so upset

[nunovits]

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this past week has been really hard. i am bewildered about what happened with the match. i interviewed at mayo, dartmouth, st. lukes/roosevelt, nyu, cleveland clinic/metro health for obgyn and did not match. i scored 224/91 on boards, good research etc, but i only ranked 4 programs because i thought something would work out with one of my favorite places. then i did not even match. i did get a position at university of buffalo and i am wondering if anyone can help me understand why things went wrong and also, does anyone know anything about the program at UB and if so, what the faculty, residents and training is like. thanks for any help.

 

[googled]

The match is unpredictable. We're told at our med school to apply broadly, consider the competitiveness of the field and your own competitiveness. Except for the ultra competitive fields like Derm, Ophtho, etc., consider about 25 programs, apply to 20 or so, anticipate to interview 10-15, and rank around 10-12.

We had a MD/Phd student a few yrs back that didn't match. She was "promised" a spot at a program and therefore didn't rank many programs (<4 maybe?). Guess what, she didn't match, had to scramble in to a spot...
So doesn't matter how hot you think you are in terms of scores, etc., you have to play the numbers and play it safe.

That's exactly what I did, although over did it a little. Applied 30 programs (from the Yales, to the Harvards, to some state programs), invites to about 20-22, went to 15-16 interviews, ranked 14, got in one of my top 3 in anesthesia.

Others I've heard in the past and this year that didn't match either did not apply to many programs, did not rank many programs, or limited their applications to a geographic area only. You must think and apply broadly in terms of geography and caliber of program. 4-5 programs aren't gonna cut it...

 

[Museless]

ITA with googled. "They" - aka the powers that be at school - told us the #1 reason students go unmatched is ranking too few programs. Supposedly, that's the same reason most unfilled programs ended up that way. I'm glad you found something, and hope it works out better than what you wanted anyway. 🙂

 

[Mirror Form]

but i only ranked 4 programs because i thought something would work out with one of my favorite places

You just answered your own question! Those places you interviewed at were good programs, so you can't expect to just rank a few and definitely match. It's important to rank a range of tier I, II, and III programs, in order to ensure matching somewhere.

 

[Furrball]

But remember to only rank places where you want to live. I really, really wanted to match at a certain program for family reasons. The PD thought I had a good chance, I thought I had a good chance, I had an excellent interview. I was dumbstruck when I opened the letter to find a matched someplace -- a very good someplace, better than my top choice -- else. I e-mailed the PD and she was surprised that I didn't match at her program. It goes to show that there is a degree of randomness in the whole system that nobody controls.

 

[hello23]

I e-mailed the PD and she was surprised that I didn't match at her program. It goes to show that there is a degree of randomness in the whole system that nobody controls.

Or, that PD jus pretended that she was surprised.

 

[nunovits]

thank you everyone for all of your feedback. i really appreciate it. now on to the next question, has anyone heard anything about the obgyn program at university of buffalo? thanks again.

 

[Museless]

Or, that PD jus pretended that she was surprised.

Agreed. What was she supposed to say, we didn't rank you very highly because we had so many stronger applicants? PD's know where an applicant was on their rank list, if they remember you. I think she was being polite.

 

[Goober]

classic med student mistake- over estimated your chances in a relatively easy specialty to match in. I am surprised your med school did not advise you about ranking enough programs. Your credentials are not bad but certainly not good enough to warrant ranking only 4 programs. When I went to med school we had a guy ranked top 5 in the class with 240 on the boards from a top 15 med school. He applied to peds and was so confident in his ability to match he only ranked one program which assured him that he was one of their top choices. Guess what - he didn't match and ended up at a very weak program compared to his credentials.

 

[CambieMD]

classic med student mistake- over estimated your chances in a relatively easy specialty to match in. I am surprised your med school did not advise you about ranking enough programs. Your credentials are not bad but certainly not good enough to warrant ranking only 4 programs. When I went to med school we had a guy ranked top 5 in the class with 240 on the boards from a top 15 med school. He applied to peds and was so confident in his ability to match he only ranked one program which assured him that he was one of their top choices. Guess what - he didn't match and ended up at a very weak program compared to his credentials.

Medical students should view the application process for what it is some times , a crap shoot. The pd mentioned earlier obviously knew that that guy/girl would not match at her program. After she spoke to him/her she met better candidates. Residency is a job. Programs hire the person who they feel represents the best fit for them. The obsession with board scores gives some a false sense of security. Unless a program is a complete dive it should be ranked.

That is my advice to applicants for next years match. And also , never make plans based on what a pd tells you. They can tell you anything.

CambieMD

 

[doc05]

obviously, you ranked too few programs. no sense in complaining about your own foolishness. good luck at Buffalo.

 

[Museless]

There's another nugget of wisdom in this situation. Picture yourself back in your residency interviews. The PD asks you if you'll rank the program highly. Show of hands..... who said "ah, no, this program's actually more of a "safety" for me, and I'm hoping not to end up here." Anyone? Bueller?

Didn't think so... guess what... PD's LIE TOO. Don't believe anything they tell you until that contract hits your desk. Seriously, read Iserson, read something... just read.

 

[Koko]

Where was the student's advisor? While students should know better, the advisor most certainly knows not to rank such a short list.

 

[MD'05]

this past week has been really hard. i am bewildered about what happened with the match. i interviewed at mayo, dartmouth, st. lukes/roosevelt, nyu, cleveland clinic/metro health for obgyn and did not match. i scored 224/91 on boards, good research etc, but i only ranked 4 programs because i thought something would work out with one of my favorite places. then i did not even match. i did get a position at university of buffalo and i am wondering if anyone can help me understand why things went wrong and also, does anyone know anything about the program at UB and if so, what the faculty, residents and training is like. thanks for any help.

You did not rank enough programs and 224 is not that great of a score. People have amazing board scores and AOA status this year. It was crazy!

 

[Furrball]

Or, that PD jus pretended that she was surprised.

Maybe but she went to a lot of effort to reassure me; it would be very easy to be polite and noncommital.

 

[cjw0918]

To the OP, I'm sorry your match day didn't go as planned. I ended up with my #3 choice after practically being promised my #2 choice. I think PDs want to keep as many options open as possible and therefore tell students postive things. My number one choice said I was in their "upper group." Unfortunately, their upper group could have included fifty people- who knows? Hopefully you will like Buffalo and remember it's just four years. Good luck.

 

[Furrball]

It's also important to remember that there is an element of randomness in the whole thing. A friend of mine ranked the #58 program in his field as his first choice and the #3 program as his seventh choice. He matched at his seventh choice, the #3 ranked program in the country. If the program ranks you at teh very top or the very bottom it's easy to predict, but if you -- like many of us -- are in the middle of the pack then matching becomes dependent on how well other people do. After the match I was talking with my mentor and he confirmed that at a point it's random -- and he is one of the assistant residency program directors for medicine here.

You can work the system, plan, plot, and scheme your rank list, but in the end you get in a handbasket, get cumfy and go for a ride.

 

[Furrball]

You did not rank enough programs and 224 is not that great of a score. People have amazing board scores and AOA status this year. It was crazy!

I think there was some over generous self reporting. The board scores are based on a normal distribution, so a 224 is comparable to a 224 from other years. AOA status, you have to be in the top 10% of your class, by definition a limited number of people; e.g. we all can't be above average. I think a 224 is a fine score and more than half of all of the students who took step 1 would love to have that score.

 

[gynecologist]

hi there! congratulations!
so, please tell me, how many slots were there for the scramble in SUNY-Buffalo? i am condident that you made the right decision and move!
as for me, i am, too, an incoming 'neophyte' to the program. was with a smaller program down south and decided to interview and take the position offered to me for the second year slot this july/aug 2005.
let me share to you my experience:
Interviews:
There were 4 of us who came for the PGY-2 position. all were from New York and US grads, except for me. We met with the Chairman and the program directors. They were all nice and very professional. They are very pleasant and very cerebral, too. Went throught all the "interview questions". The session was like an hour or so. Very nice.
Then we went out to lunch with the current and in-coming chief residents and other residents. All were very cordial and warm. All are praising the program. And I beleive they were truthful and honest with their assessment of the program.
Didactics:
Did the interview in a Wednesday, the didactic day for them. To say the least, I am impressed with the speakers and the interest of the residents about the topics.
Addendum:
you can check out www.scutwork.com for further details aobut the program. Good reflective review there.

Please tell me about the living condition there in Buffalo. Any good apartments you know? (with washer/dryer connection, garage, reasonably-economical, etc.) Which part of the city is safe and very close to the hospital(s)?

Hope to see you there ! God bless!

But I just want this out: It is very hard for me to leave my present program. Since I feel that I am in a family, and I sincerely appreciate their respect, kindness and generosity they have shown me.

 

[NinerNiner999]

obviously, you ranked too few programs. no sense in complaining about your own foolishness. good luck at Buffalo.

Yeah really - you ranked four programs - FOUR!?!?! Have fun at Buffalo and I hope this humbles you a little! 😉 j/k sorry for the outcome but the important thing is that you will be an OB/GYN...

 

[Weil-Felix]

Yeah really - you ranked four programs - FOUR!?!?!

Seriously, though, it's not THAT outrageous for someone to only rank four programs in a less competitive specialty. Granted, it sounds like the reason the OP ranked so few was because they were a little over-confident. A bad idea, certainly, if there are other places that you would be willing to do residency, but just don't think those places are quite prestigious enough.

BUT, sometimes people only rank a few because they are limited geographically, and would rather take a year off to do research than be separated from family. I was in that situation last year when I went through the match....my significant other was already doing residency and I only applied to programs within a few hours drive of that location, which turned out to be only 5 programs. I got a few comments from classmates about how "I must be awfully confident" do be only ranking 5 places, but that wasn't the reason I was doing it. I would just rather have done research for a year and apply again than be more than 8 hours apart from my husband. Thankfully, I did not have to do that. Just wanted to remind folks that there are a lot of factors that go into preparing a rank order list, and sometimes people have good reasons for ranking only a few programs.

 

[GeneGoddess]

I think there was some over generous self reporting. The board scores are based on a normal distribution, so a 224 is comparable to a 224 from other years. AOA status, you have to be in the top 10% of your class, by definition a limited number of people; e.g. we all can't be above average. I think a 224 is a fine score and more than half of all of the students who took step 1 would love to have that score.

Actually, the score average has gone up over the years. I took step 1 in 1997 and was in the 65-70%ile (they published those then). But the average step 1 score now is much higher, and my "good" score is now "average". When I took it, they had JUST raised the passing score from 172 to 176. I believe that the passing score is now 184 or something. So the average has changed over the years.

 

[nunovits]

thank you for taking the time to respond to my thread. all of this has happened so quickly and has been so stressful. i am really happy to have the spot. i am not certain about living arrangements, but i have relatives in the area and will be finding out more info. i would be glad to share when i have more info. thanks again. i look forward to meeting you.

hi there! congratulations!
so, please tell me, how many slots were there for the scramble in SUNY-Buffalo? i am condident that you made the right decision and move!
as for me, i am, too, an incoming 'neophyte' to the program. was with a smaller program down south and decided to interview and take the position offered to me for the second year slot this july/aug 2005.
let me share to you my experience:
Interviews:
There were 4 of us who came for the PGY-2 position. all were from New York and US grads, except for me. We met with the Chairman and the program directors. They were all nice and very professional. They are very pleasant and very cerebral, too. Went throught all the "interview questions". The session was like an hour or so. Very nice.
Then we went out to lunch with the current and in-coming chief residents and other residents. All were very cordial and warm. All are praising the program. And I beleive they were truthful and honest with their assessment of the program.
Didactics:
Did the interview in a Wednesday, the didactic day for them. To say the least, I am impressed with the speakers and the interest of the residents about the topics.
Addendum:
you can check out www.scutwork.com for further details aobut the program. Good reflective review there.

Please tell me about the living condition there in Buffalo. Any good apartments you know? (with washer/dryer connection, garage, reasonably-economical, etc.) Which part of the city is safe and very close to the hospital(s)?

Hope to see you there ! God bless!

But I just want this out: It is very hard for me to leave my present program. Since I feel that I am in a family, and I sincerely appreciate their respect, kindness and generosity they have shown me.

 

[Furrball]

Actually, the score average has gone up over the years. I took step 1 in 1997 and was in the 65-70%ile (they published those then). But the average step 1 score now is much higher, and my "good" score is now "average". When I took it, they had JUST raised the passing score from 172 to 176. I believe that the passing score is now 184 or something. So the average has changed over the years.

I have my step 2 ck next to me... hmm... passing is now 182. Nonetheless a score in the 220's is above average and therefore better than more than half of everyone else who takes the exam. In my mind that is nothing to denegrate.

 

[scootad.]

Nonetheless a score in the 220's is above average and therefore better than more than half of everyone else who takes the exam.

Not to nitpick, but actually, that would be true if your talking median, but is not necessarily true for mean (average).

 

[GeneGoddess]

I have my step 2 ck next to me... hmm... passing is now 182. Nonetheless a score in the 220's is above average and therefore better than more than half of everyone else who takes the exam. In my mind that is nothing to denegrate.

I wasn't trying to denegrate your score (I consider the USMLE to be a poor judge of the overall competence of a physician). And I'm sorry to hear that you had to scramble. I ranked 13 of the 16 programs I interviewed with, just because I was so afraid of not matching. I didn't WANT to go to #13, but I would have rather gone there than not match (devil you know vs/ devil you don't). But I'm glad that you managed to match somewhere! Good luck in Buffalo. Buy some WARM coats!

 

[marikaclare]

i'm a fourth year at Buffalo and I know a bit about the ob/gyn residency...the residents are awesome and seem to enjoy eachother, the attendings are great, there is diversity between hospitals (suburban population, urban population), research is out there if you want it. its not too malignant..I think they even get a golden weekend every month. living in buffalo is really affordable - there is culture but you have to look for it. i would recommend living near children's hospital (its a beautiful area, near fun restaurants/shops) or North Buffalo (near delaware park)...if you have a family or prefer the suburbs - check out Williamsville or Amherst. i highly recommend a garage...as the snow is remarkable some years. good luck...i think you will be happy!!

 

[Furrball]

Not to nitpick, but actually, that would be true if your talking median, but is not necessarily true for mean (average).

No they give you your score, the mean, the standard deviation, and the standard error of measurement. I have my score report for step 2 ck on my desk. The mean is normally around 215 -218ish. On my step 2 report the mean is 218 with an SD of 23. Remember the SD is calculated using the mean (x bar).

 

[impetigo]

but i only ranked 4 programs because i thought something would work out with one of my favorite places. then i did not even match.

You don't understand how ranking only four programs without any backups was a poor decision and is warned against multiple times by NRMP and probably your school?

You gambled and lost, what do you not understand?

 

[DasN]

You don't understand how ranking only four programs without any backups was a poor decision and is warned against multiple times by NRMP and probably your school?

You gambled and lost, what do you not understand?

Do you have somekind of a brain problem?

 

[BellKicker]

But remember to only rank places where you want to live. I really, really wanted to match at a certain program for family reasons. The PD thought I had a good chance, I thought I had a good chance, I had an excellent interview. I was dumbstruck when I opened the letter to find a matched someplace -- a very good someplace, better than my top choice -- else. I e-mailed the PD and she was surprised that I didn't match at her program. It goes to show that there is a degree of randomness in the whole system that nobody controls.

Furrball, your story highlights something that bugs me about the match. I hate the way people blame the match (as if the match were some random process) for the unpredictability of it. I'm not talking about you; I'm taking about the PD who was nice to you. Bottom line is that she didn't rank you high enough for you to match. You were a back-up and he/she knows that. But because of the magical match she can now act surprised? You should be more pissed than you are that this PD told you you had a good shot all the while he was moving your name down the list. she lied to you.

Without the match, she would have had to write you a letter or rejection, maybe even explaining why you didn't get the job. With the match she can just blame it on the ghost in the machine.

Anyway, congratulations on matching in a great program.

 

[CambieMD]

Furrball, your story highlights something that bugs me about the match. I hate the way people blame the match (as if the match were some random process) for the unpredictability of it. I'm not talking about you; I'm taking about the PD who was nice to you. Bottom line is that she didn't rank you high enough for you to match. You were a back-up and he/she knows that. But because of the magical match she can now act surprised? You should be more pissed than you are that this PD told you you had a good shot all the while he was moving your name down the list. she lied to you.

Without the match, she would have had to write you a letter or rejection, maybe even explaining why you didn't get the job. With the match she can just blame it on the ghost in the machine.

Anyway, congratulations on matching in a great program.

The match may sound complex but it boils down to med students looking for jobs and programs employees. So you didn't get hired why get upset. Ranking a smaller number of programs reduces your chances of being selected by a program. The take home lesson if it isn't in writing you have nothing.


CambieMD

 

[criminallyinane]

BUT, sometimes people only rank a few because they are limited geographically, and would rather take a year off to do research than be separated from family. I was in that situation last year when I went through the match....my significant other was already doing residency and I only applied to programs within a few hours drive of that location, which turned out to be only 5 programs. I got a few comments from classmates about how "I must be awfully confident" do be only ranking 5 places, but that wasn't the reason I was doing it. I would just rather have done research for a year and apply again than be more than 8 hours apart from my husband. Thankfully, I did not have to do that. Just wanted to remind folks that there are a lot of factors that go into preparing a rank order list, and sometimes people have good reasons for ranking only a few programs.

Yeah, but it's pretty clear that the OP wasn't motivated by geography since those programs are literally all over the map. Nobody finds it odd to rank just a few programs if you are limited by geography. I know someone who ranked just one (!) program because his wife early matched at the same institution, and he got it. If he hadn't, I doubt anybody would have judged him for being "pompous", it's just that this is the only program where he can be with his wife. There is no other program within a few hours from there. Luckily, he got it!

But when someone only ranks "top" programs cause they think they'll get one, they're kind of asking for disaster. Sure, lots of people get one of their top 4, but lots of people don't, too, so why leave something like this to chance? Investigate enough programs, know where you will be happy, and rank enough places so that you KNOW you will be at a place you have investigated and are satisfied with... not scrambling into a random program!

 

[Furrball]

Furrball, your story highlights something that bugs me about the match. I hate the way people blame the match (as if the match were some random process) for the unpredictability of it. I'm not talking about you; I'm taking about the PD who was nice to you. Bottom line is that she didn't rank you high enough for you to match. You were a back-up and he/she knows that. But because of the magical match she can now act surprised? You should be more pissed than you are that this PD told you you had a good shot all the while he was moving your name down the list. she lied to you.

Without the match, she would have had to write you a letter or rejection, maybe even explaining why you didn't get the job. With the match she can just blame it on the ghost in the machine.

Anyway, congratulations on matching in a great program.

I realize what you say is true. The programs are trying to get the best people they can to fill their spots. I think she was surprised at how well they did, e.g. someone like me would normally have matched there. This program's neighbor is a very perstigious and competitive place -- didn't match there either 😀 . My thought is that power couples trying to couples match at the neighbor bumped off strong but not power-applicants like myself. Also, I would like to be clear that she made of point of not promising anything. I was only told that I was a strong applicant. That is why I had nine programs listed on the match for IM, from top 10 to definitely fourth-tier.