So whats the deal with minorities?

[Espadaleader]

True, and I think it's bc affirmative action policies are public knowledge, and the AAMC has released data showing that there are different test scores and GPA for the average white, average black, etc. who matriculate into med school. Nothing racist about it. It's data.

You take any group of high achieving students who had to bust their butt to get where they are, they will naturally resent someone who didn't have to and still got a spot. The problem with AA is that one has no way of knowing whether that URM had the GPA/MCAT score on par with everyone else, so the easiest thing is to believe the worst.

What med schools do, wrongly IMHO, is speak out of both sides of their mouth when it comes to the importance of undergraduate GPA and MCAT score and medical school success.

All tests scores shown from all groups show at the minimum a baseline level of academic competency. No one that is unqualified is getting in.

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[Fabio Lanzoni]

All tests scores shown from all groups show at the minimum a baseline level of academic competency. No one that is unqualified is getting in.

All DermViser is saying is that URMs have empirically lower scores. Nothing about whether or not those scores are good enough for medical school

 

[DermViser]

All tests scores shown from all groups show at the minimum a baseline level of academic competency. No one that is unqualified is getting in.

But apparently for different skin colors, there is a different "baseline level of academic competency" that is allowed for matriculation into med school, which have been correlated with problems in med school grades or Step scores.

 

[MDforMee]

But apparently for different skin colors, there is a different "baseline level of academic competency" that is allowed for matriculation into med school, which have been correlated with problems in med school grades or Step scores.

 

[DermViser]

Sorry, but undergraduate GPA and MCAT scores have been HIGHLY correlated in the literature with passage of USMLE Step 1.

 

[Espadaleader]

But apparently for different skin colors, there is a different "baseline level of academic competency" that is allowed for matriculation into med school, which have been correlated with problems in med school grades or Step scores.

Not really.

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/267622/data/mcatstudentselectionguide.pdf

Its a binary. You are either competent or not. The student with a 27 MCAT and 3.0 GPA has a 1.9% chance of failure.

There is only one level of baseline competency.

 

[DermViser]

Not really.

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/267622/data/mcatstudentselectionguide.pdf

Its a binary. You are either competent or not. The student with a 27 MCAT and 3.0 GPA has a 1.9% chance of failure.

There is only one level of baseline competency.

First that statistic is a RANGE of 27-29. Also, a 27 MCAT and 3.0 GPA are nowhere close to being "competent", must less matriculate in an MD school.

 

[ChemEngMD]

Multiple adcoms on these boards have said that a 26 MCAT and a 3.0 are the baseline for academic success in medical school.

What about all of the students getting into DO schools with lower MCATs and GPAs? They still are passing STEP1, getting into residency programs, and becoming attendings.

 

[Espadaleader]

First that statistic is a RANGE of 27-29. Also, a 27 MCAT and 3.0 GPA are nowhere close to being "competent", must less matriculate in an MD school.

Okay, go ahead and look the data in the face. It is competent.

 

[WillburCobb]

Sorry, but undergraduate GPA and MCAT scores have been HIGHLY correlated in the literature with passage of USMLE Step 1.

The studies with the highest correlation factor have been modest at best, but your comment was aimed at MDforMee so I'll give you this one.

 

[DermViser]

Multiple adcoms on these boards have said that a 26 MCAT and a 3.0 are the baseline for academic success in medical school.

What about all of the students getting into DO schools with lower MCATs and GPAs? They still are passing STEP1, getting into residency programs, and becoming attendings.

Not everyone who goes to DO school take the USMLE.

There are those selected who below the 26 MCAT and 3.0 GPA who are still accepted to MD school, even though they have not met "competency".
https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

 

[DermViser]

The studies with the highest correlation factor have been modest at best, but your comment was aimed at MDforMee so I'll give you this one.

"Modest"? Hardly.

 

[WillburCobb]

"Modest"? Hardly.

I come from a psych background so I look at correlations pretty critically. Just my bias in that arena.

 

[ChemEngMD]

Not everyone who goes to DO school take the USMLE.

There are those selected who below the 26 MCAT and 3.0 GPA who are still accepted to MD school, even though they have not met "competency".
https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

You are correct - there are. But this is true for ALL races - not just URMs.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/2012factstable25-4.pdf (white)

Over that 3 year period there were 503 white applicants who were accepted with a sub-3.0 GPA, 3571 accepted with a sub-27 MCAT, and 124 accepted with neither a 3.0 or a 27 MCAT.

I would argue that these students must have had some extenuating circumstances that either led them to have lower GPAs OR they have some amazing qualities about them that made AdComs sit up in their chairs and say, "hey, this kid has what it takes."

Why should these 503 white applicants not have their competency questioned but the 591 URMs below a 3.0 should? (Not even taking into account that many of these URM students likely were accepted to HBCUs or PR schools or were admitted to special pipeline SMP programs.)

 

[DermViser]

You are correct - there are. But this is true for ALL races - not just URMs.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/2012factstable25-4.pdf (white)

Over that 3 year period there were 503 white applicants who were accepted with a sub-3.0 GPA, 3571 accepted with a sub-27 MCAT, and 124 accepted with neither a 3.0 or a 27 MCAT.

I would argue that these students must have had some extenuating circumstances that either led them to have lower GPAs OR they have some amazing qualities about them that made AdComs sit up in their chairs and say, "hey, this kid has what it takes."

Why should these 503 white applicants not have their competency questioned but the 591 URMs below a 3.0 should? (Not even taking into account that many of these URM students likely were accepted to HBCUs or PR schools or were admitted to special pipeline SMP programs.)

Yes, but compare that to the number of black applicants with a sub 3.0 GPA and sub-27 MCAT who were accepted: https://www.aamc.org/download/321514/data/2012factstable25-2.pdf

 

[ChemEngMD]

Yes, but compare that to the number of black applicants with a sub 3.0 GPA and sub-27 MCAT who were accepted: https://www.aamc.org/download/321514/data/2012factstable25-2.pdf

I did. It's 215.

Are you saying that the 124 White applicants should get a pass and the 215 Black should not?

IMO - extenuating circumstances are extenuating circumstances.

 

[DermViser]

I did. It's 215.

Are you saying that the 124 White applicants should get a pass and the 215 Black should not?

IMO - extenuating circumstances are extenuating circumstances.

No, and it's obvious you missed my point but actually proved my point at the same time.

With a sub 3.0 GPA and sub-27 MCAT (which is already not meeting the standard for academic success in (a.k.a. passing) medical school), 215 Blacks were accepted while only 124 Whites were accepted at that same cutoff.

 

[drumstix]

Haha um yea my mother is a Portuguese immigrant but refused to teach it to me because she thought I would be decimated against. Just know Spanish from college. just thought Id throw that in there. ok will self end my post now

That's like saying, "I am Korean.. But only speak a little bit of Japanese.. Because my mom thought I would get decimated (wtf?) in school.. So she didn't teach me Japanese.."

 

[drumstix]

No, and it's obvious you missed my point but actually proved my point at the same time.

With a sub 3.0 GPA and sub-27 MCAT (which is already not meeting the standard for academic success in (a.k.a. passing) medical school), 215 Blacks were accepted while only 124 Whites were accepted at that same cutoff.

ADCOMs consider the whole application, not just scores. How do you know the black applicants didn't deserve the seats based on the overall picture? And insinuating that the whites got screwed out lol

 

[DermViser]

ADCOMs consider the whole application, not just scores. How do you know the black applicants didn't deserve the seats based on the overall picture? And insinuating that the whites got screwed out lol

I didn't say that. The assertion above is that 3.0 GPA and 27 MCAT are "baseline for academic success in medical school." If that's the case for those below that marker, URMs (in this case black) were given greater than x1.5 leeway, vs. the white applicant.

 

[drumstix]

I didn't say that. The assertion above is that 3.0 GPA and 27 MCAT are "baseline for academic success in medical school." If that's the case for those below that marker, URMs (in this case black) were given greater than x1.5 leeway, vs. the white applicant.

Meh, I'm not convinced it's that simple. There's gotta be more to it mate

 

[DermViser]

Meh, I'm not convinced it's that simple. There's gotta be more to it mate

That's the beauty of math. You don't have to be "convinced" of it, in order for it to work. Do the same for Asian and for Hispanic and compare the numbers for each race with the same metrics.

 

[Mr Interesting]

Sorry, but undergraduate GPA and MCAT scores have been HIGHLY correlated in the literature with passage of USMLE Step 1.

Though there is considerable evidence to support this, that may not be entirely true… at least not for historically black medical school students. I believe there was a study that found no significant correlation between MCAT scores and step scores at historically black medical schools. It appears there is indeed a strong correlation between MCAT scores and Step scores but interestingly enough, MCAT scores may not be as reliable for predicting step scores for minorities at historically black medical schools. I’ll see if I can dig it up.

 

[ChemEngMD]

No, and it's obvious you missed my point but actually proved my point at the same time.

With a sub 3.0 GPA and sub-27 MCAT (which is already not meeting the standard for academic success in (a.k.a. passing) medical school), 215 Blacks were accepted while only 124 Whites were accepted.

That's irrelevant to the argument. Yes 215 > 124 ....and? It would be cool to eliminate URM status so that those extra 91 Black people aren't given a chance? Or should none of them be given a pass?

During this 3 year time period 60,773 total applicants were accepted. 471 were accepted with less than a 27 MCAT and a 3.0 GPA.

That is 0.775% of the total accepted student population. I believe that is completely statistically likely that ~1% of matriculating students (150 per year) have extenuating circumstances that may have prevented them from getting the "minimum" standard to be academically successful in medical school.

Perhaps they have outstanding leadership characteristics or an amazing life story? Maybe they have done GPA repair and while they are still under a 3.0, they were at a 4.0 for the past 4 semesters? Maybe they did an SMP and their graduate GPA is a 4.0? Maybe they are dedicated to working in a specific underserved area that they are from?

Yes, 69% of these students are URM, but is it really that hard to believe that students with these special circumstances may be more likely to come from these backgrounds given what we know with the correlation between race and poverty?

 

[PurpleLove]

Quick question, aren't minorities usually based on looks? My friend looks black and she's half Haitian and half Chinese. Wonder what she put on her applications. Isn't it also true that many ORMs faced discrimination and hardships (Jewish, many Europeans, etc)? I also don't get how my grandma being discriminated against has anything to do with my life besides having cool stories to tell.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Meh, I'm not convinced it's that simple. There's gotta be more to it mate

That's the beauty of math. You don't have to be "convinced" of it, in order for it to work. Do the same for Asian and for Hispanic and compare the numbers for each race with the same metrics.

#toomuchtruth

Multiple adcoms on these boards have said that a 26 MCAT and a 3.0 are the baseline for academic success in medical school.

What about all of the students getting into DO schools with lower MCATs and GPAs? They still are passing STEP1, getting into residency programs, and becoming attendings.

So either the ad coms are wrong, or DO schools are magically easier. Last time I checked DO schools produce competent doctors, and they have many, many people under that "binary threshold." Y'all can't have it your way. Either use ad com word as law, or don't. In this case, you can't use it

 

[ChemEngMD]

So either the ad coms are wrong, or DO schools are magically easier. Last time I checked DO schools produce competent doctors, and they have many, many people under that "binary threshold." Y'all can't have it your way. Either use ad com word as law, or don't. In this case, you can't use it

I'm confused. What are you arguing? That the Adcoms are wrong and that a sub 26 MCAT and sub 3.00 student can still be capable of success in medical school? I would agree with you that there are definitely students with extenuating circumstances below these thresholds that are totally capable! I just outlined as much in my last post.

 

[PurpleLove]

I'm confused. What are you arguing? That the Adcoms are wrong and that a sub 26 MCAT and sub 3.00 student can still be capable of success in medical school? I would agree with you that there are definitely students with extenuating circumstances below these thresholds that are totally capable! I just outlined as much in my last post.

Why does skin color/looks = extenuating circumstances.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

The US government disagrees and states that Hispanic, Latino and Spanish may be used interchangeably.
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/meta/long_RHI825212.htm

I feel like this needs to be said a thousand times on these things

Latina/o - from Latin America
Example: Mike's family is from Peru. Mike is Latino.
Hispanic - from a Spanish speaking country
Example: Jane is from Spain. Jane is Hispanic.

You will find people who try to differentiate Spanish from Spain by calling them Spaniards as opposed to calling them Latino (a) or Spanish who are Spanish decent living in Central/South America and the Caribbean.

 

[ChemEngMD]

Why does skin color/looks = extenuating circumstances.

Okay you didn't read my post. I pointed out that 30% of the students who get in with these low stats are White. I believe that those students likely had extenuating circumstances as well. I just am not shocked that 69% of those students with extenuating circumstances are URM. It makes sense when you consider the correlation between race and poverty.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

I'm confused. What are you arguing? That the Adcoms are wrong and that a sub 26 MCAT and sub 3.00 student can still be capable of success in medical school? I would agree with you that there are definitely students with extenuating circumstances below these thresholds that are totally capable! I just outlined as much in my last post.

Sorry I am off in lala land, my post made no sense - you right. All I meant to say is that I don't think ad coms have it right in this case. DO students do not meet the MCAT criteria often and they make very competent docs.

 

[DermViser]

That's irrelevant to the argument. Yes 215 > 124 ....and? It would be cool to eliminate URM status so that those extra 91 Black people aren't given a chance? Or should none of them be given a pass?

During this 3 year time period 60,773 total applicants were accepted. 471 were accepted with less than a 27 MCAT and a 3.0 GPA.

That is 0.775% of the total accepted student population. I believe that is completely statistically likely that ~1% of matriculating students (150 per year) have extenuating circumstances that may have prevented them from getting the "minimum" standard to be academically successful in medical school.

Perhaps they have outstanding leadership characteristics or an amazing life story? Maybe they have done GPA repair and while they are still under a 3.0, they were at a 4.0 for the past 4 semesters? Maybe they did an SMP and their graduate GPA is a 4.0? Maybe they are dedicated to working in a specific underserved area that they are from?

Yes, 69% of these students are URM, but is it really that hard to believe that students with these special circumstances may be more likely to come from these backgrounds given what we know with the correlation between race and poverty?

My point is at the SAME threshold, whites and asians are given MUCH less of a pass to matriculate into med school compared to the URM.
The trajectory of likelihood of acceptance is also much higher for URMs above that threshold vs. the white/asian.

 

[PurpleLove]

Okay you didn't read my post. I pointed out that 30% of the students who get in with these low stats are White. I believe that those students likely had extenuating circumstances as well. I just am not shocked that 69% of those students with extenuating circumstances are URM. It makes sense when you consider the correlation between race and poverty.

Sorry, I didn't read any other posts. Okay, makes sense. But it is generally assumed that URM = disadvantaged and let's face it, schools like to look diverse.

 

[ChemEngMD]

My point is at the SAME threshold, whites and asians are given MUCH less of a pass to matriculate into med school compared to the URM.
The trajectory of likelihood of acceptance is also much higher for URMs above that threshold vs. the white/asian.

Fair, but once again look at the data.

80,375 White applicants, 21, 208 URM applicants. 4X as many applicants for a population that is 2.25X as big. Medical schools are trying to create a physician population representative of the population as a whole, thus above that threshold URMs being 1.78X as likely to be accepted makes sense for what schools are trying to do.

Hopefully one day there will be the representative amount of URMs applying to med school and then things will even out, but now there just aren't that many of us getting to the point of applying to medical school. As long as the vast majority of the students (read 97+%) are above this 27 MCAT 3.0 GPA magical threshold, then it is unlikely that these URM students are failing to go on to become successful attending physicians.

 

[Mr Interesting]

Quick question, aren't minorities usually based on looks? My friend looks black and she's half Haitian and half Chinese. Wonder what she put on her applications. Isn't it also true that many ORMs faced discrimination and hardships (Jewish, many Europeans, etc)? I also don't get how my grandma being discriminated against has anything to do with my life besides having cool stories to tell.

Assuming this is real…

Your friend would mark down half black and half Chinese. Being half URM still qualifies her as URM. Either way, why is that any of your business?

It is definitely true that ORM’s have faced discrimination. However, if you can’t see how discrimination can affect future generations I don’t know what to tell you. Up until a few decades, minorities faced discrimination that barred them from receiving quality educations and high paying jobs. If they were lucky to land a job, they were often paid significantly less than their white coworkers doing the exact same job. This no doubt has contributed to why so many minorities come from poor backgrounds. I don’t think I have to explain how educational outcomes can be influenced by family incomes. It’s only been 50 years since segregation ended. Not 200, not 100, but 50 years lol. Even when it ended do you think things just magically got better for minorities? Discrimination has impacted future generations and contributed to a life of hardships and poverty for many minority communities and families, which hardly make for a “cool story.”

 

[moop]

gaiz stop. pls

 

[Beth_W737]

Yes but issue is that URM may be child of 2 wealthy drs and have far more opportunities than the poor white guy working 3 jobs to help his family, with equal grades/MCAt. I think it should be more SES/individual circumstances.

 

[LizzyM]

What I was trying to get across was that there is no reason to believe that the IQ distribution for premed students exactly overlaps the IQ distribution for the general population in this country. Even the average college student is several IQ intervals higher than the average person living in America. Thus, I do not need to specifically define what pre med really means because even if you take the definition of premeds with the lowest average level of intelligence (those consisting of freshmen during the first month of college where being a pre med seems very doable), that would be significantly higher than the average intelligence of an average US citizen anyways. Are there premeds with IQs of less than 100? Of course. Is 50% of the pre medical population (however you want to define it) consisting of those people? NOPE.

Delete this post or do whatever you want with it.

No one said it did. Stating that 50% of a given subset of population are below a specified score is in no way implying that the distribution of scores exactly overlaps the distribution for the entire population.

You greatly underestimate the population of average US citizens and over-inflate the IQ (a flawed measure as it is) of college students in the US.

There is a good reason why the new MCAT will include Critical Analysis and Reasoning skills.

 

[Mr Interesting]

Yes but issue is that URM may be child of 2 wealthy drs and have far more opportunities than the poor white guy working 3 jobs to help his family, with equal grades/MCAt. I think it should be more SES/individual circumstances.

Although that is a possibility, most of the literature on this subject suggests that there is a link between academic success and family income. URM's with wealthy parents (not even as common as you think) tend to have great stats. It is no surprise that people who come from low income families start school already behind their peers who come from more affluent backgrounds as children. I think people hate the idea of a “wealthy minority student getting in med school with low stats” more than that actually happens. White people can be poor and come from low income families. This can happen because of many different reasons. However, one reason we can eliminate as the cause for their family's financial misfortune is that they were barred from getting excellent educations and high paying jobs because of the color of their skin. I do agree SES economic status should be taken into consideration (more). Maybe then, privileged ORM’s would find a new target to blame for someone “taking their seat” and we’ll start seeing some threads that say “what’s the deal with poor white people?”

 

[Mad Jack]

Nothing good can come off this thread at this point. It has far outlived its usefulness and will degenerate into a bunch of premeds telling each other they'll be horrible physicians in no time.

 

[Lucca]

Yes but issue is that URM may be child of 2 wealthy drs and have far more opportunities than the poor white guy working 3 jobs to help his family, with equal grades/MCAt. I think it should be more SES/individual circumstances.

SES and individual circumstances are definitely considered during admissions decisions.

It's written directly in the AAMC guidelines.

The fact remains that most of the disadvantaged students in any given applicant pool are URM.

I defy the idea that there are bread and butter wealthy URMs with sub-27, sub 3.0 stats getting into medical school.

 

[ninjaman22]

We taking over the world, son!

 

[ChemEngMD]

SES and individual circumstances are definitely considered during admissions decisions.

It's written directly in the AAMC guidelines.

The fact remains that most of the disadvantaged students in any given applicant pool are URM.

I defy the idea that there are bread and butter wealthy URMs with sub-27, sub 3.0 stats getting into medical school.

Agreed. The problem is all about perspective. Depending on what side of the aisle you're standing on will dictate how you will view the issue.

These White applicants below the 27/3.0 threshold are viewed as having extenuating circumstances, while some people want to believe that those URM students below that threshold are living like Uncle Phil and simply gaming the system.

Chances are that ALL of those students are socioeconomically disadvantaged.

If you want to simply play the hypothetical game, then someone could just as easily make unsubstantiated claims that these below-threshold White applicants are the children of wealthy donors and alumni who are simply getting in off the fact that they will be a 3rd generation student at that school!

It's a slippery slope - I like to believe all of those students accepted with those stats have legitimate, personal reasons and attributes that allowed Adcoms to look beyond the numbers. And I would wager that most of them come from a similar SES background.

 

[Goro]

These MUST be those people who apply to med schools with single digit MCAT scores!


A lot of winnowing goes on and those who are below average in intelligence are left by the wayside but there well may be many "pre-meds" who have IQs of 99 or less.

 

[DermViser]

Though there is considerable evidence to support this, that may not be entirely true… at least not for historically black medical school students. I believe there was a study that found no significant correlation between MCAT scores and step scores at historically black medical schools. It appears there is indeed a strong correlation between MCAT scores and Step scores but interestingly enough, MCAT scores may not be as reliable for predicting step scores for minorities at historically black medical schools. I’ll see if I can dig it up.

That made absolutely no sense. No one said MCAT scores are clairvoyant.

 

[Mad Jack]

These MUST be those people who apply to med schools with single digit MCAT scores!


A lot of winnowing goes on and those who are below average in intelligence are left by the wayside but there well may be many "pre-meds" who have IQs of 99 or less.

"So what did you score on the MCAT."
"A 9."
"On what section?"
"Uh, all of them. Combined."

I would not be surprised if there were plenty of physicians of average intelligence, and even a few of lower than 100 IQ practicing in the US. You don't have to be a genius to pass the exams that get you your medical license, just really good at multiple choice testing and pattern recognition.

 

[DermViser]

Agreed. The problem is all about perspective. Depending on what side of the aisle you're standing on will dictate how you will view the issue.

These White applicants below the 27/3.0 threshold are viewed as having extenuating circumstances, while some people want to believe that those URM students below that threshold are living like Uncle Phil and simply gaming the system.

Chances are that ALL of those students are socioeconomically disadvantaged.

If you want to simply play the hypothetical game, then someone could just as easily make unsubstantiated claims that these below-threshold White applicants are the children of wealthy donors and alumni who are simply getting in off the fact that they will be a 3rd generation student at that school!

It's a slippery slope - I like to believe all of those students accepted with those stats have legitimate, personal reasons and attributes that allowed Adcoms to look beyond the numbers. And I would wager that most of them come from a similar SES background.

Wrong. Look at the numbers. At any breakpoint of MCAT/GPA, the URM is given more a break based on his her skin color, period.

 

[Goro]

Standardized tests are one of the worst ways of assessing knowledge, but unfortunately, were addicted to them in medical school.

"So what did you score on the MCAT."
"A 9."
"On what section?"
"Uh, all of them. Combined."

I would not be surprised if there were plenty of physicians of average intelligence, and even a few of lower than 100 IQ practicing in the US. You don't have to be a genius to pass the exams that get you your medical license, just really good at multiple choice testing and pattern recognition.

 

[dyspareunia]

"So what did you score on the MCAT."
"A 9."
"On what section?"
"Uh, all of them. Combined."

I would not be surprised if there were plenty of physicians of average intelligence, and even a few of lower than 100 IQ practicing in the US. You don't have to be a genius to pass the exams that get you your medical license, just really good at multiple choice testing and pattern recognition.

Pattern recognition plays a relatively significant role in IQ testing. I've taken IQ tests (real ones, not online ones) and a lot of it is memory and pattern recognition.

Anyway, yes perhaps there are low IQ physicians practicing, but I doubt there will be low IQ physicians practicing in 20+ years. The competition now is so extreme and all of us currently in Med school are highly intelligent.

 

[Mr Interesting]

That made absolutely no sense. No one said MCAT scores are clairvoyant.

Lol perhaps not to you. However, people do like to point out that there is a strong correlation between MCAT scores and step scores all the time here. I was just sharing something I found interesting.