So is there a silver lining?

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Arkangeloid

Arkangeloid

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Lately we've seen a lot of threads bring up issues of increasing debt loads, declining reimbursements, nurse encroachment, etc. It's gotten to the point that some people are questioning their decision to enter medicine.

So I wanted to ask the more educated observers on SDN: do we have reason to be optimistic about anything in medicine in the future? Or are we looking at a career filled with doom-and-gloom and declinism?
 
Arkangeloid said:
Lately we've seen a lot of threads bring up issues of increasing debt loads, declining reimbursements, nurse encroachment, etc. It's gotten to the point that some people are questioning their decision to enter medicine.

So I wanted to ask the more educated observers on SDN: do we have reason to be optimistic about anything in medicine in the future? Or are we looking at a career filled with doom-and-gloom and declinism?
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To me, it's only the econmomics that are in decline. But even that can be countered by a relative widespread decline in which physicians will always be very useful to society.

Medicine wise it's never been better.

Depends on how you want to look at it. And your subjective experience of gloominess. I don't find gloominess to be unsettling at all.

--your highly educated sdn observer. (Interesting criteria to toss out there on a public forum, so that any one responding is self-assuredly masterful in perspective).
 
Forums tend to always have a negative and critical slant. You'll slowly feel pessimistic about your future if you spend too much time on SDN.

No one can accurately predict how things will be by the time you start practicing. Just realize that you probably have it better than the overwhelming majority of Americans.
 
People will always find reasons to complain.
 
Ok...so 2 votes for the silver lining of being able to complain about complainers.

:laugh: have fun with this one OP.
 
There is no silver lining. Everyone who is in med school or has less than 1 year in residency should drop out now and go to PA or nursing school. Even if it doesn't seem like the smartest move right now, we have to keep in mind that the way things are going, PAs and DNPs will make more than MDs by the time anybody in this group is an attending. This isn't just for primary care, as they are already encroaching on even the most hardcore surgical specialties.

If you are one of the stubborn ones that chooses to stay an MD, remember that this trend will only grow exponentially as in the coming years the smartest of us will become midlevels and only idiots will go for an MD. It will become glaringly obvious how obsolete doctors are when all the smartest people are midlevels.
 
Donald Juan said:
There is no silver lining. Everyone who is in med school or has less than 1 year in residency should drop out now and go to PA or nursing school. Even if it doesn't seem like the smartest move right now, we have to keep in mind that the way things are going, PAs and DNPs will make more than MDs by the time anybody in this group is an attending. This isn't just for primary care, as they are already encroaching on even the most hardcore surgical specialties.

If you are one of the stubborn ones that chooses to stay an MD, remember that this trend will only grow exponentially as in the coming years the smartest of us will become midlevels and only idiots will go for an MD. It will become glaringly obvious how obsolete doctors are when all the smartest people are midlevels.
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I approve this.
 
OP - If you need someone to tell you what the silver lining is so that you can justify your own choice, perhaps you should ask someone a little more trustworthy than random people on the internet?
 
Just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance by switching to Geico.
 
Spinach Dip said:
OP - If you need someone to tell you what the silver lining is so that you can justify your own choice, perhaps you should ask someone a little more trustworthy than random people on the internet?
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Ironically, the internet is the one place where people are truly honest with each other. Sure, you get trolls and random unrelated responses, but it still beats the hell out of real life.

I don't really need to justify this choice to myself: medicine might suck, but IMO it's still a much better option than nursing (job market for new nurses is horrible), law (even worse), a PhD (enough said), or other fields. I'm just wondering if there's any upside to being a physician, or if it's all horrible.
 
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Arkangeloid said:
Ironically, the internet is the one place where people are truly honest with each other. Sure, you get trolls and random unrelated responses, but it still beats the hell out of real life.
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WP

I'll add one, then: You will always have a job, and it will always pay well.
 
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I can at least see where OP is coming from. As an incoming MS-1 I'm thankful that SDN has shown me the uglier sides to medicine. It will help with the shock when things arent as rosy when I start school next week. It would be nice to compile some things together that people enjoy about school but the thing is, Its different for everybody. What I find interesting about school, others will hate and so forth....not so easy I guess.
 
Ost3oclast said:
I can at least see where OP is coming from. As an incoming MS-1 I'm thankful that SDN has shown me the uglier sides to medicine. It will help with the shock when things arent as rosy when I start school next week. It would be nice to compile some things together that people enjoy about school but the thing is, Its different for everybody. What I find interesting about school, others will hate and so forth....not so easy I guess.
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You should have went in naive and hopeful and slowly developed your cynicism over time like the rest of us lol. At this rate you'll basically be the grinch by middle of third year
 
madchemist89 said:
Silver is for plebeians.
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is that you lavish?

itslavishbitchig-650x0.png
 
Donald Juan said:
There is no silver lining. Everyone who is in med school or has less than 1 year in residency should drop out now and go to PA or nursing school. Even if it doesn't seem like the smartest move right now, we have to keep in mind that the way things are going, PAs and DNPs will make more than MDs by the time anybody in this group is an attending. This isn't just for primary care, as they are already encroaching on even the most hardcore surgical specialties.
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Is that your plan?

punkedoutriffs said:
Just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance by switching to Geico.
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awesome! I love that little piggy in the commercials.


OP: I'm rather fortunate in that I didn't get into medicine for money or even to help others. It's just a career path I instinctively know is what I should be doing, thinking critically about important life-altering decisions...what will make me want to wake up in the morning and go to work. That simple.
 
ECkayak said:
You should have went in naive and hopeful and slowly developed your cynicism over time like the rest of us lol. At this rate you'll basically be the grinch by middle of third year
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Hahahaha well dang....
 
Anastomoses said:
OP: I'm rather fortunate in that I didn't get into medicine for money or even to help others. It's just a career path I instinctively know is what I should be doing, thinking critically about important life-altering decisions...what will make me want to wake up in the morning and go to work. That simple.
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This is all you ever say. We get it, you're a saint.
 
The Allopathic forum never ceases to amaze me. It's amazing how you go from all the naive pre-meds in Pre-Allopathic who are hell bent on working for free and never mention the "M" word to normal people in this forum.
 
On the bright side, Medicine is more "livable" than ever before. Want jobs 8am to 5pm no call and no weekends? Theres a job for you. Want to be a surgeon and not work 60+ hrs a week? You can do that too.

These changes have occurred for a variety of reasons: women entering medicine in higher numbers, bigger practices which allows for more flexibility at a cost of autonomy, etc
 
Arkangeloid said:
I don't really need to justify this choice to myself: medicine might suck, but IMO it's still a much better option than nursing (job market for new nurses is horrible), law (even worse), a PhD (enough said), or other fields. I'm just wondering if there's any upside to being a physician, or if it's all horrible.
Click to expand...

Find the right field and being at work doing your job is fun. Yes, you don't get as much money as docs did in the past, and the paperwork and stupid certifications will drive you crazy. But the day to day practice of medicine is (can be) fun.
 
The silver lining is that you alone can make more money than literally 90% of all US households, even in FM or IM. And you'll probably never be out of a job unless you screw up massively.
 
circulus vitios said:
The silver lining is that you alone can make more money than literally 90% of all US households, even in FM or IM. And you'll probably never be out of a job unless you screw up massively.
Click to expand...

Or go into path apparently 🙁
 
punkedoutriffs said:
Or go into path apparently 🙁
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It sucks that there are no real analyses on specialty job markets. Instead you have biased studies put out by piece of **** interest groups, or collections of sparse anecdotes. I have an uneducated feeling that pathology is like anything else: booming in some markets, completely dead in others...but who knows, right?
 
Arkangeloid said:
So I wanted to ask the more educated observers on SDN: do we have reason to be optimistic about anything in medicine in the future? Or are we looking at a career filled with doom-and-gloom and declinism?
Click to expand...

Medicine is going from being a lower upper class job to a middle class job- the silver lining is that 20 years from now, being a doctor will be one of the few middle class jobs left.
 
michaelrack said:
Medicine is going from being a lower upper class job to a middle class job- the silver lining is that 20 years from now, being a doctor will be one of the few middle class jobs left.
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Seriously. In this day and age, thats a very good thing.
 
michaelrack said:
Medicine is going from being a lower upper class job to a middle class job- the silver lining is that 20 years from now, being a doctor will be one of the few middle class jobs left.
Click to expand...

I think this might be a definition thing...I would define "middle class" (not "upper middle class") as roughly 70-140K before taxes, which not a lot of full time physicians would fall into.

Then again, loans and a decade of lost income+investments hurt physicians a LOT.
 
Maybe there is none, except if you find that medicine is the most engaging, fulfilling, challenging, values-aligned way that you can possibly use your particular strengths in a professional capacity. And if you can live with a more-than-adequate but not filthy-rich level of compensation. I continue to be grateful for my path, as do my physician mentors and primary care physican mom, 25 years into practice. Otherwise, you're bright and capable, find something more rewarding to do.
 
Arkangeloid said:
I think this might be a definition thing...I would define "middle class" (not "upper middle class") as roughly 70-140K before taxes, which not a lot of full time physicians would fall into.

Then again, loans and a decade of lost income+investments hurt physicians a LOT.
Click to expand...

Yep. Depends a lot on where you live too. Where I'm from, you could live a pretty good upper middle class lifestyle on 100k+.In California, I'm sure it wouldn't go very far.
 
Anastomoses said:
I don't get it. What's saintly about that? Stop projecting your guilt.
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I AM NOT IN IT FOR DA MONEYS.

Tell me - if Medicine (regardless of specialty) paid a 70k/year salary, would you still do it? My primary focus isn't money, but to say that it has had no factor on my choice is something I would never say, and something I would strongly re-think.

It's all well and good that you went in this for knowledge (and oddly and unsaintly enough, not about "helping others"), but please consider my proposition above and see if your answer is the same. If it is, then THAT is some mother teresa level stuff.
 
evilbooyaa said:
Tell me - if Medicine (regardless of specialty) paid a 70k/year salary, would you still do it?
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If it came with no debt, and did not require a 3-8 year residency...... YES.



But wouldn't that be called dental/veterinary/pharmacy school? (y'know, except for the whole no-debt thing)
 
Spinach Dip said:
If it came with no debt, and did not require a 3-8 year residency...... YES.



But wouldn't that be called dental/veterinary/pharmacy school? (y'know, except for the whole no-debt thing)
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Theoretically -

No debt, but still the 3-7 year residency. What has an 8-year residency (not including fellowship(s)?)
 
Spinach Dip said:
If it came with no debt, and did not require a 3-8 year residency...... YES.



But wouldn't that be called dental/veterinary/pharmacy school? (y'know, except for the whole no-debt thing)
Click to expand...

No, dental and pharm school pay double that. more if you are a specialist. do your research.
 
Arkangeloid said:
I think this might be a definition thing...I would define "middle class" (not "upper middle class") as roughly 70-140K before taxes, which not a lot of full time physicians would fall into.

Then again, loans and a decade of lost income+investments hurt physicians a LOT.
Click to expand...

My definition of middle class is a little lower than yours (40-110k), and most full-time physicians aren't there....yet. But I think they will be 20 years from now (in inflation-adjusted salary), but most of the rest of the population will be doing much worse.
 
I got into medicine cuz I'm from a middle class family and had no extraordinary talent or realistic opportunity to attain any higher aspirations. It's an honest job with interesting subject matter that pays well, gets social kudos, and gives me good job security. That's my honest personal statement. Who's with me?
 
michaelrack said:
My definition of middle class is a little lower than yours (40-110k), and most full-time physicians aren't there....yet. But I think they will be 20 years from now (in inflation-adjusted salary), but most of the rest of the population will be doing much worse.
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Bro (I know you're much older), those are like conditions for real civil unrest.
 
punkedoutriffs said:
I got into medicine cuz I'm from a middle class family and had no extraordinary talent or realistic opportunity to attain any higher aspirations. It's an honest job with interesting subject matter that pays well, gets social kudos, and gives me good job security. That's my honest personal statement. Who's with me?
Click to expand...

+1 This is me. I considered engineering for all the same reasons, except they were watered down in comparison. And I don't want to sit at a desk.
 
punkedoutriffs said:
I got into medicine cuz I'm from a middle class family and had no extraordinary talent or realistic opportunity to attain any higher aspirations. It's an honest job with interesting subject matter that pays well, gets social kudos, and gives me good job security. That's my honest personal statement. Who's with me?
Click to expand...
Yup, same here.
 
punkedoutriffs said:
I got into medicine cuz I'm from a middle class family and had no extraordinary talent or realistic opportunity to attain any higher aspirations. It's an honest job with interesting subject matter that pays well, gets social kudos, and gives me good job security. That's my honest personal statement. Who's with me?
Click to expand...

Thats why I got into it.
 
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