SMP or St. Georges? Please Help!

[sahinak]

Hi everyone!

Just wanted to know what everyone's opinions are and would like it most if those that know or did smp's lent their two cents.

My stats:
Major: Social Science and Biology
cGPA/sGPA: 3.5/3.1
MCAT: 30Q
Extracurriculars:
- 4 years of shadowing with a Peds and Cardiologist
- Summer internship program
- Clinical Research at some big NYC hospitals
- EMT certified
- Science tutor for HS and College students
- International experience in building a healthcare system in a rural area

I called St. Georges and they have said to me that I am competitive for their school but I still worry being that its hard afterwards to find a residency (from what I read on the forums). The thing with SMP is that there is no guarantee because even if I do well, my original GPA is low. I got Cs in my entire year of Orgo and one semester of bio (because of a family tragedy)

Should I apply to an SMP or go into St. Georges?

Thank you!!

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[DrMidlife]

Of course SGU is going to tell you you're competitive. You're a lucrative potential customer, because you can get US federal student loans. SGU is not required to ensure you'll graduate, pass boards or get a residency. Kaching!

I suggest the following to improve your US MD odds:
1. repeat the prereqs you got C's in. Get A's. Do this one at a time, at night, doesn't matter, just avoid doing it at a CC.
2. get a couple more points on the MCAT
3. use the above to get into a good SMP like Gtown, Cincy, EVMS, Loyola etc
4. contemplate what it means to permanently study at an A level for the next several years, and make sure you're cool with signing up for that ongoing level of effort.

In theory you could apply now for SMPs that start fall 2012, but be emotionally ready to need to wait until you have your improvement collateral (transcripts & scores) in hand.

I suggest the following to improve your DO odds:
1. Do a biomedical science masters at a DO school. These are usually 2 years.

Best of luck to you.

 

[sahinak]

Thank you for your advice!!

I have been thinking about repeating and getting better scores but the thing is, it's becoming ever more competitive to get into medical school, even with a 3.5 science gpa. I have also had friends and family that have gone to the carribean and are back now practicing and so it makes the carribean feel more attractive.


Any one else's advice???

 

[notdeadyet]

Go DO. Your scores are very competitive for a DO admission WITHOUT a SMP or such. Unless you're fixated on doing derm or neurosurgery, a DO degree isn't going to be a strike against you for most residency programs.

 

[DrMidlife]

Go DO. Your scores are very competitive for a DO admission WITHOUT a SMP or such. Unless you're fixated on doing derm or neurosurgery, a DO degree isn't going to be a strike against you for most residency programs.

Well, if by "very competitive" you mean "average or better", a 3.1 in science isn't very competitive. DO school GPAs are not much lower than MD school GPAs. A 30 MCAT helps (DO average is about 28, MD is about 31), but that science GPA wouldn't be a lock on DO admission.

There are DO-specific residencies in addition to all the "regular" (ACGME) residencies. A major reason for going DO is additional school/residency location choices.

Best of luck to you.

 

[notdeadyet]

Well, if by "very competitive" you mean "average or better", a 3.1 in science isn't very competitive. DO school GPAs are not much lower than MD school GPAs. A 30 MCAT helps (DO average is about 28, MD is about 31), but that science GPA wouldn't be a lock on DO admission.

True, his numbers definitely aren't a lock, but they're definitely competitive.

DO average MCAT isn't 28. I did a quick look-up on Princeton Review of the most recent averages for the DO programs that I'd looked into. They don't break out science GPA, but they list average GPA and MCAT.

Kirksville COM 3.49, 26.3
Kansas City COM 3.45, 25
Lake Erie COM 3.41, 26
Chicago COM 3.52, 26.3
Nova SE 3.4, 25
PCOM 3.45, 27
Pikeville 3.44, 22.3
Touro University (Vallejo) 3.47, 28.9
UNE 3.45, 26.8

His GPA is average/above average for almost all of these programs and his MCAT is well above the norm.

He'd be quite competitive applying, but you're right that raising the science GPA with a few classes couldn't hurt, especially if he goes DO and can get grades replaced by retaking a couple of the C classes.

This is not a DO slam, just a recognition that DO programs are a great opportunity for many people for many reasons. One great opportunity it provides is the chance to become physicians for folks with stats that would prevent them from a U.S. allopathic program. Too often folks who can't get in to an allopathic program (or don't believe they can) immediately look to the Caribbean. Your future opportunities will be great going osteopathic than offshore.

 

[DrMidlife]

Not to argue a pointless point, but Princeton Review's data is usually about 4 years old, and they don't specify whether they're talking about applicants (which would be lower) or acceptees (which would be higher). Unless that changed recently.

But I shouldn't be stating DO averages with certainty in any case. Any stats reported by AACOM are self-reported by schools using surveys. Facepalm. And with the exception of DMU, I didn't see anything that I'd call transparency about stats. Compare with this.

 

[sahinak]

Thank you both!

The thing is I am interested in doing ER and perhaps surgery even after doing some new shadowing hours. I also would be perhaps looking into practicing outside the US, would me doing DO cause any issue?

Btw, I'm a girl. =)

 

[DrMidlife]

The typical advice is to hold off on picking a specialty until 3rd year, when you get to see what the actual work is on the wards.

DOs have a ton of practice rights internationally. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Osteopathic#International_practice_rights

If you're talking about doing international aid work, like MSF, then there's no DO barrier.

If you're talking about moving to another country and getting licensed to practice medicine there, that's difficult for MDs as well as DOs. In the US, a foreign-trained physician has to pass boards here, if not do residency here, in order to practice here. Other countries put up similar screens.

Best of luck to you.

 

[robertch8]

This might sound a little bit out of left field compared to what most people would advise but I'd definitely do the SMP and apply early to MD schools as if you're going through a normal cycle. I have similar stats to you, and was waitlisted at a MD school last cycle.

I ended up having to decide between a SMP and going to Israel for med school, and I decided to do the SMP but apply to med school early rather than wait for grades to come in. I just felt like being IMG is going to be a harder and harder hill to climb in the long run while a SMP you have to work your butt off for a year but if you do well, you don't have to prove yourself anymore. It's worked out really well; I already have 2 acceptances and I'm more treating the SMP like a great prep course for med school since I'm taking Anatomy and Physiology and 2 med school classes (Cell Bio and Neuro). It's been hard to manage school work and traveling, but I've been able to use my SMP grades as a great update to boost me throughout this cycle.

I wouldn't normally advise what I'm doing to most people but you seem to have stats like I did that if you do some enhancement this year maybe community service, research or clinical, and do a SMP next year you can get into med school during your SMP year like I have.

 

[drizzt3117]

I don't know why anyone would go to the Caribbean with how things are going. DO may limit your specialty choices, but it also might not matter if you're interested in primary care.

 

[DrMagic]

Hi everyone!

Just wanted to know what everyone's opinions are and would like it most if those that know or did smp's lent their two cents.

My stats:
Major: Social Science and Biology
cGPA/sGPA: 3.5/3.1
MCAT: 30Q
Extracurriculars:
- 4 years of shadowing with a Peds and Cardiologist
- Summer internship program
- Clinical Research at some big NYC hospitals
- EMT certified
- Science tutor for HS and College students
- International experience in building a healthcare system in a rural area

I called St. Georges and they have said to me that I am competitive for their school but I still worry being that its hard afterwards to find a residency (from what I read on the forums). The thing with SMP is that there is no guarantee because even if I do well, my original GPA is low. I got Cs in my entire year of Orgo and one semester of bio (because of a family tragedy)

Should I apply to an SMP or go into St. Georges?

Thank you!!

I highly suggest DO schools. Going DO will make your life a heck of a lot easier. Can you get into DO schools? I'm not trying to make up a story here, I really actually think you are quite competitive for DO without the biomedical science masters. DO I think thinks the MCAT is the golden ticket. A lot of DO applications I read have extremely low MCATS and even lower than your GPA combined. I think your MCAT should be enough to offset your science GPA, but again its the luck of the draw. If you don't get in, take more courses. Doing the DO SMP I'm sure would get you in, but doing a regular SMP might be a better idea, because MD schools may prefer SMPs from MD institutions, which would also leave the door open for the more holistic DO admissions. My DO GPA is well into the competitive range myself now, but I can't say the same for my US MD. I would try to get a DO letter, even if they say its not required. Doing specialties like surgery are not any harder than another field of medicine, but going to the Caribbean makes those extremely hard to get (including any residency). I know I don't like IM, FM, or psychiatry, that's why I'm not going to the Caribbean.

 

[deleted248403]

Doing specialties like surgery are not any harder than another field of medicine, but going to the Caribbean makes those extremely hard to get (including any residency). I know I don't like IM, FM, or psychiatry, that's why I'm not going to the Caribbean.

Getting into some surgical specialties as a DO is absolutely harder than if you were an MD - there are few DOs in the top surgical or top anesthesia/derm/rad programs but the emphasis is on the few. And you can bet they were top of their classes.

 

[DrMidlife]

Getting into some surgical specialties as a DO is absolutely harder than if you were an MD - there are few DOs in the top surgical or top anesthesia/derm/rad programs but the emphasis is on the few. And you can bet they were top of their classes.

Well, part of the bet with going DO is that there are DO-specific residencies in addition to (arguable) access to ACGME residencies. When I was considering DO, it made reasonable sense to try for an ACGME general surgery residency, on the way to an "MD" fellowship. It made no sense to me to try for a competitive integrated surgery or ROADE residency from DO (mostly because I don't want to live in Michigan). Nor did it make much sense to me to try to go from an AOA gen surg residency to an "MD" fellowship, although this does happen. To over-simplify, doing a DO surg residency usually means MI/IL/PA/NY/FL and a career in a community hospital. Back when I was looking into this, I "collected" anecdotal exceptions - I found about a dozen DOs in academic surg at MD schools (all my links are broken now except for this one).

I agree with robflanker that only occasionally do DOs get into competitive residencies on the ACGME side. And there are very few DO residencies for competitive specialties. AOA (DO) residencies are listed here. ACGME (MD) residencies are listed here.

Point being, cream rises to the top; don't be too sure you're cream. If you're at the very top of your DO class and you seriously have your act together (research, sub-I's, connections), you can reasonably try for ACGME general surgery, and you can reasonably try for AOA integrated surg specialties. Similarly, if you're at the very top of your Carib class and you seriously have your act together, you can reasonably try for ACGME gen surg (but like US MDs, you have no access to AOA anything).

Note that for DO, you can't legitimately attempt to cross-match to maximize your chances and/or have an AOA choice as a backup plan. For instance, if you want to go ortho/oto/ophtho and you would prefer ACGME, you have to skip the AOA match entirely because AOA happens first and is binding.

It took me a really long time to get up to speed on residency basics, and I strongly recommend an early start. There's an Iserson book that used to be good, but you really have to dive into AMA/AOA and specialty assoc pages to figure out how it works.

Best of luck to you all.

 

[drizzt3117]

Starting in 2015 you need a ACGME residency to do an acgme fellowship.

It's pretty hard to match to an acgme university program in anything more competitive than gsurg if you are DO. There's people with 250/AOA equivalent/pubs that are getting minimal attention even in rads and there are 1100+ acgme spots.