Socialized health care in the US

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BAM!

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So if the US spends a higher percentage of its GDP towards healthcare than any other nations in the OECD and has a worse measureable quality of health care (in terms of life expectancy and infant mortality), then how would changing to a socialized healthcare system lower the quality of health care in the US?

Wouldn't it also be cheaper for the US? ie - eliminating the middle men (insurance companies).
 
It may be cheaper, but how would the quality be affected? Obviously, it has shown in Canada to not be so good. People are waiting 6 months to get MRI's and other tests that are necessary. Its a tough call though. I understand the life expectancy and infant mortality rates are better in Canada as opposed to the US, but I think it has to be related to the fact that many Canadians come to America when they need certain tests. Who knows, its a tough problem to solve.
 
USArmyDoc said:
It may be cheaper, but how would the quality be affected? Obviously, it has shown in Canada to not be so good. People are waiting 6 months to get MRI's and other tests that are necessary. Its a tough call though. I understand the life expectancy and infant mortality rates are better in Canada as opposed to the US, but I think it has to be related to the fact that many Canadians come to America when they need certain tests. Who knows, its a tough problem to solve.

lol a lot of the problems are caused by the fact that many americans go across the border to take advantage of their services (like prescription drugs) that cause extra strain on their healthcare system.
 
If we were to change to socialized healthcare, obviously it would take some time to make the transition. However, would we still spend more (as a percentage of GDP) on healthcare than our current state? I understand it will be more expensive for individuals in terms of taxes, less expensive in terms of insurance, and research funding will still play a significant role - as the US funds more reseearch than other countries.
 
el.harpo said:
lol a lot of the problems are caused by the fact that many americans go across the border to take advantage of their services (like prescription drugs) that cause extra strain on their healthcare system.


Good point. I am sure it goes back and forth.
 
BAM! said:
So if the US spends a higher percentage of its GDP towards healthcare than any other nations in the OECD and has a worse measureable quality of health care (in terms of life expectancy and infant mortality), then how would changing to a socialized healthcare system lower the quality of health care in the US?

Wouldn't it also be cheaper for the US? ie - eliminating the middle men (insurance companies).

Socialized health care decreases the quality of doctors: in socialized medicine doctors make a general base rate because they are paid by the government; in other words, they would make a lot less then they do now, probably around 100,000-150,000 a year. This decrease in salary will mean there will be fewer highly qualified individuals who want to become doctors because they are smart enough to the point that they could easily go into law or business and make a lot more. Granted there will still be some highly intelligent people genuinely interested in medicine, but there will also be a lot of people who will now be able to become doctors because medical schools will be less competitive.
 
People need to take an active "consumer" role in their own health care. I'm sick of people bitching about health care costs then going home to watch some crappy TV show they Tivo'ed (through their satellite dish) on a 20 foot screen. 🙄 What do I mean by this mini-rant? 1 - People should expect and budget money for health care; health care should also receive priority over tangible luxury items. In addition, people should be able to shop around until they find the best value for their health care dollars. Most people do some degree of comparative shopping before they buy almost anything. 2 - People also need to take an active role in health maintenance. This is self-explanatory. Eat right and get off your lazy ass. 😡 Genetics play a huge role in health, but you can't control your chromosomes - you can control your own lifestyle.

Socialized medicine would just add the culture of entitlement and sap whatever personal responsibility most people have left.
 
MahlerROCKS said:
Socialized health care decreases the quality of doctors: in socialized medicine doctors make a general base rate because they are paid by the government; in other words, they would make a lot less then they do now, probably around 100,000-150,000 a year. This decrease in salary will mean there will be fewer highly qualified individuals who want to become doctors because they are smart enough to the point that they could easily go into law or business and make a lot more. Granted there will still be some highly intelligent people genuinely interested in medicine, but there will also be a lot of people who will now be able to become doctors because medical schools will be less competitive.

In addition to this point, you will see the end of medical innovation -- the great advances we see in radiology diagnostic devices, robotic surgery, better pharmaceuticals etc. will dry up if there are no longer any consumer dollars at the end of the research tunnel. All these things are driven by the money being spent on healthcare. And the US health engine drives more than just US health innovations. Lots of countries are benefitting from US innovations/advances or benefit by being able to sell their medical devices and innovations to US medical facility consumers (even if in their own country the system is socialized) -- if this all gets paid from a centralized governmental source and the dollars dry up, that's it. Medical advances stop at the current level, and all the great cures and technological advances that may be decades away currently will never come into fruition.
 
JD-MD has a big part of it. At one of the hospitals I work at, I was talking to an ER doc, describing the efficiency of the 'other' hospital I work at - acute cardiac/vascular care. His point was simple - smaller specialty hospitals pull money from community hospitals who need the high-end revenue to break even or actually make money.

My perspective is different. I see it as the market working - and the people who are supposed to benefit, the patients, actually do. Recently we were given gobs of patient awards because people loved our cardiac hospital. People, when given a choice, vote with their wallets. So teaching hospitals, always running new studies on something, stand to gain by offering specialized and rare programs. Socialize medicine and everyone will struggle just to make budget - forget life-saving advances or decent MD class sizes.
 
wut about providing health care based on medical need instead of by income? The government should really take a look at WHAT they're covering instead of WHO they're covering. Low income individuals should not get free medical care over ppl who might be richer, but have a higher need for it. By need, I mean the illnesses that may be life threatening (cancer, diabetes). I know its subjective as to what diseases are more "serious" than others, but it's better than having so many Americans without health insurance at all.

Also, maybe they should provide EVERYONE with free preventative screenings for diseases like cancer. Earlier detection = more chance for survival = less need for long hospital stays and additional treatments = less money spent by insurance companies on covering these patients = more funds available in the future to insure more ppl
 
zurned said:
wut about providing health care based on medical need instead of by income? The government should really take a look at WHAT they're covering instead of WHO they're covering. Low income individuals should not get free medical care over ppl who might be richer, but have a higher need for it. By need, I mean the illnesses that may be life threatening (cancer, diabetes). I know its subjective as to what diseases are more "serious" than others, but it's better than having so many Americans without health insurance at all

Two things: first, your spelling and grammar, although not serious, makes baby Jesus cry, and secondly, a lot of health problems in middleclass/rich people are a result of their sedentary lifestyles and poor preventive health measures. In other words, its a lot easier for a rich person to exercise and eat properly than it is for a low-income individual, so people should have to face the fruits of their actions, including the pecuniary costs that they incur
 
MahlerROCKS said:
Two things: first, your spelling and grammar, although not serious, makes baby Jesus cry, and secondly, a lot of health problems in middleclass/rich people are a result of their sedentary lifestyles and poor preventive health measures. In other words, its a lot easier for a rich person to exercise and eat properly than it is for a low-income individual, so people should halve to face the fruits of their actions, including the pecuniary costs that they incur


Haha, thats great, my spelling and grammar makes baby jesus cry???? And u say that "so people should HALVE to face the fruits of their actions??????
 
zurned said:
Haha, thats great, my spelling and grammar makes baby jesus cry???? And u say that "so people should HALVE to face the fruits of their actions??????

lol, i just noticed it and changed it before your post appeared
 
Law2Doc said:
-- if this all gets paid from a centralized governmental source and the dollars dry up, that's it.

A centralized governmental source... like the NIH?
 
el.harpo said:
lol a lot of the problems are caused by the fact that many americans go across the border to take advantage of their services (like prescription drugs) that cause extra strain on their healthcare system.

I don't understand. If an American need to use services in Canada, wouldn't he/she has to provide a proof of citizenship/eligibility? Also, he/she would have to pay for the prescription drugs - how is this causing extra strains on their healthcare system?
 
This is an interesting thread...I'm surprised to see all the highly opinionated responces, you'd think we were a bunch of pre-politicians instead of pre-meds. Some of the arguments are logical, but I do not agree with those of you who are dissing other healthcare systems, refusing to consider socialized medicine because your pay as a doctor would be less, or that we wouldn't be able to get quality physicians because everyone who's smart would go to another profession. What about the patients??? I do not know how many of you have ever taken a medical economics class or worked with patients who have no insurance, but it's devestating. I'm not pretending I have the answers to solve all the problems, but the current system we got just ain't cuttin' it and I think as future medical providers we should be open to exploring alternatives.
 
Another useful site: https://www.ncsl.org/programs/health/universalhealth.htm

"Currently, at least 18 states have introduced legislation regarding Universal Health Care: California, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Hawaii, Kansas, Illinois, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Missouri, New Hampshire, New York, Ohio, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, and Vermont."

Do you know what's been happening in your state lately?
 
BAM! said:
If we were to change to socialized healthcare, obviously it would take some time to make the transition. However, would we still spend more (as a percentage of GDP) on healthcare than our current state? I understand it will be more expensive for individuals in terms of taxes, less expensive in terms of insurance, and research funding will still play a significant role - as the US funds more reseearch than other countries.

First, we don't have a pure free-market health care system, we actually have some form of a bastardized socialized health care system. Our government pays approximately 50% of healthcare receipts.

Second, there are numerous economic models on how a single-payer system would work, and where the money would come from. Some models have a gross levy on income taxes, some on businesses, and some have it as a valued-added tax. So it is not entirely clear where the money would come from because there are competing models.

As to whether we would pay more? Perhaps, but it's hard to see that. Right now we spend approximately 2x over other top nations in the world. We could continue to spend that amount, and if we did would probably provide superior care (under a single-payer system) than those other nations once our single-payer system reached maturity. We would probably see some savings though, because there are other studies that estimate that 1 out of every 3 health care dollars go towards funding the massive bureaucracy. It is a fact that if we have a single payer that is responsible for collecting bills, paying receipts, instituting one set of billing codes, one agency for managing disputes, etc, that we would save money. We would also probably save money because our government could negotiate the cheapest drug rates (because they would represents all 300 M Americans.)

So I do not think there is a clear-cut answer to your question above regarding whether we would save money (or pay more) under socialized medicine.

Try reading, if you get a change, a book called "Critical Condition: How Health Care in America Became Big Business--and Bad Medicine" by Donald L. Barlett, James B. Steele (ISBN: 0385504543). It gets into these topics.
 
chandelantern said:
This is an interesting thread...I'm surprised to see all the highly opinionated responces, you'd think we were a bunch of pre-politicians instead of pre-meds. Some of the arguments are logical, but I do not agree with those of you who are dissing other healthcare systems, refusing to consider socialized medicine because your pay as a doctor would be less, or that we wouldn't be able to get quality physicians because everyone who's smart would go to another profession. What about the patients??? I do not know how many of you have ever taken a medical economics class or worked with patients who have no insurance, but it's devestating. I'm not pretending I have the answers to solve all the problems, but the current system we got just ain't cuttin' it and I think as future medical providers we should be open to exploring alternatives.


Everyone on this board can preach about their truly altruistic intentions for becoming a doctor, and while I believe this is the main reason most people want to be doctors (myself included), you can't ignore the importance of money. Doctor sacrifice the prime years of their life so they can help others, and ultimately they are handsomely reimbursed; if doctors were to only make 100,000 a year I would still want to be one, however, there are many people who might not feel the same way
 
MahlerROCKS said:
Everyone on this board can preach about their truly altruistic intentions for becoming a doctor, and while I believe this is the main reason most people want to be doctors (myself included), you can't ignore the importance of money. Doctor sacrifice the prime years of their life so they can help others, and ultimately they are handsomely reimbursed; if doctors were to only make 100,000 a year I would still want to be one, however, there are many people who might not feel the same way

I think that 100,000 is more than enuf to live a comfortable lifestyle. The thing is that if doctors really werent in it for the money, they would do it even if it paid the average national salary, which is around 40-50k. I don't know how many pre-meds would do it if the pay was the same as lets say a policeman. So, even tho money isn't a primary reason, it sure does make the choice an easier one to make.
 
thegenius said:
First, we don't have a pure free-market health care system, we actually have some form of a bastardized socialized health care system. Our government pays approximately 50% of healthcare receipts.

Second, there are numerous economic models on how a single-payer system would work, and where the money would come from. Some models have a gross levy on income taxes, some on businesses, and some have it as a valued-added tax. So it is not entirely clear where the money would come from because there are competing models.

As to whether we would pay more? Perhaps, but it's hard to see that. Right now we spend approximately 2x over other top nations in the world. We could continue to spend that amount, and if we did would probably provide superior care (under a single-payer system) than those other nations once our single-payer system reached maturity. We would probably see some savings though, because there are other studies that estimate that 1 out of every 3 health care dollars go towards funding the massive bureaucracy. It is a fact that if we have a single payer that is responsible for collecting bills, paying receipts, instituting one set of billing codes, one agency for managing disputes, etc, that we would save money. We would also probably save money because our government could negotiate the cheapest drug rates (because they would represents all 300 M Americans.)

So I do not think there is a clear-cut answer to your question above regarding whether we would save money (or pay more) under socialized medicine.

Try reading, if you get a change, a book called "Critical Condition: How Health Care in America Became Big Business--and Bad Medicine" by Donald L. Barlett, James B. Steele (ISBN: 0385504543). It gets into these topics.

I agree...there is way to much overhead. Money is not getting spent correctly. Also we need some form of preventative medicine. The people who do not have insurance end up not going to the doctors office to take care of something that may be easy to cure/treat, and then end up going to the ER when it gets serious and this puts economic strains all over. chandelantern is right, what we got aint cuttin it and we need to do something about it. What to do is the hard part.
 
thegenius said:
First, we don't have a pure free-market health care system, we actually have some form of a bastardized socialized health care system. Our government pays approximately 50% of healthcare receipts.

Second, there are numerous economic models on how a single-payer system would work, and where the money would come from. Some models have a gross levy on income taxes, some on businesses, and some have it as a valued-added tax. So it is not entirely clear where the money would come from because there are competing models.

As to whether we would pay more? Perhaps, but it's hard to see that. Right now we spend approximately 2x over other top nations in the world. We could continue to spend that amount, and if we did would probably provide superior care (under a single-payer system) than those other nations once our single-payer system reached maturity. We would probably see some savings though, because there are other studies that estimate that 1 out of every 3 health care dollars go towards funding the massive bureaucracy. It is a fact that if we have a single payer that is responsible for collecting bills, paying receipts, instituting one set of billing codes, one agency for managing disputes, etc, that we would save money. We would also probably save money because our government could negotiate the cheapest drug rates (because they would represents all 300 M Americans.)

So I do not think there is a clear-cut answer to your question above regarding whether we would save money (or pay more) under socialized medicine.

Try reading, if you get a change, a book called "Critical Condition: How Health Care in America Became Big Business--and Bad Medicine" by Donald L. Barlett, James B. Steele (ISBN: 0385504543). It gets into these topics.

I agree. I also want to mention the fact that, currently, it is illegal for any hospitals to negotiate drug prices. I don't remember the detail, but that's what I learned in healthcare admin class.
 
Suppuration said:
A centralized governmental source... like the NIH?

The consumers pay far more toward healthcare than the NIH. The NIH might back research on a certain device or drug, but that dollar amount is nothing compared to the $ you can get once the device/drug is marketed.
 
chandelantern said:
This is an interesting thread...I'm surprised to see all the highly opinionated responces, you'd think we were a bunch of pre-politicians instead of pre-meds. .


Politicians don't think up policy, the various industries propose them, and back them with lobbyists and PAC money/pork - and the politicians cater to the groups with voter palatable ideas who can give themthe most campaign money. That's the US system. 😀
Health care policy is ideally something that physicians really ought to have a hand in (although to date, health insurers have taken the lead in creating the mess), and so it's not a bad thing for premeds to have an opinion. It's also always fair game at a med school interview.
 
MahlerROCKS said:
Everyone on this board can preach about their truly altruistic intentions for becoming a doctor, and while I believe this is the main reason most people want to be doctors (myself included), you can't ignore the importance of money. Doctor sacrifice the prime years of their life so they can help others, and ultimately they are handsomely reimbursed; if doctors were to only make 100,000 a year I would still want to be one, however, there are many people who might not feel the same way

Here are some Canadian doctors salaries under a single payer system.

http://decc.2.forumer.com/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=547
 
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