Iran Says It Unintentionally Shot Down Ukrainian Airliner
Iran said the Ukrainian airliner that crashed outside of an airport in Tehran, killing all 176 people on board, was shot down unintentionally by its armed forces.
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Did Iran missiles really miss their US targets?
Or did Iran intentionally miss?
If it was an intentional miss and they have some 700 missiles within range of US bases in the middle east then our troops may have a cross hair on their backs continually. None of those 12+ missiles were intercepted and all landed inside the confines of their target walls as I understand it.
Let me preface by saying that Soleimani was an enemy of the US and I'm not shedding any tears for his death. Maybe he even needed to meet his end at some point, but your Monday morning QB'ing of how "great" things turned out for us is pure retrospective bias. There was no guarantee that Iran would stop at their latest PR stunt or that troops wouldn't be killed, and indeed we still don't what may be coming further down the pike. Again, the reporting is that people within the Pentagon who have all the intel and who actually know what they're talking about in regard to proportionate responses thought killing Soleimani was an extreme option, likely wasn't going to be selected, and that it was offered in the hopes that a more moderate response would be chosen by Trump.
In regard to overescalation, I'm sure there were direct, violent responses to the embassy attack that were more measured than killing a guy so popular he might as well have been Persian Tom Hanks, so how about you don't simply handwave away tragedies (even if they are the Iranians' fault at the end of the chain) and just acknowledge that overescalation and increasing of tensions is precisely what led to the sequence of events that caused a stampede and caused 170-some people to die in a plane crash. Hell, I just got back to the states on an international flight that took two more hours than it should've because it had to avoid Iran and most of Iraqi airspace.
More generally though than who had the better week, who here thinks the US overall is safer and/or Middle East tensions are better since the US withdrew from the Iran nuclear agreement that all of Europe still wants? Who here thinks the US and her citizens are safer since killing Soleimani? I know I surely don't.
dr_doze had a good and cogent response to this so I won't repeat a lot of what he wrote.
If you were exceptionally bored and looked through my posting history the last 10 years, I have always held that Iran's leaders are rational, and I have always favored containment and deterrence over invasion or even direct bombing campaigns within their borders.
My unease with withdrawal from the nuclear deal, as I touched on earlier in this thread, has more to do with the way a lot of international agreements aka treaties skip the Senate ratification stage, which leads to president-to-president volatility of those agreements, which weakens the negotiating strength of the United States in the long term. But taken in a vacuum, I think it was a bad deal and would have preferred crushing economic sanctions starting at that time.
Khamenei has repeatedly said that nuclear weapons are an affront to Islam, and that Iran is not seeking to develop and possess them. Of course we know this is a lie.
My only disappointment in the Soleimani attack is that we didn't get the guy in Yemen at the same time.
Bottom line, while I don't really like the phrase "Trump Derangement Syndrome" I can't help but think that the Democrats' and media's reaction to the events of the last few months are influenced by it. Again, whacking Soleimani wasn't a random whimsical event out of nowhere, or some kind of unilateral aggression and escalation. Iran has been progressively escalating their attacks for months. You know the list; I won't repeat it here. Trump has responded with extraordinary restraint.
We were told repeatedly during the 2016 election, by the campaign of the strong, firm, hawkish Clinton, that Trump was a loose cannon that would kick off WWIII. The reality is that one of the few areas of consistency he has displayed in the last 3 years is reluctance to initiate military action. Perhaps even to a fault. The right has been very critical of his restraint. He was excoriated by the right wing press and twittersphere when he called off the retaliation for our drone being shot down in international airspace. And again when he didn't empty the silos after Saudi Arabia was attacked.
What do you want me to say? An operation that I wholeheartedly approve of went well, and the geopolitical result appears to be an overwhelmingly positive one.
I don't know where you get the idea that Soleimani was wildly popular in Iran. He and his Quds did a lot of brutal work keeping Iranians in line over the years, to put it mildly. Part of the tragedy of the dead mourners is that many of them were likely compelled to be there. And with regard to him being the Persian Tom Hanks, it's obvious to any casual observer that his role will be played by Sean Connery in the movie.
I hope we don't subject ourselves to near-miss cognitive bias vis a vis risk decisions just because we seem to have gotten away with it this time.
Iran admits that the airliner was downed by their missile, they thought it was a cruise missile.
I do find it Ironic that Iran (and Russia) first said the incident was ”impossible” and Iran said the missile theory was in fact just a “US/terrorist“ propaganda plot- Good try, but no dice. Now they completely back tracked and are partly blaming the incident on Iranian heightened alert due to the ”terrorists”- in doing so somewhat blaming the USA for their miscalculation. That is 2 Ukrainian airplanes down in recent history I believe.
The one airliner was a Malaysian airliner shot down over Ukraine. It was bad luck for Malaysian Airlines, two planes full of people both negligently lost.
I agree with this assessment. Iran appears to have been quite serious about hitting the US bases, but their mistake was using Iranian-made weapons, which are, in general, copies of Russian or Chinese weaponry (occasionally older US-made stuff as well).Intentionally missing fails Occam's razor. Iran hasn't stated any claim of intentionally missing - though of course we have no reason to believe anything they say about anything. And from what I understand, they used mostly Qiam-1 missiles. Per my definitive source (Wikipedia) they have an accuracy of 500 m. The Al Asad air base is something like 5000 or 10000 acres. Some impacts were in fields and some hit buildings. The nature of random hits on an airfield is that some hit buildings and some don't ... I can't tell the difference between normal distribution of a missile with 500 m accuracy vs a couple of actual precision munitions. Maybe those weren't Qiam-1s.
I don't think they intentionally missed anything. I think they didn't want there to be any loss of life causing further escalation, hence the early notification of the attack.
The short range antiaircraft missile that hit the airliner is a different animal altogether. That clearly worked exactly as designed. Though it's hard to assess how useful it would be vs military aircraft, which unlike a passenger jet, aren't fat and slow with huge radar cross sections and no countermeasures and no maneuverability.

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