So...Would You do D.O.?

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Would you ever choose DO?

  • Yes

    Votes: 283 66.6%

  • No

    Votes: 142 33.4%
  • Total voters
    425
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JaggerPlate said:
It's a case by case basis, but the AOA has a DO shadowing program that's pretty user friendly and most of the DOs know you need a LOR so they are cool about it. I signed up, got instant replies, shadowed a very cool DO for a day, he wrote me a LOR, piece of cake.
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So you're saying they are useful? What a novel concept...


Note: I'm bashing the rest of the world.
 
Oh, and I applied to both MD and DO programs.

My stats are fine for either one. I'm interested in learning OMM, so I applied to more DO schools, but a few MD schools seemed so awesome I thought I should give them a chance. For me it is about seeing the schools, the instructors, and the students to determine the best fit.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Did you miss the OMM Journal Club in the Osteo forum???
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Apparently. I don't go in the osteo forum much.

There is evidence out there for lots of the more mainstream OMM procedures, and even stuff trying to research some of the more student rejected stuff. Most of it isn't in journal like NEJM, but it's still researched and published ... people just usually assume it isn't there (it's one of those SDN mantras).
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The article I provided was from the NEJM. I realize that there is probably more work w/in the community about OMM, however, it's hard to ignore the bias there.

Most people don't use OMM because it's hard to get really good at it, they want to study other things in school, they don't have the time/care to keep up with it on rotations/residency (or the resources), and when time is limited during office visits, there isn't enough time to do it properly OR they don't want to hassle PPO reimbursement issues (some PPO companies fight it if you aren't a NMM/OMM fellowship or residency trained DO).
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It's hard to get really good at anything in medicine. If the benefits of OMM were such that it was worth it to the patients to put the time and effort in to learn it, more people would use it and it would be stolen by the allopathic community.

I am sure there are benefits to OMM, I just don't think they are enough for most D.O.'s to keep up.
 
I think a lot of it depends on your interests in medicine as well. Even within MD schools there are pretty big differences on focus. This may be subtle and may not necessarily limit a student's options, but I could definitely see people applying MD/PhD doing PHD rather than DO. Certainly there is generally a greater emphasis on patient care over research in most DO schools even though there may be good opportunities for individual students.
 
Old Grunt said:
It's hard to get really good at anything in medicine. If the benefits of OMM were such that it was worth it to the patients to put the time and effort in to learn it, more people would use it and it would be stolen by the allopathic community.
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It isn't taken by the allopathic community because they don't have time for it. The curricula are set, and schools aren't about to rearrange them, whereas DO schools have been set up like this since day one. There are allopathic schools that offer electives in OMM, there are also CME courses, and MDs that learn and practice OMM (there's a strict OMM clinic in my neck of the woods, and it's actually 2 MDs and 1 DO). So it's not like there isn't some interest, and there really isn't such thing as an allopathic vs osteopathic community in practice. I'm not saying MD schools are breaking down the walls to get it, but the interest isn't zero, at least in practicing MDs. Also, I feel like OMM is kind of a unique thing to do during the first 2 years of medical school because it's essentially a clinical therapy that students are trying to learn while doing basic sciences. In my eyes, this is essentially why residencies exist ... picking a field, and falling head first into the science, pathology, and clinical practice. It takes a lot of work and it is separate from med school, where OMM isn't, and I'm NOT saying it's anywhere near the work you do in residency, but it's still stuff that needs perfection thrown at students during a time when they don't have the resources to do so. That, at the very least, would distract from learning it.

Also, the benefits are there ... and it is an adjunct therapy and even DOs who use it, get this.
 
AwakenedApollo said:
Hey, JaggerPlate! I genuinely mean what I am about to say. Please get a life. At the very least, please get a life outside of SDN. That is all. Getting mad at me, a random pre-med student on the web, will not change anything.
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Silly little boy, there is no such thing as life outside SDN.
 
I said no but I have to admit I was lazy and didn't read the whole you can't practice medicine ever clause, which changes my answer to yes. My bad.
 
shiftingmirage said:
Main reason I didn't apply osteo - I did not want to do amcas again. They need to link the two services.
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It seems like every grad program has their own service (i.e. law, physician's assistant, allo, D.O., etc.)...what would help everyone is if they could centralize graduate school applications into a single service, within reason of course.
 
I don't buy the "extra application" excuse. We're talking about pre-meds here. Those that are willing to go above and beyond to become doctors. Its not hard to complete a second application service, especially if you write your personal statement within the constraints of both.
 
AwakenedApollo said:
Hey, JaggerPlate! I genuinely mean what I am about to say. Please get a life. At the very least, please get a life outside of SDN. That is all. Getting mad at me, a random pre-med student on the web, will not change anything.
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Have I achieved this type of SDN status??? People are making trolling accounts just to attack me??? Amazing.
 
I will be applying to all of my state's MD schools and its one DO. Truthfully I'd prefer to attend the local MD school here for sake of sparing living expenses but if a DO school offered me an acceptance I'd be the first to move, lol.
 
Bacchus said:
I don't buy the "extra application" excuse. We're talking about pre-meds here. Those that are willing to go above and beyond to become doctors. Its not hard to complete a second application service, especially if you write your personal statement within the constraints of both.
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I don't think it's an excuse, just a nuisance, lol. Hec, I'd fill out 35 applications if it meant they'd accept me :laugh:
 
Bacchus said:
I don't buy the "extra application" excuse. We're talking about pre-meds here. Those that are willing to go above and beyond to become doctors. Its not hard to complete a second application service, especially if you write your personal statement within the constraints of both.
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If I'm not mistaken, applying to 2 MD schools through AMCAS is cheaper than 1 MD school and 1 DO school. There is always that...

Obviously the numbers are for example only... I don't think many people only apply to 2.
 
SusGob711 said:
I will be applying to all of my state's MD schools and its one DO. Truthfully I'd prefer to attend the local MD school here for sake of sparing living expenses but if a DO school offered me an acceptance I'd be the first to move, lol.
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This is a smart attitude 👍
 
You know what's awesome? I had a letter of rec from a DO that I didn't know was a DO. I put him down on the list as an MD.
 
JaggerPlate said:
It isn't taken by the allopathic community because they don't have time for it. The curricula are set, and schools aren't about to rearrange them, whereas DO schools have been set up like this since day one. There are allopathic schools that offer electives in OMM, there are also CME courses, and MDs that learn and practice OMM (there's a strict OMM clinic in my neck of the woods, and it's actually 2 MDs and 1 DO). So it's not like there isn't some interest, and there really isn't such thing as an allopathic vs osteopathic community in practice. I'm not saying MD schools are breaking down the walls to get it, but the interest isn't zero, at least in practicing MDs. Also, I feel like OMM is kind of a unique thing to do during the first 2 years of medical school because it's essentially a clinical therapy that students are trying to learn while doing basic sciences. In my eyes, this is essentially why residencies exist ... picking a field, and falling head first into the science, pathology, and clinical practice. It takes a lot of work and it is separate from med school, where OMM isn't, and I'm NOT saying it's anywhere near the work you do in residency, but it's still stuff that needs perfection thrown at students during a time when they don't have the resources to do so. That, at the very least, would distract from learning it.

Also, the benefits are there ... and it is an adjunct therapy and even DOs who use it, get this.
Click to expand...

My point is simply that there isn't enough evidence based medicine behind it for it to be used wholesale by the profession. Time isn't the issue. (If DO schools can find a way to cram it into a four year curriculum on top of everything else, so could MD schools.) Efficacy is.

I believe that Still thought that manipulation could cure everything, to include infectious disease. Obviously that is not true, and no one pretends it is. However, even for discreet pathologies that OMM should be able to show an advantage fore (i.e. lower back pain), it's results are modest at best.

As one of the D.O.'s who responded to the Andersson article state; it doesn't do the profession any favors to over-hype the issue.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with OMM and I'd be happy to refer people to DO's who do it. I just suspect that like other alternative medicine practices, the results of OMM are too subjective to ever nail down.

That being said, I'd be happy to look at any peer reviewed articles (from mainstream sources) that suggest otherwise.
 
Bacchus said:
I don't buy the "extra application" excuse. We're talking about pre-meds here. Those that are willing to go above and beyond to become doctors. Its not hard to complete a second application service, especially if you write your personal statement within the constraints of both.
Click to expand...

Not every pre-med out there is an overachiever. I went to a school on the quarter system, so my spring classes went until mid July. I think the first day you can submit amcas is July first...kinda problematic if you have finals in 1.5 weeks. I was also finishing up a year of p-chem, with lab reports averaging 28-30 pages. Umm....I wanted to make up for the 8000 hours of sleep I missed during the year. ok..not 8000, but you get my point. I also was taking two summer classes to meet requirements for a school...UofI. I was also working and doing research at the time. So yea, call me lazy, but I didn't want to fill out another application service.

Was that the only reason, no. Like I said earlier, I would not know how to get my hands on a DO letter. I don't think the AOA pairing you up with a doc is well known. I also was getting robbed with amcas as it is. How does it cost you $35 to ELECTRONICALLY send my app to additional schools? Last I checked, e-mails are sent for free. Oh, you have to verify my grades, well I think I pay $85 bucks up front, and for the record, a high school student could verify my grades, so let's say you pay them $10/hr, and it takes them a very generous 2 hrs to verify...that's $20. Umm...where did the rest of my money go?

So the reasons why I did not apply DO, in no particular order: different application service, I probably spent $2-3k on MD schools - I was broke. I had no way to get a DO letter. I seriously thought I would get into some of the schools I applied to. Why go through the hassle, spend more money, when I feel like my goal of getting into a med school will be achieved by the applications I've already sent out?

But with all that said, if I just had to click a box on amcas to add a DO school, I would have done so.
 
shiftingmirage said:
Not every pre-med out there is an overachiever. I went to a school on the quarter system, so my spring classes went until mid July. I think the first day you can submit amcas is July first...kinda problematic if you have finals in 1.5 weeks. I was also finishing up a year of p-chem, with lab reports averaging 28-30 pages. Umm....I wanted to make up for the 8000 hours of sleep I missed during the year. ok..not 8000, but you get my point. I also was taking two summer classes to meet requirements for a school...UofI. I was also working and doing research at the time. So yea, call me lazy, but I didn't want to fill out another application service.

Was that the only reason, no. Like I said earlier, I would not know how to get my hands on a DO letter. I don't think the AOA pairing you up with a doc is well known. I also was getting robbed with amcas as it is. How does it cost you $35 to ELECTRONICALLY send my app to additional schools? Last I checked, e-mails are sent for free. Oh, you have to verify my grades, well I think I pay $85 bucks up front, and for the record, a high school student could verify my grades, so let's say you pay them $10/hr, and it takes them a very generous 2 hrs to verify...that's $20. Umm...where did the rest of my money go?

So the reasons why I did not apply DO, in no particular order: different application service, I probably spent $2-3k on MD schools - I was broke. I had no way to get a DO letter. I seriously thought I would get into some of the schools I applied to. Why go through the hassle, spend more money, when I feel like my goal of getting into a med school will be achieved by the applications I've already sent out?

But with all that said, if I just had to click a box on amcas to add a DO school, I would have done so.
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Same here.

Lots of Texans only apply to their instate system for similar reasons. And lots of people who might otherwise apply to Texas schools don't do it because of the second app system.
 
The fact that so many people voted they would NOT go DO makes me really sad.

I thought 99% of the people on here really wanted to be physicians. I didn't realize so many of you simply wanted the letters "M" and "D" after your name, at that you'd rather not be a physician than go without those letters. I have a strong feeling many of you will be disappointed in your life choices after you realize you've entered the field for the wrong reasons.
 
flip26 said:
Same here.

Lots of Texans only apply to their instate system for similar reasons. And lots of people who might otherwise apply to Texas schools don't do it because of the second app system.
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+2

I wanted to apply to 1 or 2 texas schools, but decided against it due to the separate system and additional application charges.


I voted no but in my defense I didn't read before I voted. However I voted along the lines of many of the reasons that shiftingmirage mentioned. So, if I hadn't jumped the gun and voted w/o reading I would've voted yes. Sorry for not reading guys!
 
TGibson81 said:
What is trolling?
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one of the cleaner and more comprehensive definitions i found at urbandictionary.com (which i suggest you visit): Trolling is trying to get a rise out of someone. Forcing them to respond to you, either through wise-crackery, posting incorrect information, asking blatantly stupid questions, or other foolishness. However, trolling statements are never true or are ever meant to be construed as such. Nearly all trolled statements are meant to be funny to some people, so it does have some social/entertainment value.
 
illegallysmooth said:
I thought 99% of the people on here really wanted to be physicians.
Click to expand...

I also find it interesting that like, no one calls someone, bob smith, MD. It's just Dr. Smith. Think of every time you have gone to see a physician as a patient. It's always Dr. The only time ya see the letters are on the nameplate in your office, and on documents you sign. Everywhere else, is "Dr." or Bob.
 
Old Grunt said:
My point is simply that there isn't enough evidence based medicine behind it for it to be used wholesale by the profession. Time isn't the issue. (If DO schools can find a way to cram it into a four year curriculum on top of everything else, so could MD schools.) Efficacy is.

I believe that Still thought that manipulation could cure everything, to include infectious disease. Obviously that is not true, and no one pretends it is. However, even for discreet pathologies that OMM should be able to show an advantage fore (i.e. lower back pain), it's results are modest at best.

As one of the D.O.'s who responded to the Andersson article state; it doesn't do the profession any favors to over-hype the issue.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with OMM and I'd be happy to refer people to DO's who do it. I just suspect that like other alternative medicine practices, the results of OMM are too subjective to ever nail down.

That being said, I'd be happy to look at any peer reviewed articles (from mainstream sources) that suggest otherwise.
Click to expand...


A local D.O. posted an ad in a community arts journal that says:

"Meet ******* D.O., ABFM, AOBFP"

"Dr. ******'s approach to wellness brings together both conventional medicine and evidence-based complementary treatments."

I was struck first by the fact that even as a pre-med, I couldn't for sure confirm what those numerous letters behind her name meant. I guarantee the general public will not appreciate them either. Why not, "**** D.O., Board-Certified Family Practice Physician." ???? Everyone is looking for a PCP!

Then, it seems that she does incorporate traditional osteopathic medicine into her practice and is advertising based on that. However, what's with the "evidence-based" thrown in there? I can only guess she's trying to be proactive against the majority of those who think that OMM (assuming that's what she's referring to as complementary treatments) is not all that "evidence-based."

Just found this interesting. This ad will probably not due her justice. Needs to contact marketing department immediately.
 
Old Grunt said:
That being said, I'd be happy to look at any peer reviewed articles (from mainstream sources) that suggest otherwise.
Click to expand...

Nah ... there's no changing your mind, and this is the issue with 99% of debates involving OMM on SDN:

"It's not evidence based"

" http://blogs.do-online.org/dailyreport.php?itemid=39671 there's one that was conducted recently at TCOM and published in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology."

" ... I don't like the source."


It's never ending. OMM is an adjunct therapy, and those who advocate otherwise aren't acting in the patients best interest. However, because it is an adjunct therapy and not a cure for cancer, you really aren't going to see it on the cover of Time or Science. However, I don't think things like NEJM or AJOB/GYN are too shabby, nor am I surprised when the results say 'yeah, it's good, but not a cure all,' or when studies bring up more questions because researching manual therapy is difficult due to limited number of subjects, the inability to have a double blind study with respect to patient and doctor, differing level of skill in practitioners, and having to come up with sham/placebo treatments which fool the subject without doing any harm or good.
 
I believe that's "cobra commander" to you, and we like his avatar.
 
AwakenedApollo said:
Hey, JaggerPlate! At the very least, please change your avatar. It is irritating. Thank you.
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i'm generally very nice, but go away. we like jagger. or at least i do. avatar and all. take your own advice about getting a life outside of sdn if it bothers you so much.
 
The Poet Sings said:
i'm generally very nice, but go away. we like jagger. or at least i do. avatar and all. take your own advice about getting a life outside of sdn if it bothers you so much.
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Aww I like you too ... all of you 😍



:meanie:
 
The Poet Sings said:
i'm generally very nice, but go away. we like jagger. or at least i do. avatar and all. take your own advice about getting a life outside of sdn if it bothers you so much.
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I agree. *puts on Chris Crocker impersonation* Leave Jagger alone!!! HE'S A HUMAN!!!
 
Mackey said:
As a paramedic for several years before coming to medical school, as well as living with my girlfriend who is out at work right now, as a paramedic, going for her nursing degree, I think I have some insight into how it works, Sparky. A bit more than a premed.

Heres the raw deal: There are a ton of healthcare workers out there who work longer, harder hours doing far less glamorous work than the physicians. Doctors do not keep the hospital standing from day to day. Wait till you're a resident on the wards and get into an argument with the nursing staff. See who's side your attending takes. Though, you might not see much as you're getting thrown right underneath the bus.

Don't think for a moment that you have it that much tougher than the rest of the medical community. You're going to offend a lot of people if you keep spouting off about how you are the only one making sacrifices.

If you continue to do so, however, try not to claim "kissing professor's @sses" as a valid argument as towards why you have it harder.
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I'm already past the "kissing professors ***es" thing. And it is a pain to do so. To get into nursing school you have to do no such thing. You aren't under the immense pressure of obtaining perfect grades and test scores all the time either. There are literally nursing programs EVERYWHERE, you can even become an RN at a community college. You can't honestly believe that getting into nursing, or becoming a paramedic, takes the same amount of hard work and sacrifice that becoming a doctor does.

There is no harder job in the medical community to obtain, and complete the training for, than being a doctor. Simple as that. We might all have crappy working hours, but nobody else (in the medical community) has made the same sacrifices that doctors have.

And of course i wouldn't say this kind of stuff to people's faces unless we were friends. Just like i wouldn't call out some kid with a 25 MCAT and shoddy GPA that got into medical school just because he's got a "year round tan". Doesn't mean I can't think it, discuss it with friends, or argue it on SDN.
 
AwakenedApollo said:
All right, I can't help it, JaggerPlate. Let's be honest. You are too stupid for MD schools. In fact, your undergraduate school is pathetic. Are you in some other health professions school or program right now? I know you can't make it to a US MD school, but you can't even make a DO school the first time around? Are you actually treating patients in a few years? Many American off-shore medical students, most URMs in medicine, and a few US DO students such as yourself make me afraid for the health of your future patients. Wait, are you at least going to PCOM, MSUCOM, CCOM, DMUCOM, OUCOM, or UMDNJSOM next year? No? Ouch. That is all. You can go on and banish me from SDN now. I know you want to. In case you are wondering, I am going to Stanford Med next year.
Click to expand...

I don't know why people feel they need to act like this... does putting people down and then mention your Stanford acceptance give you some kind of personal satisfaction or something? and your going to be treating patients in a few years? Sorry, but you need to get over yourself. You need to realize that there are going to be people in your life you're going to not like or disagree with, but that doesn't mean you need to berate people to get a point across.
 
AwakenedApollo said:
All right, I can't help it, JaggerPlate. Let's be honest. You are too stupid for MD schools. In fact, your undergraduate school is pathetic. Are you in some other health professions school or program right now? I know you can't make it to a US MD school, but you can't even make a DO school the first time around? Are you actually treating patients in a few years? Many American off-shore medical students, most URMs in medicine, and a few US DO students such as yourself make me afraid for the health of your future patients. Wait, are you at least going to PCOM, MSUCOM, CCOM, DMUCOM, OUCOM, or UMDNJSOM next year? No? Ouch. That is all. You can go on and banish me from SDN now. I know you want to. In case you are wondering, I am going to Stanford Med next year.
Click to expand...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Dude this is seriously amazing. I know your point is to knock me down a peg, tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, etc, but honestly all you're doing is feeding the ego which apparently drives you nuts. I could answer all your accusations here (the one about my undergraduate school 'sucking' particularly makes me laugh), but technically ... feeding trolls is frowned upon.
 
Last edited:
AwakenedApollo said:
Dr. Wiggin (on your Public Profile) writes, "You have a post on... literally every thread I visit." Need I say more? In any case, I will! Yes, you do offer valuable insight many times. However, no amount of insight (or foresight) can replace experience, which you will have in time. Stop offering your words on topics that you know little of. Many SDNers are frustrated with your words, especially some DO students. Reading a few internet sites and a million SDN threads does not make you knowledgeable. It means you've learned to use a "search" button. I recognize great potential in you. However, like many pre-meds, you are too quick to react and too volatile. I understand your pride, your insecurities, and your ambitions that cause you to be that way. However, there is a time and a setting for all things.
Click to expand...

I also wanted to state ... just for everyone's FYI, that Dr Wiggin's post on my profile says:

"You have a post on... literally every thread I visit. At this point I am looking for your post on threads because you always offer excellent insight haha. Thank you!"

Just didn't want another poster badmouthed.
 
There is a large underlying assumption that all people who apply to MD schools want to be just another physician. This is not true.
 
AwakenedApollo said:
All right, I can't help it, JaggerPlate. Let's be honest. You are too stupid for MD schools. In fact, your undergraduate school is pathetic. Are you in some other health professions school or program right now? I know you can't make it to a US MD school, but you can't even make a DO school the first time around? Are you actually treating patients in a few years? Many American off-shore medical students, most URMs in medicine, and a few US DO students such as yourself make me afraid for the health of your future patients. Wait, are you at least going to PCOM, MSUCOM, CCOM, DMUCOM, OUCOM, or UMDNJSOM next year? No? Ouch. That is all. You can go on and banish me from SDN now. I know you want to. In case you are wondering, I am going to Stanford Med next year.
Click to expand...

the first bolded point is just... pointless. it doesn't matter what someone does before med school. they still have to get in and pass tests. so no need to be afraid!

and secondly, nobody was wondering, but at least it gives the stanford kids a heads up to know you'll be joining their ranks. i know i'd want to know if a total (expletive of choice) was going to my school.
 
The Poet Sings said:
the first bolded point is just... pointless. it doesn't matter what someone does before med school. they still have to get in and pass tests. so no need to be afraid!

and secondly, nobody was wondering, but at least it gives the stanford kids a heads up to know you'll be joining their ranks. i know i'd want to know if a total (expletive of choice) was going to my school.
Click to expand...

LOL something tells me this kid really isn't headed to Stanford Med.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Nah ... there's no changing your mind, and this is the issue with 99% of debates involving OMM on SDN:
Click to expand...

Kindly tell me what I really think. It's much appreciated.

"It's not evidence based"

" http://blogs.do-online.org/dailyreport.php?itemid=39671 there's one that was conducted recently at TCOM and published in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology."

" ... I don't like the source."

It's never ending. OMM is an adjunct therapy, and those who advocate otherwise aren't acting in the patients best interest. However, because it is an adjunct therapy and not a cure for cancer, you really aren't going to see it on the cover of Time or Science. However, I don't think things like NEJM or AJOB/GYN are too shabby, nor am I surprised when the results say 'yeah, it's good, but not a cure all,' or when studies bring up more questions because researching manual therapy is difficult due to limited number of subjects, the inability to have a double blind study with respect to patient and doctor, differing level of skill in practitioners, and having to come up with sham/placebo treatments which fool the subject without doing any harm or good.
Click to expand...

You know, the nice thing about the medical field, is that it is based in the scientific method. That means we don't have to rely on our opinions on the matter when people are actually doing the legwork to look at the issue in an objective manner.

As I pointed out, OMM is not strongly supported as an adjunct therapy by the scant research that has been done on it (and we are talking about a practice that has been around for over 100 years), and the problems you highlighted about doing research on the matter further highlights the subjective nature of the treatment (though with the exception of the vetting process, Andersson had a pretty good methodology).

As I said, if the evidence strongly supported OMM as a treatment modality, it would be adopted by MD schools and more than 8% of DOs (if I remember the percentage correctly) would use it in their practice.
 
Old Grunt said:
You know, the nice thing about the medical field, is that it is based in the scientific method. That means we don't have to rely on our opinions on the matter when people are actually doing the legwork to look at the issue in an objective manner.

As I pointed out, OMM is not strongly supported as an adjunct therapy by the scant research that has been done on it (and we are talking about a practice that has been around for over 100 years), and the problems you highlighted about doing research on the matter further highlights the subjective nature of the treatment (though with the exception of the vetting process, Andersson had a pretty good methodology).

As I said, if the evidence strongly supported OMM as a treatment modality, it would be adopted by MD schools and more than 8% of DOs (if I remember the percentage correctly) would use it in their practice.
Click to expand...

Ugh, you're proving my point ... what's wrong with the study I just linked that was conducted at University of Texas Health Sciences and published in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology ????
 
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