So can we just delete Embryology from medical school?

[Arkangeloid]

I know everyone here rages and bitches about Microbiology, and it's admittedly a stupid subject, but it's important and relevant nonetheless.

The same can't be said for Embryology. At least the way they teach it at our school, it's just an endless parade of arcane Latin names and processes. And in the last 10 minutes, they give us some clinical disorders to learn. The test questions are almost always drawn from these clinical disorders, as well as some simple one-step word associations from earlier in the lecture.

I've talked to some other people, and I can't think of anyone who studies the Embryology lectures in detail. It's just a colossal waste of time.

So I've been thinking: can't they just give us a list of the associations and diseases they want us to memorize, rather than wasting our time with pretentious 3-hour-long lectures? The end result is the same thing from a learning perspective.

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[DermViser]

High Yield Embryology, done.

 

[sinombre]

Why don't you give this feedback to your school instead of posting about it on SDN? They might actually do something about it. I'm not quite sure what you expect anyone here to say other than "yep, sounds like they're wasting a good amount of your time," which you're obviously already aware of.

 

[DermViser]

Why don't you give this feedback to your school instead of posting about it on SDN? They might actually do something about it.

😆😆😆😆

 

[Arkangeloid]

Why don't you give this feedback to your school instead of posting about it on SDN? They might actually do something about it. I'm not quite sure what you expect anyone here to say other than "yep, sounds like they're wasting a good amount of your time," which you're obviously already aware of.

Oh come on mang. If the school listened to our feedback, wouldn't students actually bother filling out their evaluations?

 

[CherryRedDracul]

 

[CherryRedDracul]

Oh come on mang. If the school listened to our feedback, wouldn't students actually bother filling out their evaluations?

We get "professionalism letters" for not filling our evaluations out in a timely manner. 😆

 

[DermViser]

Your new avatar is scaring the **** out of me.

 

[DermViser]

We get "professionalism letters" for not filling our evaluations out in a timely manner. 😆

It's a good thing our evaluations are anonymous bc I did a lot of unprofessional cursing in mine. They can't do anything bc if they confronted us about it, then by definition it wasn't anonymous anymore.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

Your new avatar is scaring the **** out of me.

Glad to know it's having its intended effect.

It's a good thing our evaluations are anonymous bc I did a lot of unprofessional cursing in mine. They can't do anything bc if they confronted us about it, then by definition it wasn't anonymous anymore.

Oh, of course, it's great that they're "anonymous".

 

[sinombre]

😆😆😆😆

To be fair, my school has gotten rid of a lot of stuff like this and replaced it with more clinically-relevant and board-relevant material in response to student feedback.

 

[DermViser]

Glad to know it's having its intended effect.

Oh, of course, it's great that they're "anonymous".

No really they are. They showed us the program how it works (the med school). The only thing the school gets is that you've completed them (for professionalism purposes). The computer program then anonymizes the comments and the professor gets the redacted version.

If they were to confront a student about "professionalism" on what was said in an evaluation, then everyone would know that evaluations weren't in fact anonymous.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

No really they are. They showed us the program how it works (the med school). The only thing the school gets is that you've completed them (for professionalism purposes). The computer program then anonymizes the comments and the professor gets the redacted version.

If they were to confront a student about "professionalism" on what was said in an evaluation, then everyone would know that evaluations weren't in fact anonymous.

Damn, I wish I knew this. I have a lot of fun things I want to say.

 

[DermViser]

To be fair, my school has gotten rid of a lot of stuff like this and replaced it with more clinically-relevant and board-relevant material in response to student feedback.

The only way a med school Embryology course would be more clinically relevant or board relevant is if the PhD professor started reading outloud High Yield Embryology (or BRS Embryology if there's a lot of time to kill) in class. Anything more is overkill.

 

[DermViser]

I know everyone here rages and bitches about Microbiology, and it's admittedly a stupid subject, but it's important and relevant nonetheless.

The same can't be said for Embryology. At least the way they teach it at our school, it's just an endless parade of arcane Latin names and processes. And in the last 10 minutes, they give us some clinical disorders to learn. The test questions are almost always drawn from these clinical disorders, as well as some simple one-step word associations from earlier in the lecture.

I've talked to some other people, and I can't think of anyone who studies the Embryology lectures in detail. It's just a colossal waste of time.

So I've been thinking: can't they just give us a list of the associations and diseases they want us to memorize, rather than wasting our time with pretentious 3-hour-long lectures? The end result is the same thing from a learning perspective.

Most schools realize that Embryology is so miniscule in importance. In theory, it's supposed to help you understand Gross Anatomy. I guess in theory it's good to know if you were wanting to become a neonatologist, pediatric surgeon, etc. There are some board relevant diseases also: gastroschisis, omphalocele, etc.

 

[boogaloo]

So I've been thinking: can't they just give us a list of the associations and diseases they want us to memorize, rather than wasting our time with pretentious 3-hour-long lectures? The end result is the same thing from a learning perspective.

If you can get a hold of the Gross Anatomy/Embryology videos from Kaplan, I highly recommend watching them. I watched those videos a couple of weeks before my Step I exam; they helped tremendously with my understanding of gross anatomy and how embryology plays into its organization and development. On my Step I exam breakdown, I got higher performance/stars on that section despite barely passing anatomy.

 

[mulberry]

I didn't even bother opening HY embryo. Our embryo professor would make a "review" powerpoint before every test because he knew people wouldn't pay much attention to the hundreds of useless lecture slides. Are your embryo questions grouped into your anatomy tests? It was like that for us so there were only a half dozen embryo questions each test.

edit: for step prep, though, HY embryo is the way to go.

 

[Arkangeloid]

If you can get a hold of the Gross Anatomy/Embryology videos from Kaplan, I highly recommend watching them. I watched those videos a couple of weeks before my Step I exam; they helped tremendously with my understanding of gross anatomy and how embryology plays into its organization and development. On my Step I exam breakdown, I got higher performance/stars on that section despite barely passing anatomy.

Can I get a hold of them if I sail beneath the black flag?

(If you know what I mean)

 

[boogaloo]

Can I get a hold of them if I sail beneath the black flag?

(If you know what I mean)

Most likely. My buddies let me borrow theirs off of their external HD, so I don't have them. Keep in mind it's n=1, but I thought they helped a lot.

 

[DermViser]

Can I get a hold of them if I sail beneath the black flag?

(If you know what I mean)

Yes, pretty much all of them.

 

[mulberry]

Yes, pretty much all of them.

Torrents?

 

[DermViser]

Torrents?

Or auction websites.

 

[ChEMD]

I agree that embryology is often poorly taught and seems like a useless topic, but I would definitely argue against the latter. Congenital disorders can largely be traced back to some faulty developmental pathway, and sometimes they may not present until adulthood (patent foramen ovale), so they're not only relevant to pediatricians. I suppose you could argue that it doesn't matter if you know how the problem developed, as long as you know how to treat it, but then you might as well go be a PA.

A lot of what is taught in medical school probably won't be relevant to many specialties, but that doesn't mean it isn't important to teach it. They key with any subject is to not let yourself get overwhelmed with the material. At least at my school, embryology took a back seat to our other classes, so many people put it off until the week of our test. Procrastinating made it so we were just cramming a bunch of facts instead of synthesizing the information and really understanding it. Looking back on it, I wish I would have spent more time because it actually makes a lot of sense and is pretty interesting if you can get passed all of the words you've never seen before (which is probably the thing I struggle the most with).

 

[Arkangeloid]

It's a good thing our evaluations are anonymous bc I did a lot of unprofessional cursing in mine. They can't do anything bc if they confronted us about it, then by definition it wasn't anonymous anymore.

I want to write that a certain subject is "fking homo." But I'm worried that people might identify me as the writer, tbh. I've let it slip in small groups before that I think certain questions are "gay."

 

[DermViser]

I want to write that a certain subject is "fking homo." But I'm worried that people might identify me as the writer, tbh. I've let it slip in small groups before that I think certain questions are "gay."

My comments are usually not directed at the subject but the professor himself and the teaching (or lack thereof).

I get why medical schools have to cover certain stuff: 1) the LCME mandates it, and 2) it's a required subject on the boards. Doesn't mean the PhD professor who has been teaching this stuff for years, can't get things right after the 87th time teaching the course, or can't go to the medical school bookstore and pick up a board review book and go thru it.

 

[hoopie]

Embryo knowledge can be useful. For instance, knowing how the GI track develops makes it really easy to remember the vasculature of it all. Similar thing with dermatomes. There's a fair amount of stuff like that where if you understand the development, you can more easily understand anatomy in a way where you're not just trying to memorize things.

Embryo as an overall subject certainly has a lot of miniscule details that you're not going to remember or care to remember, but that's probably the case with most subjects. I wouldn't dismiss it completely, though, as it can enhance your understanding of other concepts.

 

[Arkangeloid]

I agree that embryology is often poorly taught and seems like a useless topic, but I would definitely argue against the latter. Congenital disorders can largely be traced back to some faulty developmental pathway, and sometimes they may not present until adulthood (patent foramen ovale), so they're not only relevant to pediatricians. I suppose you could argue that it doesn't matter if you know how the problem developed, as long as you know how to treat it, but then you might as well go be a PA.

Tbh, being a PA sounds kinda badass now that I think about it. Less debt, and you get to learn useful things rather than arcane nonsense.

 

[DermViser]

Embryo knowledge can be useful. For instance, knowing how the GI track develops makes it really easy to remember the vasculature of it all. Similar thing with dermatomes. There's a fair amount of stuff like that where if you understand the development, you can more easily understand anatomy in a way where you're not just trying to memorize things.

Embryo as an overall subject certainly has a lot of miniscule details that you're not going to remember or care to remember, but that's probably the case with most subjects. I wouldn't dismiss it completely, though, as it can enhance your understanding of other concepts.

Um, no. Just...no: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/embryology-and-anatomy.880767/

 

[DermViser]

Tbh, being a PA sounds kinda badass now that I think about it. Less debt, and you get to learn useful things rather than arcane nonsense.

And you can clock out when your workday is done and switch specialties when you want.

 

[VisionaryTics]

Tbh, being a PA sounds kinda badass now that I think about it. Less debt, and you get to learn useful things rather than arcane nonsense.

It gets better, Ark.

 

[ChEMD]

Tbh, being a PA sounds kinda badass now that I think about it. Less debt, and you get to learn useful things rather than arcane nonsense.

Haha I don't disagree, but I don't think it would be enough for me. Also, try not to argue that your education is useless. Physicians can't argue that their preclinical education is useless and at the same time say it is one of the things that separates us from mid-level providers, as the two ideas are mutually exclusive.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Haha I don't disagree, but I don't think it would be enough for me. Also, try not to argue that your education is useless. Physicians can't argue that their preclinical education is useless and at the same time say it is one of the things that separates us from mid-level providers, as the two ideas are mutually exclusive.

Agreed.

But there are two more ideas that are mutually exclusive: saying that a robust and well-rounded preclinical education is important, and saying that the best way to get that education is to watch lectures online at 2x speed and condense them so you learn as little as possible.

 

[DermViser]

I agree that embryology is often poorly taught and seems like a useless topic, but I would definitely argue against the latter. Congenital disorders can largely be traced back to some faulty developmental pathway, and sometimes they may not present until adulthood (patent foramen ovale), so they're not only relevant to pediatricians. I suppose you could argue that it doesn't matter if you know how the problem developed, as long as you know how to treat it, but then you might as well go be a PA.

A lot of what is taught in medical school probably won't be relevant to many specialties, but that doesn't mean it isn't important to teach it. They key with any subject is to not let yourself get overwhelmed with the material. At least at my school, embryology took a back seat to our other classes, so many people put it off until the week of our test. Procrastinating made it so we were just cramming a bunch of facts instead of synthesizing the information and really understanding it. Looking back on it, I wish I would have spent more time because it actually makes a lot of sense and is pretty interesting if you can get passed all of the words you've never seen before (which is probably the thing I struggle the most with).

The problem is that professors have absolutely no idea what specialty you'll end up matching into. So they have to throw it all on you and hope it sticks. Some basic science subjects will be more pertinent to some specialties than others.

 

[ChEMD]

The problem is that professors have absolutely no idea what specialty you'll end up matching into. So they have to throw it all on you and hope it sticks. Some basic science subjects will be more pertinent to some specialties than others.

Yup, I definitely agree. Other than forcing people to choose a speciality before they start school, I can't see any other way of doing it.

 

[DermViser]

Agreed.

But there are two more ideas that are mutually exclusive: saying that a robust and well-rounded preclinical education is important, and saying that the best way to get that education is to watch lectures online at 2x speed and condense them so you learn as little as possible.

Wrong. Lectures at x2 speed are an efficiency issue not a decrease in content.

 

[Psai]

I read high yield embryo and it helped me learn a little. I understand why the dermatomes on the arms are legs are the way they are now

 

[notbobtrustme]

Embryo knowledge can be useful. For instance, knowing how the GI track develops makes it really easy to remember the vasculature of it all. Similar thing with dermatomes. There's a fair amount of stuff like that where if you understand the development, you can more easily understand anatomy in a way where you're not just trying to memorize things.

Embryo as an overall subject certainly has a lot of miniscule details that you're not going to remember or care to remember, but that's probably the case with most subjects. I wouldn't dismiss it completely, though, as it can enhance your understanding of other concepts.

nothing of that really translate into clinical practice though. Very few people, if any, are doing surgery at 12 weeks of gestation to fix an embryological problem. The stuff that is relevant is only so because it's about screening or prevention (eg AFP and folate; teratogen exposure). It's not like you can modify the damage done except in a few very rare cases. Knowing that TOF is due to abnormal neuronal crest cell migration does nothing for the kid born with a TOF nor does it do anything for any future kid with a TOF. It's just useless "regurg" material. Know it for boards and boom, never see it again in your life.

It's just a holdover from back in the day, when embryology was probably 1 lecture long and consisted of the very basics of embryo formation.

 

[ChEMD]

nothing of that really translate into clinical practice though. Very few people, if any, are doing surgery at 12 weeks of gestation to fix an embryological problem. The stuff that is relevant is only so because it's about screening or prevention (eg AFP and folate; teratogen exposure). It's not like you can modify the damage done except in a few very rare cases. Knowing that TOF is due to abnormal neuronal crest cell migration does nothing for the kid born with a TOF nor does it do anything for any future kid with a TOF. It's just useless "regurg" material. Know it for boards and boom, never see it again in your life.

It's just a holdover from back in the day, when embryology was probably 1 lecture long and consisted of the very basics of embryo formation.

You can't tell me that physicians in a variety of different specialties don't see and treat people with congenital abnormalities all the time, especially in academic practice. Like I said before, I guess you could argue you don't need to know how it happened as long as you know how to treat it, but then that same argument could be made for practically every other type of pathology out there.

 

[CBG23]

I may be in the minority, but I do think having some embryology background is important. My school gave us Maybe 8-10 lectures focusing on the key points of embryology throughout med school. While it was painful to learn and it wasn't my favorite subject, I am glad I was at least exposed to the subject.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

.

 

[Psai]

nothing of that really translate into clinical practice though. Very few people, if any, are doing surgery at 12 weeks of gestation to fix an embryological problem. The stuff that is relevant is only so because it's about screening or prevention (eg AFP and folate; teratogen exposure). It's not like you can modify the damage done except in a few very rare cases. Knowing that TOF is due to abnormal neuronal crest cell migration does nothing for the kid born with a TOF nor does it do anything for any future kid with a TOF. It's just useless "regurg" material. Know it for boards and boom, never see it again in your life.

It's just a holdover from back in the day, when embryology was probably 1 lecture long and consisted of the very basics of embryo formation.

How can you understand the abnormal if you don't understand the normal?

 

[Arkangeloid]

It gets better, Ark.

I think so.


After all, it can't get any worse lol.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

Agreed.

But there are two more ideas that are mutually exclusive: saying that a robust and well-rounded preclinical education is important, and saying that the best way to get that education is to watch lectures online at 2x speed and condense them so you learn as little as possible.

. Ignore me. Was derailing.

 

[Arkangeloid]

. Ignore me. Was derailing.

No, I read it.

And fine, I'll do it. Tbh, I don't care too much about killing fat old patients that were slowly dying anyways thanks to terrible life choices, I just want to get out of med school alive. And if learning more than just high yield facts can do that, then so be it.

 

[Siggy]

It's a good thing our evaluations are anonymous bc I did a lot of unprofessional cursing in mine. They can't do anything bc if they confronted us about it, then by definition it wasn't anonymous anymore.

We're told upfront that our surveys are "anonymous," however if someone does go in and decide to be patently unprofessional (cussing, etc), then they can use the system to find out who submitted it. It's very possible to rip someone a new one while maintaining professionalism.

 

[member1000765]

The problem with med school embryology is that it's taught poorly, and at least at my med school it was kind of an afterthought of gross anatomy. As a med student I thought it was completely worthless and a complete waste of time.

Then I became a resident dealing with surgical correction of congenital malformations, and I can't tell you how many times I go back to read the embryology of certain conditions to help pre-operative planning in the surgical approach. I agree that most physicians don't need a good foundation of embryology, but in my experience the best surgeons are the ones who have a firm grasp of embryological development.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

No, I read it.

And fine, I'll do it. Tbh, I don't care too much about killing fat old patients that were slowly dying anyways thanks to terrible life choices, I just want to get out of med school alive. And if learning more than just high yield facts can do that, then so be it.

What I said was over-the-top harsh by my standards, at least for someone I don't know. It was also off-topic. I regret saying it.

Just bear in mind that not all your patients will be fat/old people beyond help. It's a little early in the game to be as jaded as you seem to be, especially as we're not even in the crappy part of medical education yet. That comes later.


As for the actual topic, I think embryology can be useful when it's used to reinforce relationships. I think it's mostly interesting, even though I don't see many direct uses for it in my life. The questions on it tend to be pretty easy here, so I don't mind having it around.

I'm glad we don't have an actual "devo" unit here though.

 

[Frazier]

Tbh, I don't care too much about killing fat old patients that were slowly dying anyways thanks to terrible life choices, I just want to get out of med school alive. And if learning more than just high yield facts can do that, then so be it.

"Hell ya mang. Who cares bout killin them fat old patients that are slowly dying. Their anatomy is all gay. The have a bug that is fkin homo neways and ish -- they need to stop being a bish and raise the 420 mang.

nomasayin?"

^^^ Does that about cover all your bases?

 

[Siggy]

"Hell ya mang. Who cares bout killin them fat old patients that are slowly dying. Their anatomy is all gay. The have a bug that is fkin homo neways and ish -- they need to stop being a bish and raise the 420 mang.

nomasayin?"

^^^ Does that about cover all your bases?

 

[notbobtrustme]

The problem with med school embryology is that it's taught poorly, and at least at my med school it was kind of an afterthought of gross anatomy. As a med student I thought it was completely worthless and a complete waste of time.

Then I became a resident dealing with surgical correction of congenital malformations, and I can't tell you how many times I go back to read the embryology of certain conditions to help pre-operative planning in the surgical approach. I agree that most physicians don't need a good foundation of embryology, but in my experience the best surgeons are the ones who have a firm grasp of embryological development.

hmmm, thanks for putting some context into the importance of embryo.