So, why exactly is dental school( or college in general) becoming more expensive?

[Rvting]

Does this really all come back to the government guarantying loans allowing the schools to increase tuition with little-to-no-risk? And why is dental school, of all medical schools, so expensive?

I have a whole list of data from dental school explorer and only about 10 of the 67 American dental schools have out-state tuition for ~350K or less.

How can this be fixed, if at all?

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[homunculusus]

Med student here. AFAIK dental schools charge the student for equipment and there is more "hands on" training so to speak. Med school may have more funding/partnerships with hospitals and I assume faculty who are salaried may be more willing to provide more of their time to teach. At my school, the faculty will often reschedule or present lectures again on the weekend or other days (even in the evening) if a few students were unable to attend.

For example, most public state MD schools charge less than private schools. Texas schools being the lowest at ~$10k, and most other public MD schools being 25-45k/yr (which is a bargain for such a degree IMO). There are also many scholarships even for those without any impressive feats. I'm below average (stats) for my MD school and I still got a few scholarships.

On the other hand, private schools (like 95% of DO and many MD) do not get state funding and therefore they pass on the cost to students.

I interviewed at one DO school where tuition was >60k and they raved about the "ground breaking" clinical sim equipment they had and how each one cost $300-$500k etc. Shiny building, tall glass doors, served steak during the interview. EVERYBODY gets a "free iPad/laptop"... etc etc.

Guess what? My current MD school has a much better match list, no "fancy" gadgets, our students clinical skills by second year are at/above the level of a 3rd (and some even 4th) year medical student. Our tuition is cheap, no fancy things. We don't get any free gadgets but our school budgets generously and we can buy what we want (better and cheaper). I will have saved $100k+ over going to the "fancy" school and have an easier time matching a much more competitive/lucrative specialty.

I used to work in school departments during undergrad and that "free" dell laptop the school gives you that has an i5 process and 8gb RAM is maybe a $500 value at most but the school pays $1500+ for it because they don't get any deals, buy direct, and will buy a useless 4 year $300 warranty that you'll never use. Meanwhile you could have just bought a $900 macbook air or a $900 dell XPS (better build quality than the plastic junk they give u)

 

[deleted903013]

Since the government has no cap on loans, schools can charge whatever they want as the government will give the students the loans no questions asked. Since there are so many pre dents, most of whom know nothing about finances, schools have no incentive to keep tuition and costs low and therefore steadily raise tuition well above the rate of inflation.

 

[deleted903013]

How can this be fixed, if at all?

The government can quit guaranteeing student loans

 

[homunculusus]

The government can quit guaranteeing student loans

I disagree. 80% of med and dental students already come from families that are upper-middle class. Now whether or not parents (even rich ones) want to help pay for school is another discussion.

If you limit access to loans then poor students like myself would never have made it into med school. Many poor students would rather be $600k in debt and make $200k essentially giving themselves the same lifestyle as someone without debt making $90k than not being able to fulfill their dream. With my current grades I'm highly likely to match into my desired specialty that makes >400k. Even with a debt of $350k I will have no problem paying it back (but I will just refinance to 3% and aggressively invest instead for bigger returns)

I do, however, have many classmates who also came from poor backgrounds who have a passion for work that pays less. They have no issue knowing they will make 180-220k pre-tax while owing this much, since it is what they want to do and far better than the $40k/yr life they had growing up

EDIT: At least in my experience, people (immigrants) like myself have less FOMO and are more than willing to grind. Many of our parents had nothing or gave up everything to come work $10/hr jobs. Most of our family friends/relatives are making <$50k. I have no one to compare myself to (other than my college friends). Those from families earning $150k> may feel some FOMO because Jim next door is making $100k at 26 due to networking/connections and living large (this is what my wealthier friends have told me)

 

[GoDental101]

I disagree. 80% of med and dental students already come from families that are upper-middle class. Now whether or not parents (even rich ones) want to help pay for school is another discussion.

If you limit access to loans then poor students like myself would never have made it into med school. Many poor students would rather be $600k in debt and make $200k essentially giving themselves the same lifestyle as someone without debt making $90k than not being able to fulfill their dream. With my current grades I'm highly likely to match into my desired specialty that makes >400k. Even with a debt of $350k I will have no problem paying it back (but I will just refinance to 3% and aggressively invest instead for bigger returns)

I do, however, have many classmates who also came from poor backgrounds who have a passion for work that pays less. They have no issue knowing they will make 180-220k pre-tax while owing this much, since it is what they want to do and far better than the $40k/yr life they had growing up

Supply vs. Demand...with stories like the above it makes sense why the cost just keeps rising. The number of students willing to take on the debt for the hope of a better future is much greater than the number of available seats by a long shot. School is just going to keep getting more expensive until the number of students willing to take of med/dental school debts drops below the number of available seats which I doubt will happen anytime soon. Expect prices to continue to rise.

 

[GoDental101]

Since the government has no cap on loans, schools can charge whatever they want as the government will give the students the loans no questions asked. Since there are so many pre dents, most of whom know nothing about finances, schools have no incentive to keep tuition and costs low and therefore steadily raise tuition well above the rate of inflation.

The government can quit guaranteeing student loans

This is all true, but the government will not stop guaranteeing the loans for the poor and underserved as this would decrease equity for all in the pursuit of higher education. Resulting in higher educational costs, but as long as the number of qualified doctors graduating each year is high enough to support the health care system for the public then the cost of school will continue to rise as it should. Supply vs. demand. Being a doctor or a dentist doesn't guarantee you'll be rich and it shouldn't. There are no guarantees in life. That's why you'd be prudent to be aware of how much you are spending on your education.

 

[homunculusus]

Supply vs. Demand...with stories like the above it makes sense why the cost just keeps rising. The number of students willing to take on the debt for the hope of a better future is much greater than the number of available seats by a long shot. School is just going to keep getting more expensive until the number of students willing to take of med/dental school debts drops below the number of available seats which I doubt will happen anytime soon. Expect prices to continue to rise.

At least in medicine, there are 30% more residency spots than there are AMERICAN graduates. https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/2022-Match-by-the-Numbers-FINAL.pdf

If you limit the number of US students, those spots will be filled by FMGs (Foreign medical graduates). These people often have $0 debt and some have even been practicing as attendings in their countries for a while. In fact, when you look at med school classes, 25% are asian/indian while they're only 9% of the population. Many of my ORM classmate's parents are doctors, and have no problem paying cash in full since they had no debt coming here and quickly built wealth earning $250k+/yr. This only increases the demand

 

[homunculusus]

Personally, I'd like to see the continued expansion of DO schools (they're expanding and opening up like crazy). I hope in 5-10 years this is enough to displace the 10,000+ IMG and FMG graduates matching here. Many IMGs come from for-profit caribbean schools which are predatory and the FMGs are usually those with $$ in their own country. I would like to see a world where say 97% of residents are US students and 3% are only the most exceptional attendings from Europe, Pakistan, India, etc. Instead, many of the 10000+ foreign grads are simply students who studied only to the test (USMLE Step 1/2) and often lack in other areas like bedside manners, understanding of social inequalities, etc...

What I also would like to see is 3-year medical schools (many are beginning to offer such tracks to primary care and some also offer it for specialties). A few schools will even reimburse 1 year tuition. Penn state for example is $100k tuition ($50k off) for 3 years if you do primary care

I would also like to see undergrad overhauled and just make it a 3+3 undergrad/medschool or 3+4 (for those who want to do a research year)

Where Do Your Med School Tuition Dollars Go?

'Our debt is an amount of money that schools might not actually need'

www.medpagetoday.com

Even the dean of NYU med admitted that med school is inefficient and could easily cost 10% of what it does if they just fired the "check collectors". Instead, they could buy everyone UWorld, Sketchy, B&B, Anki, etc for ~$1000, hire 2 competent basic science professors to answer questions, and 5 faculty to train/advise clinical skills.

I don't need 30 professors at $300k/each telling me what glycolysis is when a medical student can do it better in a 5 minute youtube video

The problem is that people like you, your colleagues, and myself will also want that $300k/yr cushy faculty job when we're 60 years old and can't hustle out in the real world anymore and keep the status quo alive

 

[deleted903013]

I disagree. 80% of med and dental students already come from families that are upper-middle class. Now whether or not parents (even rich ones) want to help pay for school is another discussion.

If you limit access to loans then poor students like myself would never have made it into med school. Many poor students would rather be $600k in debt and make $200k essentially giving themselves the same lifestyle as someone without debt making $90k than not being able to fulfill their dream. With my current grades I'm highly likely to match into my desired specialty that makes >400k. Even with a debt of $350k I will have no problem paying it back (but I will just refinance to 3% and aggressively invest instead for bigger returns)

I do, however, have many classmates who also came from poor backgrounds who have a passion for work that pays less. They have no issue knowing they will make 180-220k pre-tax while owing this much, since it is what they want to do and far better than the $40k/yr life they had growing up

EDIT: At least in my experience, people (immigrants) like myself have less FOMO and are more than willing to grind. Many of our parents had nothing or gave up everything to come work $10/hr jobs. Most of our family friends/relatives are making <$50k. I have no one to compare myself to (other than my college friends). Those from families earning $150k> may feel some FOMO because Jim next door is making $100k at 26 due to networking/connections and living large (this is what my wealthier friends have told me)

I'm not saying we abolish the government giving out loans. I agree there needs to be a way for people to get loans. However, the government just blindly giving out 200k for someone to get something like an English degree makes zero sense. There needs to be some sort of oversight where young, naive students aren't taken advantage of. When it comes to dentistry, giving out 600k in loans for a job that pays 120k equally doesn't make sense. None of this should be guaranteed.

 

[deleted903013]

This is all true, but the government will not stop guaranteeing the loans for the poor and underserved as this would decrease equity for all in the pursuit of higher education. Resulting in higher educational costs, but as long as the number of qualified doctors graduating each year is high enough to support the health care system for the public then the cost of school will continue to rise as it should. Supply vs. demand. Being a doctor or a dentist doesn't guarantee you'll be rich and it shouldn't. There are no guarantees in life. That's why you'd be prudent to be aware of how much you are spending on your education.

But the issue now is that the only people who can afford things like dental school is the super rich. I'm middle class and have almost no help from my parents. It just isn't reasonable for them to pay 40k for my tuition plus cost of living. College use to be affordable. Back when college wasn't a necessity for a job, you could just work to pay for college. That's what my dad did. Today, that's not even remotely reasonable. It's a sort of scam where the only way to get a job in today's market is to have a college degree but the only way to get a degree is to incur a significant amount of debt without any scholarships. Colleges have every incentive to jack up prices because they know they're a utility that young people need today. It's hard to see college suddenly not becoming a pre requisite for jobs anytime in the near future so some sort of solution has to be done to lower costs. I'm all ears to what that is, whether it's capping tuition, freezing tuition hikes, restricting student loans. Something has to be done.

 

[homunculusus]

I'm not saying we abolish the government giving out loans. I agree there needs to be a way for people to get loans. However, the government just blindly giving out 200k for someone to get something like an English degree makes zero sense. There needs to be some sort of oversight where young, naive students aren't taken advantage of. When it comes to dentistry, giving out 600k in loans for a job that pays 120k equally doesn't make sense. None of this should be guaranteed.

I understand where you're coming from. The government should force (yes I said force) income share agreements for all undergrad studies. Schools will not offer a $200k music degree if they know the job will only earn $30k/yr.

I think dent/med is more complicated than that. We live in the land of the free and you can't force someone to not attend a school if it's X price if they couldn't get into a cheaper school. Everyone has a diff plan on paying it back. I assume some dentists have parental help, others will go rural, others will live on ramen, etc...

In medicine, some will do PSLF and get it cancelled tax-free after 10 years especially if they stay in academics (3-5 yrs of residency often count). Others will just aggressively pay it off, others will refinance and cash flow it, etc.

Year after year, fewer med students graduate with debt. I believe 31% US student graduate debt free now. However, the average debt is increasing for those who take out loans. At least in medicine, this usually works it self out. The student with $400k debt load (more likely to be a DO going into family medicine since their schools are expensive and generally lack scholarships) is more likely to live in a lower COL/higher salary area.

Financially speaking, it is virtually the same if you graduate with $0 debt and take a $200k/yr job as a family doc in San Francisco or graduate with $400k and take a $300k/yr family doc job in Wisconsin that also offers $200k loan reimbursement. What's funny is that despite rural med often making 2x salary of big city med, even med students with >$400k will not go there and are OKAY with barely scraping by in a bigger city.

You have to look at the end point.

Ultimately, we need to make community college free for all to further incentivize lower debt burdens. Trim the fat in med ed, dental, pharm, etc.

 

[Ghost1704]

I disagree. 80% of med and dental students already come from families that are upper-middle class. Now whether or not parents (even rich ones) want to help pay for school is another discussion.

If you limit access to loans then poor students like myself would never have made it into med school. Many poor students would rather be $600k in debt and make $200k essentially giving themselves the same lifestyle as someone without debt making $90k than not being able to fulfill their dream. With my current grades I'm highly likely to match into my desired specialty that makes >400k. Even with a debt of $350k I will have no problem paying it back (but I will just refinance to 3% and aggressively invest instead for bigger returns)

I do, however, have many classmates who also came from poor backgrounds who have a passion for work that pays less. They have no issue knowing they will make 180-220k pre-tax while owing this much, since it is what they want to do and far better than the $40k/yr life they had growing up

EDIT: At least in my experience, people (immigrants) like myself have less FOMO and are more than willing to grind. Many of our parents had nothing or gave up everything to come work $10/hr jobs. Most of our family friends/relatives are making may feel some FOMO because Jim next door is making $100k at 26 due to networking/connections and living large (this is what my wealthier friends have told me)

As a fellow immigrant who just got into dental school, I can 100% agree with the FOMO statement. In my case, my parents were pretty well off in my home country (Mom was a dentist ~ the reason I chose dentistry, and my dad a computer engineer). However, if you weren’t a doctor, engineer, or lawyer you would basically end up poor and going to college would be a waste of time. So they dropped everything and sacrificed their comfortable upper-middle class life, so that my siblings and I could have the choice to do whatever we wanted. In my experience, most people that have had a similar story to mine always go all out and have not been afraid to take on risks, for a chance at a better life. Essentially, trading a 40k lifestyle for an 80k+ one, depending on their field. Where as I’ve met lots of people who come from upper middle class families, which is mostly the case in my area, who many times are unmotivated and scared to bet on themselves. I know that you don’t have to be poor, etc.; to want to succeed but when you mentioned that, it spoke to me because I can relate to you.

As far me, I got into a Texas dental school and really grateful that I will get to avoid the 350k+ plus tuition costs at essentially half the cost. Schools are expensive but if you are passionate about what you want to become, I view it as a great ROI on your overall happiness and well being. Money will come and go, and I have heard many stories of people paying off their 400k loans in 5 years by working towards it and aggressively paying it off. You just have to put your mind to it and live frugally for a while and never be in debt again.

 

[deleted903013]

I think dent/med is more complicated than that. We live in the land of the free and you can't force someone to not attend a school if it's X price if they couldn't get into a cheaper school. Everyone has a diff plan on paying it back. I assume some dentists have parental help, others will go rural, others will live on ramen, etc...

Interestingly enough, most with high debt loads in dental school just go on programs like income based repayment where they'll only pay off a percentage of their debt every month and then after 25 years the amount that's forgiven becomes taxable incomes and pay a "tax bomb". Most still go to the desirable areas and live normal lives because they're just kicking that can down the road. It will be interesting to see how the people handle the tax bomb and what will happen if they can't afford it.

 

[homunculusus]

Interestingly enough, most with high debt loads in dental school just go on programs like income based repayment where they'll only pay off a percentage of their debt every month and then after 25 years the amount that's forgiven becomes taxable incomes and pay a "tax bomb". Most still go to the desirable areas and live normal lives because they're just kicking that can down the road. It will be interesting to see how the people handle the tax bomb and what will happen if they can't afford it.

Another argument can be made that leverage also helps cushion the blow from the tax bomb. I'm not a finance guru so I'm going to generalize and make some estimates here.

The average family med doc in 2005 made $170k whereas now it's $250-$280k. Even if this is barely breaking even with inflation, a near $100k increase in income (even if it's only $75k post tax) will contribute more to wealth growth than someone (say a nurse) without debt going from 45k -> 70k in the last decade and a half. If these trends continue into the future you can see how that benefits high income earners. If your monthly gas cost goes from $200 --> $350/month you won't feel a thing when you're making $200k a year but the guy making $17/hr will even if both your employers gave you a 3% raise to compensate

Fixed costs make up a much SMALLER portion of the raise the doctor got. Let's assume both lived similar lives. $1k rent/mortgage, $400 food, $300 utilities (to name a few expenses), if these fixed expenses increased 75% since 2005, they would have virtually no effect on the doctor.

Doctors can also leverage 0% down phyiscian loans and in general afford more expensive property. A $1m home will appreciate much more ($ wise) than a $300k home (of someone making $60k) over 20-30 years. I would assume most are smart enough to save up for the tax bomb but even if they don't they're likely to hold more equity in their assets. Those who are savvy and live frugally early on, aggressively invest in multiple properties/become a landlord, pick up extra shifts or run their own practice are also likely to have no problem repaying the debt.

 

[GoDental101]

But the issue now is that the only people who can afford things like dental school is the super rich. I'm middle class and have almost no help from my parents. It just isn't reasonable for them to pay 40k for my tuition plus cost of living. College use to be affordable. Back when college wasn't a necessity for a job, you could just work to pay for college. That's what my dad did. Today, that's not even remotely reasonable. It's a sort of scam where the only way to get a job in today's market is to have a college degree but the only way to get a degree is to incur a significant amount of debt without any scholarships. Colleges have every incentive to jack up prices because they know they're a utility that young people need today. It's hard to see college suddenly not becoming a pre requisite for jobs anytime in the near future so some sort of solution has to be done to lower costs. I'm all ears to what that is, whether it's capping tuition, freezing tuition hikes, restricting student loans. Something has to be done.

Plenty of great jobs out there do not require any degree. Plumber, electrician, garbage truck driver, contractor, computer programmer the list goes on and on. Once the cost of dental/med school is so high that doing a job that requires no degree is more profitable then the upcoming generation will trend towards those jobs. No need to limit cost or tuition or anything. Just don’t be upset if you aren’t as well off as the plumber next door if you went 700k in debt to become a dentist and that plumber got paid to learn to become a plumber. He was simply smarter than you. Just cause someone becomes a doctor/dentist doesn’t mean they should automatically deserve a lifestyle greater than the average public. The supply and demand for goods/services will determine who gets the better lifestyle.

 

[homunculusus]

Plenty of great jobs out there do not require any degree. Plumber, electrician, garbage truck driver, contractor, computer programmer the list goes on and on. Once the cost of dental/med school is so high that doing a job that requires no degree is more profitable then the upcoming generation will trend towards those jobs. No need to limit cost or tuition or anything. Just don’t be upset if you aren’t as well off as the plumber next door if you went 700k in debt to become a dentist and that plumber got paid to learn to become a plumber. He was simply smarter than you. Just cause someone becomes a doctor/dentist doesn’t mean they should automatically deserve a lifestyle greater than the average public. The supply and demand for goods/services will determine who gets the better lifestyle.

As someone who has knows many truckers I can tell you it's not as glamorous as you might think. They do make good money for the training required (55-70k depending on how often you want to come home) but the long hours, constant sitting, loneliness, stress, eating junk food 24/7, not seeing your family for days if you want more $$ are all terrible trade offs. Not everyone is smart enough to buy 3-4 trucks and hire drivers to increase their income by $15-$20k/per driver. The people I know did it to get their family out of poverty and into good neighborhoods. These jobs are also very mind numbing.

As a dentist you have 9-5 and you're always home to see your kids. If you work Saturdays you'll make $$$$$$$ and you'll never come home sweaty.

I see these comparisons being made all of the time and they're just not good. I knew a group of young albanian guys who all did trucking right out of high school and were driving $50k cars by 22, living in a big house, wearing designer clothes, etc. If they're smart and invest in the right things they can probably sustain that lifestyle and make $80k+ for the rest of their lives. However, many people in these type of jobs are gonna wear out their body by 50. I know dentists are at risk for neck/back pain too but it doesn't even come close

I myself left a $60k/yr job right out of undergrad, did an expensive SMP + multiple years of lost income (worked low wage clinical jobs) and I do not regret it. We have others in my class who came from finance/tech making $150k because they didn't feel like they were challenged enough or making an impact. To each their own but there are reasons beyond money to do med/dent (and the average networth of doctors and dentists is more than that of the professions you described)

I agree with your last point. It's why orthopedics can make $800k and pediatricians make $200k. Who's to say the work ortho does is more "important"? Its simply that people/insurance is willing to pay more for it. However, doctors/dentists will always be in demand and command a respectable income. Hustling hard while you're young will set one up for life. In other fields, once your body is shot you're done unless you're an owner. As a future doctor, I can always scale back and do consulting, telemedicine, etc. As a dentist you can employ others and generate income that way

 

[deleted903013]

Plenty of great jobs out there do not require any degree. Plumber, electrician, garbage truck driver, contractor, computer programmer the list goes on and on. Once the cost of dental/med school is so high that doing a job that requires no degree is more profitable then the upcoming generation will trend towards those jobs. No need to limit cost or tuition or anything. Just don’t be upset if you aren’t as well off as the plumber next door if you went 700k in debt to become a dentist and that plumber got paid to learn to become a plumber. He was simply smarter than you. Just cause someone becomes a doctor/dentist doesn’t mean they should automatically deserve a lifestyle greater than the average public. The supply and demand for goods/services will determine who gets the better lifestyle.

Agreed trades don't get a good enough of a reputation and you're infinitely better off being a welder than a philosophy BA. However, outside of really the trades, it's pretty darn hard to get work good without a degree when it totally shouldn't be. Not everybody is called to be a tradesman. It's tough tough work. With that said, there is insane amounts of propaganda about college that we've all experienced since birth. I don't think it should be possible for anyone to take on 700k of education debt regardless if a naive 20 year old wants to do it. That's criminal. I don't care if the free market allows it or not. In the same way, you shouldn't be allowed to sell yourself into indentured servitude. Humans deserve basic dignity.

 

[Rvting]

I'm not saying we abolish the government giving out loans.

I can settle for simply abolishing the government

 

[Rvting]

. I don't think it should be possible for anyone to take on 700k of education debt regardless if a naive 20 year old wants to do it. That's criminal. I don't care if the free market allows it or not. In the same way, you shouldn't be allowed to sell yourself into indentured servitude. Humans deserve basic dignity.

The funny thing is that at the age of 20 you can hardly get a business loan, but the government is A-Okay giving them tens of thousands (or hundreds for pre-dent) for a useless degree.

 

[homunculusus]

The funny thing is that at the age of 20 you can hardly get a business loan, but the government is A-Okay giving them tens of thousands (or hundreds for pre-dent) for a useless degree.

The reason behind that is business loans are discharged in bankruptcy while student loan debt isn't. Imagine an 18 year old with the bright idea of making/selling their own hoodies and borrowing $100k from the gov to do that then going bust in 3 months. Or if a few get together and conspire to each draw $100k and fraudulently funnel it to the "business" of another (this is how many people built their wealth in the 70s and 80s through insurance fraud and taking out large loans, laundering it to friends/family and declaring bankruptcy. What about if a parent forces their child to take out a "business" loans and takes it for themselves..

On the otherhand, student debt is first used to pay tuition then whatever is left goes to the student for housing/living expenses. Whether or not the student uses it (wisely) for those purposes is another discussion.

 

[2TH MVR]

I played golf with a dentist friend of mine who teaches at Midwestern Univ-Arizona. He commented that he looks forward to the annual salary bumps. 401K matches. Bonuses. 3 weeks of paid vacation. PTO.

Who is going to pay for all of this?

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

OP, I’d like to introduce you to the Bennett Hypothesis:

The Bennett Hypothesis Confirmed -- Again

Richard Vedder points out that The Bennett Hypothesis is shown to be right once again.

www.forbes.com

If you limit access to loans then poor students like myself would never have made it into med school.

And for every 1 of you there were probably 5 others who were scared away from ever attending college in the first place due to the prohibitively inflated costs all thanks to the government. Every single government program comes with myriad unintended consequences.

Big Hoss

 

[George Lincoln]

Does this really all come back to the government guarantying loans allowing the schools to increase tuition with little-to-no-risk? And why is dental school, of all medical schools, so expensive?

I have a whole list of data from dental school explorer and only about 10 of the 67 American dental schools have out-state tuition for ~350K or less.

How can this be fixed, if at all?

Big problem which continues to haunt students after they graduate. They are forced into the arms of corporate Dentistry because they can’t assume the debt to open an office.
The reality is that CPI has been increasing at 3% a year for the past 50 years while tuition costs have risen 8% in the same time frame. They certainly are not paying Dental Educators enough so not sure where the monies are going. In fact recruiting of Dental Educators is a very real problem because of the lack of funding.
Realistically Dental Schools are the most expensive professional schools to fund as they are not affiliated with hospitals and the clinics are very expensive to build.
There is no simple answer because it’s multi faceted. Probably you need someone who knows how to operate a successful business. It’s kind of like the movie Dave. I’ve never found people in healthcare to be particularly astute in finance so I made my fortune not getting involved with people with healthcare backgrounds. Every venture with healthcare professionals I’ve lost money or broke even.
When I speak to people in healthcare about finance I get deer in the headlights looks. On the flip side over my career I’ve given free or discounted care to the tune of millions of dollars so I don’t want to be seen as a totally bottom line individual. I do this because it’s what we signed up for, but what I didn’t sign up for is to be stupid.
So we need a review of Dental School financing much like the Geis Report did for curriculum.

 

[doyinDO]

Personally, I'd like to see the continued expansion of DO schools (they're expanding and opening up like crazy). I hope in 5-10 years this is enough to displace the 10,000+ IMG and FMG graduates matching here. Many IMGs come from for-profit caribbean schools which are predatory and the FMGs are usually those with $$ in their own country. I would like to see a world where say 97% of residents are US students and 3% are only the most exceptional attendings from Europe, Pakistan, India, etc. Instead, many of the 10000+ foreign grads are simply students who studied only to the test (USMLE Step 1/2) and often lack in other areas like bedside manners, understanding of social inequalities, etc...

What I also would like to see is 3-year medical schools (many are beginning to offer such tracks to primary care and some also offer it for specialties). A few schools will even reimburse 1 year tuition. Penn state for example is $100k tuition ($50k off) for 3 years if you do primary care

I would also like to see undergrad overhauled and just make it a 3+3 undergrad/medschool or 3+4 (for those who want to do a research year)

Where Do Your Med School Tuition Dollars Go?

'Our debt is an amount of money that schools might not actually need'

www.medpagetoday.com

Even the dean of NYU med admitted that med school is inefficient and could easily cost 10% of what it does if they just fired the "check collectors". Instead, they could buy everyone UWorld, Sketchy, B&B, Anki, etc for ~$1000, hire 2 competent basic science professors to answer questions, and 5 faculty to train/advise clinical skills.

I don't need 30 professors at $300k/each telling me what glycolysis is when a medical student can do it better in a 5 minute youtube video

The problem is that people like you, your colleagues, and myself will also want that $300k/yr cushy faculty job when we're 60 years old and can't hustle out in the real world anymore and keep the status quo alive

I agree that the current medical education system is super outdated. Med school shouldn't be 4 years and we should move toward 3+3. I think a way to fix rising tuition would need government intervention that is somehow applicable to all schools. There are too many schools to give individual attention to.

 

[Rvting]

I agree that the current medical education system is super outdated. Med school shouldn't be 4 years and we should move toward 3+3. I think a way to fix rising tuition would need government intervention that is somehow applicable to all schools. There are too many schools to give individual attention to.

by 3+3 do you mean 3 years undergrad 3 grad?

From my personal experience, if you chop off all/most humanity classes from a bio major requirement a student can graduate easily within 3 years, or even 2.5 if they take summer courses.

The thing is about using government to solve this problem is that they created the problem in the first place and they use student debt as leverage to gain support and voters, politicians are waaay too inclined to not do anything but say they will.