Smoking weed

[jetproppilot]

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My eldest son (24) is a decorated war veteran

ARMY SERGEANT

on the downhill slope of his Army career

spending the last few months in the Army at

Fort Carson, Colorado

close to

PIKE'S PEAK

I'm very proud of my eldest son. Those of you who have followed my writings are aware of his travels, most importantly his year-long deployment in a live fire zone in Iraq where

PEOPLE SHOT AT HIM WITH INTENT TO KILL

AND HE SHOT BACK

AND VICE VERSA

a time I'm glad to report is behind us.

Then followed a tour in South Korea which he enjoyed less than his time in Iraq...remarkable but true...

CURRENT DAY EVAN IS enjoying being stationed in Colorado!!! First of all he's

STATESIDE enjoying the USA

but on top of that he's in arguably one the most

BEAUTIFUL PARTS OF OUR COUNTRY!

He's in the mountains, it's May so it's not freezing. He's enjoying taking his

GSXR-600 on rides thru curvy mountainous roads with his other bike riding army buddies, he's playing golf, he's

PULLING UP TO A STARBUCK'S IN COLORADO on his motorcycle and seeing people outside sitting at tables on their IPADs, drinking coffee and

SMOKING WEED.

Recent phone call:

"Dad...hilarious man...I pulled up on my bike at a Starbuck's and I could smell weed as soon as I pulled up!" (laughter from Evan)

First off, I'm elated my son is enjoying his last few months in the Army in a STUNNING part of our country.

THOSE OF YOU THAT LIVE IN COLORADO, MY HAT IS OFF TO YOU MAN.

THE BEAUTY YOU SEE ON A DAILY BASIS IS CAPTIVATING.


Second,

I'M HAPPY TO SEE ACCEPTANCE OF WEED

as

COMEDICALLY REPORTED

by my eldest son in Colorado

WEED IS NOT A GATEWAY DRUG

like we've been lead to believe.

Our country has wasted countless dollars hunting and indicting

WEED FARMERS,

YET I SIT HERE DRINKING A MARTINI

COMPLETELY LEGALLY

I find it ironic how

ALCOHOL IS LEGAL and

WEED IS NOT.

Alcohol

MAKES PEOPLE ANGRY, CAUSE FIGHTS, AND KILL PEOPLE IN CAR ACCIDENTS DRIVING 95 MILES AN HOUR.

Weed

MAKES PEOPLE HAPPY, PEACEFUL, FRIENDLY, AND DRIVE 15 MILES AN HOUR.

It's really hard to kill someone behind the wheel driving 15 miles an hour.

As I sit here in my living room drinking a

COMPLETELY LEGAL MARTINI,

I give a

SHOUT OUT

to those states out there that have

LEGALIZED WEED.

It is

MUCH LESS HARMFUL THAN (LEGAL) ALCOHOL.

JET'S OPINION:

BUY ZIG-ZAG INSTEAD OF KETTLE ONE

 

[DreamMachine]

 

[VentdependenT]

its way better than the "spice" synthetic $hit people are smoking. They end up getting tazed, rhabdo, agressive, zyprexad, tubed, and propofoled.

I dont get the synthetic market. This crap isnt safer, its not safe period.

If doin drugs is your thing thats cool. Just dont do the $hit that leads to a Tazen.

I agree that having alcohol but not pot as a legal drug makes no sense from a logic perspective. It would make more sense to outlaw cigarettes, which are linked to the top five causes of mortality in older adults (cancer, heart disease, stroke, copd, pneumonia). But its all about lobbying and not about reason isnt it?

Im just a little cog in the machine. If things work out my three boys will be smarter cogs.

 

[Surfer]

the "weed doesn't kill people" argument is tired and wrong. i've spent enough time doing trauma at 2am to know that yes, weed kills people. often innocent people. car accidents, gun fights, knife fights, whatever. I've seen it all. because of weed. i do not want anybody driving towards me while getting high. i do not want my neighbor getting high in his basement instead of working. it just leads to a higher likelihood of him needing to rob my house to support his drug habit. yes, i've had my house robbed. several times. always by drug addicts. all of them smoked weed (some did additional drugs too). i was able to catch some of them because they were stupid. yes, weed makes you stupid. no, i don't want my community to be stupid, they're already dumb enough already.

if there were zero social nets, and a druggie had to get by on his own, i woulnd't care near as much. but i'm tired of my taxes going to food stamps, welfare, section 8 housing, low income housing, etc etc while watching the beneficiaries light up. its just wrong.

i have several close friends who work in law enforcement along our southern border. they get quite upset when people start talking nonsense about weed saying its a non issue. they laugh when people say legalizing it will somehow put the drug lords down south out of business. its a violent industry and it will only open new markets.

stop with the prohibition non-sense. they are two separate issues. How many people died every year during prohibition from alcohol violence, and how many people die every year now because of alcohol? just a sincere question.

weed is bad. keep it illegal and prosecute the users.

 

[G0S2]

Trauma at my U at 2am is overwhelmingly due to ETOH.

 

[Surfer]

Trauma at my U at 2am is overwhelmingly due to ETOH.

sure, but i've seen more than enough from weed to dispel the myth that "weed doesn't kill."

 

[jetproppilot]

sure, but i've seen more than enough from weed to dispel the myth that "weed doesn't kill."

I'M MUCH OLDER THAN YOU

I'VE SEEN ALOT MORE THAN YOU

I moonlighted as an ER Doc during my

ENTIRE ANESTHESIA RESIDENCY ON WEEKENDS

THREE WEEKENDS OUT OF FOUR

FOR THREE YEARS I was a Staff ER doc at a busy place and

WEED DIDN'T EVEN PLAY A

MINOR PART

IN THE ACCIDENTS I SAW

SOOOOOO MANY

DRUNK DRIVERS

Surfer, you're either living in AMSTERDAM or you

REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

It's one or the other:

1) You live in Amsterdam

2) You don't know what you're talking about.

I COMPLETELY DISAGREE WITH YOU

 

[jetproppilot]

weed is bad. keep it illegal and prosecute the users.

I've got several

ARTSY RIGHT BRAINED FRIENDS

who are

WAKE-N-BAKERS.

What's a WAKE-N-BAKER?

It's a dude that wakes up in the morning and the first thing he does is

FIRE UP A BLUNT

said dude continues said ritual throughout the day

THEY AWAKE AND

GET BAKED

CUTTING EDGE, ARTISTIC DUDES MAN.

Look at the music industry...literally

RIDDEN BY

WAKE-AND-BAKERS

DAVE MATTHEWS.

BRANDON BOYD.

Do those names ring a bell?

Dude, SERIOUSLY?

YOU THINK POT IS BAD??

(btw are you writing this while drinking a Corona or a Bud Lite or an Abita Amber?)

You wanna talk about

HYPOCRISY?

ALCOHOL IS LEGAL.

POT IS NOT.

WOW.

I could go on and on about alcohol morbidities both in the physical and emotional realm and how weed doesn't share said morbidities but that's a completely different thread

 

[Ronin786]

The fact that alcohol is legal and pot isn't is just more of an argument towards banning alcohol (and smoking) than making weed legal.

Of course that won't happen, but instead of adding another legal drug that impairs the masses, we should be trying to limit things that are even more harmful.

 

[pgg]

Legalize everything. Prosecute and punish abusers who commit crimes while under the influence.

I'm tired of paying for the drug war. I'm tired of the stupidity, expense, and injustice of incarcerating non-violent drug offenders. The laws only serve to turn drug-addled losers into drug-addled criminals.

 

[KLPM]

The fact that alcohol is legal and pot isn't is just more of an argument towards banning alcohol (and smoking) than making weed legal.

I agree particularly given that we know so much about the adverse effects of alcohol and smoking.

This is me after a few drinks:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccB3KZxlgiA[/YOUTUBE]

 

[dhb]

Legalize everything. Prosecute and punish abusers who commit crimes while under the influence.

I'm tired of paying for the drug war. I'm tired of the stupidity, expense, and injustice of incarcerating non-violent drug offenders. The laws only serve to turn drug-addled losers into drug-addled criminals.

Kinda strange to be against weed with "Surfer" as nick 😉 with that said trauma due to weed? you must be smoking something stonger.
In Belgium where weed is almost legal i don't remember seeing anybody in the ICU for being high on pot.

 

[pgg]

Kinda strange to be against weed with "Surfer" as nick 😉 with that said trauma due to weed? you must be smoking something stonger.
In Belgium where weed is almost legal i don't remember seeing anybody in the ICU for being high on pot.

I knew you were in Europe; didn't know you were in Belgium. A group of Belgian doctors just joined us here in Kandahar, Afghanistan for a while. One anesthesiologist. Nice guy.


To keep the thread sorta on topic, I'll see if I can dig up the picture of the MASSIVE field of marijuana I saw last time I was here. Complete with a big sign, proudly declaring "Irrigation Project by World Food Programme" ... 😏

 

[VentdependenT]

The fact that alcohol is legal and pot isn't is just more of an argument towards banning alcohol (and smoking) than making weed legal.

Of course that won't happen, but instead of adding another legal drug that impairs the masses, we should be trying to limit things that are even more harmful.

Keeping pot illegal just burdens our prisons and legal system. Its not like its difficult for anyone to get weed now despite its status as an illegal substance. Its illegal because of politics. Period.

Our social culture kills people. America is violent. Im not against it, its just how it is.

Cigarettes kill more than any other legalized drug. Lobbyists.

Superbowl = Bud Light. Go Bud Light! Ahh marketing, insidious and yet so effective.

 

[VentdependenT]

I've got several

ARTSY RIGHT BRAINED FRIENDS

who are

WAKE-N-BAKERS.

What's a WAKE-N-BAKER?

It's a dude that wakes up in the morning and the first thing he does is

FIRE UP A BLUNT

said dude continues said ritual throughout the day

THEY AWAKE AND

GET BAKED

CUTTING EDGE, ARTISTIC DUDES MAN.

Look at the music industry...literally

RIDDEN BY

WAKE-AND-BAKERS

DAVE MATTHEWS.

BRANDON BOYD.

Do those names ring a bell?

Dude, SERIOUSLY?

YOU THINK POT IS BAD??

(btw are you writing this while drinking a Corona or a Bud Lite or an Abita Amber?)

You wanna talk about

HYPOCRISY?

ALCOHOL IS LEGAL.

POT IS NOT.

WOW.

I could go on and on about alcohol morbidities both in the physical and emotional realm and how weed doesn't share said morbidities but that's a completely different thread

Jet I agree about music. Music would blow without the influence of drugs. I am not for or against drugs. I am against stupidity and blind belief that an all controlling government is safe and in our best interest.

 

[Ronin786]

Keeping pot illegal just burdens our prisons and legal system. Its not like its difficult for anyone to get weed now despite its status as an illegal substance. Its illegal because of politics. Period.

Our social culture kills people. America is violent. Im not against it, its just how it is.

Cigarettes kill more than any other legalized drug. Lobbyists.

Superbowl = Bud Light. Go Bud Light! Ahh marketing, insidious and yet so effective.

I totally understand the ridiculous costs associated with weed being illegal. I just think the whole "alcohol is more dangerous" argument is more of a boon to doing something about alcohol than doing something about weed.

Like you put it, people are going to get weed regardless, so if you're not going to totally shut it down then stop making it such a burden on the country's resources.

 

[deleted126335]

I've got several

ARTSY RIGHT BRAINED FRIENDS

who are

WAKE-N-BAKERS.

What's a WAKE-N-BAKER?

It's a dude that wakes up in the morning and the first thing he does is

FIRE UP A BLUNT

said dude continues said ritual throughout the day

THEY AWAKE AND

GET BAKED

CUTTING EDGE, ARTISTIC DUDES MAN.

Look at the music industry...literally

RIDDEN BY

WAKE-AND-BAKERS

DAVE MATTHEWS.

BRANDON BOYD.

Do those names ring a bell?

Dude, SERIOUSLY?

YOU THINK POT IS BAD??

(btw are you writing this while drinking a Corona or a Bud Lite or an Abita Amber?)

You wanna talk about

HYPOCRISY?

ALCOHOL IS LEGAL.

POT IS NOT.

WOW.

I could go on and on about alcohol morbidities both in the physical and emotional realm and how weed doesn't share said morbidities but that's a completely different thread

For every creative artistic dude out there that describes, there are alot of dudes that do very little but hang out and smoke and don't do much anything else. Not sure that weed is a gateway drug, agree that filling prisons with pot smokers is wrong, Agree that alcohol has caused much more harm than weed. But I really think that it is a gateway to doing little to nothing with your life-not for everyone who smokes...but for lots of people.

 

[NOsaintsfan]

I think the crux of the whole issue is behind the idea that we can legislate personal behavior. Meaning that its very difficult to tell people what they can and cannot do in regard to themselves.

Cocaine/Heroine/Meth ect. are all illegal and theirs no hard evidence that their use has dropped at all over the last 30 yrs or so. Sure one drug may have gotten more popular or less popular but people still use them, and their illegal. My point is the law as a whole isn't very effective.

On a related note I live in Colorado and weed will be completely legal for retail sale in Jan. 2014. That means that Denver will become the American Amsterdam.

Yep unless a law is changed between then and now a person showing ID over 21 yrs of age will be able to walk into a store and buy marijuana and smoke it, legally. Their working on a legal THC limit test to enforce driving while intoxicated laws and it will be taxed at a fairly steep rate.

Do you guys realize the implication of that?

This will be a billion dollar industry overnight! I'm not kidding! Amsterdam makes big money on weed tourism and soon Colorado will also.

The thing with that is think about how government works. If Colorado starts bringing in big tax dollars due to marijuana then its going to be very difficult to take it away.

I would love to get into the business now and I think now is the time to do it. No I don't smoke pot but I feel like its going to explode here.

Anyway, just something to ponder.

 

[Trisomy13]

I've got several

ARTSY RIGHT BRAINED FRIENDS

DAVE MATTHEWS.

BRANDON BOYD.

Do those names ring a bell?

Dude, SERIOUSLY?





Jesus christ if weed is to blame for that audio-turd named Dave Matthews then by all means ban it forever. What a frat-house hack.



And musical tastes aside, there are more grey areas than black and white when it comes to the drug war in general or pot in particular. I spent a good bit of time in my pre-medicine career working in public health, working with active and former drug users - pot, booze, heroin, you name it. Prior to that career and in college I spent a decent amount of time doing um, field work in the area... Is weed evil? No. Is weed perfectly safe? No. Is it a gateway drug? Not necessarily, and it's a multi-factorial situation that springs you from nothing to weed to whatever else you are buying when your dealer starts selling. I've sat and spoken with more than a few heroin users who told me how they got hooked and it was rarely "well I was drinking a Bud and then Joe said hey let's do heroin". I could go on. However I would run the risk of being confronted with 84pt bold font if Jet doesn't agree with me. 😉

For those interested in a quick read about how the drug war got started, how weed became entangled and labeled a "narcotic" like opium and heroin, and what we can potentially do to turn things around, I strongly recommend picking up and reading "Drug Crazy" by Mike Gray. It's cheap on Amazon.

 

[risnwb]

The hospital where I'm doing residency has a "zero tolerance" policy for ILLEGAL drugs. You get drug tested and test positive for marijuana, you are OUT. Period. You abuse fentanyl and test positive for that, you go to rehab... and maybe even get your job back.... Hummmm

 

[Surfer]

ENTIRE ANESTHESIA RESIDENCY ON WEEKENDS

THREE WEEKENDS OUT OF FOUR

FOR THREE YEARS I was a Staff ER doc at a busy place and

WEED DIDN'T EVEN PLAY A

MINOR PART

IN THE ACCIDENTS I SAW


It's one or the other:

1) You live in Amsterdam

2) You don't know what you're talking about.

I COMPLETELY DISAGREE WITH YOU[/SIZE][/B]

Seriously?? Okay, here ya go. this took me about 2 seconds but reflects what i saw on a nightly basis:

The national highway traffic safety administration (NHTSA) did a study and found that Marijuana is the illicit drug used most often (70%) by drivers who drove after drug use and is a
major factor why motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death for American young
people (NHTSA, 2000)

"26.9% of seriously injured drivers tested positive for marijuana."

http://www.drugfreecalifornia.org/PDF/trafficaccidents.pdf

Come on Jet, are you really that blind or stupid or both?? the NHTSA is a traffic safety group, not an anti-drug group. they are pretty non-partisan. they say over a quarter of all severely injured motorists have weed in their systems.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/08...a-in-crash-that-killed-retired-music-teacher/

http://www.kptv.com/story/20368360/driver-charged-with-dui-marijuana-after-deadly-crash-in-vancouver

http://www.suntimes.com/news/crime/...n-crash-that-killed-8-year-old-in-skokie.html

Here's one that killed 2 teens and critically injured several more: http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Teen-Racing-Crash-Kills-Two-Injures-Several--146261365.html

Seriously, Anybody who thinks Pot doesn't kill is high.

 

[G0S2]

It is also known that most people who crash who test positive for marijuana are also intoxicated. From those 26% I guarantee many were also drunk.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/norm-stamper/420-thoughts-on-pot-vs-al_b_188627.html

 

[Pooh & Annie]

I used to be 100% in favor of legalizing. We spend WAY too much money on policing pot use, and I would effen LOVE to put these @ssholes in Mexico out of business. It could also mean a lot of revenue in taxes and in state regulated sales. Plus I'm a very strong believer in to each his own.

Now I'm not so sure. Data shows that pot users are more likely to be medically non-compliant and to abuse prescription meds. I also strongly believe that pot IS a gateway drug. As an illegal drug it has a "taboo" quality to it, and once this taboo is breached, to some kids all bets are off. If you talk to heavy drug addicts, the VAST MAJORITY of them will tell you they started out with alcohol and/or pot, THEN moved on to harder drugs.

 

[dhb]

I also strongly believe that pot IS a gateway drug.
If you talk to heavy drug addicts, the VAST MAJORITY of them will tell you they started out with alcohol and/or pot, THEN moved on to harder drugs.

If crack was easier to obtain / cheaper than beer those addicts would have skipped the alcohol/pot.

 

[PonyUp]

Seriously?? Okay, here ya go. this took me about 2 seconds but reflects what i saw on a nightly basis:

The national highway traffic safety administration (NHTSA) did a study and found that Marijuana is the illicit drug used most often (70%) by drivers who drove after drug use and is a
major factor why motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death for American young
people (NHTSA, 2000)

"26.9% of seriously injured drivers tested positive for marijuana."

http://www.drugfreecalifornia.org/PDF/trafficaccidents.pdf

Come on Jet, are you really that blind or stupid or both?? the NHTSA is a traffic safety group, not an anti-drug group. they are pretty non-partisan. they say over a quarter of all severely injured motorists have weed in their systems.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/08...a-in-crash-that-killed-retired-music-teacher/

http://www.kptv.com/story/20368360/driver-charged-with-dui-marijuana-after-deadly-crash-in-vancouver

http://www.suntimes.com/news/crime/...n-crash-that-killed-8-year-old-in-skokie.html

Here's one that killed 2 teens and critically injured several more: http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Teen-Racing-Crash-Kills-Two-Injures-Several--146261365.html

Seriously, Anybody who thinks Pot doesn't kill is high.

You hit the nail on the head.

I usually agree with Jet, but not in this instance.

To me inebriation is inebriation however one achieves it. It doesn't matter whether you're drunk or high, or whether either is legal or illegal. The ends are the same [as you've shown with your evidence].

I'm in favor of legalizing it, but I also think that people that think it's benign are ******ed. There will be very real consequences to its legalization and of course there will be subsequent push-back.

 

[Pooh & Annie]

I doubt it. Where crack is endemic they get it real cheap and easy to start out. I bet almost all of those people would say they smoked weed before.

 

[Dwindlin]

Having been on the "front lines" of our "war on drugs" my opinion is legalize it all. All the criminalization of sale/use has done is cost money and lives of police officers without a shred of benefit.

You want to inject pure heroin into your eyeball? Fantastic, god speed.

The argument that pot/alcohol/insert-random-drug-here leads to other problems while true is moot. Those "other" problems are already illegal and criminalization of sale/use doesn't affect the rates that other **** happens.

 

[pgg]

Education and opportunity, not prohibition, are what might help people avoid making bad decisions and hurting themselves. Criminalization and incarceration don't educate - they don't even deter very well - and the money and effort we spend in those areas has an opportunity cost.

Even in a perfect world, there's a floor to the amount of poverty and human suffering that will exist. There will always be people who throw away their potential for the quick fix of a crime to get rich quick, a drug to feel good quick.

Some people are just screwups, and in the end you can't save people from themselves. There comes a point at which society's efforts to fix people becomes counterproductive and oppressive. The dirty little secret of freedom is that ultimately only you can be responsible for your success and happiness, and you're on your own.

As Jefferson said, "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."

Drug prohibition has become pretty inconvenient for the rest of us. It should end.

 

[Pooh & Annie]

The argument that pot/alcohol/insert-random-drug-here leads to other problems while true is moot. Those "other" problems are already illegal and criminalization of sale/use doesn't affect the rates that other **** happens.

I'm sure you're aware of the ridiculously high percentage of non-drug related crimes commited by people with drugs in their system. IF legalizing hard drugs leads to higher drug use (which I believe it will), then we'll probably see a rise in non-drug related crime (including violent crime).

 

[Substance]

For a country with such a hardline philosophy on personal freedom, the USA has an awful lot of severe drug laws.

Weed is not entirely harmless, what with the clouded judgment, smoke inhalation, and chronic nausea and all that. I do agree that it is overall far less harmful than alcohol, and on about the same level as tobacco.

The laws are a bit counterintuitive given the relative harmful effects of it. Perhaps its more of an attack on hippie or ghetto culture than on the societal and health effects of the drug itself.

If you want to talk good music, LSD is the drug of choice. Weed's got nothing on that. Look at the Beatles. They wrote garbage until they tripped on acid.

 

[Dwindlin]

I'm sure you're aware of the ridiculously high percentage of non-drug related crimes commited by people with drugs in their system. IF legalizing hard drugs leads to higher drug use (which I believe it will), then we'll probably see a rise in non-drug related crime (including violent crime).

And I would argue you're wrong. For the most part people who are criminals are criminals. You don't hear about the people who are out there doing all sorts of drugs and not committing crimes because they don't bother anybody else. And I assure you that group of people far, far out number the former.

 

[Dwindlin]

And just to preempt any "prove it" requests in regards to my last post, I can't. Only thing I have is my experience (10 years as a FF/Medic/Cop). Turns out most people who do drugs lie about it when people ask about it (shocker right?) making actual drug use statistics grossly under estimated.

 

[Pooh & Annie]

And I would argue you're wrong. For the most part people who are criminals are criminals. You don't hear about the people who are out there doing all sorts of drugs and not committing crimes because they don't bother anybody else. And I assure you that group of people far, far out number the former.

I will stipulate that not all drug users commit other crimes. Will you stipulate that people who don't commit crimes while sober are MORE likely to do something illegal while on powerful simpathomimetics, dissociatives, narcotics etc..? (Including steal or rob to get more?)

 

[Pooh & Annie]

Also, I would hate to be an employer in a community where all these drugs are legal. Impairment at work is already a problem for many businesses. If we make it ok to do whatever drug you want LEGALLY on your own time, I guarantee we will lose billions/trillions in productivity. I am NOT saying that everyone will become drug addicts. Most won't. But if people can start buying their Oxys and benzos at the corner store, we will see LOTS more abuse related problems.

 

[Pooh & Annie]

One more ramble... People addicted to drugs aren't merely victims of bad genes. There are MILLIONS of people out there at genetic risk who will NEVER become addicts because their socioeconomic situation helps prevent that progression. That includes family structure, drug availability, social circle, education, etc... The societal acceptance of drugs, as well as drug availability, will change significantly if drugs are legalized, particularly hard drugs. That is until/unless things go to $hit.

 

[gasattack3]

Legalize everything. Prosecute and punish abusers who commit crimes while under the influence.

I'm tired of paying for the drug war. I'm tired of the stupidity, expense, and injustice of incarcerating non-violent drug offenders. The laws only serve to turn drug-addled losers into drug-addled criminals.

This and what Jet said.

Never liked weed myself. But, spending billions per year in raiding, combating, busting, prosecuting, and incarcerating people in the weed biz is ridiculous, not to mention wasting time giving casual users a hard time.

 

[24858]

Education and opportunity, not prohibition, are what might help people avoid making bad decisions and hurting themselves. Criminalization and incarceration don't educate - they don't even deter very well - and the money and effort we spend in those areas has an opportunity cost.

Even in a perfect world, there's a floor to the amount of poverty and human suffering that will exist. There will always be people who throw away their potential for the quick fix of a crime to get rich quick, a drug to feel good quick.

Some people are just screwups, and in the end you can't save people from themselves. There comes a point at which society's efforts to fix people becomes counterproductive and oppressive. The dirty little secret of freedom is that ultimately only you can be responsible for your success and happiness, and you're on your own.

As Jefferson said, "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."

Drug prohibition has become pretty inconvenient for the rest of us. It should end.

very well said

 

[imfrankie]

"Is Dave there?"

 

[repititionition]

This is a reasonably good baiting; I'll rise to it:

i have several close friends who work in law enforcement along our southern border. they get quite upset when people start talking nonsense about weed saying its a non issue. they laugh when people say legalizing it will somehow put the drug lords down south out of business. its a violent industry and it will only open new markets.

THIS IS SO TRUE! We so often see the corporate boards of legally regulated alcohol brewing/distilling companies ordering a dozen people decapitated and left by the side of the road!

Bringing marijuana production and distribution under government regulation similar to that of alcohol would only increase this type of needless violence.

/sarcasm

Wait - none of that is true. Violence arising from drug production and distribution is a consequence of the fact that it is an effective and cheap method of gaining market share in the underground economy. Those markets that are transparent and regulated use methods like advertising (chicks in bikinis seems to be a popular tactic) and sports sponsorships.

To recap:

Regulated: chicks in bikinis, TV ads
Unregulated: guns, machetes, huge vats of acid

 

[repititionition]

And I would argue you're wrong. For the most part people who are criminals are criminals. You don't hear about the people who are out there doing all sorts of drugs and not committing crimes because they don't bother anybody else. And I assure you that group of people far, far out number the former.

Exactly. This place where most adults use drugs recreationally and do not bother anyone is known as the City and County of San Francisco.

 

[jetproppilot]

Exactly. This place where most adults use drugs recreationally and do not bother anyone is known as the City and County of San Francisco.

The world is much bigger than your naive eyes have the ability to see.

 

[jetproppilot]

To recap:

Regulated: chicks in bikinis, TV ads
Unregulated: guns, machetes, huge vats of acid

Very true man.
I used steroids heavily back in the 90s when noone gave a s hit (GASP).😱

Then came the whole Mark McGuire/Sosa thing...Lance Armstrong...

and suddenly steroid use in sports was

BAD

and it's still politically incorrect but the market has corrected itself because there's money to be made by major companies via

ANABOLIC STEROID USE!!!!!

SOOOOOO,

these days it's POLITICALLY CORRECT to have

"LOW T" (low testosterone) as the media so clandestinely describes it which makes

THE USE OF ANABOLIC STEROIDS OK SINCE DRUG COMPANIES FIGURED OUT A PROFIT CAN BE MADE!!!

Commercials and everything like REP said!!

NOW it's ok to take an

ANABOLIC STEROID SUPPLEMENT if you have

"LOW T" (jesus christ...HEY MARKETERS/ADVERTISEMENT SPECIALISTS...YOU COULDN'T COME UP WITH SOMETHING BETTER THAN THE CATCH PHRASE "LOW T?" YOU GUYS SUCK. YOU MUST ALSO WRITE FOR SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE.)

THE IRONY

How the general public

DEPLORES

performance enhancing drugs in sports because the media said you should

YET I'M WATCHING TV COMMERCIALS ADVERTISING TESTOSTERONE SUPPLEMENTS FOR MEN.

MEDIA/DRUG COMPANIES=******.....THEY GRAVITATE TO WHERE THE GRAVY TRAIN EXISTS.

Tangentially getting back to the thread,

STEROIDS AND WEED ARE SIMILAR.

Back in the day, I USED PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS, AS DID MANY MANY ATHLETES.

NOONE CARED

Then we went thru a period where

YOU WERE CONSIDERED ON THE LEVEL OF A MURDERER if you did steroids.

CURRENT DAY, IT'S BEING REALIZED BY A

VAST MAJORITY

that

WEED ISN'T AS HARMFUL AS WE'VE BEEN LEAD TO BELIEVE.

Just like

ANABOLIC STEROID USE

but that's a completely different futuristic fight.

 

[pgg]

I'm sure you're aware of the ridiculously high percentage of non-drug related crimes commited by people with drugs in their system. IF legalizing hard drugs leads to higher drug use (which I believe it will), then we'll probably see a rise in non-drug related crime (including violent crime).

I disagree, though in truth there's not much actual data out there. Advocates for and against legalization often point to the Netherlands and cherrypick whichever bit of conflicting data supports their side, but the Netherlands is not the US. A lot of their ongoing drug-related problems are a consequence of drug tourism.

I think the best data we have actually comes from within the US. We can plainly see what an abject failure the drug war has been, and we saw directly the violent horrific failure that alcohol prohibition was.

Today, most petty crime committed by drug users revolves around acquiring money to get more drugs on the black market. Most violent drug crime revolves around the black market itself.

Nobody's getting rich or getting killed running moonshine any more. And nobody would be getting rich or killed running drugs these days ... at least they wouldn't, if not for prohibition.


Hypothetical "lost economic productivity" arguments are specious. Regardless of whether or not there's any merit to that idea, I'm not willing to trade liberty for the illusion of security, and I'm sure as hell not interested in even entertaining the idea of trading liberty for an odd hopeful promise of higher tax receipts or 12% more widgets produced or something. If an employee sucks because he's high, fire him.


Legalization of marijuana in Colorado is a nice start, but I worry a little that it doesn't go far enough, fast enough. I'm afraid we'll get a bit of the Netherlands Syndrome, where some new problems arise related to drug tourism - problems that wouldn't exist if marijuana was legalized nationwide all at once.


As with alcohol prohibition c. 1920s, the main costs (in money, blood, and tears) of current policy stem from the enforcement of prohibition by the authorities, the evasion of prohibition by end users, and competition within organized crime to exploit the artificial profits prohibition creates. The solution is staring us in the face, if we but have the moral courage to admit and recognize what the country admitted and recognized in 1933.

 

[Dwindlin]

i have several close friends who work in law enforcement along our southern border. they get quite upset when people start talking nonsense about weed saying its a non issue. they laugh when people say legalizing it will somehow put the drug lords down south out of business. its a violent industry and it will only open new markets.

Let them know they are in the minority of LEOs.

 

[Pooh & Annie]

Good points. The correlation between drug use and serious/violent crime is pretty clear though, and you won't find a legit study claiming otherwise. Some data show the MAJORITY of violent criminals have drugs in there system in some urban areas.

American culture/economics are so dynamic that no one knows what would happen if all drugs were legalized. Anyone who pretends they do is FOS.

Like I said earlier, I've been heavily in favor of legalizing pot for quite a while, because I do think its pretty harmless in itself. I've got more questions now than I used to though. I don't know what the results of legalizing ALL drugs would be, but I THINK it could be catastrophic. If you think you've got a welfare state now, wait til hard drugs become easily available.

And will they sell them cheaply in huge quantities? If so I think we'd be f'ed. And if not, good luck putting the cartels out of business.

 

[pgg]

Even if the majority of violent criminals have drugs in their system (sounds plausible to me, though I'm not familiar with the data) that's not evidence of a cause/effect relationship. Are they violent BECAUSE they use drugs? Or do they use drugs because they're losers who happen to also be violent? I'd bet on the latter.

And you're right, we won't know the result of legalization until it actually happens. But we do know that this 40-something year War On Drugs experiment has failed in truly spectacular form.

I realize that legalization of everything is probably just another one of my libertarian pipe dreams 🙂 but marijuana would be a good start.

 

[pgg]

i have several close friends who work in law enforcement along our southern border. they get quite upset when people start talking nonsense about weed saying its a non issue. they laugh when people say legalizing it will somehow put the drug lords down south out of business. its a violent industry and it will only open new markets.

Missed this comment earlier.

While the input of law enforcement has some value with regard to facts and data, letting LEOs set domestic policy is about as good idea as letting the military set foreign policy.


There are probably 100 active duty military personnel, from about E3 to O6 rank, within 100 feet of me at this moment, and every one has both a strong opinion and first-hand experience with the Afghan war. That doesn't mean any of them (or me) should be making national security decisions. Or that our opinions on the matter should carry particular weight compared to the will of the people as expressed via elections.

 

[imfrankie]

I have no issue if someone wants to use anabolics; but I do have an issue with cheating. Cheater's are not winners, by definition.

 

[Frank Rizzo]

I don't know... Craig and Smokey almost got dealt wit by smoking Big Worm's weed. Playing with my money is like playing with my emotions!!!

Clip NSFW

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yteMOI27YDo[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Mman]

legalize it, tax the hell out of it, help balance the budget and begin to pay down the debt



I see no other way to handle it.