So what are you doing with all that money ?

[Tenk]

I consider myself lucky, but I don't think we have as many options as our parents' generation, whether or not they took advantage of them. The baby bust and baby boomers lived through the greatest period of wealth accumulation in our nation's history, and there were so many more jobs that were enjoyable and that paid enough to make a living wage that just don't exist anymore- publishing, media, academia etc. And we are also living in a very anti-intellectual, anti- expert era.

EM is just punching a clock with corporate overlords who tell us what to do. Not my dream. It pays the bills until we get diabetes from night shifts, I guess.

It would be nice to have the option of an enjoyable, meaningful job that paid. Just harder in our generation.

Sorry you don’t like your job. I love mine. Maybe you should change jobs? Good EM jobs do exist despite the nay sayers. Even if you take a small pay cut a lot of times it’s worth the savings in sanity.

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[miacomet]

Sorry you don’t like your job. I love mine. Maybe you should change jobs? Good EM jobs do exist despite the nay sayers. Even if you take a small pay cut a lot of times it’s worth the savings in sanity.

I have a decent EM job. I just hate nights, weekends, and holidays, and for me it's hard to defend a career which involves so much violence, disrespect and liability, and is so little appreciated.

I'm glad others like their jobs.

 

[cyanide12345678]

there is no point to compare yourself to the poorest of the poor, the unluckiest of the unlucky.

There's a huge difference between being in top 1% rich, and feeling rich.

My net worth is no where near the top 1 percent rich. Grew up in a family of middle class to upper middle class. Never really was poor, but spent a few years in college where I refused financial support from family and felt really poor when I was on a ramen noodle diet.

In 10 years I have gone from eating ramen noodles everyday to being at a point where I don't have to think of what I'm buying at a super market or how often I'm eating out. Even though I'm still a pgy3, it feels pretty damn good to be where I'm at. I'm definitely not rich, but looking back, I feel so much richer than I was 10 years ago. It really is all about perspective.

 

[cyanide12345678]

I have a decent EM job. I just hate nights, weekends, and holidays, and for me it's hard to defend a career which involves so much violence, disrespect and liability, and is so little appreciated.

I'm glad others like their jobs.

How did you end up in EM hating nights and weekends? Agreed with violence and disrespect, we have terrible disrespectful patients that other specialties won't allow through their doors. But I guess some one has to take care of those people too.

 

[anbuitachi]

Which is exactly why I feel pity for people that have views like you. You lack perspective. Go try to gain some. If you’re brave enough.

views like mine? that feeling rich is about perspective? you sound like you think everyone had a better life than you did growing up or something. perhaps you are the one who lacks perspective.
and what perspective do you want me to gain? i grew up in a third world country. im an immigrant. i know what i feels like to be poor, to not have running water, electricity, or a bathroom in your living quarters. i mean sure you can say, hey you dont know what it feels like to starve for a MONTH in a row and make it out ALIVE, then yea perhaps i need perspective in that regard. everyone grew up in different environments, with different perspectives. i never had my stereo robbed, cause i never had one. my windshields never been broken either, cause ive never owned a car in my life

My net worth is no where near the top 1 percent rich. Grew up in a family of middle class to upper middle class. Never really was poor, but spent a few years in college where I refused financial support from family and felt really poor when I was on a ramen noodle diet.

In 10 years I have gone from eating ramen noodles everyday to being at a point where I don't have to think of what I'm buying at a super market or how often I'm eating out. Even though I'm still a pgy3, it feels pretty damn good to be where I'm at. I'm definitely not rich, but looking back, I feel so much richer than I was 10 years ago. It really is all about perspective.

Yep it is.

 

[jw3600]

I consider myself lucky, but I don't think we have as many options as our parents' generation, whether or not they chose to take advantage of them. The baby bust and baby boomers lived through the greatest period of wealth accumulation in our nation's history, and there were so many more jobs that were enjoyable and that paid enough to make a living wage that just don't exist anymore- publishing, media, academia etc. And we are also living in a very anti-intellectual, anti- expert era.

EM is just punching a clock with corporate overlords who tell us what to do. Not my dream. It pays the bills until we get diabetes from night shifts, I guess.

It would be nice to have the option of an enjoyable, meaningful job that paid. Just harder in our generation.

Ok now imagine everything you don’t like about your life on 1/5 the salary. You see what people are saying?

 

[miacomet]

Ok now imagine everything you don’t like about your life on 1/5 the salary. You see what people are saying?

Yes, I agree. It's a reasonably (although not terribly) highly paid vo-tech job. Nothing wrong with that, and there aren't that many other great options in today's economy.

 

[dchristismi]

"It is better to be lucky than good." -Dad.

My parents are solidly middle class, and our family vacations involved driving halfway across the country to see my grandparents and national parks. And I figure I won the birth lottery, so no complaining here. I am very, very lucky in many regards.

Getting close enough to FI that I have enacted my retire-from-"general"-EM plan, and it will probably be this year.
I discovered that I actually do love medicine again... which means I'm probably not going to truly retire, and probably not even FatFIRE, which was sort of the plan. The ironic bit is that in my career shift, I am working far more days than I ever did in EM, but they're SO much easier. Not to mention shorter. Wake up when I wake up. Go in, talk about living, dying, priorities, ice cream, see my 3-12 patients, manage their meds, go home. Do yoga. Run marathons. Plan travel. Europe yearly, and we're heading to Bhutan in 3 weeks. Try to be better about living mindfully and simply. (Which is freaking hard to do in our society.) I now actively practice Stoicism, and that's been a game changer, too.

Husband talks about retiring in 3 years - he stepped back to slightly less than full time this year...if they actually let him... and in the same breath talks about going into business with his brother.
I'm still trying to sort in my head the idea of my "retirement career" - I mean, I have to do *something* with my life, and I really love my hospice patients. But it's a different mindset. Although they keep asking, I don't really see myself going back to full-time anything. (Even though I am technically working full time at this point, the irony of which is not lost on me.) Once you're salary, you get sucked into meetings and administration and other commitments. Made that mistake once, and not doing it again. I really, really love having control of my work and my life.

Student loans have been gone a long time. House (yeah, it's too big and it's on a lake, but it's the best view ever) will be paid off this year, and we don't live extravagantly, with just over 7 figures in retirement accounts, not counting real estate.
Aside from the 4 years of alimony (which was still cheaper than staying in the marriage would have been), I've been diligent about saving, and I don't drink expensive wine. Wine yes. Travel to wine regions? Absolutely. Wineries? Duh. But I still usually drink the cheap stuff. (Ideally, a 3€ Montepulciano that I picked up with some groceries to take back to the AirBNB...) But as noted above, not having to worry about buying groceries is actually a pretty powerful thing. I still clip coupons, though.

I do not, however, drink cheap scotch. A girl's gotta have some standards.

 

[miacomet]

"It is better to be lucky than good." -Dad.

My parents are solidly middle class, and our family vacations involved driving halfway across the country to see my grandparents and national parks. And I figure I won the birth lottery, so no complaining here. I am very, very lucky in many regards.

Getting close enough to FI that I have enacted my retire-from-"general"-EM plan, and it will probably be this year.
I discovered that I actually do love medicine again... which means I'm probably not going to truly retire, and probably not even FatFIRE, which was sort of the plan. The ironic bit is that in my career shift, I am working far more days than I ever did in EM, but they're SO much easier. Not to mention shorter. Wake up when I wake up. Go in, talk about living, dying, priorities, ice cream, see my 3-12 patients, manage their meds, go home. Do yoga. Run marathons. Plan travel. Europe yearly, and we're heading to Bhutan in 3 weeks. Try to be better about living mindfully and simply. (Which is freaking hard to do in our society.) I now actively practice Stoicism, and that's been a game changer, too.

Husband talks about retiring in 3 years - he stepped back to slightly less than full time this year...if they actually let him... and in the same breath talks about going into business with his brother.
I'm still trying to sort in my head the idea of my "retirement career" - I mean, I have to do *something* with my life, and I really love my hospice patients. But it's a different mindset. Although they keep asking, I don't really see myself going back to full-time anything. (Even though I am technically working full time at this point, the irony of which is not lost on me.) Once you're salary, you get sucked into meetings and administration and other commitments. Made that mistake once, and not doing it again. I really, really love having control of my work and my life.

Student loans have been gone a long time. House (yeah, it's too big and it's on a lake, but it's the best view ever) will be paid off this year, and we don't live extravagantly, with just over 7 figures in retirement accounts, not counting real estate.
Aside from the 4 years of alimony (which was still cheaper than staying in the marriage would have been), I've been diligent about saving, and I don't drink expensive wine. Wine yes. Travel to wine regions? Absolutely. Wineries? Duh. But I still usually drink the cheap stuff. (Ideally, a 3€ Montepulciano that I picked up with some groceries to take back to the AirBNB...) But as noted above, not having to worry about buying groceries is actually a pretty powerful thing. I still clip coupons, though.

I do not, however, drink cheap scotch. A girl's gotta have some standards.

And this is a good life.

After you buy the nice mattress, it's not going to work long term if it's all about the money.
A good career isn't about making money and then wanting to retire, it's about loving what you do so much that it's better than anything else you could imagine. Better than retiring.
I don't see a ton of that in EM.

Good on you Christismi, as always.

 

[deleted547339]

Gosh, I would hope SOME of us are...it seems the 1% net worth floor is 10 million (admittedly, that's from just a quick Google).

Starting at age 30, I would hope the FI-minded EM doc net worth is 500k by 35 and then 1.5 million by age 40. No one knows how the market will go, but for docs before us, it's not unreasonable to think that by putting away $200K per year for 20 years into 80% VTSAX/20% bond fund, (s)he would be near 10 million at age 60.

Of course, that's for the doc who doesn't have a bunch of kids, toys early in life, student loan payments, and divorces...but there must be SOME of us like this, no?

HH

Ummmm, 200k savings???

 

[doctalaughs]

Here’s the thing- most careers follow a regular progression where as you get more senior, you make more money and have more control over your schedule. Medicine you reach a “plateau” soon after becoming an attending and from there you are only as good as how many patients/shifts you do. In fact, a lot of doctors feel they are losing more and more control over their time as the corporate practice of medicine takes hold in this country. That’s where the unhappiness comes from - not the money or the lack of realizing we are lucky “in comparison”.

 

[Tenk]

views like mine? that feeling rich is about perspective? you sound like you think everyone had a better life than you did growing up or something. perhaps you are the one who lacks perspective.
and what perspective do you want me to gain? i grew up in a third world country. im an immigrant. i know what i feels like to be poor, to not have running water, electricity, or a bathroom in your living quarters. i mean sure you can say, hey you dont know what it feels like to starve for a MONTH in a row and make it out ALIVE, then yea perhaps i need perspective in that regard. everyone grew up in different environments, with different perspectives. i never had my stereo robbed, cause i never had one. my windshields never been broken either, cause ive never owned a car in my life

This post makes almost no sense in context of your first. I know people who grew up in third world countries and immigrated here for residency. They don’t feel rich. They feel like kings. If you actually grew up poor you wouldn’t be arguing with me, you’d be agreeing with me because you’d know how damn lucky you were. Also, I have no idea what you are trying to prove. The point I’m trying to make is that I am THANKFUL for my job and my opportunities that I am fortunate enough to have. Also, you said that you can pretty much buy all the stuff I mentioned which means you’re probably an attending but then you said you’ve never owned a car in your life. You trollin.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

Here’s the thing- most careers follow a regular progression where as you get more senior, you make more money and have more control over your schedule. Medicine you reach a “plateau” soon after becoming an attending and from there you are only as good as how many patients/shifts you do. In fact, a lot of doctors feel they are losing more and more control over their time as the corporate practice of medicine takes hold in this country. That’s where the unhappiness comes from - not the money or the lack of realizing we are lucky “in comparison”.

I would rather have the money now. I would rather have compound interest working for me. If you are FI it doesn’t matter what your boss thinks.

 

[miacomet]

This post makes almost no sense in context of your first. I know people who grew up in third world countries and immigrated here for residency. They don’t feel rich. They feel like kings. If you actually grew up poor you wouldn’t be arguing with me, you’d be agreeing with me because you’d know how damn lucky you were. Also, I have no idea what you are trying to prove. The point I’m trying to make is that I am THANKFUL for my job and my opportunities that I am fortunate enough to have. Also, you said that you can pretty much buy all the stuff I mentioned which means you’re probably an attending but then you said you’ve never owned a car in your life. You trollin.

I don't think posters are ungrateful for their opportunities. Being grateful doesn't mean it's a great job, or that people love it, or that they feel they couldn't have achieved more or lived a better life.

 

[Hamhock]

Ummmm, 200k savings???

Yeah, it's a lot but I assume some people on here are doing it. Or at least $150K. Physician DINKs for sure.

Of course that is not typical, but my post was in response to the idea that none of us are net worth 1%ers.

HH

 

[Tenk]

I don't think posters are ungrateful for their opportunities. Being grateful doesn't mean it's a great job, or that people love it, or that they feel they couldn't have achieved more or lived a better life.

They sure sound like it. Also, our job is one of the most fulfilling and highest $/hr in the country. Ever work manual labor? It sucks. Far worse than this job and the pay is like 1/10th as much.

Grass is always greener until you go over the hill and realize you had $10,000 AstroTurf and your neighbor’s yard is full of weeds and used heroin needles.

 

[em1234]

I frequently wonder if I will ever shake that feeling of being poor. I grew up very comfortable. nothing opulent but there was never a personal concern about money. My parents covered my college costs, but I was on the hook for medical school which I was very on board with and I think was a great adult responsibility. My wife and I took to the challenge and lived incredibly cheaply for over a decade. crappy apartments, sketchy neighborhoods. Had 2 of our 3 kids in our super austere lifestyle and think that are better for it.
I picked residency in part by where the lowest COL with highest salary was available and no state income tax. And after reading WCI's website cover to cover multiple times during my pgy3, I realized the only way to get ahead was to continue this lifestyle until the loans were paid, etc. we moved from my first job in a HCOL, low paying area to a LCOL high paying area that I chronicled in old post last year and it has really worked out for us.
So here I am 7y out of residency, 225k loans gone, 8y left on my modest mortgage, driving a 12yo car, non-home equity net worth of 1.2MM, and honestly my favorite thing to do with my money is put it in my defined benefit plan or taxable account or finding a dope super discounted item from the clearance bin at my grocery store (This morning, I found these fancy chocolate chips my wife likes in the bin for $.79, down from $5.99, BALLER!!). We take one "big" trip per year for 2 weeks after 4th of july usually to visit family, but that's about it. I'm pretty cheap at baseline, but that decade made me a cost cutting miser ninja who perpetually rides an undercurrent of fear of being poor again, no matter how unreasonable it is.
I don't feel like I am desperately missing out on anything, and looking at my peers who are desperately trying to snatch up extra shifts to cover their millionaire on paper, hundredaire in the bank lifestyles, my decision to lean towards FIRE makes me incredibly happy. I spend whatever money I want to spend but I don't have any plans to buy a tesla SUV, or rent out a Cubs roof top anytime soon. I just wonder if the reprogramming of medical school and residency has hardwired anyone else.

 

[anbuitachi]

This post makes almost no sense in context of your first. I know people who grew up in third world countries and immigrated here for residency. They don’t feel rich. They feel like kings. If you actually grew up poor you wouldn’t be arguing with me, you’d be agreeing with me because you’d know how damn lucky you were. Also, I have no idea what you are trying to prove. The point I’m trying to make is that I am THANKFUL for my job and my opportunities that I am fortunate enough to have. Also, you said that you can pretty much buy all the stuff I mentioned which means you’re probably an attending but then you said you’ve never owned a car in your life. You trollin.

No, i was referring to how you were implying being able to buy x, y ,z means you are rich. I dont have a house, never had a car, and still using my computer from 2010. Also not an attending. Also not in EM lol.

Like what poster your post said, being grateful doesn't mean rich. I grew up poor, but i NEVER felt poor even living in poverty. why? because everyone i knew there were just as poor. when i felt poor was actually when i came to the US. when i started seeing classmates go out to eat, go on vacations, do fancy Extracurriculars, that i didn't have the opportunity to do. I'm also not a foreign MD grad so i still have 6 figure loans just like most US MDs. Maybe my views will change and i'll feel rich as an attending, but i doubt it. Also ironically, the friends i had back from where i came from are now richer than i am in the US. places sure change fast.

 

[Splenda88]

That is misleading. how rich you are should be based on how much money youve earned, not how much you earn per year. Its an OK way to generalize in surveys and stuff cause its complicated to get into details, but on forums like these id like to differentiate. We start at a very low networth. We dont start accumulating til our mid 30s, some even later depending on how much loans you have/length of residency. Just because you earn 300k doesn't mean you are rich, you are still far behind the programmers making 100k since age 21 with only college debt.

1% pretty much based on annual income in most forms of news reports, but 1% for doctors from annual income is far different from ibanker/business, even lawyers (only 3 yr law school w no residency). their net worth is FAR higher than ours despite being close to the 1%

The Top 1 Percent: What Jobs Do They Have?

 

[miacomet]

They sure sound like it. Also, our job is one of the most fulfilling and highest $/hr in the country. Ever work manual labor? It sucks. Far worse than this job and the pay is like 1/10th as much.

Grass is always greener until you go over the hill and realize you had $10,000 AstroTurf and your neighbor’s yard is full of weeds and used heroin needles.

I don't find it fulfilling; I'm glad you do.
In the US, you don't really have to work manual labor jobs if one is here legally- there are many other options. I'm unclear why that would be a point of reasonable comparison? It's a necessary job that has ok compensation and a lot of negatives. High end votech, as I said.

Our hourly is not terrible, but I'm pretty sure my lawyer takes home more, and she isn't working nights. The Wall Street folks do better with less education, too. We aren't sufficiently compensated for the circadian issues, and it's challenging, although not by any means impossible, to find an exit strategy.

It's great the field is everything you dreamed of. It doesn't mean the rest of us don't have reasonable complaints. Your perspective is valuable, but so is mine, and many of my peers have chosen more wisely within and outside the house of medicine.

As to wealth? If you have to punch a clock, wealthy you are not. And we are the definition of clock-punchers. It's not simple to scale EM into something that allows us to join the capitalist class, which is where real wealth lies.

Don't confuse consumption with wealth, Tenk.

 

[Tenk]

No, i was referring to how you were implying being able to buy x, y ,z means you are rich. I dont have a house, never had a car, and still using my computer from 2010. Also not an attending. Also not in EM lol.

Like what poster your post said, being grateful doesn't mean rich. I grew up poor, but i NEVER felt poor even living in poverty. why? because everyone i knew there were just as poor. when i felt poor was actually when i came to the US. when i started seeing classmates go out to eat, go on vacations, do fancy Extracurriculars, that i didn't have the opportunity to do. I'm also not a foreign MD grad so i still have 6 figure loans just like most US MDs. Maybe my views will change and i'll feel rich as an attending, but i doubt it. Also ironically, the friends i had back from where i came from are now richer than i am in the US. places sure change fast.

I love how people have opinions on things they haven’t even experienced and then tell me I’m wrong based on what they believe. What a joke. Done with you.

 

[Tenk]

I don't find it fulfilling; I'm glad you do.
In the US, you don't really have to work manual labor jobs if one is here legally- there are many other options. I'm unclear why that would be a point of reasonable comparison? It's a necessary job that has ok compensation and a lot of negatives. High end votech, as I said.

Our hourly is not terrible, but I'm pretty sure my lawyer takes home more, and she isn't working nights. The Wall Street folks do better with less education, too. We aren't sufficiently compensated for the circadian issues, and it's challenging, although not by any means impossible, to find an exit strategy.

It's great the field is everything you dreamed of. It doesn't mean the rest of us don't have reasonable complaints. Your perspective is valuable, but so is mine, and many of my peers have chosen more wisely within and outside the house of medicine.

As to wealth? If you have to punch a clock, wealthy you are not. And we are the definition of clock-punchers. It's not simple to scale EM into something that allows us to join the capitalist class, which is where real wealth lies.

Don't confuse consumption with wealth, Tenk.

Stop Whining About Job Satisfaction | The White Coat Investor - Investing & Personal Finance for Doctors

Except you are wrong. We make tons more per hour than the average lawyer and Wall Street never sleeps.

I honestly don’t care what you think. I live what I consider a “rich” lifestyle and you’ll never convince me otherwise so I’ll save you the trouble and just stop responding to you after this. Have a good life. I know I will.

 

[miacomet]

Stop Whining About Job Satisfaction | The White Coat Investor - Investing & Personal Finance for Doctors

Except you are wrong. We make tons more per hour than the average lawyer and Wall Street never sleeps.

I honestly don’t care what you think. I live what I consider a “rich” lifestyle and you’ll never convince me otherwise so I’ll save you the trouble and just stop responding to you after this. Have a good life. I know I will.

I may disagree with you on EM, but I've never wished you anything but well; I hope you are as happy as you claim behind all the defensiveness. I'm not sure what I've done to offend you?

Living a rich lifestyle to me isn't accumulating guns or cars (both of those crack me up) or restaurant meals- it's security, control of my time, and creating generational wealth. YMMV.

My happiness is that I'll be out of the game shortly.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

And this is a good life.

After you buy the nice mattress, it's not going to work long term if it's all about the money.
A good career isn't about making money and then wanting to retire, it's about loving what you do so much that it's better than anything else you could imagine. Better than retiring.
I don't see a ton of that in EM.

Good on you Christismi, as always.

Yeah, I like my job, but not as much as I like not doing my job. Maybe someday.

 

[deleted547339]

Yeah, it's a lot but I assume some people on here are doing it. Or at least $150K. Physician DINKs for sure.

Of course that is not typical, but my post was in response to the idea that none of us are net worth 1%ers.

HH

Yea, I suppose if my wife was a doc not a stay at home mom, we’d probably do that. As it stands, that would be roughly a between 65-80% savings rate depending on how you count it, lol. I’m no Mr. Money Mustache...

That being said, my wife enjoys being at home, our kids are well cared for and our savings rate ~30%. Grass could always be greener. I think once we buy a house and are able to loosen the purse strings a bit, I’ll likely feel well off.

 

[Jabbed]

 

[s109442]

Building a pool. Running out of pages in my passport for stamps. Finally getting a new vehicle after 10 years.

Excellent - keep it up

 

[betamale]

Mostly donate to charity (GOP PAC and Build the Wall fundraisers)

 

[EctopicFetus]

Gosh, I would hope SOME of us are...it seems the 1% net worth floor is 10 million (admittedly, that's from just a quick Google).

Starting at age 30, I would hope the FI-minded EM doc net worth is 500k by 35 and then 1.5 million by age 40. No one knows how the market will go, but for docs before us, it's not unreasonable to think that by putting away $200K per year for 20 years into 80% VTSAX/20% bond fund, (s)he would be near 10 million at age 60.

Of course, that's for the doc who doesn't have a bunch of kids, toys early in life, student loan payments, and divorces...but there must be SOME of us like this, no?

HH

Very very few EM docs. Keep in mind the avg EM doc is making like 340k. Given that and avg debt of 200K and income taxes etc. there is little to no chance people are saving 200k. Also many people arent 30 coming out of residency. Is there someone who did it.. sure. That being said whats the point of accumulating all that money. You have to enjoy the ride. Why have 10m if you have no kids or spouse. Why keep working hard enough to save 200k and not spend?

 

[EctopicFetus]

Yeah, it's a lot but I assume some people on here are doing it. Or at least $150K. Physician DINKs for sure.

Of course that is not typical, but my post was in response to the idea that none of us are net worth 1%ers.

HH

FInd the right job and you can do it DINK or no DINK.

 

[cyanide12345678]

Stop Whining About Job Satisfaction | The White Coat Investor - Investing & Personal Finance for Doctors

Except you are wrong. We make tons more per hour than the average lawyer and Wall Street never sleeps.

I honestly don’t care what you think. I live what I consider a “rich” lifestyle and you’ll never convince me otherwise so I’ll save you the trouble and just stop responding to you after this. Have a good life. I know I will.

I don't know why people think lawyers have some amazing life. The job market for lawyers isn't all that great. If you're not a graduate from a top law school your prospects aren't that great. On the other hand, if you go to the worst possible medical school, you essentially still come out with a high income potential.

The road to partnership is often worse than residency. They work 80-120 hours a week. Their starting salaries are only just a notch above residency salaries. There is no guarantee of partnership after years of effort and hard work. Literally the median income for these lawyers is coming in at around 100-110k a year. Maybe a few partners of huge law firms are making Bank, but as a whole most lawyers are not even crossing 200k. Plus they easily work quite a lot of hours, far more than us. If some one came to me for career choice, I sure won't recommend law school over med school, unless you are going to Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford etc

 

[miacomet]

I don't know why people think lawyers have some amazing life. The job market for lawyers isn't all that great. If you're not a graduate from a top law school your prospects aren't that great. On the other hand, if you go to the worst possible medical school, you essentially still come out with a high income potential.

The road to partnership is often worse than residency. They work 80-120 hours a week. Their starting salaries are only just a notch above residency salaries. There is no guarantee of partnership after years of effort and hard work. Literally the median income for these lawyers is coming in at around 100-110k a year. Maybe a few partners of huge law firms are making Bank, but as a whole mostmost law are not even crossing 200k. Plus they easily work quite a lot of hours, far more than us. If some one came to me for career choice, I sure won't recommend law school over med school, unless you are going to Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford etc

I agree that law is overrated as a career for any of the reasons you mentioned.
However, BigLaw starting salaries are much higher than that:
Associates At This Biglaw Firm Finally Seeing A Raise
How To Save a Million Bucks Before You Become A Law Firm Partner | The White Coat Investor - Investing & Personal Finance for Doctors

BTW, no law school at Princeton.

 

[cyanide12345678]

Very very few EM docs. Keep in mind the avg EM doc is making like 340k. Given that and avg debt of 200K and income taxes etc. there is little to no chance people are saving 200k. Also many people arent 30 coming out of residency. Is there someone who did it.. sure. That being said whats the point of accumulating all that money. You have to enjoy the ride. Why have 10m if you have no kids or spouse. Why keep working hard enough to save 200k and not spend?

It's probably easier than you think. If someone put $75k into the market every year for the last 35 years (from age 30 to 65) then at a 7 percent average return, they should be worth almost 12 million today. For the record the S&P return over the last 35 years averaged better than 7 percent.

Now if someone was adventurous with money, and successful, they could theoretically have done better. For example, let's say someone puts a down payment of 20k on a 100k home, and they roughly get 800/month in rent. After expenses (taxes, maintenance), let's say rent just covers $500 a month in mortgage, and there is no surplus. That's 500 x 12 is $6000 towards equity of that home that you will own. So that's basically about a 30 percent return on the original 20k investment. Rinse and repeat.

A lot of uneducated people have successfully invested in passive income and done great. Why can't we?

 

[deleted547339]

FInd the right job and you can do it DINK or no DINK.

Shoot, y’all hiring? Lol.

 

[cyanide12345678]

I agree that law is overrated as a career for any of the reasons you mentioned.
However, BigLaw starting salaries are much higher than that:
Associates At This Biglaw Firm Finally Seeing A Raise
How To Save a Million Bucks Before You Become A Law Firm Partner | The White Coat Investor - Investing & Personal Finance for Doctors

Hence if you're a Harvard grad, your prospects are different. Not every one is making it big. Hence BLS reports significantly lower median salaries around 110k. They also report median physician salaries as 208k, which is probably also on the low spectrum so take it with a grain of salt.

I've always thought of law school as being equivalent to an MBA, unless it's a brand name education, chances of making it big are significantly lower.

Also if anyone is going to make the argument that people who become doctors are smart and will do well in all aspects of life, then you're also wrong. Getting into an American med school is ridiculously easy. I grew up in a country where 50000 people competed for 2000 seats for medical school, 48000 of the people who gave the medical school entrance test did not get in. Over the years, the number of seats has expanded, but that's what it was 10-15 years ago. In the US, you can score decently below the average on the MCAT, have a 3+ GPA, which is fairly easy to do if you take college remotely seriously and have an ounce of work ethic, then you can still find some med school to take you.

 

[miacomet]

Hence if you're a Harvard grad, your prospects are different. Not every one is making it big. Hence BLS reports significantly lower median salaries around 110k. They also report median physician salaries as 208k, which is probably also on the low spectrum so take it with a grain of salt.

I've always thought of law school as being equivalent to an MBA, unless it's a brand name education, chances of making it big are significantly lower.

Also if anyone is going to make the argument that people who become doctors are smart and will do well in all aspects of life, then you're also wrong. Getting into an American med school is ridiculously easy. I grew up in a country where 50000 people competed for 2000 seats for medical school, 48000 of the people who gave the medical school entrance test did not get in. Over the years, the number of seats has expanded, but that's what it was 10-15 years ago. In the US, you can score decently below the average on the MCAT, have a 3+ GPA, which is fairly easy to do if you take college remotely seriously and have an ounce of work ethic, then you can still find some med school to take you.

It's much easier to get into a top law school than a top medical school; I would imagine that med students at the top half of allopathic medical schools would have decent chance at a top 14 law school.

Point taken that the bar for medschool in the US is insanely low for the anything below the top half of allopathic schools, even more insanely easy when you consider DO schools and the newer, crappier allopathic schools.

 

[cyanide12345678]

It's much easier to get into a top law school than a top medical school; I would imagine that med students at the top half of allopathic medical schools would have decent chance at a top 14 law school.

Point taken that the bar for medschool in the US is insanely low for the anything below the top half of allopathic schools, even more insanely easy when you consider DO schools and the newer, crappier allopathic schools.

Maybe I should have gone to law school and fulfilled my superficial dream of having Harvard on my resume they broke my heart when they didn't rank me high enough for the residency match

 

[Hamhock]

There's a thread in the sociopolitical forum (extreme caution suggested!) about the meritocracy. Without getting into nuance (I prefer the grey zone), there is some great intangible benefit of the ivy league -- whether it be for law school or (more importantly) for undergrad.

Without coming across as a dick, does anyone here, deeply, believe that Harvard will not benefit ANY career or that the 'exposure' will make anyone but the "worker" more successful?

Please, HH (yes, accepting a**hole designations)

 

[hundreddaysoff]

It's probably easier than you think. If someone put $75k into the market every year for the last 35 years (from age 30 to 65) then at a 7 percent average return, they should be worth almost 12 million today. For the record the S&P return over the last 35 years averaged better than 7 percent.

Now if someone was adventurous with money, and successful, they could theoretically have done better. For example, let's say someone puts a down payment of 20k on a 100k home, and they roughly get 800/month in rent. After expenses (taxes, maintenance), let's say rent just covers $500 a month in mortgage, and there is no surplus. That's 500 x 12 is $6000 towards equity of that home that you will own. So that's basically about a 30 percent return on the original 20k investment. Rinse and repeat.

A lot of uneducated people have successfully invested in passive income and done great. Why can't we?

This is kind of OT and keep in mind I'm kind of a troll. But I know you like WCI, so if you haven't already you should read his favorite real estate investing book, John T Reed's Best Practices For The Intelligent Real Estate Investor, before trying to implement your passive investing plan. I know it's all the rage on PIMD/other physician investing blogs, but Reed has a pretty good argument that if you're investing passively in real estate for rental income without getting at least a 20% discount below market on your cost or 10% cap rate, then you're basically just gambling on continued housing appreciation. This is what most real estate investors have been doing for the past 10 years. If we hit another housing recession, you could very well be hosed.

I suspect there is a big selection bias among real estate investors to publish success and we don't hear from the army of investors who got burned like WCI (VA townhouse) and Reed (Dallas apartments in the 80s that he ultimately re-deeded to the seller for $0 since he was losing so much money for so long).

(Yes, you might also be hosed in the stock market in a recession, temporarily, but you'd also end up with a lot more free time and probably get similar long-term returns of 5--7% vs naive passive real estate investing.)

 

[deleted547339]

There's a thread in the sociopolitical forum (extreme caution suggested!) about the meritocracy. Without getting into nuance (I prefer the grey zone), there is some great intangible benefit of the ivy league -- whether it be for law school or (more importantly) for undergrad.

Without coming across as a dick, does anyone here, deeply, believe that Harvard will not benefit ANY career or that the 'exposure' will make anyone but the "worker" more successful?

Please, HH (yes, accepting a**hole designations)

I don’t think the question is whether or not there is any benefit, it’s the magnitude of the benefit relative to the draw back. Of course there is benefit to Harvard, but at what cost? The benefits to a Harvard mba over your state private school mba is enormous and probably relatively close in cost. The benefit to a Harvard law degree over your state public law school is probably huge and may be worth it depending on your goals. If you want to be a judge or politician, it’s worth the extra 200k. If you want to be a public defender, almost certainly not.

I was a screw off in high school, so Ivy League was out of the question for me for undergrad. But I killed it in undergrad and could have gone to a much more competitive school than the cheap, public state U I went to - maybe not Harvard, but likely one of the top few schools. That being said, I come from a middle class/upper middle class family and wouldn’t have gotten much, if any, financial aid. In my mind, it wasn’t worth even applying because I knew I could graduate with minimal debt if I stayed locally. I got the residency of my choice and barely had to borrow any money.

 

[cyanide12345678]

This is kind of OT and keep in mind I'm kind of a troll. But I know you like WCI, so if you haven't already you should read his favorite real estate investing book, John T Reed's Best Practices For The Intelligent Real Estate Investor, before trying to implement your passive investing plan. I know it's all the rage on PIMD/other physician investing blogs, but Reed has a pretty good argument that if you're investing passively in real estate for rental income without getting at least a 20% discount below market on your cost or 10% cap rate, then you're basically just gambling on continued housing appreciation. This is what most real estate investors have been doing for the past 10 years. If we hit another housing recession, you could very well be hosed.

I haven't read this particular book, but I've read a few others on real estate investing. The premise was the same: do not invest in a home betting on appreciation as you've already said. The rental income essentially needs to cover all costs and the mortgage.

 

[EctopicFetus]

I love real estate but you have to consider property taxes, maintenance, hassle, months with no tenant, costs to bring in new tenants fixing stuff and if you are a doctor you likely are paying someone to manage it. All that cuts into your gains.

If you pay "market" for your rental you will be screwed. Also, listen to the people who bought a place and then had a foundation problem, tenant problems, AC, Roof, appliances etc.

I own real estate and if I am not cash flow positive on a deal after all expenses including a measure for time the home wont be occupied and ongoing maintenance then its not a good deal. Even if housing collapses if you follow this simple premise you should be ok as rents (other than high end) dont collapse no matter the housing market. When people get their homes foreclosed on they still need somewhere to sleep.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

I would just rather invest than hold onto real estate that I personally wouldn’t live in

 

[hundreddaysoff]

I love real estate but you have to consider property taxes, maintenance, hassle, months with no tenant, costs to bring in new tenants fixing stuff and if you are a doctor you likely are paying someone to manage it. All that cuts into your gains.

If you pay "market" for your rental you will be screwed. Also, listen to the people who bought a place and then had a foundation problem, tenant problems, AC, Roof, appliances etc.

I own real estate and if I am not cash flow positive on a deal after all expenses including a measure for time the home wont be occupied and ongoing maintenance then its not a good deal. Even if housing collapses if you follow this simple premise you should be ok as rents (other than high end) dont collapse no matter the housing market. When people get their homes foreclosed on they still need somewhere to sleep.

Sounds like you are in a good place with your properties.

Reed and many others thought that rents wouldn't collapse in Dallas in the late 80s on his lower-middle-class apartment complexes. But they did due to unexpected overbuilding (lots of flat land in TX...) and he lost $750K, despite having the initially good fundamentals that you discuss, since he was forced to lower his rents below his immediate costs. I'm sure there are many more examples. Unexpected rent control like what's going on in OR right now could be another one.

His point is that all our crystal balls are cloudy about everything and so reward should be proportional to risk, just like with any investing. If I'm gonna risk personal bankruptcy, lawsuits, crazy tenants that my own gov't won't necessarily let me kick out, decreased margins and emotional stress from ?corrupt property managers/contractors, etc etc etc, then I won't be satisfied with anything less than double-digit cap rate on paper. Since I'm wrong a lot of the time, that cap rate will probably decrease to 6--7% in reality. But my understanding is that deals w/ >10% cap rate or >20% below market value, even on paper, are very rare and usually require unconventional methods to find (Zillow/biggerpockets won't cut it). Would love to be proven wrong.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Sounds like you are in a good place with your properties.

Reed and many others thought that rents wouldn't collapse in Dallas in the late 80s on his lower-middle-class apartment complexes. But they did due to unexpected overbuilding (lots of flat land in TX...) and he lost $750K, despite having the initially good fundamentals that you discuss, since he was forced to lower his rents below his immediate costs. I'm sure there are many more examples. Unexpected rent control like what's going on in OR right now could be another one.

His point is that all our crystal balls are cloudy about everything and so reward should be proportional to risk, just like with any investing. If I'm gonna risk personal bankruptcy, lawsuits, crazy tenants that my own gov't won't necessarily let me kick out, decreased margins and emotional stress from ?corrupt property managers/contractors, etc etc etc, then I won't be satisfied with anything less than double-digit cap rate on paper. Since I'm wrong a lot of the time, that cap rate will probably decrease to 6--7% in reality. But my understanding is that deals w/ >10% cap rate or >20% below market value, even on paper, are very rare and usually require unconventional methods to find (Zillow/biggerpockets won't cut it). Would love to be proven wrong.

I looked at but was scooped on a property that generated 50k+ in rent and asking was 240k, low taxes etc. Was a quadplex.

Im not saying deals are everywhere cause lord knows they arent. But gettting a 10+% Cash on Cash isnt rare. Have to find the right realtor and have some hustle. I will give you that not all areas have these deals. Heck check roofstock. Tons of decent (not great) deals.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

I just bought a bunch of total US stock market, total bond market, and total international stock market.

 

[ftr1]

100% stock market

 

[Boatswain2PA]

Interesting that nobody has talked about how much they give to others. I often feel that is the greatest use of ones wealth.

As a PA I make about half of what y'all make, and we give substantially to several charities, to our parish, and to our families (allowing some disabled nieces to participate in some things, etc).

I know some docs who are incredibly generous with not only their wealth, but also their time. One locums doc I occasionally work with often buys pizza for the night shift ED crew.

 

[Birdstrike]

Interesting that nobody has talked about how much they give to others. I often feel that is the greatest use of ones wealth.

As a PA I make about half of what y'all make, and we give substantially to several charities, to our parish, and to our families (allowing some disabled nieces to participate in some things, etc).

I know some docs who are incredibly generous with not only their wealth, but also their time. One locums doc I occasionally work with often buys pizza for the night shift ED crew.

I donate thousands of dollars per year to charity. And that does not include the thousands of dollars of uncompensated care I provided taking care of uninsured ED patients over the years, most during a time when the uninsured rate was much higher than it is today.

 

[miacomet]

Not to mention residency, which is charity in and of itself.