So whats the deal with minorities?

[WhittyPsyche]

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Sorry, but undergraduate GPA and MCAT scores have been HIGHLY correlated in the literature with passage of USMLE Step 1.

... I thought that was what he was referring to? All caps and all

 

[ChemEngMD]

Wrong. Look at the numbers. At any breakpoint of MCAT/GPA, the URM is given more a break based on his her skin color, period.

Did you miss my post #84 where I discussed the fact that there are 4X as many White applicants as URM? Trust me that White people are still getting in at almost 4-fold of URMs overall. 9,334 URM acceptances, 38377 White acceptances...the overall % accepted is very similar, with Whites still being higher (47.7% of White applicants admitted, only 44% of URM applicants admitted).

Medical schools have a duty to the country to provide it with a representative population of physicians to care for ALL people, not just those who happen to be born with the right skin color or in the right neighborhood.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

Check your race and ethnicity just as you would on the US census. List your languages just as you would if you applying for a job. Each medical school decides, based on the demographics of the population it serves with patient care, who is URM. If a school wants to count you, then it will.

The proportion of black applicants who get admitted is about equall or slightly less than the proportion of white applicants who get admitted. Ditto Hispanic and Asian applicants. For a given combination of GPA and MCAT, the more rare applicants (black & hispanic) have a better chance of being chosen than Asian or white applicants with the same numbers. The thing is, don't look at the percentages, look at the numbers. The number of URM applicants at a given GPA/MCAT are sometimes very, very small and they are highly valued in a med school class because of the diversity they lend to the student body.

/thread.

LizzyM already addressed this

"More of a break" isn't really the point, it's the representative percentages that is the goal of diversity.

 

[plumazul]

Wrong. Look at the numbers. At any breakpoint of MCAT/GPA, the URM is given more a break based on his her skin color, period.

What numbers? Where are the valid data that would allow you to come to such a conclusion? It has been pointed out over and over again that the aggregate numbers being released by AAMC includes PR and HBUs. These schools have a clear mission to fulfill. Show me national data without these included and we'll talk.

 

[DermViser]

Lol perhaps not to you. However, people do like to point out that there is a strong correlation between MCAT scores and step scores all the time here. I was just sharing something I found interesting.

Yes there is a strong correlation between MCAT scores and Step scores in the medical literature. No one said it is clairvoyant.

 

[DermViser]

What numbers? Where are the valid data that would allow you to come to such a conclusion? It has been pointed out over and over again that the aggregate numbers being released by AAMC includes PR and HBUs. These schools have a clear mission to fulfill. Show me national data without these included and we'll talk.

Uh, right here: https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

 

[BobbyBarker]

I think he burned you there plumazul. Although it probably won't be the first time for you today as San Antonio is going to take a beat-down from Portland in a few hours.

 

[plumazul]

Uh, right here: https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

??😕 Did you even read what I said??

 

[WhittyPsyche]

Uh, right here: https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

I'm starting to think there is a reading comprehension issue going on.

Mr. Interesting mentioned that according to a study which he will try to locate the MCAT scores and step scores at HB medical schools did not show high/strong correlation. I believe his point being that they aren't as predictable for minorities or at least those at HBCs.

Now plumazul just requested stats that accounted for the fact that HBCs and PR schools are for the training of medical professions that are minorities so being that the minority applicant pool is so small to begin with, they will likely have matriculants on the lower end of the spectrum just based on the fact that they are in such small quantities. If you could locate valid and reliable studies and statistics of US medical schools excluding the HBCs and PR schools, they would serve better to prove your point of whether or not minorities get "more of a break" in different score and/or GPA brackets.

 

[DermViser]

I'm starting to think there is a reading comprehension issue going on.

Mr. Interesting mentioned that according to a study which he will try to locate the MCAT scores and step scores at HB medical schools did not show high/strong correlation. I believe his point being that they aren't as predictable for minorities or at least those at HBCs.

Now plumazul just requested stats that accounted for the fact that HBCs and PR schools are for the training of medical professions that are minorities so being that the minority applicant pool is so small to begin with, they will likely have matriculants on the lower end of the spectrum just based on the fact that they are in such small quantities. If you could locate valid and reliable studies and statistics of US medical schools excluding the HBCs and PR schools, they would serve better to prove your point of whether or not minorities get "more of a break" in different score and/or GPA brackets.

Ok, this isn't that hard to understand. We're talking about medical school matriculation here OVERALL across the United States. HBCU med schools are already known to recruit from the Low GPA/Low MCAT pool relative to other applicants.

If you look at the AAMC data, at any set GPA/MCAT threshold, the URM applicant WILL ALWAYS have a much higher % chance of getting an acceptance into an LCME accredited medical school vs. if he/she had NOT been a URM.

 

[plumazul]

Ok, this isn't that hard to understand. We're talking about medical school matriculation here OVERALL across the United States. HBCU med schools are already known to recruit from the Low GPA/Low MCAT pool relative to other applicants.

If you look at the AAMC data, at any set GPA/MCAT threshold, the URM applicant WILL ALWAYS have a much higher % chance of getting an acceptance into an LCME accredited medical school vs. if he/she had NOT been a URM.

?? So what's your point? That you just don't care that the numbers include PR and HBUs, because it helps you draw some conclusion?

 

[Mr Interesting]

Yes there is a strong correlation between MCAT scores and Step scores in the medical literature. No one said it is clairvoyant.

And again, that trend does not seem to remain as consistent at historically black medical schools surprisingly. Though not clairvoyant, the MCAT has been regarded as “the best predictor of Step 1 scores” again and again.

Here's another interesting study. Though you may not find it interesting perhaps others might.

Predicting academic performance at a predominantly black medical school.

Johnson DG, Lloyd SM Jr, Jones RF, Anderson J.

Abstract
A study was conducted by the authors that examined the validity of the Medical College Admission Test (MCAT), undergraduate grade-point average (GPA), and "competitiveness" of undergraduate college in predicting the performance of students at a predominantly black college of medicine. The performance measures used in the analysis consisted of course grades in all four years of medical school and scores on both Part I and Part II of the National Board of Medical Examiners (NBME) examinations. The predictive validities of the MCAT scores and undergraduate GPAs were found to be similar to those revealed in earlier studies conducted at predominantly white schools. Two exceptions to these similarities were found. First, the MCAT scores at the black school had a somewhat lower validity in predicting NBME examination scores than was the case at the other schools. Second, of the six MCAT subtest scores, Skills Analysis: Reading had the highest correlation with first-year grades, in contrast to results at the other schools. No differences between men and women were found in the validity of MCAT scores and the GPA. The competitiveness of the undergraduate college attended was found to contribute significantly to the prediction of all measures of medical school performance.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

If you can't take several separate points and connect them to form an overall picture then you shouldn't push for these discussions in all honesty.

One particular point, about HBCs, as you said they are recruiting on the lower end of the spectrum. So don't you think some analysis should be done of non HBCs to see how many applicants below the 27MCAT 3.0 margins that you were discussing are accepted? Obviously ORMs aren't attending these schools, so perhaps when you compare the numbers of whites "getting a break" vs. Minorities at non HBCs/PR schools, it could paint a very different picture. I almost feel like you are picking and choosing what your argument is with each new point someone makes.

But still, all points are underscored by the fact that a proportionate amount of applicants are accepted in each group. To attain the diversity and representative body schools are seeking they have to work with a very limited number of applicants in minority applicant pools. Hence lower scores will be accepted.

 

[DermViser]

And again, that trend does not seem to remain as consistent at historically black medical schools surprisingly. Though not clairvoyant, the MCAT has been regarded as “the best predictor of Step 1 scores” again and again.

Here's another interesting study. Though you may not find it interesting perhaps others might.

Predicting academic performance at a predominantly black medical school.

Johnson DG, Lloyd SM Jr, Jones RF, Anderson J.

Abstract
A study was conducted by the authors that examined the validity of the Medical College Admission Test (MCAT), undergraduate grade-point average (GPA), and "competitiveness" of undergraduate college in predicting the performance of students at a predominantly black college of medicine. The performance measures used in the analysis consisted of course grades in all four years of medical school and scores on both Part I and Part II of the National Board of Medical Examiners (NBME) examinations. The predictive validities of the MCAT scores and undergraduate GPAs were found to be similar to those revealed in earlier studies conducted at predominantly white schools. Two exceptions to these similarities were found. First, the MCAT scores at the black school had a somewhat lower validity in predicting NBME examination scores than was the case at the other schools. Second, of the six MCAT subtest scores, Skills Analysis: Reading had the highest correlation with first-year grades, in contrast to results at the other schools. No differences between men and women were found in the validity of MCAT scores and the GPA. The competitiveness of the undergraduate college attended was found to contribute significantly to the prediction of all measures of medical school performance.

You're right. I don't find it interesting for several reasons.

1) The authors themselves have a conflict of interest working at a HBCU med school. So it's not surprising that they'd say MCAT scores have no correlation since HBCU schools tend to have lower MCAT scores in general.
2) It's from freakin' 1986.
3) Their observation that the MCAT had a lower validity in predicting NBME scores is not surprising since the average matriculant there has a low MCAT score to begin with, hence the only thing left they had to go by is competitiveness of undergraduate institution.

 

[DermViser]

Not really.

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/267622/data/mcatstudentselectionguide.pdf

Its a binary. You are either competent or not. The student with a 27 MCAT and 3.0 GPA has a 1.9% chance of failure.

There is only one level of baseline competency.

Sorry but if you look at the data: https://www.aamc.org/download/165418/data/aibvol9_no11.pdf.pdf

Those with an MCAT of 27 or higher had a attrition rate of 2.5%, more than double the attrition rate of those with an MCAT of 28 or higher.

 

[ChemEngMD]

My favorite part is when @DermViser ignores when I show the same data he keeps throwing around to prove that White applicants are still getting in at a higher rate overall. Or when he ignores the fact that White applicants with low stats are still being accepted to medical school.

YES, at any GPA/MCAT combo the chance of getting in as a URM is higher than for White applicants, but this is a function of quantity of applicants.

Medical school admissions are not a meritocracy - they are meant to provide physicians to the WHOLE country and, specifically at this point in time, to address healthcare disparities by training physicians that will work in underserved areas.

The data has been thrown around on here a lot, but there was an AAMC publication that showed that Black medical school graduates were 2-3X as likely to work in underserved areas than White medical school graduates.

Adcoms are simply doing their jobs. When the total amount of URM applicants is 1/2 the size of White applicants instead of 1/4 then you will see more consistent acceptance rates across the board - but we don't live in that world yet.

 

[funtertaining15]

So one person asked a simple question and now people are debating with data and statistics.😆
"LET IT GO, LET IT GO!"

 

[DermViser]

My favorite part is when @DermViser ignores when I show the same data he keeps throwing around to prove that White applicants are still getting in at a higher rate overall. Or when he ignores the fact that White applicants with low stats are still being accepted to medical school.

YES, at any GPA/MCAT combo the chance of getting in as a URM is higher than for White applicants, but this is a function of quantity of applicants.

Medical school admissions are not a meritocracy - they are meant to provide physicians to the WHOLE country and, specifically at this point in time, to address healthcare disparities by training physicians that will work in underserved areas.

The data has been thrown around on here a lot, but there was an AAMC publication that showed that Black medical school graduates were 2-3X as likely to work in underserved areas than White medical school graduates.

Adcoms are simply doing their jobs. When the total amount of URM applicants is 1/2 the size of White applicants instead of 1/4 then you will see more consistent acceptance rates across the board - but we don't live in that world yet.

Yes, whites may be getting in at a higher rate. The average white person also has higher average GPA/MCAT scores compared to the average URM.

Thank you for agreeing what I have been saying all along --- at any GPA/MCAT combo, your chances of getting in are HIGHER if you're classifed as a URM, than if you were a White/Asian person.

The AAMC is also a big supporter of affirmative action as a policy so it's not really surprising that they would make that claim.

 

[ChemEngMD]

Yes, whites may be getting in at a higher rate. The average white person also has higher average GPA/MCAT scores compared to the average URM.

Thank you for agreeing what I have been saying all along --- at any GPA/MCAT combo, your chances of getting in are HIGHER if you're classifed as a URM, than if you were a White/Asian person.

The AAMC is also a big supporter of affirmative action as a policy so it's not really surprising that they would make that claim.

So your theory is: it's all a conspiracy.

Publications and organizations are all in this together to support this affirmative action agenda to take spots away from good, hard working White people.

It couldn't possibly be the fact that this country is in desperate need of more Black, Latino, Native American, GLBT, Veteran, or Rural doctors. Because the last 60 years of medical school admissions have obviously shown that the status quo of straight white male physicians are going to jump at the chance to work with these populations.

Come out of your idealistic, libertarian, meritocratic hole and look at the big picture. This is about fixing the health of this whole country.

 

[plumazul]

Ok, this isn't that hard to understand. We're talking about medical school matriculation here OVERALL across the United States. HBCU med schools are already known to recruit from the Low GPA/Low MCAT pool relative to other applicants.

If you look at the AAMC data, at any set GPA/MCAT threshold, the URM applicant WILL ALWAYS have a much higher % chance of getting an acceptance into an LCME accredited medical school vs. if he/she had NOT been a URM.

Yes, whites may be getting in at a higher rate. The average white person also has higher average GPA/MCAT scores compared to the average URM.

Thank you for agreeing what I have been saying all along --- at any GPA/MCAT combo, your chances of getting in are HIGHER if you're classifed as a URM, than if you were a White/Asian person.

The AAMC is also a big supporter of affirmative action as a policy so it's not really surprising that they would make that claim.

Progress??

 

[plumazul]

So your theory is: it's all a conspiracy.

Publications and organizations are all in this together to support this affirmative action agenda to take spots away from good, hard working White people.

It couldn't possibly be the fact that this country is in desperate need of more Black, Latino, Native American, GLBT, Veteran, or Rural doctors. Because the last 60 years of medical school admissions have obviously shown that the status quo of straight white male physicians are going to jump at the chance to work with these populations.

Come out of your idealistic, libertarian, meritocratic hole and look at the big picture. This is about fixing the health of this whole country.

And it's worth mentioning that notwithstanding all the "talk", URMs are just as U today as they were 20 years ago. A recent article from AAMC noted that over the past decade URM matriculation has remained "stagnant".

 

[WhittyPsyche]

My favorite part is when @DermViser ignores when I show the same data he keeps throwing around to prove that White applicants are still getting in at a higher rate overall. Or when he ignores the fact that White applicants with low stats are still being accepted to medical school.
.

That's why this is an ever revolving conversation. He wants the admissions process and the missions of schools to be something other than what they are...

Let's think of some logical outcomes of accepting a proportionate number of minorities. The likelihood that they will give back to their communities are already higher than their ORM counterparts. But beyond that, medicine is one of the few fields that provide these opportunities to minorities. As a result it allows groups that have historically been barred from achievement, positions of power, and to come out of the lowest income brackets. If competency is the same across the board above a 29 MCAT, then in actuality specific scores do not matter do they? Their training and education is what gives rise to the qualified physician you all preach about.
Now those minorities have families, and the chances that their offspring will attain higher education, seek achievement, want to work in the medical field etc all increases. The applicant pool will increase. Access to opportunities and quality education increases ( the true measure of equality: access to the same opportunities), and so their performances increase. Here comes a steady rise in the average GPA and MCAT scores. Over time the applicant pools will grow to represent the racial/ethnic populations that schools are trying to address. This is how we get to a point where there is no URM advantage, because the core of the problem, socioeconomic factors and upbringing will start being addressed. The future applicant pool then can reach a level where minority averages start matching those of their ORM counterparts. Then admissions won't have to pull from lower applicant pools to reach proportionate levels of diversity. (Do understand that the diversity will still exist, because it should).

As @ChemEngMD said this is not the world we live in now, but it is the world we can live in by policies that ameliorate income and access disparities. On a level playing field everyone will have similar chances of being accepted.

 

[DermViser]

So your theory is: it's all a conspiracy.

Publications and organizations are all in this together to support this affirmative action agenda to take spots away from good, hard working White people.

It couldn't possibly be the fact that this country is in desperate need of more Black, Latino, Native American, GLBT, Veteran, or Rural doctors. Because the last 60 years of medical school admissions have obviously shown that the status quo of straight white male physicians are going to jump at the chance to work with these populations.

Come out of your idealistic, libertarian, meritocratic hole and look at the big picture. This is about fixing the health of this whole country.

I never said it's a conspiracy. Quit putting words in my mouth.

The literature is quite clear regarding the correlation of undergraduate GPA and MCAT score with USMLE Step 1, which is the first hurdle one needs to get over in order to become a licensed physician. Whether admissions officers wish to follow that is another issue altogether and there are med schools that are free to disregard the literature altogether.

That being said, med school admissions officials can't talk out of both sides of their mouths of how important MCAT/GPA are in one breath, but the next moment say oh, it's not that important after all, depending on the skin color of the applicant.

Taking more URMs is not going to "fix the health" of this country as the problems run much deeper. Yet, you have the nerve to say I'm the one that's "idealistic".

 

[ChemEngMD]

I never said it's a conspiracy. Quit putting words in my mouth.

The literature is quite clear regarding the correlation of undergraduate GPA and MCAT score with USMLE Step 1, which is the first hurdle one needs to get over in order to become a licensed physician. Whether admissions officers wish to follow that is another issue altogether and there are med schools that are free to disregard the literature altogether.

That being said, med school admissions officials can't talk out of both sides of their mouths of how important MCAT/GPA are in one breath, but the next moment say oh, it's not that important after all, depending on the skin color of the applicant.
Taking more URMs is not going to "fix the health" of this country as the problems run much deeper. Yet, you have the nerve to say I'm the one that's "idealistic".

Taking more URMs may not fix the underlying issues with health insurance, bureaucracy, etc. BUT it can help bridge the gap between the average health outcomes for White people versus URMs. If an underserved community has an average life expectancy of 63 and a well served one has an average life expectancy of 83, there is A LOT of room for improvement - and having more physicians who come from and will work in these communities will help close this gap.

This goes for White people from rural settings as much as it does for URMs. I have lived in rural White America and they face many of the same issues as Black and Latino communities. The more physicians from rural Kentucky or Arkansas we can get the better the country will be served as well.

 

[DermViser]

This goes for White people from rural settings as much as it does for URMs. I have lived in rural White America and they face many of the same issues as Black and Latino communities. The more physicians from rural Kentucky or Arkansas we can get the better the country will be served as well.

And yet your rural White applicant will get nowhere NEAR the bump that your URM will get (besides medical schools that have specific rural tracks). Don't try to obfuscate the realities of the AA bump by comparing to the rural white applicant.

 

[Amba]

This goes for White people from rural settings as much as it does for URMs. I have lived in rural White America and they face many of the same issues as Black and Latino communities. The more physicians from rural Kentucky or Arkansas we can get the better the country will be served as well.

This doesn't happen though. I'm from rural Wisconsin (i.e. a town with a population <1000 in the middle of nowhere) and this really affected my upbringing. Even though I'm not very interested in rural medicine, the lack of resources, guidance, and opportunities in an environment like this set me back way behind my peers when I entered college.

 

[gookies]

Most mission statements of medical schools basically mention they want to increase diversity, right? To do this, there's the whole "URM Advantage", which everyone should know exists. Given the AMCAS statistics and comparing ORM groups vs. URM groups, there is a significant boost given to URM groups that have the same scores as ORM. I understand there is a lower % of URMs applying compared to the national %, but most URMs that apply (it seems) do sub-par on their academics according to the statistics, and it's uncommon when they have competitive stats. Even though there are also ORMs that also share similar extenuating circumstances, they are mostly overlooked or disregarded. Then, there are affluent URMs that would still get this "advantage" solely based on their skin color in order to increase diversity. I guess this situation happens everywhere when it's the majority.

Also, with the whole, "URMs are more likely to work in underserved areas compared to non-URM." That is true, but the publication linked below also shows that disadvantaged students (SES, etc.) are also more likely to do the same. So given this, non-URMs who are considered disadvantaged due to SES or other factors also are more likely to work in underserved areas, but these individuals still don't get that "boost" URMs have, even though they're trying to fulfill the same goal of working in underserved areas.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23018330

 

[WhittyPsyche]

And yet your rural White applicant will get nowhere NEAR the bump that your URM will get (besides medical schools that have specific rural tracks).

And yet you seem to ignore any response that speaks to the motivating factors and the overall outcomes...

 

[ChemEngMD]

This doesn't happen though. I'm from rural Wisconsin (i.e. a town with a population <1000 in the middle of nowhere) and this really affected my upbringing. Even though I'm not very interested in rural medicine, the lack of resources, guidance, and opportunities in an environment like this set me back way behind my peers when I entered college.

Did you apply disadvantaged or address this specifically within your personal statement?

Any reason you don't want to return to your community? We need more URM physicians returning to URM communities as much as we need rural physicians returning to rural communities.

It isn't a boost for a sake of boost, it's a boost because we need more physicians from those backgrounds. My experience has been that students from rural backgrounds who are really dedicated to serving their communities (not necessarily primary care, but rural communities need specialists too), fair pretty well when applying to medical school.

My experience also shows that just being Black or Latino isn't going to boost you into a top school, they usually want Black and Latino students who are very dedicated to their communities and want to practice in them.

 

[DermViser]

This doesn't happen though. I'm from rural Wisconsin (i.e. a town with a population <1000 in the middle of nowhere) and this really affected my upbringing. Even though I'm not very interested in rural medicine, the lack of resources, guidance, and opportunities in an environment like this set me back way behind my peers when I entered college.

Bingo.

 

[DermViser]

Any reason you don't want to return to your community? We need more URM physicians returning to URM communities as much as we need rural physicians returning to rural communities.

That's bc they're not your social engineering experiment. URM doctors and Rural white doctors respond to incentives the same way all other doctors do. They also don't want to live in areas in which there aren't good resources both for themselves and their patients. It's why even programs with underserved obligations skedaddle once their time is up and don't stay. It's almost expected, hence why communities have to entice them with ridiculous salary offers, which even that isn't enough.

 

[ChemEngMD]

That's bc they're not your social engineering experiment. URM doctors and Rural white doctors respond to incentives the same way all other doctors do. They also don't want to live in areas in which there aren't good resources both for themselves and their patients. It's why even programs with underserved obligations skedaddle once their time is up and don't stay. It's almost expected, hence why communities have to entice them with ridiculous salary offers, which even that isn't enough.

Then why do over 50% of Black medical graduates say they plan on working in underserved areas? Are they going to go in and work for a few years and then run out of town? Some of us are actually invested in our communities and aren't simply looking to move up and out, but rather to bring the entire community up with us.

 

[Amba]

Did you apply disadvantaged or address this specifically within your personal statement?

Any reason you don't want to return to your community? We need more URM physicians returning to URM communities as much as we need rural physicians returning to rural communities.

It isn't a boost for a sake of boost, it's a boost because we need more physicians from those backgrounds. My experience has been that students from rural backgrounds who are really dedicated to serving their communities (not necessarily primary care, but rural communities need specialists too), fair pretty well when applying to medical school.

Addressed some in my personal statement and/or secondary essays.

I completely agree with your point about more URM physicians needing to return to URM communities, and likewise for rural physicians. To me, rural medicine just isn't very appealing. However, I do feel growing up in this community has taught me a lot of interacting with people with similar backgrounds in the future.

If I had repeatedly expressed my desire to go into rural medicine in my application, maybe some of my outcomes this cycle would have been different, but that would have been dishonest on my end.

 

[DermViser]

Then why do over 50% of Black medical graduates say they plan on working in underserved areas? Are they going to go in and work for a few years and then run out of town? Some of us are actually invested in our communities and aren't simply looking to move up and out, but rather to bring the entire community up with us.

Yeah 50% of graduates SAY that at graduation. Just look at where they ACTUALLY practice, and it tells a different story. Residency does that to ya.

 

[gookies]

This goes for White people from rural settings as much as it does for URMs. I have lived in rural White America and they face many of the same issues as Black and Latino communities. The more physicians from rural Kentucky or Arkansas we can get the better the country will be served as well.

Funny you acknowledge they do share the same issues, yet in another minority thread, someone replied back with (something you liked), "You can't relate to URMs because you fail to see being an URM is more than socioeconomic status. While many URMs do lack resources and capital, it's also about the intersectionality of being a minority in a majority white culture and the hurdles that come with that."

My response was, "Uh...I am considered a minority if you're comparing me against this "majority white culture". It seems like you only think the ethnicities that qualify to be URM are the only ones that have to overcome obstacles in today's society because they live in a "white" world. ALL minorities have their obstacles, just because they are the minority."

His/her response: "Sorry, I should clarify. I mean historically underrepresented minorities."

Really?

 

[ChemEngMD]

Funny you acknowledge they do share the same issues, yet in another minority thread, someone replied back with, "You can't relate to URMs because you fail to see being an URM is more than socioeconomic status. While many URMs do lack resources and capital, it's also about the intersectionality of being a minority in a majority white culture and the hurdles that come with that."

My response was, "Uh...I am considered a minority if you're comparing me against this "majority white culture". It seems like you only think the ethnicities that qualify to be URM are the only ones that have to overcome obstacles in today's society because they live in a "white" world. ALL minorities have their obstacles, just because they are the minority."

His/her response: "Sorry, I should clarify. I mean historically underrepresented minorities."

Really?

I see where you're coming from but I feel it's a pretty complicated issue. Being a historically underrepresented minority in itself is an issue that all historically underrepresented minorities can related to (regardless of SES) while being low SES is an issue that all low SES people can relate to (regardless of minority status).

There are some people who fall into the cross-section of both of these groups and are low SES underrepresented minorities. But I think what the person you were arguing with was saying is that just because a URM comes from a higher income background doesn't mean he/she won't face the same issues that URMs of all SES face.

So in itself URM status =/= disadvantaged.

They are two separate designations although some applicants may have both.

 

[NontradCA]

I never said it's a conspiracy. Quit putting words in my mouth.

The literature is quite clear regarding the correlation of undergraduate GPA and MCAT score with USMLE Step 1, which is the first hurdle one needs to get over in order to become a licensed physician. Whether admissions officers wish to follow that is another issue altogether and there are med schools that are free to disregard the literature altogether.

That being said, med school admissions officials can't talk out of both sides of their mouths of how important MCAT/GPA are in one breath, but the next moment say oh, it's not that important after all, depending on the skin color of the applicant.

Taking more URMs is not going to "fix the health" of this country as the problems run much deeper. Yet, you have the nerve to say I'm the one that's "idealistic".

Specially admitted students show no higher attrition rate in school or failure of USMLE higher than non special admits, although their USMLE scores are lower. Clinical evaluations show that minority interns perform equal to ORM students.

Yes, URMs get in with lower stats and perhaps score lower on the USMLE. They make equally competent physicians. Is it any surprise to you that board scores do not correlate with competence? I think most attendings will agree.

This is all from the literature.

 

[NontradCA]

Yeah 50% of graduates SAY that at graduation. Just look at where they ACTUALLY practice, and it tells a different story. Residency does that to ya.

The literature also shows that URMs disproportionately serve minorities and poorer populations.

 

[DermViser]

Specially admitted students show no higher attrition rate in school or failure of USMLE higher than non special admits, although their USMLE scores are lower. Clinical evaluations show that minority interns perform equal to ORM students.

Yes, URMs get in with lower stats and perhaps score lower on the USMLE. They make equally competent physicians. Is it any surprise to you that board scores do not correlate with competence? I think most attendings will agree.

This is all from the literature.

Please link to those studies. I am genuinely interested in seeing them.

Sorry but if you look at the data: https://www.aamc.org/download/165418/data/aibvol9_no11.pdf.pdf. Those with an MCAT of 27 or higher had a attrition rate of 2.5%, more than double the attrition rate of those with an MCAT of 28 or higher.

NO ONE has said that board scores alone are a mark of clinical competence. That being said all specialties have different matching board score averages for a reason, as Step 1 board scores are correlated with passage of specialty board exams, which are required to practice.

 

[NontradCA]

Please link to those studies. I am genuinely interested in seeing them.

NO ONE has said that board scores alone are a mark of clinical competence. That being said all specialties have different matching board score averages for a reason, as Step 1 board scores are correlated with passage of specialty board exams, which are required to practice.

I'm just saying what the lit says. You can google it, as that's what I'd have to do to find them. I did a literature review for my "capstone" class and AA in medical school admissions was what I did. I don't have the review off hand but I can get it and post the links to sources later.

 

[NontradCA]

That data is SES and MCAT, not race...

It's unreliable for this debate.

 

[Mr Interesting]

**Disclaimer - I'm having trouble posting this link so I copied and pasted relevant parts. This will be a bit long.**

The Rationale for Diversity in the Health Professions: A Review of the Evidence

U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Health Resources and Services Administration Bureau of Health Professions October 2006

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

Several racial and ethnic minority groups and people from socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds are significantly underrepresented among health professionals in the United States. Underrepresented minority (URM) groups have traditionally included African-Americans, Mexican Americans, Native Americans, and mainland Puerto Ricans. Numerous public and private programs aim to remedy this underrepresentation by promoting the preparedness and resources available to minority and socioeconomically disadvantaged health professions candidates, and the admissions and retention of these candidates in the health professions pipeline and workforce. In recent years, however, competing demands for resources, along with shifting public opinion about policies aimed to assist members of specific racial and ethnic groups, have threatened the base of support for “diversity programs.” Continued support for these programs will increasingly rely on evidence that they provide a measurable public benefit.

The most compelling argument for a more diverse health professions workforce is that it will lead to improvements in public health. We therefore examined the evidence addressing the contention that health professions diversity will lead to improved population health outcomes. Specifically, we searched for, reviewed, and synthesized publicly available studies addressing four separate hypotheses:

1) The service patterns hypothesis: that health professionals from racial and ethnic minority and socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds are more likely than others to serve racial and ethnic minority and socioeconomically disadvantaged populations, thereby improving access to care for vulnerable populations and in turn, improving health outcomes;

2) The concordance hypothesis: that increasing the number of racial and ethnic minority health professionals—by providing greater opportunity for minority patients to see a practitioner from their own racial or ethnic group or, for patients with limited English proficiency, to see a practitioner who speaks their primary language—will improve the quality of communication, comfort level, trust, partnership, and decision making in patient-practitioner relationships, thereby increasing use of appropriate health care and adherence to effective programs, ultimately resulting in improved health outcomes;

3) The trust in health care hypothesis: that greater diversity in the health care workforce will increase trust in the health care delivery system among minority and socioeconomically disadvantaged populations, and will thereby increase their propensity to use health services that lead to improved health outcomes; and

4) The professional advocacy hypothesis: that health professionals from racial and ethnic minority and socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds will be more likely than others to provide leadership and advocacy for policies and programs aimed at improving health care for vulnerable populations, thereby increasing health care access and quality, and ultimately health outcomes for those populations.

We reviewed a total of 55 studies:17 for service patterns, 36 for concordance, and 2 for trust in health care. We were not able to identify any empirical studies addressing the hypothesis that greater health professions diversity results in greater advocacy or implementation of programs and policies targeting health care for minority and other disadvantaged populations. Our review generated the following findings:


• URM health professionals, particularly physicians, disproportionately serve minority and other medically underserved populations;

• minority patients tend to receive better interpersonal care from practitioners of their own race or ethnicity, particularly in primary care and mental health settings;

• non-English speaking patients experience better interpersonal care, greater medical comprehension, and greater likelihood of keeping follow-up appointments when they see a language-concordant practitioner, particularly in mental health care; and

• insufficient evidence exists as to whether greater health professions diversity leads to greater trust in health care or greater advocacy for disadvantaged populations.



CONCLUSION

Programs and policies to promote racial, ethnic, and socioeconomic diversity in the health professions are based, at least in part, on the principle that a more diverse health care workforce will improve public health. We developed a framework and reviewed publicly available evidence addressing that principle. We found that current evidence supports the notion that greater workforce diversity may lead to improved public health, primarily through greater access to care for underserved populations and better interpersonal interactions between patients and health professionals. We identified, however, several gaps in the evidence and proposed an agenda for future research that would help to fill those gaps. Conducting this research will be essential to solidifying the evidence base underlying programs and policies to increase diversity among health professionals in the United States.

 

[terra330]

This goes for White people from rural settings as much as it does for URMs. I have lived in rural White America and they face many of the same issues as Black and Latino communities. The more physicians from rural Kentucky or Arkansas we can get the better the country will be served as well.

If that's then case, shouldn't family income and home address play a bigger role than race? To my knowledge they don't (correct me if I'm wrong)

 

[ChemEngMD]

If that's then case, shouldn't family income and home address play a bigger role than race? To my knowledge they don't (correct me if I'm wrong)

That's up for debate, which should be given a larger role in admissions. My understanding is that they are both given consideration.

If you are "disadvantaged" status schools will definitely look at that. If you are URM status, schools will definitely look at that. If you are both URM and disadvantaged then you'll definitely be looked at.

I don't have the data, but perhaps a larger portion of URM students are both URM & disadvantaged and thus have a "double boost" as opposed to URMs who are not disadvantaged.

In these arguments someone always comes in with the abolish URM and just do SES diversity line every time, but that doesn't work. You need both.

 

[La Presse]

@DermViser

Are you really a resident? You are unusually active on these boards...just wondering. 😛 You probably just have a lot of downtime though....

 

[DermViser]

@DermViser

Are you really a resident? You are unusually active on these boards...just wondering. 😛 You probably just have a lot of downtime though....

A Derm resident, so yes. The work-life balance is as good as it is going to get. A lot of ridiculousness to disinfect, although that's expected in the premed forum.

 

[LilEngineThatCould]

If that's then case, shouldn't family income and home address play a bigger role than race? To my knowledge they don't (correct me if I'm wrong)

There are way more questions on the AMCAS app about your upbringing (including address and community) than there are about your race/ethnicity. So I'd think they're just as interested in the "disadvantaged" as they are in the URMs, at least that's the impression I get off the app.

 

[DermViser]

There are way more questions on the AMCAS app about your upbringing (including address and community) than there are about your race/ethnicity. So I'd think they're just as interested in the "disadvantaged" as they are in the URMs, at least that's the impression I get off the app.

Not if you see the guy wanting to claim disadvantaged status thread. See LizzyM's response.

 

[LilEngineThatCould]

Not if you see the guy wanting to claim disadvantaged status thread. See LizzyM's response.

He's in an interesting situation though and all LizzyM said was that you have to be careful about WHY you're claiming disadvantaged status because if you don't have enough reason to back it up then you sound like you're just trying to inflate your app. It's the same as if someone was only 1/32 Native American (or some other minority) and wanted to claim URM, they'd frown on that too (unless if you're one of those really mixed ppl lol) and each school decides who is a URM and who isn't

 

[dyspareunia]

Lol perhaps not to you. However, people do like to point out that there is a strong correlation between MCAT scores and step scores all the time here. I was just sharing something I found interesting.

There is not a strong correlation. Stop it.