Soleimani Death

Started by sevoflurane
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Peterluger said:
Wtf is an “iranian terrorist attack” man? And regarding the nuclear deal, our own CIA was saying that Iran kept it’s side of the deal. Yes, THANKS OBAMA. Yes, the deal had flaws in that it was front-loaded with benefits for Iran, to the extent that the deal would be terrible for the US if they step out of it. It wasn’t a fair deal in that sense for the US. But it was a deal. Now we are in a situation where Iran was emboldened enough to drop fking missiles, and possibly re-start their nuclear weapons work
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Oh, by "our" CIA, you must be referring to the one that conducted an operation to sabotage a rival Republican presidential campaign.

Or do you mean the CIA that lied about WMD in Iraq in 2003?

Or do you mean the CIA that has conflict of interest in the Middle East?

The Iran deal was a garbage deal. I know it. You know it. Everybody knows it.
 
Bad news for Biden, he's in second place now:

[removed by moderator]
 
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Mikkel said:
Bad news for Biden, he's in second place now:

[removed by moderator]
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If this discussion is going to devolve into a forum for MAGA Hat wearing chuds to spout their nonsense then I suggest that the moderators shut this down.

Bad news for Biden.. good news for Putin and bin Salman, am I right Mikkel?

[removed by moderator]
 
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Peterluger said:
Iran itself did it this time. They rained missiles onto a US base. It wasn’t some random militia of gangsters or terrorists. They never would have dared do this under obama
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"dared" is the wrong word. Felt a need to would be a better descriptor.
 
Mikkel said:
The Iran deal was a garbage deal. I know it. You know it. Everybody knows it.
Click to expand...

If we set aside the subjective "quality" of the deal, would you not agree that when the US enters and exits international deals based on feelings of successive presidents, it is generally harmful to our ability to negotiate future agreements? The Iranian regime is straight up evil but they're not wrong when they complain about lack of consistency.

The real answer here is that entering (or withdrawing from) ALL international agreements should be ratified by the Senate, as the Constitution requires. But that's not really done.
 
To echo Arch, this thread will not degenerate into partisan hackery like the last one.

I very, very rarely remove posts. In this case I'm going to edit out the straight up trolling that was posted above.

We're all friends here. Disagreement and some degree of snarkiness is fine. But let's not be disruptive dicks to each other because it's an election year.
 
For me this was a justified extermination of a very bad actor. I equate the killing of Solemani to that of killing an SS officer in the Nazi military. I see such a person as evil regardless of whether he does things which serves the interest of the USA at times.

Evil exists in this world. While we can’t kill all the evil people The death of Solemani was a good thing imho. God Bless America.

I also view the now defunct treaty with Iran with the same lens. Iran is a bad actor with no intent to honor the goal of the treaty to prevent the development of a nuclear bomb. The treaty was merely going to delay Iran not prevent her from gaining a nuclear weapon.
 
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BLADEMDA said:
For me this was a justified extermination of a very bad actor. I equate the killing of Solemani to that of killing an SS officer in the Nazi military. I see such a person as evil regardless of whether he does things which serves the interest of the USA at times.

Evil exists in this world. While we can’t kill all the evil people The death of Solemani was a good thing imho. God Bless America.

I also view the now defunct treaty with Iran with the same lens. Iran is a bad actor with no intent to honor the goal of the treaty to prevent the development of a nuclear bomb. The treaty was merely going to delay Iran not prevent her from gaining a nuclear weapon.
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Nazi officers conducted and were complicit in acts of genocide. If anything, George W. Bush would qualify as such to a much, much greater extent. Last I checked, Iran hasn’t invaded another country in nearly 200 years. Can’t say so about certain other countries
 
Peterluger said:
Nazi officers conducted and were complicit in acts of genocide. If anything, George W. Bush would qualify as such to a much, much greater extent. Last I checked, Iran hasn’t invaded another country in nearly 200 years. Can’t say so about certain other countries
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Obama was responsible for encouraging the rise of ISIS in Iraq and Syria through his policy, and did nothing when Assad used chemical weapons against Syrian civilians resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. Obama also used his administrative bureaucracy to persecute conservatives. Obama also allowed his secret police to spy on his political enemies (Trump campaign) and journalists (Rosen).
 
sevoflurane said:
That being said, now there is a lot of blood on the ground from a Ukrainian airplaine that is down. This is not coincidence IMO.
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The plot thickens. Maybe you're right. 🙁

Iran initially said technical difficulties. Ukraine initially said technical problem.

But Iran won't share the flight recorders with the NTSB or Boeing (not sure I really blame them for not wanting to work with the USA here) ... and they're saying that both are damaged.

The flight profile was apparently normal until 8000 feet then suddenly it was gone. Debris over a large area, witnesses describing fire and breakup in flight. And now Ukraine is talking about the possibility it was a Russian missile. I don't think they were suggesting Russians fired it, but rather a Russian-made missile ... fired by Iranians.

So maybe an overeager Iranian antiaircraft battery got jittery worried about the Great Satan bombing them, saw an airplane, and shot down an airliner? Crazier things have happened. Tragic.
 
pgg said:
The plot thickens. Maybe you're right. 🙁

Iran initially said technical difficulties. Ukraine initially said technical problem.

But Iran won't share the flight recorders with the NTSB or Boeing (not sure I really blame them for not wanting to work with the USA here) ... and they're saying that both are damaged.

The flight profile was apparently normal until 8000 feet then suddenly it was gone. Debris over a large area, witnesses describing fire and breakup in flight. And now Ukraine is talking about the possibility it was a Russian missile. I don't think they were suggesting Russians fired it, but rather a Russian-made missile ... fired by Iranians.

So maybe an overeager Iranian antiaircraft battery got jittery worried about the Great Satan bombing them, saw an airplane, and shot down an airliner? Crazier things have happened. Tragic.
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S-400 missile fired by the Russians in Ukraine downed another jet.

Too many people with no trigger discipline or proper ROE.
 
Peterluger said:
Nazi officers conducted and were complicit in acts of genocide. If anything, George W. Bush would qualify as such to a much, much greater extent. Last I checked, Iran hasn’t invaded another country in nearly 200 years. Can’t say so about certain other countries
Click to expand...

Iran is a terrorist state with plenty of murders on their hands. They are the number one sponsor of terror groups throughout the region. The main guy running all those groups and directly responsible for mass murder is now dead. God bless the USA
 
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BLADEMDA said:
Iran is a terrorist state with plenty of murders on their hands. They are the number one sponsor of terror groups throughout the region. The main guy running all those groups and directly responsible for mass murder is now dead. God bless the USA
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What’s a terrorist state?
 
Peterluger said:
What’s a terrorist state?
Click to expand...

Iran was added to the list on January 19, 1984. According to Country Reports on Terrorism 2013:[5]

“ Overview: Designated as a State Sponsor of Terrorism in 1984, Iran continued its terrorist-related activity, including support for Palestinian terrorist groups in Gaza, and for Hizballah. It has also increased its presence in Africa and attempted to smuggle arms to Houthi separatists in Yemen and Shia oppositionists in Bahrain. Iran used the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps-Qods Force (IRGC-QF) and its regional proxy groups to implement foreign policy goals, provide cover for intelligence operations, and create instability in the Middle East. The IRGC-QF is the regime’s primary mechanism for cultivating and supporting terrorists abroad.
Iran views Syria as a crucial causeway in its weapons supply route to Hizballah, its primary beneficiary. In 2013, Iran continued to provide arms, financing, training, and the facilitation of Iraqi Shia fighters to the Assad regime’s brutal crackdown, a crackdown that has resulted in the death of more than 100,000 civilians in Syria. Iran has publicly admitted sending members of the IRGC to Syria in an advisory role. There are reports indicating some of these troops are IRGC-QF members and that they have taken part in direct combat operations. In February, senior IRGC-QF commander Brigadier General Hassan Shateri was killed in or near Zabadani, Syria. This was the first publicly announced death of a senior Iranian military official in Syria. In November, IRGC-QF commander Mohammad Jamalizadeh Paghaleh was also killed in Aleppo, Syria. Subsequent Iranian media reports stated that Paghaleh was volunteering in Syria to defend the Sayyida Zainab mosque, which is located in Damascus. The location of Paghaleh’s death, over 200 miles away from the mosque he was reported to be protecting, demonstrated Iran’s intent to mask the operations of IRGC-QF forces in Syria.

Iran has historically provided weapons, training, and funding to Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups, including the Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ) and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC), although Hamas’s ties to Tehran have been strained due to the Syrian civil war. Since the end of the 2006 Israeli-Hizballah conflict, Iran has also assisted in rearming Hizballah, in direct violation of UNSCR 1701. Iran has provided hundreds of millions of dollars in support of Hizballah in Lebanon and has trained thousands of its fighters at camps in Iran. These trained fighters often use these skills in support of the Assad regime in Syria.

Despite its pledge to support Iraq’s stabilization, Iran trained, funded, and provided guidance to Iraqi Shia militant groups. The IRGC-QF, in concert with Hizballah, provided training outside of Iraq as well as advisors inside Iraq for Shia militants in the construction and use of sophisticated improvised explosive device technology and other advanced weaponry. Similar to Hizballah fighters, many of these trained Shia militants then use these skills to fight for the Assad regime in Syria, often at the behest of Iran.

On January 23, 2013, Yemeni authorities seized an Iranian dhow, the Jihan, off the coast of Yemen. The dhow was carrying sophisticated Chinese antiaircraft missiles, C-4 explosives, rocket-propelled grenades, and a number of other weapons and explosives. The shipment of lethal aid was likely headed to Houthi separatists in Northern Yemen. Iran actively supports members of the Houthi movement, including activities intended to build military capabilities, which could pose a greater threat to security and stability in Yemen and the surrounding region.

In late April 2013, the Government of Bosnia declared two Iranian diplomats, Jadidi Sohrab and Hamzeh Dolab Ahmad, persona non grata after Israeli intelligence reported they were members of Iran’s Ministry of Intelligence and Security. One of the two men had been spotted in India, Georgia, and Thailand, all of which were sites of a simultaneous bombing campaign in February 2012, according to Israeli intelligence. Both diplomats were subsequently expelled from Bosnia.

On December 29, 2013, the Bahraini Coast Guard interdicted a speedboat filled with weapons and explosives that was likely bound for Shia oppositionists in Bahrain, specifically the 14 February Youth Coalition (14 FYC). Bahraini authorities accused the IRGC-QF of providing opposition militants with explosives training in order to carry out attacks in Bahrain. The interdiction led to the discovery of two weapons and explosives cache sites in Bahrain, the dismantling of a car bomb, and the arrest of 15 Bahraini nationals.
 
Mikkel said:
en.m.wikipedia.org

US-designated state sponsors of terrorism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
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LOL you gave us the US list. How convenient. Thats hilarious. Guess who supported al qaeda and the taliban in the 80s, and also in recent years actively armed/supported extremists turning Libya into a post-apocalyptic anarchic state? If you’re defining “terrorist state” as state sponsors of terror, then pretty much every powerful country on earth qualifies. Including the US, Russia, Iran, and Saudi Arabia
 
Peterluger said:
LOL you gave us the US list. How convenient. Thats hilarious. Guess who supported al qaeda and the taliban in the 80s, and also in recent years actively armed/supported extremists turning Libya into a post-apocalyptic anarchic state? If you’re defining “terrorist state” as state sponsors of terror, then pretty much every powerful country on earth qualifies. Including the US, Russia, Iran, and Saudi Arabia
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I live in the USA, which is why I used that list.

If you want to use the Iranian list which calls the USA a terrorist state, then feel "free".
 
Mikkel said:
S-400 missile fired by the Russians in Ukraine downed another jet.

Too many people with no trigger discipline or proper ROE.
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I initially rejected out of hand foul play, because there's no way either the US or Iran would do this deliberately. But an accidental shoot-down by Iran air defenses ... it's sounding more and more plausible.

I'm surprised Iran has allowed photos of the wreckage out. Lots of pieces seem to be full of holes. Whether that's from an engine blowing up from a technical problem or fragmentation from a missile, I can't tell.


Edit -

And here we go:
www.newsweek.com

Iranians Shot Down Ukraine Flight, Probably by Mistake, Sources Say

Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 is believed to have been struck by a Russia-built Tor-M1 surface-to-air missile system, known to NATO as Gauntlet, two U.S. and one Iraqi official told Newsweek.
www.newsweek.com www.newsweek.com
www.usatoday.com

Iran plane crash: U.S., Canada say intel shows Ukraine jet downed by Iranian missile

U.S. intelligence indicates Iran military accidentally shot down Ukraine airliner with a Russian-supplied anti-aircraft missile. Justin Trudeau agreed
www.usatoday.com

Reportedly a fragment of a SA-15 Gauntlet missile seen in the wreckage. 🙁
 
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pgg said:
I initially rejected out of hand foul play, because there's no way either the US or Iran would do this deliberately. But an accidental shoot-down by Iran air defenses ... it's sounding more and more plausible.

I'm surprised Iran has allowed photos of the wreckage out. Lots of pieces seem to be full of holes. Whether that's from an engine blowing up from a technical problem or fragmentation from a missile, I can't tell.
Click to expand...

Supposedly, the plane was new, manufactured in 2016. They are designed to be able to be flown back with one operational engine. They are designed specifically to not explode in case of something so extreme. Trump didn't even mention the plane in yesterday's speech as well. It seems that the Pentagon at least has collected enough evidence for them to reach the conclusion of an accidental shootdown.
 
electropartyogram said:
Supposedly, the plane was new, manufactured in 2016. They are designed to be able to be flown back with one operational engine. They are designed specifically to not explode in case of something so extreme. Trump didn't even mention the plane in yesterday's speech as well. It seems that the Pentagon at least has collected enough evidence for them to reach the conclusion of an accidental shootdown.
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Why are any of you liberals surprised that a terrorist state like Iran shot down the civilian Boeing jet? A nation dedicated to murder and violating the rule of law wouldn’t hesitate to shoot down anything that could be suspicious. A low level Iranian military officer likely gave the order to shoot down an aircraft mistaken for the enemy.
Only a fool doesn’t understand how dangerous the terrorist state of Iran is to world peace and safety. I am not advocating for killing all Iranian generals but if a few get taken out along the way then that is a plus for the entire world.

God bless the USA.
 
Peterluger said:
LOL. “Dey turrorists bekuz ‘murica said so”. Ok Netanyahu.
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Oh, they are definitely A bad actor. Imho, Iran is the worst actor in the world followed by North Korea then Russia in terms of nations.

Does that mean it’s open season on Iranian Generals? No. But, this dude was especially a bad guy responsible for thousands of deaths. If Obama had taken him out both sides of the aisle would have been fine with it. But, because it was the stupid Orange man who did it the Dems claim it was an illegal act.

If we end up with a rogue nuclear war head detonation in the world my bet is that Iran or North Korea will be the ones behind it.

Terrorist nations that must be dealt with one way or the other.

God bless the USA.
 
BLADEMDA said:
Why are any of you liberals surprised that a terrorist state like Iran shot down the civilian Boeing jet? A nation dedicated to murder and violating the rule of law wouldn’t hesitate to shoot down anything that could be suspicious. A low level Iranian military officer likely gave the order to shoot down an aircraft mistaken for the enemy.
Only a fool doesn’t understand how dangerous the terrorist state of Iran is to world peace and safety. I am not advocating for killing all Iranian generals but if a few get taken out along the way then that is a plus for the entire world.

God bless the USA.
Click to expand...
Again. You’re deflecting. What is a terrorist state? Which countries has Iran invaded in the past 200 years? Who basically caused the death of 1 million people in Iraq? Who actually USED nuclear bombs? If you keep using completely meaningless catch phrases like “terrorist state” and repeating “god bless america”, it doesn’t strengthen your argument one bit.
 
Peterluger said:
Again. You’re deflecting. What is a terrorist state? Which countries has Iran invaded in the past 200 years? Who basically caused the death of 1 million people in Iraq? Who actually USED nuclear bombs? If you keep using completely meaningless catch phrases like “terrorist state” and repeating “god bless america”, it doesn’t strengthen your argument one bit.
Click to expand...

Pointless to debate the obvious. The Nazi govt was evil. That was quite evident prior to the discovery of the concentration camps.

Iran is the worst actor on the stage. The evidence is overwhelming. Simply do some research and the facts will speak for themselves.

In the meantime I’m glad the USA did the right thing in Iraq by taking out Soleimani. We need to send a message to Iran that their illegal actions will not be tolerated.

And we all should be saying the world is a better place because of the USA. As a nation we make mistakes but face those errors with debate and empathy.

Democracies don’t seek to dominate other nations. The intention is to preserve freedom and peace so the citizens can thrive.

As a nation and a people we have enjoyed God’s blessings upon us. Let’s hope that continues as we strive to do what is right in this world.

Peace can only occur through strength. Strength as measured by our economy, military and our values.

God Bless the USA.
 
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Mikkel said:
Iran was added to the list on January 19, 1984. According to Country Reports on Terrorism 2013:[5]

“ Overview: Designated as a State Sponsor of Terrorism in 1984, Iran continued its terrorist-related activity, including support for Palestinian terrorist groups in Gaza, and for Hizballah. It has also increased its presence in Africa and attempted to smuggle arms to Houthi separatists in Yemen and Shia oppositionists in Bahrain. Iran used the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps-Qods Force (IRGC-QF) and its regional proxy groups to implement foreign policy goals, provide cover for intelligence operations, and create instability in the Middle East. The IRGC-QF is the regime’s primary mechanism for cultivating and supporting terrorists abroad.
Iran views Syria as a crucial causeway in its weapons supply route to Hizballah, its primary beneficiary. In 2013, Iran continued to provide arms, financing, training, and the facilitation of Iraqi Shia fighters to the Assad regime’s brutal crackdown, a crackdown that has resulted in the death of more than 100,000 civilians in Syria. Iran has publicly admitted sending members of the IRGC to Syria in an advisory role. There are reports indicating some of these troops are IRGC-QF members and that they have taken part in direct combat operations. In February, senior IRGC-QF commander Brigadier General Hassan Shateri was killed in or near Zabadani, Syria. This was the first publicly announced death of a senior Iranian military official in Syria. In November, IRGC-QF commander Mohammad Jamalizadeh Paghaleh was also killed in Aleppo, Syria. Subsequent Iranian media reports stated that Paghaleh was volunteering in Syria to defend the Sayyida Zainab mosque, which is located in Damascus. The location of Paghaleh’s death, over 200 miles away from the mosque he was reported to be protecting, demonstrated Iran’s intent to mask the operations of IRGC-QF forces in Syria.

Iran has historically provided weapons, training, and funding to Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups, including the Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ) and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC), although Hamas’s ties to Tehran have been strained due to the Syrian civil war. Since the end of the 2006 Israeli-Hizballah conflict, Iran has also assisted in rearming Hizballah, in direct violation of UNSCR 1701. Iran has provided hundreds of millions of dollars in support of Hizballah in Lebanon and has trained thousands of its fighters at camps in Iran. These trained fighters often use these skills in support of the Assad regime in Syria.

Despite its pledge to support Iraq’s stabilization, Iran trained, funded, and provided guidance to Iraqi Shia militant groups. The IRGC-QF, in concert with Hizballah, provided training outside of Iraq as well as advisors inside Iraq for Shia militants in the construction and use of sophisticated improvised explosive device technology and other advanced weaponry. Similar to Hizballah fighters, many of these trained Shia militants then use these skills to fight for the Assad regime in Syria, often at the behest of Iran.

On January 23, 2013, Yemeni authorities seized an Iranian dhow, the Jihan, off the coast of Yemen. The dhow was carrying sophisticated Chinese antiaircraft missiles, C-4 explosives, rocket-propelled grenades, and a number of other weapons and explosives. The shipment of lethal aid was likely headed to Houthi separatists in Northern Yemen. Iran actively supports members of the Houthi movement, including activities intended to build military capabilities, which could pose a greater threat to security and stability in Yemen and the surrounding region.

In late April 2013, the Government of Bosnia declared two Iranian diplomats, Jadidi Sohrab and Hamzeh Dolab Ahmad, persona non grata after Israeli intelligence reported they were members of Iran’s Ministry of Intelligence and Security. One of the two men had been spotted in India, Georgia, and Thailand, all of which were sites of a simultaneous bombing campaign in February 2012, according to Israeli intelligence. Both diplomats were subsequently expelled from Bosnia.

On December 29, 2013, the Bahraini Coast Guard interdicted a speedboat filled with weapons and explosives that was likely bound for Shia oppositionists in Bahrain, specifically the 14 February Youth Coalition (14 FYC). Bahraini authorities accused the IRGC-QF of providing opposition militants with explosives training in order to carry out attacks in Bahrain. The interdiction led to the discovery of two weapons and explosives cache sites in Bahrain, the dismantling of a car bomb, and the arrest of 15 Bahraini nationals.
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This sounds soo much like what the US does :laugh:
 
dhb said:
This sounds soo much like what the US does :laugh:
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Yup, its exactly what the US does. But jingoistic, blind, racist people (many don’t actually realize that their worldview is inherently racist) don’t consider it the same, because they don’t consider people from Muslim countries as full human beings. And it shows in their words and actions. Like for example, when presented the crimes that the US has perpetrated across the world, the best they can come up with is “god bless america”. That in and of itself speaks volumes.
 
BLADEMDA said:
Pointless to debate the obvious. The Nazi govt was evil. That was quite evident prior to the discovery of the concentration camps.

Iran is the worst actor on the stage. The evidence is overwhelming. Simply do some research and the facts will speak for themselves.

In the meantime I’m glad the USA did the right thing in Iraq by taking out Soleimani. We need to send a message to Iran that their illegal actions will not be tolerated.

And we all should be saying the world is a better place because of the USA. As a nation we make mistakes but face those errors with debate and empathy.

Democracies don’t seek to dominate other nations. The intention is to preserve freedom and peace so the citizens can thrive.

God Bless the USA.
Click to expand...
Drinking the kool aid a bit too much. We have and continue to prop up countless brutal dictatorships for the sake of money and oil. But I like cheap gas so whatever.....
 
Peterluger said:
Again. You’re deflecting. What is a terrorist state? Which countries has Iran invaded in the past 200 years?
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You keep coming back to this as if it's somehow relevant.

Iran has openly supported, supplied, funded, and commanded organizations in Syria, Israel, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, Yemen, and a half dozen other countries, that have used violence against civilians for the express purpose of influencing political bodies. It's the definition of terrorism.

Words have meaning. Get a dictionary.


Peterluger said:
But jingoistic, blind, racist people (many don’t actually realize that their worldview is inherently racist)
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This is outrageously rich, coming from the only person in this thread to actually introduce race as a pejorative.
 
Peterluger said:
Yup, its exactly what the US does. But jingoistic, blind, racist people (many don’t actually realize that their worldview is inherently racist) don’t consider it the same, because they don’t consider people from Muslim countries as full human beings. And it shows in their words and actions. Like for example, when presented the crimes that the US has perpetrated across the world, the best they can come up with is “god bless america”. That in and of itself speaks volumes.
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Right because the people from those countries consider the “ infidels living in the Great Satan” as full human beings.....
 
dannyboy1 said:
Right because the people from those countries consider the “ infidels living in the Great Satan” as full human beings.....
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No, they don’t think highly of the “Great Satan”. Directly as a result of US interventionism. So what is your point?
 
BLADEMDA said:
Oh, they are definitely A bad actor. Imho, Iran is the worst actor in the world followed by North Korea then Russia in terms of nations.
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China's got to be in the #1 spot. A million Uyghurs in concentration camps, right now. Odd how neither western media nor the Muslim nations of the middle east seem to be too concerned about that.
 
Lawpy said:
I see this mentioned pretty regularly in The Economist and Wall Street Journal
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Well, I guess somebody cares. It deserves more attention though.

The world seems to care a lot more about the largely self-inflicted and Arab-state-perpetuated plight of the Palestinians than millions of Muslims who are being actively rounded up, imprisoned, and "re-educated" while their culture is systematically erased. It's enough to make one wonder if their sincerity is somewhat lacking.
 
Lawpy said:
Wait why would US depend on other countries oil when we're a net oil exporter?
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In fairness, that's a recent development. From about 1970 through about 2005-2010 we were as dependent upon foreign oil, as Europe is dependent upon Russian gas today.

It's not really accurate to simply say the US fought or supported wars in the middle east over oil. In all these wars ... how many times have we actually conquered a country and taken their oil for ourselves? Zero. Who owns and sells the oil in Iraq? Iraq does. Even most of the foreign-sourced oil contracting work there today is with non-US companies. Countering Soviet influence and power in the middle east was an enormous strategic objective until the USSR collapsed. The "war for oil" chant has always been nonsense.
 
pgg said:
You keep coming back to this as if it's somehow relevant.

Iran has openly supported, supplied, funded, and commanded organizations in Syria, Israel, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, Yemen, and a half dozen other countries, that have used violence against civilians for the express purpose of influencing political bodies. It's the definition of terrorism.

Words have meaning. Get a dictionary.




This is outrageously rich, coming from the only person in this thread to actually introduce race as a pejorative.
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The US has backed brutal dictotorships across Latin America responsible for millions of deaths, financed the Talibans, Isis, intervened in Irak without motive etc etc...
It's easy to scream terrorist anytime some country acts just like you but not in the way you would like it to.
 
pgg said:
In fairness, that's a recent development. From about 1970 through about 2005-2010 we were as dependent upon foreign oil, as Europe is dependent upon Russian gas today.

It's not really accurate to simply say the US fought or supported wars in the middle east over oil. In all these wars ... how many times have we actually conquered a country and taken their oil for ourselves? Zero. Who owns and sells the oil in Iraq? Iraq does. Even most of the foreign-sourced oil contracting work there today is with non-US companies. Countering Soviet influence and power in the middle east was an enormous strategic objective until the USSR collapsed. The "war for oil" chant has always been nonsense.
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I agree here. I mean, it has indirectly always been primarily an issue of resources. We needed to keep our supply of resources away from the Soviets back when we were utterly dependent upon OPEC. We did it in a short-sighted, $#itty and often ineffective way. That has lead to a cascade of issues. It's also wrong to say that the US caused every problem the middle east has. we certainly offered up a large part of it. The British and French definitely set it up for failure, however. But I don't think it's as simple as "we're going in after their oil." It's more geopolitical than that.
 
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pgg said:
China's got to be in the #1 spot. A million Uyghurs in concentration camps, right now. Odd how neither western media nor the Muslim nations of the middle east seem to be too concerned about that.
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I read your post on this subject weeks ago and looked into it. Yes, these camps are bad. I still think China would fall after Russia on my list based on the risk of a nuclear ☢️ mishap by a proxy force.

Iran and North Korea are 1 and 2 based on the risk of nuclear detonation in the next 10 years. Russia is up to no good and Putin is truly a despot. China’s camps are bad but at least they are keeping their nuclear arsenal in check for now
 
For those that may not know I was against the war in Iraq. I am against waging war with Iran. The USA should have learned its lesson in Vietnam.

Nation building takes decades, costs trillions of dollars and doesn’t always work out. In fact, you end up worse than when you started.

What the USA needs is deterrence . A way to send clear messages about red lines to rogue nations. Cross those lines and the USA is going to respond. That response should be coherent and rational. The policy and goals should be clear. For many of us concerning Iran that means illegal acts and acts of aggression won’t be tolerated. In addition, a nuclear weapon is a red line that can not be crossed.

Sending troops into harms way should only be the last option never the first option. Then, the goal should be simple and easy for all to see. For example, Iran can do its own thing within its borders. But, proxy forces will be credited to them. The actions of proxy forces should be viewed as actions by Iran. Most importantly, Iran should not be allowed to obtain a nuclear weapon.

So while I empathize with cruelty going on in this world I do not believe USA intervention is warranted most of the time. We can not and should not be the police force for the entire world.
 
BLADEMDA said:
For those that may not know I was against the war in Iraq. I am against waging war with Iran. The USA should have learned its lesson in Vietnam.

Nation building takes decades, costs trillions of dollars and doesn’t always work out. In fact, you end up worse than when you started.

What the USA needs is deterrence . A way to send clear messages about red lines to rogue nations. Cross those lines and the USA is going to respond. That response should be coherent and rational. The policy and goals should be clear. For many of us concerning Iran that means illegal acts and acts of aggression won’t be tolerated. In addition, a nuclear weapon is a red line that can not be crossed.

Sending troops into harms way should only be the last option never the first option. Then, the goal should be simple and easy for all to see. For example, Iran can do its own thing within its borders. But, proxy forces will be credited to them. The actions of proxy forces should be viewed as actions by Iran. Most importantly, Iran should not be allowed to obtain a nuclear weapon.

So while I empathize with cruelty going on in this world I do not believe USA intervention is warranted most of the time. We can not and should not be the police force for the entire world.
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If that’s the truth, I can handle it. Despite your profile pic.
 
pgg said:
In fairness, that's a recent development. From about 1970 through about 2005-2010 we were as dependent upon foreign oil, as Europe is dependent upon Russian gas today.

It's not really accurate to simply say the US fought or supported wars in the middle east over oil. In all these wars ... how many times have we actually conquered a country and taken their oil for ourselves? Zero. Who owns and sells the oil in Iraq? Iraq does. Even most of the foreign-sourced oil contracting work there today is with non-US companies. Countering Soviet influence and power in the middle east was an enormous strategic objective until the USSR collapsed. The "war for oil" chant has always been nonsense.
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HighPriest said:
I agree here. I mean, it has indirectly always been primarily an issue of resources. We needed to keep our supply of resources away from the Soviets back when we were utterly dependent upon OPEC. We did it in a short-sighted, $#itty and often ineffective way. That has lead to a cascade of issues. It's also wrong to say that the US caused every problem the middle east has. we certainly offered up a large part of it. The British and French definitely set it up for failure, however. But I don't think it's as simple as "we're going in after their oil." It's more geopolitical than that.
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So to clarify, is it about energy security? I understand the geopolitics but there's a difference between energy independence and energy security which is why some of the comments were confusing me
 
dannyboy1 said:
Drinking the kool aid a bit too much. We have and continue to prop up countless brutal dictatorships for the sake of money and oil. But I like cheap gas so whatever.....
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Cheap gas? it used to be less than 1$. Now I pay 3.8 with a refinery next to the gas station.
 
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