Smoking weed

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The world is much bigger than your naive eyes have the ability to see.

To be clear, the statement replied to above was an (perhaps overly cute) endorsement of San Francisco's approaches to drug regulation and real treatment options for addicts and abusers. I realize that there are other areas out there with similarly admirable aims and positive outcomes.
 
legalize it, tax the hell out of it, help balance the budget and begin to pay down the debt

I see no other way to handle it.

This is obviously the rational approach.

The problem is that entrenched industries don't much like disruption. While anyone can easily grow a few plants in their home, not many americans have the space/time/knowledge to set up a home brewery (I know there are some on this board, however) or still.

Thus, legalization and full normalization of marijuana in this country poses a (Jet, please excuse my lack of 88pt font) MAJOR BIG THREAT TO THE ALCOHOL INDUSTRY.

Big, profitable industries do not like competition and disruption. I'd bet strongly that "big alcohol" (I just coined that phrase) lobbies heavily to keep marijuana illegal.

Here's a classic American industry disruption story:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy
 
To be clear, the statement replied to above was an (perhaps overly cute) endorsement of San Francisco's approaches to drug regulation and real treatment options for addicts and abusers. I realize that there are other areas out there with similarly admirable aims and positive outcomes.

Well said and understood.
 
This is obviously the rational approach.

The problem is that entrenched industries don't much like disruption. While anyone can easily grow a few plants in their home, not many americans have the space/time/knowledge to set up a home brewery (I know there are some on this board, however) or still.

Thus, legalization and full normalization of marijuana in this country poses a (Jet, please excuse my lack of 88pt font) MAJOR BIG THREAT TO THE ALCOHOL INDUSTRY.

Big, profitable industries do not like competition and disruption. I'd bet strongly that "big alcohol" (I just coined that phrase) lobbies heavily to keep marijuana illegal.

Here's a classic American industry disruption story:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy



I see very little competition with alcohol by a legal marijuana industry. There just aren't a bunch of people out there wishing it was legal so they could smoke it. There are billions and billions of dollars a year flowing to drug dealers and gangs locally and cartels internationally from the use of marijuana. Almost all that money is essentially a black market tax because the product is so difficult to procure. If it was legal, you could simply shift the money flowing to the black market mostly into a tax flowing to the federal government and the drug users would end up paying the same price or even less than before.

I'm not a fan of the government and I'm not a fan of new taxes, but this seems like an easy choice to me.
 
"
I see very little competition with alcohol by a legal marijuana industry. There just aren't a bunch of people out there wishing it was legal so they could smoke it. There are billions and billions of dollars a year flowing to drug dealers and gangs locally and cartels internationally from the use of marijuana. Almost all that money is essentially a black market tax because the product is so difficult to procure. If it was legal, you could simply shift the money flowing to the black market mostly into a tax flowing to the federal government and the drug users would end up paying the same price or even less than before.

I'm not a fan of the government and I'm not a fan of new taxes, but this seems like an easy choice to me. "


I agree with the above especially about the part on the little competition for alcohol because lets be real, current laws really don't stop anyone from using marijuana. If people want to smoke the stuff currently then they already do.

If pot were legal then I'm not so sure we would see use "explode" the sales would be simply be traceable and taxable so we would get a true idea for the size of the market/industry. In my opinion use has already "exploded'' but its sales are black-market so any attempt to define the overall consumption and market size are speculation.
 
"
I agree with the above especially about the part on the little competition for alcohol because lets be real, current laws really don't stop anyone from using marijuana. If people want to smoke the stuff currently then they already do.

Actually, I do know people who have admitted that a little smoke on the weekends would be welcome; but do not indulge because there is not a legal way to obtain it. If caught, they would face criminal charges, which would cost them money, end their jobs, and for a couple, their careers would be history. So, they don't indulge. There are more out there than anyone will readily admit to. kinda like how guys won't admit to liking bigger women to their friends!
 
I see very little competition with alcohol by a legal marijuana industry. There just aren't a bunch of people out there wishing it was legal so they could smoke it. There are billions and billions of dollars a year flowing to drug dealers and gangs locally and cartels internationally from the use of marijuana. Almost all that money is essentially a black market tax because the product is so difficult to procure. If it was legal, you could simply shift the money flowing to the black market mostly into a tax flowing to the federal government and the drug users would end up paying the same price or even less than before.

I'm not a fan of the government and I'm not a fan of new taxes, but this seems like an easy choice to me.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/05/22/185832919/go-east-young-marijuana-dealer

You have a guy who can grow and sell to his hearts content in California, yet he moves to New York because Cali is not profitable with medical marijuana.

This is just a report on one drug dealer so it is hard to extrapolate. I still feel this supports legalization as a strong economic drive against the black market and all of its associated social harm.
 
http://www.11alive.com/News/Odd/256...e.1:object_type_name.website&odyssey=obinsite



PORT ST. LUCIE, Fla. -- A teenager is recovering after police say he shot himself in the penis and testicle while cleaning a gun he just bought.

It happened Thursday morning at a home on the 200 block of Verada Street in Port St. Lucie.

Police say 18-year-old Michael Smeriglio first lied to police saying someone shot him while he was walking down the street. After being questioned by police he admitted to accidentally doing it himself.

Doctors say the bullet went through his penis, his left testicle and then lodged itself in his thigh.

Smeriglio told police he bought the gun last month at a party.

While police were investigating at the home where it happened, they discovered marijuana in the house. That led to the arrest of the homeowner Joseph Lamar James, 22, on drug charges.
 
http://www.11alive.com/News/Odd/256...e.1:object_type_name.website&odyssey=obinsite



PORT ST. LUCIE, Fla. -- A teenager is recovering after police say he shot himself in the penis and testicle while cleaning a gun he just bought.

It happened Thursday morning at a home on the 200 block of Verada Street in Port St. Lucie.

Police say 18-year-old Michael Smeriglio first lied to police saying someone shot him while he was walking down the street. After being questioned by police he admitted to accidentally doing it himself.

Doctors say the bullet went through his penis, his left testicle and then lodged itself in his thigh.

Smeriglio told police he bought the gun last month at a party.

While police were investigating at the home where it happened, they discovered marijuana in the house. That led to the arrest of the homeowner Joseph Lamar James, 22, on drug charges.

😎 While the dude may have shot himself in the WANG, if he were drunk he may have shot someone else in the wang.

As to the other recent posts. Look at the drug VIOLENCE coming out of Mexico. All because of the PREMIUM profits available due to drugs being illegal. Not suggesting opening it all up, but for MJ it's ridiculous.

The violence in Mexico is absolutely out of control, with regard to the drug cartels.
 
As Americans we struggle with the cocept of moderation. For every person that is a responsible gun owner/casual pot smoker/ social drinker/ runs a profitable business/ enjoys a can of soda and a burger every once in a while, there are absolute lunatics and criminals that ruin fun stuff and cheat the system. We have a problem with fanaticism and greed, not drugs. These flaws are deep in our culture and part of our "DNA" as Americans.
 
We have a problem with fanaticism and greed, not drugs. These flaws are deep in our culture and part of our "DNA" as Americans.

Wow. Great thoughts. Though we do have a problem with drugs.

It's kind of a joke, people arguing about stuff they don't have much experience with. This I worked at a community shelter during college stuff is a joke.

The same tendencies leading one to try weed are the same tendencies leading one to try harder drugs. The overwhelming majority of people who first smoke weed drank a beer and smoked a cigarette at least some time before.
 
Weed is not entirely harmless, what with the clouded judgment, smoke inhalation, and chronic nausea and all that.

For the record, cannabis is generally regarded as an effective treatment for nausea, not a cause of it.

Cheers,
UBCmed09
 
very true man.
i used steroids heavily back in the 90s when noone gave a s hit (gasp).😱

then came the whole mark mcguire/sosa thing...lance armstrong...

and suddenly steroid use in sports was

bad

and it's still politically incorrect but the market has corrected itself because there's money to be made by major companies via

anabolic steroid use!!!!!

soooooo,

these days it's politically correct to have

"low t" (low testosterone) as the media so clandestinely describes it which makes

the use of anabolic steroids ok since drug companies figured out a profit can be made!!!

commercials and everything like rep said!!

now it's ok to take an

anabolic steroid supplement if you have

"low t" (jesus christ...hey marketers/advertisement specialists...you couldn't come up with something better than the catch phrase "low t?" you guys suck. You must also write for saturday night live.)

the irony

how the general public

deplores

performance enhancing drugs in sports because the media said you should

yet i'm watching tv commercials advertising testosterone supplements for men.

media/drug companies=******.....they gravitate to where the gravy train exists.

tangentially getting back to the thread,

steroids and weed are similar.

back in the day, i used performance enhancing drugs, as did many many athletes.

noone cared

then we went thru a period where

you were considered on the level of a murderer if you did steroids.

current day, it's being realized by a

vast majority


that

weed isn't as harmful as we've been lead to believe.

just like

anabolic steroid use

but that's a completely different futuristic fight.

can you please write a little bigger because we can't read your small type.

Only 3 kinds of people type oversized on a regular basis: idiots, little children, and lame poet-wannabes.
 
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can you please write a little bigger because we can't read your small type.

Only 3 kinds of people type oversized on a regular basis: Idiots, little children, and lame poet-wannabes.

lol
 
The same tendencies leading one to try weed are the same tendencies leading one to try harder drugs. The overwhelming majority of people who first smoke weed drank a beer and smoked a cigarette at least some time before.

First sentence: marijuana is not equivalent to other currently legal "recreational" drugs (alcohol)

Second sentence: marijuana and beer and are equivalent

I'm unclear which represents your position.

---

It was said above (and I'm just too lazy to go quote it) that there aren't many people who don't currently use marijuana who would, were it legal.

In the NEAR term, you're more or less correct, BUT - if we legalized marijuana trade and consumption, an enormous stigma of its use (illegality) would be removed. Marijuana would slowly become culturally mainstreamed, and over time there would be a (large, I believe) population of consumers that would see the two as substitute goods... "I could open a bottle of wine tonight or me and my wife could smoke a joint" - and both would be seen as the same class of normal adult activity. The incremental market is enormous, but it would take years/decades to be realized.
 
In the NEAR term, you're more or less correct, BUT - if we legalized marijuana trade and consumption, an enormous stigma of its use (illegality) would be removed. Marijuana would slowly become culturally mainstreamed, and over time there would be a (large, I believe) population of consumers that would see the two as substitute goods... "I could open a bottle of wine tonight or me and my wife could smoke a joint" - and both would be seen as the same class of normal adult activity.

I can't tell if you're arguing that this is would be a bad thing, or not. The "BUT" in your statement suggests that you think this is an undesirable outcome.

If that's what you think can you explain why we should be concerned if some guy and his wife with amorous in-home intentions smoke a joint instead of drinking wine?
 
The government doesn't make things legal, it makes things illegal and should have to justify a public interest that is great enough to justify limiting your right to make up your own damn mind.
There is no legitimate public interest in forbiding marijuana use in the privacy of your own home.

There are probably lots of people (like me) who would use marijuana and drink alcohol less if it were legal. I never ever smoke because I need my job. It's really not the business of some government puritans to tell me or anyone else what to consume without a proven public interest. It's also not the business of my employer what I do when I'm not at work or on call. The only reasons alcohol is okay and marijuana is a problem are 1) a poorly thought out, unjustified ban and 2) the fact that marijuana stays detectible in your system weeks after the effects have worn off while alcohol is gone in hours.
 
I can't tell if you're arguing that this is would be a bad thing, or not. The "BUT" in your statement suggests that you think this is an undesirable outcome.

If that's what you think can you explain why we should be concerned if some guy and his wife with amorous in-home intentions smoke a joint instead of drinking wine?

Nah man, I'm 100% for full legalization of marijuana production, commerce, and consumption for all of the cogent and rational reasons you and others have nailed in the thread already.

My point was a narrow one: Someone raised the objection above (paraphrasing), "why legalize it - there would be no new consumers - people who want to use marijuana already do, regardless of legality". And my response was that with legalization comes cultural acceptance, and that with cultural acceptance, the product would see new customers (ie "regular" folks at home on a Saturday night.
 
The same tendencies leading one to try weed are the same tendencies leading one to try harder drugs. The overwhelming majority of people who first smoke weed drank a beer and smoked a cigarette at least some time before.

:uhno:
 
The same tendencies leading one to try weed are the same tendencies leading one to try harder drugs. The overwhelming majority of people who first smoke weed drank a beer and smoked a cigarette at least some time before.

To me this is obvious and irrefutable, although its also obvious that some people disagree.
 
My point was a narrow one: Someone raised the objection above (paraphrasing), "why legalize it - there would be no new consumers - people who want to use marijuana already do, regardless of legality". And my response was that with legalization comes cultural acceptance, and that with cultural acceptance, the product would see new customers (ie "regular" folks at home on a Saturday night.

This scenario might account for a small percentage of the change we'd see. The rest is unknown.
 
To me this is obvious and irrefutable, although its also obvious that some people disagree.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...ericans-in-favor-of-legalizing-marijuana?lite

This article sites a survey saying 48% of people in the USA have tried marijuana. If that's even close to accurate how come about half the people in our country don't smoke crack? After all marijuana use invariably leads to use of more serious drugs, right?

My point on the matter is that yes a certain percentage of people abuse hard drugs, become addicts and have serious life consequences as a result. For those people marijuana very possibly was a "gateway" drug, however the current legal status of marijuana didn't stop those people from becoming addicts. Certain people are predisposed to addiction and I find it hard to believe that government can stop this. What's my logic you wonder? Look at current drug addicts, did the fact that the government said drugs are illegal stop their use?

For the people who would like to possibly smoke marijuana on the weekends or whatever but don't because its illegal and wouldn't want to lose their jobs I find it highly unlikely that those individuals are all the sudden going to try marijuana (if it becomes legal) and then spiral down the road to addiction.

If your responsible enough to not use a drug that's widely available and semi-acceptable in certain parts of the country your probably responsible enough to not let your occasional marijuana use lead to heroine addiction. But you never know.

By making marijuana illegal we have created a lot of rich people. Many of whom fill up mass graves in Mexico using guns our government gave them,,,woops.
 
This article sites a survey saying 48% of people in the USA have tried marijuana. If that's even close to accurate how come about half the people in our country don't smoke crack? After all marijuana use invariably leads to use of more serious drugs, right?

You should work for FOX news with summaries like that! I don't believe you'll see any posts claiming that marijuana invariably leads to crack use.

I DO think someone predisposed to addiction is more likely to try experimenting with illegal drugs than someone NOT predisposed.

I also think that as illegal drugs become more acceptable, more people will try them, including potential addicts. The number of addicts will increase. I have no idea if it will be catastrophic or controllable, but I have no doubt that a lot of those resources going toward the "war" on drugs will have to go toward social support programs and rehabilitation. Maybe crime (non-drug crimes) will increase, and the savings to the criminal justice system won't be as big as we thought. All those criminals/potential criminals in the drug trade will still exist. Most of them aren't gonna be looking for honest work.
 
can you please write a little bigger because we can't read your small type.

Only 3 kinds of people type oversized on a regular basis: idiots, little children, and lame poet-wannabes.

Hey

premed, med student, resident and attending colleagues,

this anesthesia forum is so entertaining and so popular that a

PSYCHIATRIST

is reading our s h it!!!!😱

WELCOME TO THE SDN ANESTHESIA FORUM,

DOCTOR.

Enjoy your stay here.

See, I'm a doctor too. I'm pretty good at my craft and I enjoy sharing my professional experiences through prose. I've been doing just that since 2004.

As it turns out, us anesthesiologists are a pretty

OUTGOING PERSONALITY TYPE, STEREOTYPICALLY SPEAKING

with many outside interests so our lives are pretty cool and we interact about the other (non-medical) parts of our lives, hence me meeting you, albeit virtually, on a thread I started called

SMOKING WEED.

If you wanna lash out at me because of my writing style which includes alotta

BOLDS AND FONTS

more power to you.

I hope you stick around.

I enjoy interacting with people who are great at things I know nothing about.

Btw you'll find this area of SDN quite educational and entertaining!
 
You may be right that by making marijuana legal we will have significantly more people (maybe millions) that go on to become addicted to life altering hard drugs, who knows.

I do know that we spend billions specifically on marijuana law enforcement and that what we currently are doing isn't working, so I think that alternatives to the status quo should be explored.

Another way of thinking of it is like this.

I'm not happy with the outcomes based on expenditures in regard to marijuana. Marijuana use has increased in the recent decades, arrests and cost of imprisonment for marijuana related offenses have gone up. For me to deem our policy as effective I would like to see a decrease in use and a decrease in arrests (because less people want to use/sell marijuana).

To me the below article is a compelling reason to consider nationwide legalization. If you want to believe the numbers in the article the estimate is anywhere from 9-17% of the drug cartels income comes from marijuana. That's not insignificant. Further more that money could be put directly into the US economy. Into retail vendors pockets and into the US treasury via taxes on sales. The numbers are to big to completely dismiss.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...zation-will-affect-mexicos-cartels-in-charts/
 
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You should work for FOX news with summaries like that! I don't believe you'll see any posts claiming that marijuana invariably leads to crack use.

I DO think someone predisposed to addiction is more likely to try experimenting with illegal drugs than someone NOT predisposed.

I also think that as illegal drugs become more acceptable, more people will try them, including potential addicts. The number of addicts will increase. I have no idea if it will be catastrophic or controllable, but I have no doubt that a lot of those resources going toward the "war" on drugs will have to go toward social support programs and rehabilitation. Maybe crime (non-drug crimes) will increase, and the savings to the criminal justice system won't be as big as we thought. All those criminals/potential criminals in the drug trade will still exist. Most of them aren't gonna be looking for honest work.

So our societal decisions should be dictated by

ADDICTS?

The alcohol industry is thriving. It's HUGE economically for this country.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE that drink alcohol are not alcoholics. As a society would it be right to ban alcohol because there's a

MINUTE MINORITY

of consumers that can't handle it? The VAST MAJORITY of consumers that drink alcohol are not alcoholics. Cutting right to the point,

THE VAST MAJORITY OF WEED SMOKERS

ARE JUST THAT.

WEED SMOKERS


who enjoy a cuppla hits off a

hydroponic bowl in moderation, just like the majority of Americans enjoy alcohol in moderation, with no desire to imbibe in hard, addictive substances like cocaine, heroin, meth, etc.

Marijuana is less harmful than alcohol. It is NOT a gateway drug, and yet it is illegal.

C'MON, DUDETTE.

I WANNA SMOKE A JOINT.

Legally. 😀

And so do millions of other productive people.

I have no desire to

GATEWAY UP to cocaine, heroin, et al.🙄

Quoting Spicoli,

"ALL I NEED IS SOME TASTY WAVES,

COOL BUDS,

AND I'M FINE."
 
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I think pot probably should be legal. It has been legalized to a large extent in my state, and I'm for that. But I'm not naive and I know that it won't be all chill surfers sparking up and hitting up taco del mar after.

JPP, you can speak for yourself and the people you may know that pot isn't a gateway drug. You don't speak for the addiction medicine community, however, who would disagree.
 
I think pot probably should be legal. It has been legalized to a large extent in my state, and I'm for that. But I'm not naive and I know that it won't be all chill surfers sparking up and hitting up taco del mar after.

JPP, you can speak for yourself and the people you may know that pot isn't a gateway drug. You don't speak for the addiction medicine community, however, who would disagree.

The addiction medicine community is a

BUMP ON A PICKLE

compared to the vast majority of responsible, productive citizens who are capable of

enjoyment in moderation.

Laws should reflect that.
 
I think pot probably should be legal. It has been legalized to a large extent in my state, and I'm for that. But I'm not naive and I know that it won't be all chill surfers sparking up and hitting up taco del mar after.

JPP, you can speak for yourself and the people you may know that pot isn't a gateway drug. You don't speak for the addiction medicine community, however, who would disagree.

You may well be right that marijuana is a "gateway drug" and that, if completely legal, casual users might try harder drugs. But so what? I don't care. There will always be people who make bad decisions and squander their potential - it's the price of basic human autonomy.

Do we really want the government passing laws in an attempt to protect people from themselves? Where do you draw the line? Is Bloomberg's 16oz soda ban a good idea to protect people from weight gain?

After we ban sodas because fat people don't need the calories, maybe we should ban motorcycles because it's objectively a more dangerous means of transportation than a car, and there's a positive correlation between riding a motorcycle and joining a violent motorcycle gang. I've seen Sons of Anarchy, I know how it is.

But why stop with banning public health risk factors and gateway vices like high fructose corn syrup and Harleys? Maybe we should ban scuba diving because it's purely optional and people die doing that. Getting back to foods, we should ban peanut-containing foods at restaurants and stadiums, because lots of people have food allergies. Donuts? Ban 'em. No nutritional value there, and just think how many peanut-related crimes our police officers could investigate if they weren't donut-munching fatbodies.

Of course, it's ridiculous to think laws based on wishful thinking and nanny-state good intentions can magically make obesity, motorcycles, and anaphylaxis disappear. But no more ridiculous than thinking laws can make addiction go away.

There's a place for government involvement in public health and safety. But there's a world of difference between funding public health initiatives based on education and treatment (which work), and attempting to legislate away a problem with laws based on arbitrary moral codes (which doesn't).
 
You may well be right that marijuana is a "gateway drug" and that, if completely legal, casual users might try harder drugs. But so what? I don't care. There will always be people who make bad decisions and squander their potential - it's the price of basic human autonomy.

Do we really want the government passing laws in an attempt to protect people from themselves? Where do you draw the line? Is Bloomberg's 16oz soda ban a good idea to protect people from weight gain?

After we ban sodas because fat people don't need the calories, maybe we should ban motorcycles because it's objectively a more dangerous means of transportation than a car, and there's a positive correlation between riding a motorcycle and joining a violent motorcycle gang. I've seen Sons of Anarchy, I know how it is.

But why stop with banning public health risk factors and gateway vices like high fructose corn syrup and Harleys? Maybe we should ban scuba diving because it's purely optional and people die doing that. Getting back to foods, we should ban peanut-containing foods at restaurants and stadiums, because lots of people have food allergies. Donuts? Ban 'em. No nutritional value there, and just think how many peanut-related crimes our police officers could investigate if they weren't donut-munching fatbodies.

Of course, it's ridiculous to think laws based on wishful thinking and nanny-state good intentions can magically make obesity, motorcycles, and anaphylaxis disappear. But no more ridiculous than thinking laws can make addiction go away.

There's a place for government involvement in public health and safety. But there's a world of difference between funding public health initiatives based on education and treatment (which work), and attempting to legislate away a problem with laws based on arbitrary moral codes (which doesn't).

Dude,

YOU'RE IN THE WRONG BUSINESS MAN.

YOU COULD MAKE

MILLIONS

AS A LAWYER.


😀
 
The addiction medicine community is a

BUMP ON A PICKLE

compared to the vast majority of responsible, productive citizens who are capable of

enjoyment in moderation.

Laws should reflect that.

The majority is not vast.

In the ER you saw/treated drug toxicity, not addiction. Go check out an inpatient treatment center and see what addiction is really about. Its brutal. And see among them how many parents figured their kids were "just smoking a little weed".
 
You may well be right that marijuana is a "gateway drug" and that, if completely legal, casual users might try harder drugs. But so what? I don't care. There will always be people who make bad decisions and squander their potential - it's the price of basic human autonomy.

Do we really want the government passing laws in an attempt to protect people from themselves? Where do you draw the line? Is Bloomberg's 16oz soda ban a good idea to protect people from weight gain?

After we ban sodas because fat people don't need the calories, maybe we should ban motorcycles because it's objectively a more dangerous means of transportation than a car, and there's a positive correlation between riding a motorcycle and joining a violent motorcycle gang. I've seen Sons of Anarchy, I know how it is.

But why stop with banning public health risk factors and gateway vices like high fructose corn syrup and Harleys? Maybe we should ban scuba diving because it's purely optional and people die doing that. Getting back to foods, we should ban peanut-containing foods at restaurants and stadiums, because lots of people have food allergies. Donuts? Ban 'em. No nutritional value there, and just think how many peanut-related crimes our police officers could investigate if they weren't donut-munching fatbodies.

Of course, it's ridiculous to think laws based on wishful thinking and nanny-state good intentions can magically make obesity, motorcycles, and anaphylaxis disappear. But no more ridiculous than thinking laws can make addiction go away.

There's a place for government involvement in public health and safety. But there's a world of difference between funding public health initiatives based on education and treatment (which work), and attempting to legislate away a problem with laws based on arbitrary moral codes (which doesn't).

The government is in the business of drawing lines. I imagine drugs were thought to cross the line because with their use families and lives are consumed/destroyed, communities go from poor to apocalyptic (ie crack), babies are born with defects (if they survive), kids are neglected/abused, etc...

Is it a slippery slope to outlawing donuts or skydiving? I personally think that argument is one of the weaker ones. Yeah the government's decision to regulate this and not that is not based on 'objective' morality because 'objective' morality doesn't exist. That doesn't mean that analysis/regulation of vice/risky behavior is "arbitrary". I think historically lawmakers would argue that the cost to society/individuals was greater in communities flooded with drugs than in those flooded with sugary products.
 
The government is in the business of drawing lines. I imagine drugs were thought to cross the line because with their use families and lives are consumed/destroyed, communities go from poor to apocalyptic (ie crack), babies are born with defects (if they survive), kids are neglected/abused, etc...

Is it a slippery slope to outlawing donuts or skydiving? I personally think that argument is one of the weaker ones. Yeah the government's decision to regulate this and not that is not based on 'objective' morality because 'objective' morality doesn't exist. That doesn't mean that analysis/regulation of vice/risky behavior is "arbitrary". I think historically lawmakers would argue that the cost to society/individuals was greater in communities flooded with drugs than in those flooded with sugary products.

I hope it's clear that much of my post is tongue in cheek 🙂 but I am totally serious in my opposition to nanny-state enforcement of drug laws. And not merely because I view it as an outright infringement on all human beings' inherent right to live their lives as well or as poorly as they choose, but also because the collateral damage of these laws to everyone else is outrageous and unacceptable.

I think reasonable people can disagree, philosophically, on where the government's compelling interest in regulating something should begin and end. There is merit to arguing, as you do, that it is the government's business and purpose to reduce the social cost and morbidity of certain behaviors.

And surely, detering and punishing various undesirable acts has played a role in the past.

Where this argument falls apart with prohibition, however, is in the real world efficacy of those policies, and unintended consequences. Most of the social harm related to drug use is NOT the individual users' poor health or lost productivity, but rather a direct consequence of prohibition itself:
- enforcement costs paid by everyone
- incarceration costs suffered by perpetrators of crimes that don't create 3rd party victims (heavily skewed toward minorities and the poor BTW)
- violence related to the lucrative black market

Even entirely setting aside the moral issues, I'm convinced that ending prohibition is the correct realpolitik solution.


Short version:
1) Morally, prohibition itself is questionable. I like this quote: "In any free society, the conflict between social conformity and individual Liberty is permanent, unsolvable, and necessary." (Kathleen Norris) This ongoing conflict doesn't benefit from government involvement.

2) Practically, prohibition itself has failed to meet its stated goals in truly spectacular fashion. Beyond its failure, it has a high cost, and direct/indirect harms associated with it.

So why are we still doing it?
 
The majority is not vast.

In the ER you saw/treated drug toxicity, not addiction. Go check out an inpatient treatment center and see what addiction is really about. Its brutal. And see among them how many parents figured their kids were "just smoking a little weed".

How many hard core, strung out marijuana addicts do you see?
Zero.

Your argument is entirely the bullshiz gateway drug argument.
 
How many hard core, strung out marijuana addicts do you see?
Zero.

Your argument is entirely the bullshiz gateway drug argument.

You're right. I'm pro legalization because I think for the most part, pot in itself is minimally harmful. But where I was vehemently pro in the past, I'm a little less so now.

Take your gateway argument up with the addiction specialists. I'm just going by what they say, plus a little real world experience on my part.
 
I hope it's clear that much of my post is tongue in cheek 🙂 but I am totally serious in my opposition to nanny-state enforcement of drug laws. And not merely because I view it as an outright infringement on all human beings' inherent right to live their lives as well or as poorly as they choose, but also because the collateral damage of these laws to everyone else is outrageous and unacceptable.

I think reasonable people can disagree, philosophically, on where the government's compelling interest in regulating something should begin and end. There is merit to arguing, as you do, that it is the government's business and purpose to reduce the social cost and morbidity of certain behaviors.

And surely, detering and punishing various undesirable acts has played a role in the past.

Where this argument falls apart with prohibition, however, is in the real world efficacy of those policies, and unintended consequences. Most of the social harm related to drug use is NOT the individual users' poor health or lost productivity, but rather a direct consequence of prohibition itself:
- enforcement costs paid by everyone
- incarceration costs suffered by perpetrators of crimes that don't create 3rd party victims (heavily skewed toward minorities and the poor BTW)
- violence related to the lucrative black market

Even entirely setting aside the moral issues, I'm convinced that ending prohibition is the correct realpolitik solution.


Short version:
1) Morally, prohibition itself is questionable. I like this quote: "In any free society, the conflict between social conformity and individual Liberty is permanent, unsolvable, and necessary." (Kathleen Norris) This ongoing conflict doesn't benefit from government involvement.

2) Practically, prohibition itself has failed to meet its stated goals in truly spectacular fashion. Beyond its failure, it has a high cost, and direct/indirect harms associated with it.

So why are we still doing it?

You might be right. I don't know what would really happen with broadened legalization. I would love to see organized crime based on the drug trade disappear. I'd love to quit paying for imprisoned drug users. I'd like to see the failed war on drugs end already. It's a joke. We should be spending that money on finding out the best way to educate and deter kids from using drugs and minimizing adult drug use.

To a large extent I'm just playing devil's advocate. But I do recognize that the personal/societal cost of drug addiction is high, and changes in policy may or may not affect addiction rates.

Some other questions:
If drugs are legal, are they plentiful and cheap? If not a black market will still exist and the cartels may still be in business.
Will the FDA be standardizing purity/dosing? That will be interesting.
Will employers such as hospitals, transportation services (ie airlines), etc. have the right to tell their employees they can't use drugs?
There are plenty of others
 
A definite in my book is legalization of prostitution. Regulate it and let consenting adults do their thing. I don't know (but don't think) that it would have a negative societal impact.
 
A definite in my book is legalization of prostitution. Regulate it and let consenting adults do their thing. I don't know (but don't think) that it would have a negative societal impact.

I wonder if legalizing prostitution would reduce the criminal element that much. A lot of it is non-consensual. Lots of trafficking, abuse, and exploitation. In particular, there's a market for underage prostitution that obviously can't be legalized, has never been consensual, and won't just go away. I wonder if legalization in general would make it easier for the trafficking blend into the background.

I do favor legalizing prostitution when adults are involved, for all the same reasons as relate to drugs, but there are definitely some issues unique to prostitution that don't really apply to other vice crimes.
 
Some other questions:
If drugs are legal, are they plentiful and cheap? If not a black market will still exist and the cartels may still be in business.
Sure, I imagine they'd be as plentiful and cheap as cigarettes and beer are today.

I don't see Philip Morris being so afraid to tarnish their wholesome family image that they wouldn't get into the THC business. But if they don't someone will.

Will the FDA be standardizing purity/dosing? That will be interesting.

The FDA doesn't really get involved with home brewers. I don't see a need for them to be involved with people growing marijuana for personal use.

For commercial production, there would have to be standards, accurate labels, basic truth-in-advertising. (Actually, this lack of standardization is one of the several reasons I think the entire concept of "medical marijuana" is absolute crap. I sort of admire the "medical marijuana" end-run around stupid prohibition laws, but the people who pretend smoking pot is medicine are equally stupid.)

As for "standardization", maybe not rigidly. EtOH content of beer/wine/spirits isn't "standardized" (beyond ranges for various categories) so much as."truth in labeling" is enforced. That would be sufficient.

Will employers such as hospitals, transportation services (ie airlines), etc. have the right to tell their employees they can't use drugs?

I would say 'of course' ... though this is sort of an interesting line of inquiry.

Presently we allow businesses to regulate employees' use of legal intoxicants like alcohol, to an extent, aka "you can't work while drunk or too hungover to function" - there's no reason this can't work for other drugs.

If an employer wants to prohibit drug use on AND off the job, and conduct drug testing ... they ought to be able to do so. If the employee doesn't like it, he can work elsewhere. Drug users shouldn't be a protected class. Chick-fil-A can't fire black people for being black, but they ought to be able to fire methheads for being squirrelly.

Where public safety is involved (eg hospitals, airlines, law enforcement), the government should be able to regulate, prohibit, and punish use which results in impaired on-the-job performance. This would get interesting with regard to drugs that don't have an off switch. A meth addict who ISN'T currently intoxicated, for example, may well be so strung out desperate for a fix that guiding 747s over LAX isn't quite safe. But even this is solvable - if the current rule is "no booze within 8 hours of an ATC shift" there's no reason there couldn't be a "no meth within 14 days of an ATC shift" rule.
 
Sure, I imagine they'd be as plentiful and cheap as cigarettes and beer are today.

I don't see Philip Morris being so afraid to tarnish their wholesome family image that they wouldn't get into the THC business. But if they don't someone will.



The FDA doesn't really get involved with home brewers. I don't see a need for them to be involved with people growing marijuana for personal use.

For commercial production, there would have to be standards, accurate labels, basic truth-in-advertising. (Actually, this lack of standardization is one of the several reasons I think the entire concept of "medical marijuana" is absolute crap. I sort of admire the "medical marijuana" end-run around stupid prohibition laws, but the people who pretend smoking pot is medicine are equally stupid.)

As for "standardization", maybe not rigidly. EtOH content of beer/wine/spirits isn't "standardized" (beyond ranges for various categories) so much as."truth in labeling" is enforced. That would be sufficient.



I would say 'of course' ... though this is sort of an interesting line of inquiry.

Presently we allow businesses to regulate employees' use of legal intoxicants like alcohol, to an extent, aka "you can't work while drunk or too hungover to function" - there's no reason this can't work for other drugs.

If an employer wants to prohibit drug use on AND off the job, and conduct drug testing ... they ought to be able to do so. If the employee doesn't like it, he can work elsewhere. Drug users shouldn't be a protected class. Chick-fil-A can't fire black people for being black, but they ought to be able to fire methheads for being squirrelly.

Where public safety is involved (eg hospitals, airlines, law enforcement), the government should be able to regulate, prohibit, and punish use which results in impaired on-the-job performance. This would get interesting with regard to drugs that don't have an off switch. A meth addict who ISN'T currently intoxicated, for example, may well be so strung out desperate for a fix that guiding 747s over LAX isn't quite safe. But even this is solvable - if the current rule is "no booze within 8 hours of an ATC shift" there's no reason there couldn't be a "no meth within 14 days of an ATC shift" rule.

Their are legal standards for employee drug use that are currently in place. In general an employer can prohibit employees from using any substance they want as long as its applied equally to all employees and its part of their written and enforced policy.

Example. A company can prohibit their employee's from tobacco use as long as that policy is enforced equally to all workers. They are allowed to have testing for tobacco to enforce this policy.

To keep from getting sued over this the company has to enforce the policy though. They can't have a no tobacco rule and only half enforce it, then decide they want to fire someone because they were caught smoking in the parking lot.

This same system should, in theory, be applicable to any substance legal or not.
 
To get all reductio ad absurdum on the gateway argument, 100% of hardcore drug addicts started out with baby food.

I do not partake of the sensi herb. I might consider treating myself to a good spliff on a lazy Friday night if it were legal (I'd actually probably use a vaporizer, but anyway), rather than be forced to consume a few hundred alcohol calories, but I'm not gonna risk my career over the intoxicants the government decides to decree that I can and cannot enjoy in the safety and privacy of my own home. So I abstain, and enjoy a peaty glass of Scotch instead.

I do know plenty of hard-working, honest folk- doctors, lawyers, teachers- who choose marijuana as their after-work intoxicant of choice. Doesn't affect their work. Doesn't affect their personal lives. You'd never know.

I have performed hundreds upon hundreds of anesthetics on patients who acquired medical and surgical disease from alcohol use.

Exactly zero anesthetics stemming from marijuana use. Zero.
 
To get all reductio ad absurdum on the gateway argument, 100% of hardcore drug addicts started out with baby food.

I do not partake of the sensi herb. I might consider treating myself to a good spliff on a lazy Friday night if it were legal (I'd actually probably use a vaporizer, but anyway), rather than be forced to consume a few hundred alcohol calories, but I'm not gonna risk my career over the intoxicants the government decides to decree that I can and cannot enjoy in the safety and privacy of my own home. So I abstain, and enjoy a peaty glass of Scotch instead.

I do know plenty of hard-working, honest folk- doctors, lawyers, teachers- who choose marijuana as their after-work intoxicant of choice. Doesn't affect their work. Doesn't affect their personal lives. You'd never know.

I have performed hundreds upon hundreds of anesthetics on patients who acquired medical and surgical disease from alcohol use.

Exactly zero anesthetics stemming from marijuana use. Zero.

Which means it should be

LEGAL.

LAWS SHOULD NOT BE DICTATED BY THE VAST MINORITY OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW THE DEFINITION OF

MODERATION.

ADDICTS ARE THE MINORITY. A REALLY REALLY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION.

The

VAST MAJORITY

recognizes moderation.

Marijuana being illegal for fear of addiction is irrational!

ADDICTS ARE ADDICTS MAN.

Marijuana legalization isn't gonna change that. There's always gonna be people out there that

CAN'T SAY NO.

SO WHAT.

Societal laws should not be dictated by the diminutive percentage of our nation that don't know when to stop since the VAST MAJORITY

know when to stop.
 
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