SOAP 2015

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Yeah I'm probably not really in a position to make any rational arguments right now. Congrats to all who matched or SOAPed. I am sincerely happy for your success. I'm sure I will figure something out. Right now I probably just need to step back and take a break from this until they release what's left. Y'all have a good afternoon/evening!
 
"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

Keep it up and never lose hope Good Luck everyone
 
Regarding Post-SOAP strategies:

I don't really have any answers. I'm hoping that the final list you receive lets you know which programs had positions outside of SOAP. If you start cold-calling programs, remember that East coast offices will close at 5pm, so you may only get voice mail. Start with programs in Central time and work your way West, then circle back to the East. But don't put a lot of pressure on yourself. I believe that many programs who decided to wait for after SOAP know that there are quality applicants remaining and want the time to really consider applications and conduct interviews.

docmama, after reading a bit of your story on this thread, my first suggestion would be to update your letters. You'll need the one from your former PD and having the one from your former mentor is fine, but replace the others with something more current. It's important to show that you still have clinical skills and can hit the ground running when a program does give you a chance.
 
Keona said:
I think it's that we have more medical students than residencies in the United states alone, we can't go to another country and practice. Please correct me if I am wrong . I'm an AMG and have no idea what to do now
Click to expand...

There are more slots than AMGs. What happens is when you put USMDs, USDOs, IMGs, and FMGs all in the pool, there aren't enough slots and some of the AMGs are edged out by the others. What specialty were you going for?

docmama said:
Sorry for getting a little defensive. It's just weighing particularly heavy on my mind right now (gee, can't imagine why. . .😛). I'm usually the LAST person to advocate for any kind of government entitlement, but the laws that restrict this whole process are just a little bit ludicrous. Either loosen up restrictions on what MDs without residencies are allowed to do (i.e., allow them to convert their MD into a PA degree or compete for PA jobs), or help out with their debt when they can't get jobs that pay the kind of salary it requires to repay those loans because of the limitations the government put on the practice of medicine in the US in the first place.
Click to expand...

Look up the new legislation in Missouri and Arkansas. It hasn't started yet, but it looks like unmatched MDs will be able to practice as midlevels in those states at some point in the future.

iniquus said:
The political correctness and idealism seems to cause us to believe that all people in the SOAP were entitled to become a doctor, and that is not always the case.
Click to expand...

Frankly, I think the word "entitle" has become as cliche, meaningless, and antagonistic as the word "professionalism" in medical circles. No one is entitled to become a doctor, just like no one is entitled to become a garbage man. That doesn't mean that people who spend a fortune in tuition don't have every right to bitch, vent, complain, and scream up a storm when they meet all the requirements of an MD degree and earn said degree, yet can't get licensed because there aren't enough residency slots for everyone who graduates. It's not entitlement. It's profound disappointment at a system that puts you through the ringer, then tells you after four years of basic and clinical science that the only thing you're qualified for is working at McDonald's while PAs and NPs, with half your education get to practice independently WITHOUT residency.
 
Mass Effect said:
There are more slots than AMGs. What happens is when you put USMDs, USDOs, IMGs, and FMGs all in the pool, there aren't enough slots and some of the AMGs are edged out by the others. . .Frankly, I think the word "entitle" has become as cliche, meaningless, and antagonistic as the word "professionalism" in medical circles. No one is entitled to become a doctor, just like no one is entitled to become a garbage man. That doesn't mean that people who spend a fortune in tuition don't have every right to bitch, vent, complain, and scream up a storm when they meet all the requirements of an MD degree and earn said degree, yet can't get licensed because there aren't enough residency slots for everyone who graduates. It's not entitlement. It's profound disappointment at a system that puts you through the ringer, then tells you after four years of basic and clinical science that the only thing you're qualified for is working at McDonald's while PAs and NPs, with half your education get to practice independently WITHOUT residency.
Click to expand...

THIS. So. much. THIS!
 
mcl said:
docmama, after reading a bit of your story on this thread, my first suggestion would be to update your letters. You'll need the one from your former PD and having the one from your former mentor is fine, but replace the others with something more current. It's important to show that you still have clinical skills and can hit the ground running when a program does give you a chance.
Click to expand...

I have current letters from my former PD, PC, the current PD, and my former mentor. All written last fall.
 
docmama said:
I have current letters from my former PD, PC, the current PD, and my former mentor. All written last fall.
Click to expand...

But I'm assuming they reference the time you were in residency back in 2011-12. And the PC letter is close to meaningless to programs (and I say that as a PC). Programs want to see evidence of current clinical activity. If SOAP and Post-SOAP don't work out, that's one way you could improve your ap.
 
Goro said:
We still have more residency slots than there are people to fill them. The gap is shrinking and IMGs will be the first ones squeezed out.
Click to expand...
[citation needed]

But we have more match applicants (over 40,000) than residency slots (about 30,000) already, and AMGs are getting squeezed out. Today. Right here in this thread.

Are you suggesting that there will be some structural changes to the match, where AMGs will match and SOAP before IMGs match? That would represent a major change in the residency match process.
 
so we're allowed to start contacting non-SOAP programs at 6PM est? or 5 PM est?
 
sazerac said:
[citation needed]

But we have more match applicants (over 40,000) than residency slots (about 30,000) already, and AMGs are getting squeezed out. Today. Right here in this thread.

Are you suggesting that there will be some structural changes to the match, where AMGs will match and SOAP before IMGs match? That would represent a major change in the residency match process.
Click to expand...

To be honest, I think it's ridiculous that USAMG's got squeezed out of Match and SOAP, while foreign students get spots....it seems counter intuitive to me. I think there needs to be some major rehaul of the structure of residency selection, etc. The only rational explanation I can think of is that foreign grads maybe apply to less competitive hospitals/prematch that US grads over look?

I'm so sorry that you guys are going through this....absolutely horrible. I'm sending everyone computer hugs and wishing you all the best....please don't give up!! =/
 
I dont suppose the NRMP will be uploading the list of programs which dont participate in the Match? They already updated the list which of SOAP-participating programs
 
enamor2 said:
To be honest, I think it's ridiculous that USAMG's got squeezed out of Match and SOAP, while foreign students get spots..../
Click to expand...

I don't think it's a case of IMGs/FMGs squeezing out similarly qualified AMGs. I'm not saying that I don't think there should be more GME spots, but I don't think it's all together fair to blame IMGs/FMGs for applying for residencies, particularly if they are qualified. My apologies if that is not what you're saying here. Also, to be honest here, I am a (an?) US IMG who matched into a fairly competitive field so perhaps I'm letting my personal bias influence my opinion about this. I try to say neutral though.
 
Can we email those programs today which still have vacancies (or don't participate in SOAP) and express our interest in them? And also email our CV at the same time? Or would calling them tomorrow and faxing CVs be a better idea?
 
sazerac said:
[citation needed]

But we have more match applicants (over 40,000) than residency slots (about 30,000) already, and AMGs are getting squeezed out. Today. Right here in this thread.

Are you suggesting that there will be some structural changes to the match, where AMGs will match and SOAP before IMGs match? That would represent a major change in the residency match process.
Click to expand...

That's what Canada does. It's a good idea.
 
sazerac said:
[citation needed]

But we have more match applicants (over 40,000) than residency slots (about 30,000) already, and AMGs are getting squeezed out. Today. Right here in this thread.

Are you suggesting that there will be some structural changes to the match, where AMGs will match and SOAP before IMGs match? That would represent a major change in the residency match process.
Click to expand...
There is no reason to increase the residency training spots to every applicant who wants to train here in the US. Life is competition. Every job anyone gets is competitive. Residency is no different. Some american MDs will lose out on desired spots to other MDs, some lose spots to DOs, some will lose spots to superior foreign physicians, some will lose spots to Caribbean grads. The vast majority match, and those that don't usually match the following year. When you choose to train abroad, you know the risks that you're taking. And the barriers for foreign physicians to move here and train are already high.
As for people coming back after leaving another program, that's much more complicated. A lot depends on how and why you left. Quitting family medicine for anesthesia because you hate clinic and like applied pharmacology and instant gratification is very different than resigning in lieu of termination, etc.
 
sazerac said:
[citation needed]

But we have more match applicants (over 40,000) than residency slots (about 30,000) already, and AMGs are getting squeezed out. Today. Right here in this thread.

Are you suggesting that there will be some structural changes to the match, where AMGs will match and SOAP before IMGs match? That would represent a major change in the residency match process.
Click to expand...

enamor2 said:
To be honest, I think it's ridiculous that USAMG's got squeezed out of Match and SOAP, while foreign students get spots....it seems counter intuitive to me. I think there needs to be some major rehaul of the structure of residency selection, etc. The only rational explanation I can think of is that foreign grads maybe apply to less competitive hospitals/prematch that US grads over look?

I'm so sorry that you guys are going through this....absolutely horrible. I'm sending everyone computer hugs and wishing you all the best....please don't give up!! =/
Click to expand...

It would be very hard to justify giving any more preference to AMGs than the status quo. The deck is already heavily stacked in favor of AMGs. I am an AMG, FWIW. And if the goal is to supply this country with the best doctors, it seems very silly to create a system which would give the worst AMG priority over the best IMG/FMG.

The worst part of the whole system seems to be the existence of schools outside of the US which are essentially devoted to training American citizens who plan to pursue post-graduate training in the US after graduation. Without this type of profitable institution, harsh realities that one may not succeed at every step of training may be delivered after undergrad rather than after medical school.
 
I am so confused. The list was supposed to update to include ALL open positions yes? It hasn't changed from the one that updated an hour ago.
 
I've been taking care of my three children full time while supporting my husband's military career (which he's now phasing out of) for the past three years. What kind of clinical work can I do in the meantime?
 
mcl said:
But I'm assuming they reference the time you were in residency back in 2011-12. And the PC letter is close to meaningless to programs (and I say that as a PC). Programs want to see evidence of current clinical activity. If SOAP and Post-SOAP don't work out, that's one way you could improve your ap.
Click to expand...

I've been taking care of my three children full time while supporting my husband's military career (which he's now phasing out of) for the past three years. What kind of clinical work can I do in the meantime?
 
docmama said:
I am so confused. The list was supposed to update to include ALL open positions yes? It hasn't changed from the one that updated an hour ago.
Click to expand...

i am pretty sure that's the most updated list. they unexpectedly updated the list at 5 vs. 6 PM. either way, i think we're good to go w/ contacting non-SOAP programs.
 
Mass Effect said:
There are more slots than AMGs. What happens is when you put USMDs, USDOs, IMGs, and FMGs all in the pool, there aren't enough slots and some of the AMGs are edged out by the others. What specialty were you going for?



Look up the new legislation in Missouri and Arkansas. It hasn't started yet, but it looks like unmatched MDs will be able to practice as midlevels in those states at some point in the future.



Frankly, I think the word "entitle" has become as cliche, meaningless, and antagonistic as the word "professionalism" in medical circles. No one is entitled to become a doctor, just like no one is entitled to become a garbage man. That doesn't mean that people who spend a fortune in tuition don't have every right to bitch, vent, complain, and scream up a storm when they meet all the requirements of an MD degree and earn said degree, yet can't get licensed because there aren't enough residency slots for everyone who graduates. It's not entitlement. It's profound disappointment at a system that puts you through the ringer, then tells you after four years of basic and clinical science that the only thing you're qualified for is working at McDonald's while PAs and NPs, with half your education get to practice independently WITHOUT residency.
Click to expand...

I was originally going for pediatrics. Attempted to get a family medicine position in SOAP and was unsuccessful
 
how do we express our interest to the program coordinator? im having writers block here :O
 
I have called every single FM program with any kind of position on the list. They are all full.
 
Phone vs email ... which methods are most folks using? Any idea whats preferable?
 
I wanted to contact a hospital on the East coast, so I used email as its already 6:30 pm EST and probably everybody left already
 
I just received a reply from ERAS about how we can apply to open spots after SOAP. They said apply as if it's a regular cycle through ERAS. Which means you will have to pay per application.
 
I'm just glad the waterboarding rounds are finally over, at least there is some sort of closure now



"...generating list..."
 
Either way, ERAS will get their cake and eat it too. Obviously they have all your transcripts and letters and there's no way for you to obtain them and send them to multiple places without their help.
 
Applying through ERAS ... is that the only way PDs will offer spots? What if they are also considering direct calls/emails? I can't afford anymore debt :..(

So ideally we apply through ERAS and contact the PDs to consider our applications?
 
docmama said:
I've been taking care of my three children full time while supporting my husband's military career (which he's now phasing out of) for the past three years. What kind of clinical work can I do in the meantime?
Click to expand...

I'm suggesting basic volunteer work at a hospital, public health clinic, free clinic for the underserved, health fair, medical outreach, United Way agency, Red Cross--anything that will show someone looking at your application that you've managed to keep a toe in the medical world. Join your local professional medical society and find a community service project you can work on with a practicing physician. Become visible in that world. Develop contacts. Network. Show that you still have what it takes to become the physician you wanted to be. Get someone on your side who can supplement the supportive letters from your old program with a fresh perspective on your skill set.

I'm not saying this flippantly--I know what having kids and trying to balance life with career means. You'll have to decide whether it's worth it to you to go all in for one more chance if you don't find something before July. Honestly, it may NOT be worth it to you in the end. I now have more than a handful of former residents who graduated but have dropped out of their clinical practices in order to be Mom. I'm just telling you from my perspective as the person who receives and performs the initial review on every ap submitted to my program--I'd want to see a positive letter from your old PD, but I'd also need to see something proactive and at least clinically tangential in order to get you to the invitation stage.
 
mcl said:
I'm suggesting basic volunteer work at a hospital, public health clinic, free clinic for the underserved, health fair, medical outreach, United Way agency, Red Cross--anything that will show someone looking at your application that you've managed to keep a toe in the medical world. Join your local professional medical society and find a community service project you can work on with a practicing physician. Become visible in that world. Develop contacts. Network. Show that you still have what it takes to become the physician you wanted to be. Get someone on your side who can supplement the supportive letters from your old program with a fresh perspective on your skill set.

I'm not saying this flippantly--I know what having kids and trying to balance life with career means. You'll have to decide whether it's worth it to you to go all in for one more chance if you don't find something before July. Honestly, it may NOT be worth it to you in the end. I now have more than a handful of former residents who graduated but have dropped out of their clinical practices in order to be Mom. I'm just telling you from my perspective as the person who receives and performs the initial review on every ap submitted to my program--I'd want to see a positive letter from your old PD, but I'd also need to see something proactive and at least clinically tangential in order to get you to the invitation stage.
Click to expand...

I see. Thank you for your perspective and suggestions -- very helpful! I am definitely at the point of no return, which is why I'm freaking out more than a little. I have gone through this crazy decision cycle in my head so many times in the past year of "I need to get back into medicine or I'll never pay off this debt. . .hey, I forgot how much I LOVE medicine!. . .hey, I just found a program that has a spot and sounds AWESOME!. . .hey, I just had a fantastic interview and they said I was a serious candidate. . .just got the email. Rejected. Ugh, I HATE this. . .but I need to get back into medicine or I'll never pay off this debt." I have many times considered quitting altogether to be Mom, but seriously, how the heck am I going to pay off this debt?
 
docmama said:
unless the voicemail messages were lying 😉
Click to expand...

Right after the SOAP ended, I called the WA Family program that showed 'not participating in SOAP' and had 3 openings. The phone number listed on their website is no longer valid. I called the main hospital operator and asked her to transfer me to FM residency department, instead of transferring, she said 'there are no more openings, it is an error. Even if I was to transfer your call, they will tell you the same thing.' Soooo.. my question is 'who took those three spots in the matter of seconds?
 
lakersno834 said:
Right after the SOAP ended, I called the WA Family program that showed 'not participating in SOAP' and had 3 openings. The phone number listed on their website is no longer valid. I called the main hospital operator and asked her to transfer me to FM residency department, instead of transferring, she said 'there are no more openings, it is an error. Even if I was to transfer your call, they will tell you the same thing.' Soooo.. my question is 'who took those three spots in the matter of seconds?
Click to expand...

I have a feeling we'll be seeing some match violations attached to these "not participating in the SOAP" programs next year. . .
 
lakersno834 said:
Right after the SOAP ended, I called the WA Family program that showed 'not participating in SOAP' and had 3 openings. The phone number listed on their website is no longer valid. I called the main hospital operator and asked her to transfer me to FM residency department, instead of transferring, she said 'there are no more openings, it is an error. Even if I was to transfer your call, they will tell you the same thing.' Soooo.. my question is 'who took those three spots in the matter of seconds?
Click to expand...

Maybe they have saved those spots for someone else???
 
Has anyone been able to contact a program other than their voicemails?
 
docmama said:
Yeah I'm probably not really in a position to make any rational arguments right now. Congrats to all who matched or SOAPed. I am sincerely happy for your success. I'm sure I will figure something out. Right now I probably just need to step back and take a break from this until they release what's left. Y'all have a good afternoon/evening!
Click to expand...

You guys/gals are going through a lot right now. My best outburst are usually of the nonsensical variety. Feel free to vent...nobody should get in the way of that. You guys are definitely in my prayers. The system obviously needs to improve...but lets wait a few days before discussing the politics of this BS.
 
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