So whats the deal with minorities?

[MDforMee]

Yes there is a strong correlation between MCAT scores and Step scores in the medical literature. No one said it is clairvoyant.

Why don't you enlighten the audience here how few advanced practice nurses pass a faux step 3 usmle and yet are still taking primary care spots and independently practicing.

You guys want to talk about clinical competence having no correlation to education?

Uhh, that ship already sank...

Elephant in the living room, cough cough, andhjsd

Excuse poor writing I'm jogging

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Mr Interesting]

There is not a strong correlation. Stop it.

Isn't that what I was saying?

 

[dyspareunia]

Isn't that what I was saying?

Probably. I've proven many times that my reading comprehension skills are minimal.

 

[DermViser]

Why don't you enlighten the audience here how few advanced practice nurses pass a faux step 3 usmle and yet are still taking primary care spots and independently practicing.

You guys want to talk about clinical competence having no correlation to education?

Uhh, that ship already sank...

Excuse poor writing I'm jogging

Read my post that you quoted AGAIN. The medical literature shows a clear correlation between MCAT score and USMLE Step scores. No one here is talking about Step scores and their correlation to CLINICAL competence. Clinical competence is assessed by different metrics.

NPs don't "take" primary care spots. Advanced Practice nurses fall under the Board of Nursing, not under the Board of Medicine. Medicine has absolutely no jurisdiction over how Nursing wishes to structure their curriculum or their education. Any independent practice by NPs are through political and legislative battles at the state level regarding scope of practice, not necessarily taking into account what's best for the patient.

Any other half-baked questions, pretending you know everything?

 

[MDforMee]

Read my post that you quoted AGAIN. The medical literature shows a clear correlation between MCAT score and USMLE Step scores. No one here is talking about Step scores and their correlation to CLINICAL competence. Clinical competence is assessed by different metrics.

NPs don't "take" primary care spots. Advanced Practice nurses fall under the Board of Nursing, not under the Board of Medicine. Medicine has absolutely no jurisdiction over how Nursing wishes to structure their curriculum or their education. Any independent practice by NPs are through political and legislative battles at the state level regarding scope of practice, not necessarily taking into account what's best for the patient.

Any other half-baked questions, pretending you know everything?

As much as I enjoy proving you wrong, I've learned that conversations like these never amount to anything productive.

The larger point is that we are facing dramatic cutbacks in reimbursements, and the only thing between those and groups infringing on our autonomy is our educations.

You're really immature, by the way. I'm leaving

 

[DermViser]

As much as I enjoy proving you wrong, I've learned that conversations like these never amount to anything productive.

The larger point is that we are facing dramatic cutbacks in reimbursements, and the only thing between those and groups infringing on our autonomy is our educations.

You're really immature, by the way. I'm leaving

Is that all you have? I directly answer with facts to what you just said re: NPs and Medicine, and you still think you're "proving" me wrong? Ok, if you say so.

Physician autonomy, as a whole, has already gone down, period, without a change in our education. This is well-established but something that obviously you missed. The only thing infringing on our autonomy is not education, but scope of practice laws by state govts. If tomorrow, the state passes a law saying that elementary school teachers can start seeing patients independently, BAM! It happens. It has NOTHING to do with education.

Also, we saw your maturity quite well on display in the "Are acceptances for minorities really that skewed?" thread, in which you were pummeled left and right by nearly everyone on the thread, bc you were so misguided on the facts.

 

[mct2762]

Yes there is a strong correlation between MCAT scores and Step scores in the medical literature. No one said it is clairvoyant.

from all the data I have read, the correlation is certainly not "strong"

 

[23premes]

Real question here. Can one actually take out the HBC medical schools and then see what URM acceptance rate is? I mean, how do we actually know what the acceptance rate is for URMs without those schools? If I'm correct, we don't have that data. So where are people making this claims that URMs have such a great advantage. Some schools have like 2-5 black students....does it take 8 pages to argue about this.

 

[dyspareunia]

Real question here. Can one actually take out the HBC medical schools and then see what URM acceptance rate is? I mean, how do we actually know what the acceptance rate is for URMs without those schools? If I'm correct, we don't have that data. So where are people making this claims that URMs have such a great advantage. Some schools have like 2-5 black students....does it take 8 pages to argue about this.

See what the URM acceptance rate is? Sure.. Subtract the number of students per class at HBCU (largely black) from the total number of black students accepted. That's your rate (roughly) at the other schools.

 

[ChemEngMD]

See what the URM acceptance rate is? Sure.. Subtract the number of students per class at HBCU (largely black) from the total number of black students accepted. That's your rate (roughly) at the other schools.

He means acceptance rate per GPA/MCAT block - not overall acceptance rates.

 

[Jabbed]

I have heard it's easier to get in if you are of African or Hispanic descent... personally I'm Portuguese but only speak a small amount of Spanish.. will this help my chances at all

Portuguese speak Portuguese..

 

[23premes]

He means acceptance rate per GPA/MCAT block - not overall acceptance rates.

Yes, this.

 

[DermViser]

Standardized tests are one of the worst ways of assessing knowledge, but unfortunately, were addicted to them in medical school.

I agree. The medical profession perseverates on standardized exams and give lip service to everything else.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Who cares whether HBCUs are included in the stats? They're US MD schools in the mainland that cater to US medical students. PR schools I can understand since they're not really accessible to most hispanics. Where are the Asian-targeted schools for sub-par Asian applicants? Where are the Cuban-targeted schools? There are schools made just to take African Americans - which cannot be said for any other demographic. No one else has special schools that take low-stat folks. This is a boost

 

[ChemEngMD]

Who cares whether HBCUs are included in the stats? They're US MD schools in the mainland that cater to US medical students. PR schools I can understand since they're not really accessible to most hispanics. Where are the Asian-targeted schools for sub-par Asian applicants? Where are the Cuban-targeted schools? There are schools made just to take African Americans - which cannot be said for any other demographic. No one else has special schools that take low-stat folks. This is a boost

Show me the data that show large underserved Asian or Cuban populations in the United States?

If they don't exist then there isn't really a reason for those communities to have to create their own medical schools. HBCUs were not created as some consolation prize for Black applicants - they were built because African-American communities needed physicians and in the early years of medical education - nobody would train them. They are by no means reserved for Black students, but Black students do populate the majority of seats.

HBCUs are not ONLY for African-Americans (I was accepted to one and I'm Latino). They are meant to serve underserved communities. There are White, Asian, Black, Latino, Native American, etc students that attend HBCUs - they all have one thing in common - they want to address health disparities in underserved communities.

If a low stats applicant who had major experience in underserved communities and was not URM applied to an HBCU, they would get just as much love as the URM applicant with that same experience. It's about the track record. At my Howard interview there were 3 ORMs and they all had extensive experience in working in underserved communities. Also, I have seen high stats URM applicants with little to no record of working in underserved communities get waitlisted at an HBCU and get accepted into a Top 20.

Those schools are mission driven and could care less about stats or your skin color if you aren't going to follow the mission of their schools. Hence why they may take someone with a 2.9/25 if they feel they are capable and will follow their school's mission - this is why they have lower numbers on average.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

abc

 

[orbicularisoculi]

Yes, whites may be getting in at a higher rate. The average white person also has higher average GPA/MCAT scores compared to the average URM.

Thank you for agreeing what I have been saying all along --- at any GPA/MCAT combo, your chances of getting in are HIGHER if you're classifed as a URM, than if you were a White/Asian person.

The AAMC is also a big supporter of affirmative action as a policy so it's not really surprising that they would make that claim.

I think what you aren't taking into account is the reality of having your professor or TA look at you like you are intellectually inferior because of what you look like. People like you who complain about URM's being selected over other races will never have to combat preconceived notions of worth or belonging in an institution of higher learning. I'm sure your daddy paid $2000 for you to take a 3 month MCAT prep course AND you had the luxury of studying 8 hours a day without having to work to sustain yourself. What takes more intellect/effort? Self study while working full time=32 or pampered and coddled=36?

 

[DermViser]

I think what you aren't taking into account is the reality of having your professor or TA look at you like you are intellectually inferior because of what you look like. People like you who complain about URM's being selected over other races will never have to combat preconceived notions of worth or belonging in an institution of higher learning. I'm sure your daddy paid $2000 for you to take a 3 month MCAT prep course AND you had the luxury of studying 8 hours a day without having to work to sustain yourself. What takes more intellect/effort? Self study while working full time=32 or pampered and coddled=36?

So every single URM was working full-time and had a "professor or TA look at you like you are intellectually inferior because of what you look like", while everyone else had "daddy paid $2000 for you to take a 3 month MCAT prep course AND you had the luxury of studying 8 hours a day without having to work to sustain yourself."? Really?

 

[23premes]

So every single URM was working full-time and had a "professor or TA look at you like you are intellectually inferior because of what you look like", while everyone else had "daddy paid $2000 for you to take a 3 month MCAT prep course AND you had the luxury of studying 8 hours a day without having to work to sustain yourself."? Really?

Maybe not every single URM...but if you look at the numbers, you can see a trend. Why does everyone on this forum act like every URM is super wealthy or something. Last time I checked, blacks made less than whites and were more likely to grow up in an impoverished area. Are you guys really that delusional to think that all these URMs are actually growing up In wealthy neighborhoods? Yes, there are poor people of all races, but have you ever experienced discrimination because of your race? Or ever felt like you were inferior because you happen to be the only colored person in your science class? Have you ever felt out of place because of your race? Imagine how one is going to feel entering a big science lecture hall and standing out in obvious manner from everyone else. Even if you are a poor white person, you could easily blend in. My view is different because I'm biracial. I can see both sides of this argument, but I can't understand why there is so much hate on these forums. Do you same people blatantly speak to your fellow students and peers like this. How would you like to be a black kid at a top university hanging out with a few white and Asian premeds, driving over to get coffee and then being pulled over by a cop and being questioned because of your race. Have you ever worked or volunteered at a low income clinic and worked with URMs. Have you ever gone to the doctor and felt that you got inferior treatment because of your race? You can't shed your race, no matter how far or successful you become and some URMs may not admit this, but there are plenty who would gladly swap places with their white counterpart if given the opportunity. Rather be a rich black kid or a rich white kid....you guys should watch the movie good hair by Chris Rock. You might learn a thing or two.

 

[DermViser]

Maybe not every single URM...but if you look at the numbers, you can see a trend. Why does everyone on this forum act like every URM is super wealthy or something. Last time I checked, blacks made less than whites and were more likely to grow up in an impoverished area. Are you guys really that delusional to think that all these URMs are actually growing up In wealthy neighborhoods? Yes, there are poor people of all races, but have you ever experienced discrimination because of your race? Or ever felt like you were inferior because you happen to be the only colored person in your science class? Have you ever felt out of place because of your race? Imagine how one is going to feel entering a big science lecture hall and standing out in obvious manner from everyone else. Even if you are a poor white person, you could easily blend in. My view is different because I'm biracial. I can see both sides of this argument, but I can't understand why there is so much hate on these forums. Do you same people blatantly speak to your fellow students and peers like this. How would you like to be a black kid at a top university hanging out with a few white and Asian premeds, driving over to get coffee and then being pulled over by a cop and being questioned because of your race. Have you ever worked or volunteered at a low income clinic and worked with URMs. Have you ever gone to the doctor and felt that you got inferior treatment because of your race? You can't shed your race, no matter how far or successful you become and some URMs may not admit this, but there are plenty who would gladly swap places with their white counterpart if given the opportunity. Rather be a rich black kid or a rich white kid....you guys should watch the movie good hair by Chris Rock. You might learn a thing or two.

If that's the case as you say, then use socioeconomic status as the factor for affirmative action, not skin color.

http://magazine.good.is/articles/ivy-league-fooled-how-america-s-top-colleges-avoid-real-diversity
"While America’s most elite colleges do in fact make it a point to promote ethnic diversity on their campuses, a lot of them do so by admitting hugely disproportionate numbers of wealthy immigrants and their children rather than black students with deep roots—and troubled histories—in the United States."

 

[Mr Interesting]

** Going to repost this just in case some people didn't see this on the previous page**

The Rationale for Diversity in the Health Professions: A Review of the Evidence

U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Health Resources and Services Administration Bureau of Health Professions October 2006

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

Several racial and ethnic minority groups and people from socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds are significantly underrepresented among health professionals in the United States. Underrepresented minority (URM) groups have traditionally included African-Americans, Mexican Americans, Native Americans, and mainland Puerto Ricans. Numerous public and private programs aim to remedy this underrepresentation by promoting the preparedness and resources available to minority and socioeconomically disadvantaged health professions candidates, and the admissions and retention of these candidates in the health professions pipeline and workforce. In recent years, however, competing demands for resources, along with shifting public opinion about policies aimed to assist members of specific racial and ethnic groups, have threatened the base of support for “diversity programs.” Continued support for these programs will increasingly rely on evidence that they provide a measurable public benefit.

The most compelling argument for a more diverse health professions workforce is that it will lead to improvements in public health. We therefore examined the evidence addressing the contention that health professions diversity will lead to improved population health outcomes. Specifically, we searched for, reviewed, and synthesized publicly available studies addressing four separate hypotheses:

1) The service patterns hypothesis: that health professionals from racial and ethnic minority and socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds are more likely than others to serve racial and ethnic minority and socioeconomically disadvantaged populations, thereby improving access to care for vulnerable populations and in turn, improving health outcomes;

2) The concordance hypothesis: that increasing the number of racial and ethnic minority health professionals—by providing greater opportunity for minority patients to see a practitioner from their own racial or ethnic group or, for patients with limited English proficiency, to see a practitioner who speaks their primary language—will improve the quality of communication, comfort level, trust, partnership, and decision making in patient-practitioner relationships, thereby increasing use of appropriate health care and adherence to effective programs, ultimately resulting in improved health outcomes;

3) The trust in health care hypothesis: that greater diversity in the health care workforce will increase trust in the health care delivery system among minority and socioeconomically disadvantaged populations, and will thereby increase their propensity to use health services that lead to improved health outcomes; and

4) The professional advocacy hypothesis: that health professionals from racial and ethnic minority and socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds will be more likely than others to provide leadership and advocacy for policies and programs aimed at improving health care for vulnerable populations, thereby increasing health care access and quality, and ultimately health outcomes for those populations.

We reviewed a total of 55 studies:17 for service patterns, 36 for concordance, and 2 for trust in health care. We were not able to identify any empirical studies addressing the hypothesis that greater health professions diversity results in greater advocacy or implementation of programs and policies targeting health care for minority and other disadvantaged populations. Our review generated the following findings:


• URM health professionals, particularly physicians, disproportionately serve minority and other medically underserved populations;

• minority patients tend to receive better interpersonal care from practitioners of their own race or ethnicity, particularly in primary care and mental health settings;

• non-English speaking patients experience better interpersonal care, greater medical comprehension, and greater likelihood of keeping follow-up appointments when they see a language-concordant practitioner, particularly in mental health care; and

• insufficient evidence exists as to whether greater health professions diversity leads to greater trust in health care or greater advocacy for disadvantaged populations.

CONCLUSION

Programs and policies to promote racial, ethnic, and socioeconomic diversity in the health professions are based, at least in part, on the principle that a more diverse health care workforce will improve public health. We developed a framework and reviewed publicly available evidence addressing that principle. We found that current evidence supports the notion that greater workforce diversity may lead to improved public health, primarily through greater access to care for underserved populations and better interpersonal interactions between patients and health professionals. We identified, however, several gaps in the evidence and proposed an agenda for future research that would help to fill those gaps. Conducting this research will be essential to solidifying the evidence base underlying programs and policies to increase diversity among health professionals in the United States.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

23premes,

I don't think most rural and suburban ORMs really know how difficult the academic journey is for minorities. I really hoping medschool is different than my hs and college experience..

When you have teachers and professors look at you on the first day entering a class and are adamant that you are clearly lost and have come to the wrong class, ask to see your printed schedule to confirm (hs) then you get a glimpse of how unwanted most minorities feel. Still, that's besides the point.

Socioeconomic factors do not address the need for diversity alone DermViser, no matter how much you wish it did. There is a need for a representative body and the limited applicant pool is the reason for higher acceptance rates. I already explained the goals of diversity to you yesterday but I see you ignore any comments posted that challenge your generalized and illogical assumptions. That's okay though.

 

[23premes]

If that's the case as you say, then use socioeconomic status as the factor for affirmative action, not skin color.

http://magazine.good.is/articles/ivy-league-fooled-how-america-s-top-colleges-avoid-real-diversity
"While America’s most elite colleges do in fact make it a point to promote ethnic diversity on their campuses, a lot of them do so by admitting hugely disproportionate numbers of wealthy immigrants and their children rather than black students with deep roots—and troubled histories—in the United States."

First of all. You are posting from a magazine. While what the magazine is saying is true to some extent, having seen this myself. The system is not perfect. Adcoms do look at things like being disadvantaged. How much weight one chooses to put on it is up to the medical school. Just look at how many blacks are actually doctors. I'd like to see how many of those applying come from wealthy families. Maybe if you can find the numbers that show that 90 percent of the blacks applying come from wealthy families and that being black in no way was a disadvantage for them. I think you are missing the point. I agree that SES should be used and maybe In the future it will be used more. At my college, if your parents made less than 100k, you practically got a full ride, no matter your race. This still doesn't change your race though. These wealthy black immigrants can still walk down the street and experience the same discrimination that has been rooted in this country for a long time. I don't think anyone really believes AA is perfect, but do you really want to take it away from the few blacks and URMs that benefit from it. Maybe instead of focusing on taking it away, people should just rally behind ways to increase SES diversity. But instead, people want to ignore the fact that racism still exist and pretend that life in the US is color blind and that if you are poor and white, then it's no different than if you are poor and black.

 

[breakmon]

Socioeconomic factors do not address the need for diversity alone DermViser, no matter how much you wish it did. There is a need for a representative body and the limited applicant pool is the reason for higher acceptance rates. I already explained the goals of diversity to you yesterday but I see you ignore any comments posted that challenge your generalized and illogical assumptions. That's okay though.

Don't worry, I'm pretty sure DermViser is just trolling. Just ignore him.

 

[23premes]

Oh, one more point DermViser, how many of all the black applicants are coming from the Ivy League and top universities.....maybe try and find that number that shows the the 10k whatever applicants or 4k admitted all come from those top schools....

 

[DermViser]

First of all. You are posting from a magazine. While what the magazine is saying is true to some extent, having seen this myself. The system is not perfect. Adcoms do look at things like being disadvantaged. How much weight one chooses to put on it is up to the medical school. Just look at how many blacks are actually doctors. I'd like to see how many of those applying come from wealthy families. Maybe if you can find the numbers that show that 90 percent of the blacks applying come from wealthy families and that being black in no way was a disadvantage for them. I think you are missing the point. I agree that SES should be used and maybe In the future it will be used more. At my college, if your parents made less than 100k, you practically got a full ride, no matter your race. This still doesn't change your race though. These wealthy black immigrants can still walk down the street and experience the same discrimination that has been rooted in this country for a long time. I don't think anyone really believes AA is perfect, but do you really want to take it away from the few blacks and URMs that benefit from it. Maybe instead of focusing on taking it away, people should just rally behind ways to increase SES diversity. But instead, people want to ignore the fact that racism still exist and pretend that life in the US is color blind and that if you are poor and white, then it's no different than if you are poor and black.

Sorry but being classified as disdvantaged doesn't NEARLY give you the bump that you think it does, as LizzyM herself stated. Compare this to URM status.

 

[23premes]

23premes,

I don't think most rural and suburban ORMs really know how difficult the academic journey is for minorities. I really hoping medschool is different than my hs and college experience..

When you have teachers and professors look at you on the first day entering a class and are adamant that you are clearly lost and have come to the wrong class, ask to see your printed schedule to confirm (hs) then you get a glimpse of how unwanted most minorities feel. Still, that's besides the point.

Socioeconomic factors do not address the need for diversity alone DermViser, no matter how much you wish it did. There is a need for a representative body and the limited applicant pool is the reason for higher acceptance rates. I already explained the goals of diversity to you yesterday but I see you ignore any comments posted that challenge your generalized and illogical assumptions. That's okay though.

I think people really just want some scapegoat to blame their failures on. Otherwise I can't fathom why anyone would be so blatantly against trying to increase diversity in medicine. Or maybe these people actually secretly want to decrease it without seeming Blatantly racist?

 

[23premes]

@DermViser, you choose to pick out some of the points. Never once did I say being disadvantaged was the same. Just go read in the other forums how many URMs interviewing are the only ones interviewing sometimes and maybe see 1-3 other URMs when they do. Please come out and tell us why you really are so bitter?

 

[WestCoastMD16]

I never said it's a conspiracy. Quit putting words in my mouth.

The literature is quite clear regarding the correlation of undergraduate GPA and MCAT score with USMLE Step 1, which is the first hurdle one needs to get over in order to become a licensed physician. Whether admissions officers wish to follow that is another issue altogether and there are med schools that are free to disregard the literature altogether.

That being said, med school admissions officials can't talk out of both sides of their mouths of how important MCAT/GPA are in one breath, but the next moment say oh, it's not that important after all, depending on the skin color of the applicant.

Taking more URMs is not going to "fix the health" of this country as the problems run much deeper. Yet, you have the nerve to say I'm the one that's "idealistic".

It appears that above a certain threshold, an applicant is likely to be successful in medical school. There are a limited number of applicants in certain groups, thus a limited number of candidates to select from. In other groups, there are more than an ample number of applicants to select from. Therefore a means of winnowing down the applicant pool is necessary. Adcoms use MCAT scores and GPAs to accomplish this. The U.S. needs to provide healthcare for all of it's citizens and those of certain groups are more likely to provide these services to the underserved. As long as said candidates are able to succeed in medical school and become doctors, this serves the greater good.

Correct me if I'm wrong @LizzyM or @Goro, please.

 

[Goro]

100% correct. The data that keeps getting treated like gold at my school is a paper froma few years ago sowhing that in the early 2000s, an MCAT score <25 was a risk for failing out of medical school, or on StepI of USMLE. Among DO students, no one has ever shown any similar data for COMLEX. Hopefully the learned LizzyM has access to something more up to date?

It appears that above a certain threshold, an applicant is likely to be successful in medical school. There are a limited number of applicants in certain groups, thus a limited number of candidates to select from. In other groups, there are more than an ample number of applicants to select from. Therefore a means of winnowing down the applicant pool is necessary. Adcoms use MCAT scores and GPAs to accomplish this. The U.S. needs to provide healthcare for all of it's citizens and those of certain groups are more likely to provide these services to the underserved. As long as said candidates are able to succeed in medical school and become doctors, this serves the greater good.

Correct me if I'm wrong @LizzyM or @Goro, please.

 

[LizzyM]

I defy the idea that there are bread and butter wealthy URMs with sub-27, sub 3.0 stats getting into medical school.

100% correct. The data that keeps getting treated like gold at my school is a paper froma few years ago sowhing that in the early 2000s, an MCAT score <25 was a risk for failing out of medical school, or on StepI of USMLE. Among DO students, no one has ever shown any similar data for COMLEX. Hopefully the learned LizzyM has access to something more up to date?

The data I've seen suggest that the likelihood of passing the Step 1 exam rises with a rise in MCAT score with an inflection point at 25/26 and a leveling off such that anything above 26 is only slightly better than 26. Ditto the likelihood of graduating in 4 years and graduating in 5 years by MCAT score. That said, even with MCAT scores below 26, the likelihood that a matriculant would pass the Step 1 on the first try, and graduate in 5 years, was well above 93%. It isn't as if people with relatively low MCAT scores are flunking out in droves.

 

[alpinism]

Hispanic is an ethnicity, not a color (or race). People who claim hispanic ethnicity may be of any race (or color). Who is URM is completely dependent on each medical school's decision about what is URM at their school and to serve their community of patients (which may be local or which may be more broadly defined).

This is exactly true.

There are schools out there that consider certain asian ethnicities to be URMs

(hint: they're not in CA)

 

[Winterbourne]

Haha um yea my mother is a Portuguese immigrant but refused to teach it to me because she thought I would be decimated against. Just know Spanish from college. just thought Id throw that in there. ok will self end my post now

Right, but they speak Portuguese in Portugal…….

 

[breakmon]

Right, but they speak Portuguese in Portugal…….

Actual question: Then are Brazillians NOT considered Hispanic?

 

[WhittyPsyche]

I've never heard a Brazilian identify themselves that way but I have some Brazilian friends that identify as Latino, even that doesn't seem to be the majority with the ones I know though.

 

[tooth knockn]

Is being Colombian considered urm?

And how about Albanian ?


Posted using SDN Mobile

 

[WillburCobb]

What you're from What? Or is that a country you ain't never heard of?

 

[MDforMee]

Does anyone have data showing the percentage breakdown of physician ethnicity and practice location (inner city, underserved, suburban, etc)?

 

[bunnyg]

.

 

[touchpause13]

My friend is from south africa and lives in the US, but his skin is fair. Does he count as african american??

Does fair mean light skinned or white?

 

[bunnyg]

Does fair mean light skinned or white?

I would say it is more of a beige color

 

[Lucca]

Does anyone have data showing the percentage breakdown of physician ethnicity and practice location (inner city, underserved, suburban, etc)?

Read this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22708247/


The data already exists that URM physicians in primary care are significantly more likely to practice in underserved/minority areas than their ORM counterparts, this study found that URM specialists were 1.22-2 times as likely as their ORM counterparts to practice in rural/underserved/minority areas.

 

[breakmon]

Unfortunately, life is not fair. There are lots of ORMs who won't get into medical school in the name of diversity. There are lots of URMs who won't even have a chance to apply because they lacked the resources. Both sides should acknowledge the injustices felt by people whose life experiences differ from their own before wading into this debate.

And there are a lot of ORMs who will be royally screwed. They won't get into med school both because of "diversity" and because they lacked the resources.

 

[BlueCircle]

Are you guys really that delusional to think that all these URMs are actually growing up In wealthy neighborhoods?

No.

Yes, there are poor people of all races, but have you ever experienced discrimination because of your race?

No.

Or ever felt like you were inferior because you happen to be the only colored person in your science class?

No.

Have you ever felt out of place because of your race?

No.

Have you ever gone to the doctor and felt that you got inferior treatment because of your race?

No.

Have you ever worked or volunteered at a low income clinic and worked with URMs.

Yes.

 

[DermViser]

from all the data I have read, the correlation is certainly not "strong"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16186610

CONCLUSIONS: MCAT scores almost double the proportion of variance in medical school grades explained by uGPAs, and essentially replace the need for uGPAs in their impressive prediction of Step scores. The MCAT performs well as an indicator of academic preparation for medical school, independent of the school-specific handicaps of uGPAs.

 

[buttercup12]

.

 

[gookies]

*Disclaimer - my personal experience, I am a disadvantaged minority, just not URM*

I can see why diversity is needed and how individuals that are considered URM are unconsciously looked down upon by their peers, especially in the science courses. Individuals automatically assume you're not competent to do the coursework and would rather not pair up with you if a team was involved. Stereotypes exist in all groups, some more negative than others. I also can see how the majority think URMs come from bad, poor environments, which restricts them to resources. What I don't see is why individuals use that excuse during their university years.

I do acknowledge that our university education isn't perfect (nothing is), but it creates a better, or more equal (I'd say) playing field amongst every group. I say this because there are resources (at least on my campus and pretty sure most do) that are geared toward helping and promoting minority undergraduates to pursue health-related careers. You also have access to the same resources everyone else on campus has, plus those programs specifically geared to minorities. I guess I see it mostly as an excuse if you still say you're lacking the resources at the university level. I don't think individuals look or try hard enough to look for these resources that are offered to minorities, because they do exist and I'm grateful because of them.

Also, as you can see, knowing that certain groups are more likely to get in with the same stats compared to other groups makes the whole discrimination thing even worse (even though the whole idea is to diversify, which is good), but most ORMs see this as "unfair", since acceptance should be based on merit and not having a "boost" due to your skin color. A URM that gets into a top medical school, or even any medical school will always be looked down upon and individuals will assume they were accepted due to their skin color. Discrimination will always exist as long as mankind is alive (IMO). I guess the only thing plausible thing to do is to, "Let 'em talk, let 'em hate." I realize there are a lot of things that are "unfair", but these are things I can't really change, so I try not to worry too much about it. Then there are things I can influence, which I try my best to. In the end, just do you and be successful (in whatever way you interpret success as).

 

[23premes]

*Disclaimer - my personal experience, I am a disadvantaged minority, just not URM*

I can see why diversity is needed and how individuals that are considered URM are unconsciously looked down upon by their peers, especially in the science courses. Individuals automatically assume you're not competent to do the coursework and would rather not pair up with you if a team was involved. Stereotypes exist in all groups, some more negative than others. I also can see how the majority think URMs come from bad, poor environments, which restricts them to resources. What I don't see is why individuals use that excuse during their university years.

I do acknowledge that our university education isn't perfect (nothing is), but it creates a better, or more equal (I'd say) playing field amongst every group. I say this because there are resources (at least on my campus and pretty sure most do) that are geared toward helping and promoting minority undergraduates to pursue health-related careers. You also have access to the same resources everyone else on campus has, plus those programs specifically geared to minorities. I guess I see it mostly as an excuse if you still say you're lacking the resources at the university level. I don't think individuals look or try hard enough to look for these resources that are offered to minorities, because they do exist and I'm grateful because of them.

Also, as you can see, knowing that certain groups are more likely to get in with the same stats compared to other groups makes the whole discrimination thing even worse (even though the whole idea is to diversify, which is good), but most ORMs see this as "unfair", since acceptance should be based on merit and not having a "boost" due to your skin color. A URM that gets into a top medical school, or even any medical school will always be looked down upon and individuals will assume they were accepted due to their skin color. Discrimination will always exist as long as mankind is alive (IMO). I guess the only thing plausible thing to do is to, "Let 'em talk, let 'em hate." I realize there are a lot of things that are "unfair", but these are things I can't really change, so I try not to worry too much about it. Then there are things I can influence, which I try my best to. In the end, just do you and be successful (in whatever way you interpret success as).

I think you assume that one can magically go from doing okay in HS and then being an all star in college. Yes, many individuals can buckle down, and excel at college, but people are coming from different foundations. Go to any top college in America and you will see kids, mostly non URMs that have taken every AP/IB class available. Is it a surprise then that when they take intro bio or Chem that they get the highest scores. You can't expect someone who was so far behind to magically catch up? I took a bunch of AP classes and it made intro classes a joke since I already knew the material. This is not to say that only URMs have a poor HS experience. But I'm sure anyone that had a solid HS can attest to the benefits it had in college. And this is why AA fails. It doesn't get people up to speed. I'm not making an excuse for people's personal failures at the college level but maybe one can understand why these discrepancies exist. I TAd several science classes in college and it was always those that had virtually no foundation before college that were at the bottom of the food chain. Was it only URMs, nope, but a big majority was. And this is at one of the best schools in America with plenty of plenty of resources. So people definitely don't have an excuse as to why they can't catch up. However, I can only imagine how it might be for some at lower tier schools that may not have the funding or resources.

 

[MedWonk]

I have heard it's easier to get in if you are of African or Hispanic descent... personally I'm Portuguese but only speak a small amount of Spanish.. will this help my chances at all

From one Luso to another, don't try to pass yourself off as Hispanic. It won't end well.

 

[candyreign]

Unfortunately, life is not fair. There are lots of ORMs who won't get into medical school in the name of diversity. There are lots of URMs who won't even have a chance to apply because they lacked the resources. Both sides should acknowledge the injustices felt by people whose life experiences differ from their own before wading into this debate.

And there are a lot of ORMs who will be royally screwed. They won't get into med school both because of "diversity" and because they lacked the resources.

As much as I would like to refute all the "less qualified URM taking ORM spots", "SES should only matter, not race", and even the above "college levels out the playing field" (LOL, lucky you if that was your experience) claims, I am not here to partake in the usual SDN whining over URM "advantage". I am not a frequent poster and would usually never waste my time even responding to such a thread, BUT in all the URM discussions, this most important element never seems to come up.

We should realize that medical schools are not seeking to "diversify" their classes at the expense of student quality. Each student has taken the proper steps to make the school feel confident that they will succeed in their program (even if that ends up not being the case). Now to my main point:

Of all the URM med school applicants I know (about 40), only 7 matriculated right out of undergrad. Yes, 7 and each of them were outstanding applicants all around, just as you would expect for the average matriculant. The other 3o something worked/are working their butts off in masters' programs, postbaccs, research, clinical jobs, and huge service commitments like TFA. More likely than not, they're doing a combination of those things to prove that they can succeed in medical school. By the time they apply, not only have they earned the numbers to back up their applications, but they have also had a variety of other important experiences much beyond the scope of the majority of pre-meds. Looking at this total package, most of them do/will get into a medical school.

However when you look up the stats for these admitted students, you just see the undergrad numbers, which often are not up to par (or they wouldn't have had to do all that other stuff before applying). I was shocked at how virtually nobody takes this into account. From my experience, this is what accounts for that "URM boost" some like to preach. DO NOT BE FOOLED, everyone who gets in has demonstrated what their medical schools wanted to see in some way or another!

I wish all people who like to make the URM "advantage" argument would truly consider this.