So, current students....

[WhtsThFrequency]

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Having begun my residency last week and having to teach fourth years (Hi InfiniVet!! 🙂 ), I wanted to ask something of you all.

What do you want out of your residents?! Basically, I'm trying to make pathology as interesting and relevant as possible to students, even though it isnt the most popular field and most people barf at the idea of necropsy 😉

Current fourth years as well as anyone else, feel free to share your thoughts. This is my first teaching experience and I'd really like to know what you think your "practical" teachers (ie the residents and clinicians out on the floor with you) should be focusing on. How much should we explain? Or is there such as thing as too much detail. Should we tailor what we go over to your interests, or keep it broad so no one gets left out? Even little things like do you like residents who go by their first names with you, does the Dr. thing get annoying, or do you not mind it because it keep the normal friendly heirarchy in place?

How much do you want to be shown, and how much do you want to do (pathology/necropsy/biopsy in particular)What makes a good resident or a bad resident in terms of teaching, attitude, etc.

I really want to come across as working with people as my colleagues (ie not being bossy) but sometimes on the necropsy floor, if things get crazy you just have to delegate and can come off sounding mean. Maybe I am not used to being in a position of authority yet....trying to balance being a teacher and being a fellow colleague is a new experience.

 

[No Imagination]

Pathology was my favorite class. Not sure how other schools do it (and I am only a 2nd year) - but I loved when they (Profs) would go through a case from beginning to end - starting with the specimens, asking questions that described what happened to the individual.

Basically covering pathogenesis from the perspective of the tissue/organ/specimen in front of us. Really helped cement topics as well as put everything else we were learning in perspective.

EDIT: Another thing, and this goes for all classes, but I LOVE relevant detail. One of our pathology profs was a biochemist in another life. He went into a lot of physiological chemistry for many of the pathologies. For me anyway made for some interesting learning!

BTW, quite sexist of me - but always thought you were a guy (probably from the herp conversations we've had).

 

[dyachei]

Having begun my residency last week and having to teach fourth years (Hi InfiniVet!! 🙂 ), I wanted to ask something of you all.

What do you want out of your residents?! Basically, I'm trying to make pathology as interesting and relevant as possible to students, even though it isnt the most popular field and most people barf at the idea of necropsy 😉

Current fourth years as well as anyone else, feel free to share your thoughts. This is my first teaching experience and I'd really like to know what you think your "practical" teachers (ie the residents and clinicians out on the floor with you) should be focusing on. How much should we explain? Or is there such as thing as too much detail. Should we tailor what we go over to your interests, or keep it broad so no one gets left out? Even little things like do you like residents who go by their first names with you, does the Dr. thing get annoying, or do you not mind it because it keep the normal friendly heirarchy in place?

How much do you want to be shown, and how much do you want to do (pathology/necropsy/biopsy in particular)What makes a good resident or a bad resident in terms of teaching, attitude, etc.

I really want to come across as working with people as my colleagues (ie not being bossy) but sometimes on the necropsy floor, if things get crazy you just have to delegate and can come off sounding mean. Maybe I am not used to being in a position of authority yet....trying to balance being a teacher and being a fellow colleague is a new experience.

One of my biggest pet peeves from residents is when they jump in and do it for me. I want to be taught to do things, even if it means doing it very slowly with someone. It is frustrating to be there as little more than an extra set of hands, and I learn by doing pretty well. I prefer using the Dr. instead of the first name just because then I know where I stand.

I would go with broad topics unless your students want something very specific. And there is a such thing as too much detail. Essentially, I want to learn what I will use in my life as a veterinarian. When it gets to semantics or specific details that make no difference to the case, it is too much.

 

[twelvetigers]

BTW, quite sexist of me - but always thought you were a guy (probably from the herp conversations we've had).

Nope, she's a total hottie.

 

[No Imagination]

Nope, she's a total hottie.

I wasn't going to go there, was trying to be subtle - but yes, love them gingers.

 

[breenie]

I wasn't going to go there, was trying to be subtle - but yes, love them gingers.

👍👍👍

Gingers are the best.

(Bias may exist in this post, as the author is a ginger...)

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Am actually a "failed ginger" since every woman in my family has bright red hair 'cept me and my mom...I'm more of a strawberry brown/blonde.

Yea I try to let the students do as much as possible - although it is SOOOO tempting to dive in I just need to go okay...they need this more than me right now, etc. But if its an important lesion, I do sometimes take over on one part just (no offense!!) make sure it gets cut right. But yeah funny that was mentioned I have heard that even from residents about other residents...ie man they don't let the fourth years do enough!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Nope, she's a total hottie.

Rawr

 

[flyhi]

Now my interest is piqued (hey spelling police, is that correct?). WhtsThFreq, is that you in the avi? If so, TT, i agree.

 

[badcats]

I love the new direction of this thread😉.
As an incoming first year, I am not sure how much I have to contribute, but I tend to learn better by first watching and then doing, or having someone guide me through the process the first time if I am unsure so later I am comfortable enough to do it on my own. Maybe if there are some things you absolutely have to handle yourself, just walk your students through why you are doing things a certain way as you do it and explain why it is such a delicate process.

ETA: I guess by 4th year they should know what they are doing,, so maybe just let them go for it but be there if they need you.
Good luck with teaching!

 

[twelvetigers]

Now my interest is piqued (hey spelling police, is that correct?)

Yes ma'am, spot on!

I want to see an un-cropped version of the picture. Yowza. 😉

Alright, I'll stop.

 

[laurafinn]

Basically, I'm trying to make pathology as interesting and relevant as possible to students, even though it isnt the most popular field and most people barf at the idea of necropsy 😉

Awwww... Necropsy Roster is probably the favorite rotation among final years at my school. It doesn't have to be unpopular 🙂

I think what people like is the morning rounds where the lecturers riff off of topics that the incoming cases bring up (pretty much pimping us, but it doesn't come off as confrontational). It's really interactive, pretty lighthearted and really makes you learn. We give our own little presentations to others in our roster a couple of times a week, and a brief presentation on schoolwide path rounds on Fridays.

The residents are pretty much hands off, we do all the cutting and sample gathering and stuff. I think the attitude is that the animals are dead already, its not like we can irretrievably screw that much up 🙂 The residents are always around if we have any questions, which is really nice.

Also, the hours are choice. Coming off more time-sucking, afterhours-heavy rotations, necropsy is awesome.

 

[HopefulAg]

Nope, she's a total hottie.

If that's her in her avatar: then I agree. But I've always been fond of redheads so I may be a teense biased.

Beyond that I have nothing to contribute to this thread, other than to agree with hating when people jump in prematurely and do things for me. I've taught kids at summer camps before and know that some people don't necessarily like to ask for help and sometimes you have to jump in and help them (or be a bit more pushy with the 'do you need help?' question). I would hope that 4VMs are a bit better than kids at summer camp but ego is also a powerful thing.

I've also been in situations where I hit a brick wall and instead of letting me figure it out myself, my mentor just immediately does it for me with no explanation. I know it's quicker but jeez...

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Y

I want to see an un-cropped version of the picture. Yowza. 😉

Alright, I'll stop.

Er...*blush* Er...wasn't, er, 😱 expecting this thread direction ROFL Ya, pic was taken on the coast in SC. Er....well, I have an album of me and my dog and various things posted on the right on my public profile. However, psh, of course, I look my hottest when I am cranking on a horse leg with some carefully placed blood spatters on my forehead and using Sunday School words under my breath and slipping in cecal contents, of course I mean, doesn't everybody?

Awesome guys, okay....seems like number one best thing is having you guys do as much as possible. Keep it comin!

 

[CookieBear]

General, and more general. I LOVED General Path.

Systemic nearly ... at the time, it made me hate pathology.

So, keep it general, keep it clinically relevant/based (unless someones want another angle/slant)...

I did a snake necropsy by myself today. A little guidance/teacher'ing/mentoring would've been nice.

(I'm away on an externship).

So, yes, let us do stuff, but, be available. And I don't see anything wrong with, "Hey, there's something pretty cool there.." and letting us figure the rest out. (Maybe that's giving too much away-- I dunno).

I don't have Necropsy World until August... so I'll let ya know. Maybe. 'Cuz I have Ax after that!!!

 

[CookieBear]

Er...*blush* Er...wasn't, er, 😱 expecting this thread direction ROFL Ya, pic was taken on the coast in SC. Er....well, I have an album of me and my dog and various things posted on the right on my public profile. However, psh, of course, I look my hottest when I am cranking on a horse leg with some carefully placed blood spatters on my forehead and using Sunday School words under my breath and slipping in cecal contents, of course I mean, doesn't everybody?

Awesome guys, okay....seems like number one best thing is having you guys do as much as possible. Keep it comin!

Yep, I think you can now count on being "that hot pathology chic."

😀

 

[InfiniVet]

Dr. WhtsThFrequency you're doing a great job 🙂

I like it when residents (or anyone for that matter) chime in on the conversation to contribute further to the discussion. You do this very well.

I love me some necropsy but damn that coyote was the end all say all of disgusting.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Tell me about it. Differential diagnoses: CHUPACABRA!! (and yes for the rest of you, "chupacabra" was actually on the request form...interesting day). Maybe we will have Nessie next week.

 

[alliecat44]

Hey, WhtsTheFrequency, congrats again on the residency and hope you're enjoying TX! 🙂 I think it's awesome that you're seeking input from current students.

For me in path class, ditto to everything everyone else is saying--ask questions and give us enough time to answer and make things clinically relevant as much as possible. I thought path was sooo much fun (both semesters) but there were definitely days when lab just dragged on and on. 😉

Have't had our necropsy/diagnostic medicine rotation yet, but will try to come back in September when I do and update you on rotation preferences! I imagine it'll be much the same as everyone else. 🙂 Hope you're having fun!!!

P.S. Did you happen to stop for a mini-Pilgrimage to Athens on your way down there? 🙂

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

No I did not, but stopped by Savannah when I vacayed in SC. Got to see Tenneesee, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana (stayed in New Orleans!! And man, what a different scene...) - twas a fun trip. Although having to send the significant other back off on a plane back to VA (he managed to get time off from the lab and roadtripped with me) was quite sad. Ah well. Will see him next month hopefully! 🙂 Thank goodness for free flyer miles!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

So, as I enter my third year, I bump this again!

Like I may have mentioned to come of you, I'd like to go into an academic setting so I can both teach and do diagnostics. So far all my reviews from the students are great (yay!!) but I am always up for more input.

 

[cowgirla]

So, as I enter my third year, I bump this again!

Like I may have mentioned to come of you, I'd like to go into an academic setting so I can both teach and do diagnostics. So far all my reviews from the students are great (yay!!) but I am always up for more input.

I think bumping this thread requires a repost of "the" avatar from above.
Ya know...just so everyone knows who they are dealing with 😉


That said, I like when the path people go step by step, and include what they know of the initial diagnostics and things like that. The wierd path zebras are fun to hear about and all, but I'm way more interested in the things I'll be seeing in practice. I think sometimes path people forget that not all of us want to go into path. I want to know the animal's clinical signs, medical history, signalment, etc not just "I think it's a cat. The rDVM sent it to us so we cut it open"

 

[Coquette22]

I'll probably end up repeating a lot of the above, but here's my two cents worth. Like someone else said, I like being hands on, even if it takes me a little longer at first. I tend to be shy about answering questions because I hate being wrong, so unless I'm 100% sure I'm right, I may not answer. I know I'm not alone in that, so don't take it personally. Depending on what level you're teaching, I actually sort of like group work. If you just ask a big group of students about a specimen, they'll probably clam up.

We had an awesome pathologist last year who would get us to put ourselve into little groups of three or four students and each group would take a specimen. After a couple minutes to discuss it, we'd have to present our specimen, give a morphologic diagnosis and if we could, throw out some ideas of cause. She took it a step at a time, was super encouraging, and if we really couldn't think of anything, she'd just tell us "Desribe what you see." And then she'd show us how to turn that basic description into a morph dx.

I can also agree with whoever said about the zebras. I like a balance of bizarre and common. Probably 90/10? 90% common cases so I know what to expect in practice, but then 10% totally weird and wonderful things that remind you why you went into vet med (coolest thing seen to date - fluorescent goat brain).

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Totally understandable. I try to pick mostly common things with a few cool "gee-whizzers" in the second year lab so they get a taste of everything.

Of course though, in fourth year when we oversee necropsy, it sort of depends what the caseload is.

Definitely hear you on the histories. Sometimes that's hard on our end, too - we rely on the hx given to us by the referrings, which are sometimes quite scant

 

[Armymutt25A]

I would suggest keeping it relevant to what is going on in lecture. I'm not sure how you're set up, but our path lab periods are split between some microscope time and some sitting in a necropsy theater looking at recent cases. I get a little out of it, but then, it's not really my area of interest. I prefer a first name basis. Be cognizant of the time of the lab. Our is Thurs afternoon - not exactly the best time of the week to expect motivated students, especially when about half of us have surgery the next day. Some of our residents like to try to tease an answer out of us when we ask a question. I'd rather you tell me what I'm not seeing rather than have a 10 minute silent conversation. As long as you realize that some people see path as a means to an end, and don't share your enthusiasm, you'll be fine. It's the same way when I teach scuba. Have to be able to read the crowd.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Definitely. I don't try to automatically make everyone LOVE pathology I realize it is a special discipline. However, I expect the same from the fourth years. Don't pout, don't shirk, don't talk about how it's gross - I won't make you love it, but I expect you to put on a smile and do the work, you know?

I more try to help students understand how pathology is applicable to them, even if you never do another necropsy again in your life (which is unlikely, you're always gonna have that client that shows up with a dead animal and expects you to figure it out!). Also in terms of biopsy - teaching the students how to describe lesions is sooo important when they become clinicians and will be sending stuff to me. 'Mass on liver" doesn't help me if the slide is vague. But "a firm, umbilicated, mottled brown to tan mass that bulges on cut section: is MUCH more helpful. Heck even in terms of surgery - you're doing an exploratory on the dog and see white nodules on the pancreas. OMG cancer! Well, no, in pathology we show you that that is nodular hyperplasia and no big deal. Or that hemomelasma ilei in a horse can resemble bowel necrosis - don't cut it out! Or osseous metaplasia in the lungs - no, it's not a metasiasis from somewhere! Stuff like that. Making it applicable to everyone is the key. Being able to see stuff in person that you may only see indirectly for the rest of your career on u/s and rads is always good.

Unfortunately for us, our specimens for lab are simply whatever we have saved from the previous week on the floor. We give hx and all that stuff, but it does not always correlate with what the students see in the microscope part of the class. I wish there was a way around that, but there really isn't. We actually put out gross specimens and the students have 20 minutes or so to walk around and describe them. Then we all go over them as a group for the rest of the time period. I don't expect them to be able to diagnose in the early labs (cause hey, maybe you haven't seen it yet) but I do expect them to be able to describe and formulate a basic mdx.

 

[Armymutt25A]

Sounds like you have a good plan. Teaching the language is important. Our specimens come from the previous week as well, but we also have a lot of pictures. Hard to crowd 40 people around a tiny table with a beagle heart on it.

 

[Pelagia]

I'm a second year right now taking path lab. When we are looking at slides, I find it very helpful when we have guidance in what to look for. A lot of our lab feels like "alright try to find this abnormality...go!" and I am not sure if what I'm looking at is the correct thing or not. I understand we need to learn to do that on our own...but it's very helpful if after everyone has had a chance to do that, that the abnormalities are pointed out on the overhead TVs. Show us the normal cell, then the pathological changes in the abnormal cell, and show what a gross lesion would look like.