Some advice perhaps?

[OneLongDay]

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Hello everyone,

I just logged in to see if there might be someone who may be able to offer me some advice on what I should be doing. I currently have an MCAT of 40S and a cumulative GPA of 2.45. After working for the past two years, I am reaffirming my commitment to follow the medicine career path. I have, however, some stumbling blocks!

First, my GPA - it sucks, no doubt about it. As a Canadian student, there isn't a school at home that will touch me with a ten foot pole unless I redo two years and miss one other waiting for the application cycle. I'm trying to see if I can somehow shorten the process. I've begun looking into Post-Bacc programs in the US. I've so far found one program that seems interesting at the University of Oregon. I could start taking classes in June and hopefully have something to show for it by the time I would send in some apps this fall.

I also have one undergraduate year where I received a 3.8 in my fall term and a 3.3 in my winter term... not sure if any US schools look at only two years.

As for why I am leaning towards doing a post-bacc in the US vs. staying in Canada... well, I think US schools would value a US Post-Bacc more than they would random courses at a Canadian school. Also, I think getting a letter from a premed committee might hold some weight.

I really don't want to go to the caribbean. I would rather not have to deal with the additional stigma faced my IMG/FMGs.

Are there any other post-bacc programs that might accept Canadians? I've checked some out and it seems that any of them that have linkage agreements with med schools are closed to international applicants and/or applicants with higher-than-mine GPAs.

Also, what are the chances of submitting an application with my current MCAT, GPA and grades from this summer (if I do go to Oregon,) in the hopes that the admissions people would hold on until they saw my final grades?

For me, there really is no other option. Ideally, the less time it takes, the better, but in the end, medicine is my goal and as such, anything that will make it happen is a-ok.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!


Cheers...

PS: Any chance there are some nice schools in California that accept Canadian students into Post-Bacc programs? That'd be nice for the missus.

 

[herbb]

It's a bit late to start looking for post bacc programs because I'm sure most application deadlines have past or will very soon. Special Masters Programs seem to work well for folks with low GPA and a good MCAT score like you. I don't know if you are familiar with SMPs but basically they allow you to take medical courses and be graded on the medical student curve. Some of the more popular ones are at U Cinncinati, Georgetown, Drexel, Boston University, EVMS, Loyola. There's more I can't name off the top of my head. Many of these programs also will take a good number of their class each year with a lot more emphases on performance in the program than any other medical school will. So that would definitely work in your favor. Honestly 2.45 is really low, I mean I can imagine even someone with a 3.0 GPA and a 4.0 in a post bacc may just barely get into medical school, but it'd be worth a shot if your interested to talk to the people in charge of the programs I've listed and see what they'd recommend you do.

 

[ksmi117]

I'm moving this thread to the Post-Bacc forum. 🙂

 

[OneLongDay]

What blows my mind is that no matter how hard I try, my cumulative GPA isn't going to jump much... Does studying for 8 hours a day for two months and getting a 40S not indicate that I am not only dedicated, but quite serious about this? I really don't get what more a medical school could want!

Is every matriculant supposed to be a perfect human being; no mistakes ever? I certainly get the feeling that's what it's like in Canada, doctor shortage and all... Oh well, keep on truckin' I guess...

 

[herbb]

Well I feel your pain because your MCAT obviously shows you are an extremely intelligent person. Is there any special reason why your GPA was so low? The only route I'm familiar with for people with low GPAs and who have taken all their pre-reqs (which I'm assuming you have) are those special masters programs I've listed. If you are interested it'd be really easy to send some emails to the directors of those programs and possibly get more professional advice than you'd find here.

 

[OneLongDay]

Special reason? Yeah... it was called Crown Royal Special Reserve ! 😛 Not really... just had way to much fun and never really considered medicine a reasonable option for myself. I've taken a look at the programs you listed but unfortunately, I don't even come close to meeting the minimum GPA for admission! I think I'm going to head out to Oregon and try at least a year and put out as many apps as possible this fall. I've seen some application statistics where there have been some applicants accepted with GPAs hovering around mine and high MCATs. We'll see!

Thanks for the info though, I really appreciate it. If anyone else has any other ideas, please let me know!


Mark

 

[TyrKinase]

First off, I am in awe of that MCAT score. Very nicely done.

I believe you have two choices when it comes to your future: MD or DO. Do you want to eventually practice in Canada? If not, then it would probably be easier to repair your GPA enough to get into a US DO program. If so, are you aware of the rules your province has about practicing rights for DOs from the US? If you're comfortable with pursuing osteopathic medicine, you would probably return to an undergraduate level institution, re-take your medical school pre-reqs and earn As. Based on how AACOMAS does GPA calculations, you would be putting yourself in a better position much faster than with the AMCAS grade calculation system.

If you're sure you don't want to pursue a DO, then the MD track is most likely going to involve a) more undergraduate coursework followed by b) going to a SMP and performing very, very well. Hopefully this can all happen before your MCAT expires, because it'd be a real shame to have to redo that with such a strong score.

Good luck!

 

[pietachok]

1) You are definitely competitive at US D.O. schools in spite of the 2.45 GPA as long as you haven't actually gotten below a C in any of your pre-med pre-reqs. They will ask you WHY you got that GPA and consider the fact that you are older and wiser, and if you already have your pre-med req's done you aren't even necessarily going to have to do a post-bacc/SMP before applying. As somebody already pointed out, if you don't apply within 3 years of taking the MCAT, your score will expire--you may/may not ever do as well again.

2) If you don't want to go to a US D.O. school or try it but want to prepare for the prospect that it doesn't pan out: Get a copy of the MSAR. This has the list of every school that has any sort of post-bacc/SMP program in addition to the "big name" ones. Regardless of what their minimum entry level criteria are, contact each one you want and see if they will admit you. While the "big name" ones are concerned with their admissions stats and probably won't take you since you are a big risk, others will take you so long as you can pay tuition/fees. I went to a "big name" post-bacc and the advising sucked and they messed up my app for two years so it wasn't worth the extra $ and prestige.

3) Even if you can't get into a US D.O. or a post-bacc/SMP program, you can always just apply to a masters program (possibly in Canada) that isn't intended to be an SMP. Depending on what courses your worst grades are in, you might be able to get into one without a problem. MPH or M.S. programs can focus on different topics, and as long as you take a scientifically/mathematically rigorous one, you will be proving the same point as the SMP. Once in a program, you can often take whatever courses you need in addition to the courses required, so you can sneak in any pre-med courses you need to retake.

**Don't forget that as a Canadian citizen, you are considered international with regards to finances at US M.D. schools. While you are often lumped into the same category for admissions as U.S. citizens with a few exceptions (namely at some CA state schools and a few others that won't even consider your app), once you are admitted, many if not most schools make you pay tuition + living expenses into an escrow account for 2-4 years at matriculation and won't consider you for any of their "internal" financial aid (unsure if D.O. schools do this too). For some schools this means that to matriculate, you are going to have to be able to put about $300k into the escrow account...I don't know how Canadian students studying in the US get loans from Canada, but if a reasonable loan of such a huge lump sum is never going to be an option for you, you may want to wholly reconsider the idea of studying in the US.

 

[OneLongDay]

Thanks for the reply!

I think I am going to go the University of Oregon route. As an international student, I am pretty much (financially) screwed anywhere I go, but for now, that's not too big a problem. it's a 15 month program that I think will sort of show that "Hey, I got my @#$% together and now I'm doing this!" hopefully anyways. My wife told me that I have three years to get in and then it's time to start getting real! Great wife! 😀
I also have a ton of volunteer experience and started a non-profit back home as well with my father-in-law that is currently putting together some PSAs about Donor lists and signing your donor card etc... hopefully that counts for something too!

I guess I will find out by the end of next week if I got into the post-bacc... although the only requirement is a Bachelor''s so I'm not too concerned.

Anyways, thanks for all the feedback - keep it coming!

Marko

 

[herbb]

Good luck!

 

[doctorhoskinson]

Congrats on the incredible MCAT score. Your best option may be either attending an SMP or actually getting another bachelor's degree at a different university in something you enjoy while strengthening your clinical side. If you play with the credits and courses correctly, you probably can get a degree in about three semesters. The reason why I would consider this route is that many medical schools average the GPA of different universities when examining a candidate with two bachelors degrees. Getting a 4.0 with roughly 45 credit hours will knock the average to about a 3.2, which is competitive with your MCAT.

The only other options I see are the Carib, DO, or maybe Temple's SMP if you have good SAT scores (I believe has a guaranteed admittance policy for the special people). The problem with a conventional SMP is that it will count as graduate work and not factor into the undergraduate GPA. Some medical schools automatically filter out every candidate with a GPA <2.75 without regard to their other coursework. Best of luck.

 

[LizzyM]

many medical schools average the GPA of different universities when examining a candidate with two bachelors degrees. Getting a 4.0 with roughly 45 credit hours will knock the average to about a 3.2, which is competitive with your MCAT.

Can you tell us which medical schools do so? This seems counterintuitive to the way that gpa is shown on the AMCAS application; 120 credits with an average of 2.45 plus 45 credits of 4.0would only reach 2.87.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

Can you tell us which medical schools do so? This seems counterintuitive to the way that gpa is shown on the AMCAS application; 120 credits with an average of 2.45 plus 45 credits of 4.0would only reach 2.87.

UCDHSC SOM will take the highest GPA of any repeated classes if they are from the same university or will combine the grades if they are new classes from a different university. The reality is that the school will never perform a direct average in the event of low GPA versus high GPA as with this case.

Most decisions are as follows: if the candidate shows significant deviation in academic performance between two schools, then the MS will assume one of three cases. The first case is life events caused a serious detriment to the candidates performance. The second is the high GPA school has an inflated grading system compared to the first. The final case is the candidate matured beyond his/her original academic performance.

Which category you get lumped into is completely up to how you spin the low GPA and where you go for your second degree. The high secondary GPA- alongside good MCATs scores- will also allow this candidate to attend an SMP, which really seems to be the best option to finalize application strength. I'd recommend Johns Hopkins or Boston College because they both have programs that can be extended an additional year giving the candidate at least two application cycles to find a good fit- not to mention getting additional clinical experience.

 

[LizzyM]

UCDHSC SOM will take the highest GPA of any repeated classes if they are from the same university or will combine the grades if they are new classes from a different university. The reality is that the school will never perform a direct average in the event of low GPA versus high GPA as with this case.

Most decisions are as follows: if the candidate shows significant deviation in academic performance between two schools, then the MS will assume one of three cases. The first case is life events caused a serious detriment to the candidates performance. The second is the high GPA school has an inflated grading system compared to the first. The final case is the candidate matured beyond his/her original academic performance.

Which category you get lumped into is completely up to how you spin the low GPA and where you go for your second degree. The high secondary GPA- alongside good MCATs scores- will also allow this candidate to attend an SMP, which really seems to be the best option to finalize application strength. I'd recommend Johns Hopkins or Boston College because they both have programs that can be extended an additional year giving the candidate at least two application cycles to find a good fit- not to mention getting additional clinical experience.

I'm already on the medical school faculty and a long-time admissions committee member so none of the advice really applies to me.

You seem to be back peddaling from the statement that medical schools will average the gpas from 2 bachelors degrees. It seems that they will not.

Several times you've equated SMP with "additional clinical experience" although the SMP does not provide clinical experience. This seems to muddy the water.

SMP do serve as a way for students with a poor academic track record and good MCAT scores to prove their ability to handle medical school classes.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

You seem to be back peddaling from the statement that medical schools will average the gpas from 2 bachelors degrees. It seems that they will not.

Yes, my past statement does seem a little misleading. With the candidate's GPA the best option is boosting it for entry into an SMP for a final augmentation. However, A second bachelors degree alone will make the candidate significantly more competitive for a DO school.

Several times you've equated SMP with "additional clinical experience" although the SMP does not provide clinical experience. This seems to muddy the water.

While it is a general rule that an SMP is primarily a GPA booster, some programs- such as drexel's IMS- can lead to significant and substantial research experience. And frankly being very close to a medical school leads to some clinical opportunities. While one could perhaps find a better use of their time, if you communicate with the SMP program directors about the weaknesses on your application, then they will find a correction.

SMP do serve as a way for students with a poor academic track record and good MCAT scores to prove their ability to handle medical school classes.

The MCAT only proves a person is good at taking a standardized test, which is why there is going to be a radical redesign of the test in the next few years. There is absolutely no correlation between the quality of the physician and his/her MCAT scores after five years of practice. The only useful correlation is the MCAT to USMLE step 1 scores, yet that really only plays a role in hard to match residencies such as orthopedic surgery or dermatology, which is not the concern of the medical school. I agree with you Lizzy about what an SMP proves. I feel all MS should be five year programs with a french style system cutting those who cannot demonstrate success in the environment.

 

[OneLongDay]

Thanks everybody for the interesting dialogue!
Unforunately, due to family circumstance, I am no longer able to move out West for a post-bacc. As such, I have decided to head back and complete an undergraduate engeering degree. I already have two years into so, so hopefully with another two plus a summer, I should finish fine. In the event that I do get into Medical school at that point - great! However, if I don't, at least I will have an Engineering degree from a great school.

Cheers!