work involves paper pushing and decision making governed by algorithms enforced by insurance companies (which if not done or reasons not properly documented, can adversely affect billing).

We're gonna have a hard time agreeing...esp since you haven't yet finished medical school and still wet behind the ears.

I'm sorry but my practice does not involve "algorithms" enforced by insurance companies. This is a typical pre-med/medical student assumption after watching too much Grey's Anatomy.

As far as who's smarter...pathologist vs a radiologist? Who cares...both are smart...if it makes you feel better to think of the latter being smarter then go with that. I really think it comes down to what your practice utilizes more. Me personally, the pathologist plays more of a role b/c 8/10 images I acquire I can interpret myself.

Btw...congrats on getting picked up for a rads residency. It's a great field.

 

[gluon999]

We're gonna have a hard time agreeing...esp since you haven't yet finished medical school and still wet behind the ears.

I'm sorry but my practice does not involve "algorithms" enforced by insurance companies. This is a typical pre-med/medical student assumption after watching too much Grey's Anatomy.

As far as who's smarter...pathologist vs a radiologist? Who cares...both are smart...if it makes you feel better to think of the latter being smarter then go with that. I really think it comes down to what your practice utilizes more. Me personally, the pathologist plays more of a role b/c 8/10 images I acquire I can interpret myself.

Btw...congrats on getting picked up for a rads residency. It's a great field.

I found primary care docs to be consumed by mountains of mundane paperwork such as filling out disability forms, referral forms, insurance forms, imaging request forms, etc. There is nothing cognitively challenging about convincing a part-time employee at an insurance company whose job it is to deny requests, why your patient needs an MRI. I find that unfortunate b/c these docs are spending tons of time fighting red tape, time that could be better spent with patients. However, I can agree to disagree if your business model is different. Good for you.

 

[Narmerguy]

Peds! Sorry...just a bit biased. I think the smartest docs are the ones who picked the field that made them the happiest.

Why do you assume ortho isn't the field that made the ortho guys the happiest? Same for ob/gyn and all the rest.

 

[Hepatic]

Why do you assume ortho isn't the field that made the ortho guys the happiest? Same for ob/gyn and all the rest.

I was trying to say what you just said.