Some thoughts from someone who considered DO but ended up in MD

[SxRx]

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First of all I'm not a troll. If you look at my previous postings, you'll know I have no history of trying to start a flaming war. But, as I was confused, not well informed as a pre-med student applying to MD and DO schools I noticed that there are many questions on these forum as to whether to go MD or DO. I see some people who state that they like the DO philosophy better. Some say they like the fact that DOs can perform OMM. Some state that in their experience DOs seemed to have better bedside manners or were more effective physicians. In the end you'll need to choose what will make you happier in life (if MD vs DO will even do that for anyone....who knows). But, I write this posting because I want pre-med students to make choices with more awareness. After that if you choose MD or DO then more power to you and work hard. You'd have made the right choice. But, making choices without a clearer idea on MD vs DO you may not make the right choice for yourself. I will address a few things including OMM, choosing specialties among other things and finally include a file of 2011 Results and Data of main residency match from NMRP so you can look over some hard numbers.

-OMM
I have had a prior healthcare experience that gave me ALOT of training in these manipulative modalities. I learned them while training for this profession in addition to practicing them as a professional for over 10 years. I've heard and seen text books on OMM and courses for OMM taught in DO schools. And, I must say that in order to have any idea of what you are doing let alone be effective in treatment it takes years and years of practice and classes after classes even after graduation. The little training DO students get while in school is no way sufficient to even come close to know what you are doing. So, to say that you'll have more treatment options since you've had OMM training is absurd. This is likely reflected in some of surveys that reveal majority of DOs don't use OMM. OMM type of manipulation is such an "art" form of treatment that you need a lot of practice and exposure in order to get the "feel" for it. So, even if you get comfortable with it if you don't use it you'll lose that touch. In addition, these manipulative modalities aren't as scientifically proven to be effective as say pharmacotherapy has been. Sure, there are journals that tout effectiveness of certain manipulations which shows that it's as effective as say analgesics. But, these articles are not in very respected journals and tend to have more biases in their study design than ones in more highly regarded journals. In conclusion OMM training does next to nothing for you as a DO physician unless you decide to do an OMM fellowship. Even then, such manipulative techniques aren't accepted as widely as other therapeutic modalities. (I'm not saying they are not effective) It's perhaps because in order to be that good you need a LOT of practice and exposure which very few have. Finally, learning something I'll not use (statistically) will not sit well with me in school. I have pharm, path to study for....and I have to spend 4 hours a week on OMM? That'd have driven me crazy.

-Specialty choices
This is where you'll want to look up some pages in the NMRP form I've included in this thread. What I want to say is that unless you want to match in DO residency programs or are going for IM, FM, psych among other relatively less competitive specialty it will be much more difficult to match into a specialty of your choice. In this respect I'm so glad that I did not choose to go to a DO school since with a DO degree an allopathic residency in my specialty of choice is extremely difficult to obtain. How do I know? When I look at lists of current residents in the places I interview less than 5% are DOs. I understand that there are lower number of DO graduates. But, if you look at the numbers you may get a better idea. Take a look at neurology in 2011. Of the DO applicants 29 were successfully matched at an MD program. I am sure that much much more than 29 DO applicants applied for MD programs. Perhaps many of them also applied to DO neurology programs and matched there, hence were out of consideration for an MD match since DO match occurs earlier in the year than MD match and by policy if a DO applicant matches into a DO program they automatically become ineligible for MD match. This aspect adds another stress. If you somehow feel that you'd rather do an MD residency you need to decide if you even want to risk matching into a DO program by applying to them. If you don't, then you need to only apply to MD programs in which case you will not have a good chance of matching. This is just a stressor I do not need. Above example was a relatively easy specialty to get into: neurology. If you consider specialties like radiology or surgery an MD applicant may have percentile in the 90's of matching while a DO applicant will have significantly lower chance of matching. So, you'll need to apply to both DO and MD programs and hope that you'll match into either one. Personally I don't know how competitive it is to get in to a DO surgery or rad program.
If you look at 2011's unmatched rate for MD students it was 6% while it was 20% for DO applicants. This figure is likely skewed by higher match likelihood in specialties like IM, FM etc...so in order for you to match into more competitive specialties as a DO applicant unmatched rate is likely much higher than 20%. If I were a DO applicant I would not be comfortable with that figure.
So, the bottom line here is that if you know what specialty you want to get into and it is more competitive than IM, FM etc, you need to find out the unmatched rate for DO applicants in DO programs so that you sort of know your likelihood of matching into a DO program since matching into an MD program will be very very difficult.

-Reputation/pedigree
This matters greatly although is not an absolute. There are DOs in competitive specialties and some are even in leadership roles in respected hospitals/programs. But, my point here is that it's just more difficult to attain that as a DO if that sort of career advancement is important to you (for me it wasn't). People from low tier MD programs have a much harder time matching into top programs in a specialty. It's not unheard of but much harder. For a DO applicant to match into top programs in most specialty is even tougher for this reason. If you have a list of 2-3 specialties you are considering, find out which programs are top 20 in the nation (or even top half in the nation), go to their websites, look at where these residents went to med school. Unless the specialty is a less competitive one you'll not find DO after their names. But then again, who says you need to go to top programs to be happy? But, what I do not like is being more limited in my choices and having a harder time matching in to what I want just because an applicant went to a DO school. Unfair? Perhaps. But, that's just how it is.

-Holistic/happier
Observations that DO's are more holistic or happier than MD's have to be somewhat anecdotal. People are people and I feel that this aspect has more to do with the individual.

-Many DO applicants (not all) feel they need to take USMLE step 1. Do you really want this added pressure?

-Conclusion
I have really struggled with going DO and staying within 5 miles from my friends/family vs an MD school located across the country. I'm extremely relieve that I choose MD. Sure I was away from my friends and family. But, after all the hard work in pre-med and in med school I don't think I'd be happy knowing I will have a huge uphill battle if I want to get into an MD residency program in even moderately competitive specialty. This will put a tremendous pressure on me or cause some to just go for less competitive specialty. I wanted to maximize choices/options not less. Whether I ended up choosing FM or say radiology or derm I wanted more options and choices rather than the type of degree decreasing my options in comparison to MD applicants. Please understand that I'm not saying DO applicants do not have choices/options; I'm simply saying that they have less options than MD counterpart. Again, after all is said and done, you need to do what is right for you and what you think is going to make you happier. If that's a DO degree despite what I've stated, then that is the right choice for you.

Again, I really wanted to voice an opinion and tell you some things I struggled with and what I think of them after having been exposed to med school and the residency matching process in hopes of letting pre-meds on this site hear various points of view in order to make the most appropriate choice for him/herself.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I am sure you were hoping for a "great and informative post" but I am not going to do that, someone else will. This is one giant "don't go DO post." You say go DO if you want primary care. Nothing in your post talks about personal preference regarding location, friends, family, whatever. You say you struggled and choice a MD school across country. Good for you. And because you looked at OMM texts does not mean you know OMM or anything about it.

You clearly wanted MD and got into a DO school. Cool. There are thousands like you. But don't come on the pre osteo forum thinking we should thank you for your information. Nothing you said is profound. Apparently you saw a bunch of threads from a ms1 or ms4 of EM doc and thought you could help. This thread is worthless.

I am sorry, but I am sick of people coming on here and bad talking DO. If you don't want to go DO, don't. It is as simple as that. But don't come on here preaching your flavor of garbage because nobody cares. And if you say this isn't a MD vs. DO thread than you clearly can't read because that is exactly what this is.

Tl;dr: cool story bro.

 

[SLC]

SxRx says it, therefore it must be true!

This residency argument is tired and flawed. DO students represent somewhere in the neighborhood of 20% of total medical students nation wide, and many elect to use the AOA match (many of them even by their own choice) still others match MD just fine and even into competitive programs. It's a self selection thing, and I'd bet you'll find that the percentages that match (when compared to the percentages that apply) are generally much closer than you're willing to imagine between MD and DO when it comes to ACGME spots. You say only 5% of interviewees at your interviews were DO's. Well tell us, what percentage of applicants were DO's in the first place? Because if you think it's much more than 5-10% you're kidding yourself.

Look, we all know that MD is the more popular option. But I fail to see the point in starting a thread which advertises itself as something resembling "objective" and designed to "help people make the right choice" which then goes on to dump on one path and build up the other.

DO or MD, if you're being honest you have to admit that a highly qualified student can do anything they want. I know DO's who trained at some of the most "prestigious" residency programs in their respective fields, and I know others who trained at small time Osteopathic Hospitals. We call them all doctors, and all are equally successful and equally compensated so I'm not sure what the point of basing your entire existence on getting that top 5 residency is.

It's like I always say, and all my mentors have said. Study hard, earn the grades, excel on the boards, and work hard on your rotations and you'll have all the opportunity you need to do what you want to with this career. That applies to MD and DO alike.

Lastly, Prestige? Really? You have some real issues if you base your interest in Medicine on prestige. I didn't get into medicine so people would respect me or think I was something I'm not. I got into medicine because I find pathology incredibly interesting, and I love the idea of being able to change lives the way good health can. If nobody ever knows about "Dr. SLC" and the amazing prestige he holds I'll be better off for it.

Your ideas are sort of sickening actually. Sadly they don't seem that out of the ordinary for the "MD team" here at SDN.

Thanks for the post though!

 

[n3xa]

First of all I'm not a troll. If you look at my previous postings, you'll know I have no history of trying to start a flaming war. But, as I was confused, not well informed as a pre-med student applying to MD and DO schools I noticed that there are many questions on these forum as to whether to go MD or DO. I see some people who state that they like the DO philosophy better. Some say they like the fact that DOs can perform OMM. Some state that in their experience DOs seemed to have better bedside manners or were more effective physicians. In the end you'll need to choose what will make you happier in life (if MD vs DO will even do that for anyone....who knows). But, I write this posting because I want pre-med students to make choices with more awareness. After that if you choose MD or DO then more power to you and work hard. You'd have made the right choice. But, making choices without a clearer idea on MD vs DO you may not make the right choice for yourself. I will address a few things including OMM, choosing specialties among other things and finally include a file of 2011 Results and Data of main residency match from NMRP so you can look over some hard numbers.

-OMM
I have had a prior healthcare experience that gave me ALOT of training in these manipulative modalities. I learned them while training for this profession in addition to practicing them as a professional for over 10 years. I've heard and seen text books on OMM and courses for OMM taught in DO schools. And, I must say that in order to have any idea of what you are doing let alone be effective in treatment it takes years and years of practice and classes after classes even after graduation. The little training DO students get while in school is no way sufficient to even come close to know what you are doing. So, to say that you'll have more treatment options since you've had OMM training is absurd. This is likely reflected in some of surveys that reveal majority of DOs don't use OMM. OMM type of manipulation is such an "art" form of treatment that you need a lot of practice and exposure in order to get the "feel" for it. So, even if you get comfortable with it if you don't use it you'll lose that touch. In addition, these manipulative modalities aren't as scientifically proven to be effective as say pharmacotherapy has been. Sure, there are journals that tout effectiveness of certain manipulations which shows that it's as effective as say analgesics. But, these articles are not in very respected journals and tend to have more biases in their study design than ones in more highly regarded journals. In conclusion OMM training does next to nothing for you as a DO physician unless you decide to do an OMM fellowship. Even then, such manipulative techniques aren't accepted as widely as other therapeutic modalities. (I'm not saying they are not effective) It's perhaps because in order to be that good you need a LOT of practice and exposure which very few have. Finally, learning something I'll not use (statistically) will not sit well with me in school. I have pharm, path to study for....and I have to spend 4 hours a week on OMM? That'd have driven me crazy.

-Specialty choices
This is where you'll want to look up some pages in the NMRP form I've included in this thread. What I want to say is that unless you want to match in DO residency programs or are going for IM, FM, psych among other relatively less competitive specialty it will be much more difficult to match into a specialty of your choice. In this respect I'm so glad that I did not choose to go to a DO school since with a DO degree an allopathic residency in my specialty of choice is extremely difficult to obtain. How do I know? When I look at lists of current residents in the places I interview less than 5% are DOs. I understand that there are lower number of DO graduates. But, if you look at the numbers you may get a better idea. Take a look at neurology in 2011. Of the DO applicants 29 were successfully matched at an MD program. I am sure that much much more than 29 DO applicants applied for MD programs. Perhaps many of them also applied to DO neurology programs and matched there, hence were out of consideration for an MD match since DO match occurs earlier in the year than MD match and by policy if a DO applicant matches into a DO program they automatically become ineligible for MD match. This aspect adds another stress. If you somehow feel that you'd rather do an MD residency you need to decide if you even want to risk matching into a DO program by applying to them. If you don't, then you need to only apply to MD programs in which case you will not have a good chance of matching. This is just a stressor I do not need. Above example was a relatively easy specialty to get into: neurology. If you consider specialties like radiology or surgery an MD applicant may have percentile in the 90's of matching while a DO applicant will have significantly lower chance of matching. So, you'll need to apply to both DO and MD programs and hope that you'll match into either one. Personally I don't know how competitive it is to get in to a DO surgery or rad program.
If you look at 2011's unmatched rate for MD students it was 6% while it was 20% for DO applicants. This figure is likely skewed by higher match likelihood in specialties like IM, FM etc...so in order for you to match into more competitive specialties as a DO applicant unmatched rate is likely much higher than 20%. If I were a DO applicant I would not be comfortable with that figure.
So, the bottom line here is that if you know what specialty you want to get into and it is more competitive than IM, FM etc, you need to find out the unmatched rate for DO applicants in DO programs so that you sort of know your likelihood of matching into a DO program since matching into an MD program will be very very difficult.

-Reputation/pedigree
This matters greatly although is not an absolute. There are DOs in competitive specialties and some are even in leadership roles in respected hospitals/programs. But, my point here is that it's just more difficult to attain that as a DO if that sort of career advancement is important to you (for me it wasn't). People from low tier MD programs have a much harder time matching into top programs in a specialty. It's not unheard of but much harder. For a DO applicant to match into top programs in most specialty is even tougher for this reason. If you have a list of 2-3 specialties you are considering, find out which programs are top 20 in the nation (or even top half in the nation), go to their websites, look at where these residents went to med school. Unless the specialty is a less competitive one you'll not find DO after their names. But then again, who says you need to go to top programs to be happy? But, what I do not like is being more limited in my choices and having a harder time matching in to what I want just because an applicant went to a DO school. Unfair? Perhaps. But, that's just how it is.

-Holistic/happier
Observations that DO's are more holistic or happier than MD's have to be somewhat anecdotal. People are people and I feel that this aspect has more to do with the individual.

-Many DO applicants (not all) feel they need to take USMLE step 1. Do you really want this added pressure?

-Conclusion
I have really struggled with going DO and staying within 5 miles from my friends/family vs an MD school located across the country. I'm extremely relieve that I choose MD. Sure I was away from my friends and family. But, after all the hard work in pre-med and in med school I don't think I'd be happy knowing I will have a huge uphill battle if I want to get into an MD residency program in even moderately competitive specialty. This will put a tremendous pressure on me or cause some to just go for less competitive specialty. I wanted to maximize choices/options not less. Whether I ended up choosing FM or say radiology or derm I wanted more options and choices rather than the type of degree decreasing my options in comparison to MD applicants. Please understand that I'm not saying DO applicants do not have choices/options; I'm simply saying that they have less options than MD counterpart. Again, after all is said and done, you need to do what is right for you and what you think is going to make you happier. If that's a DO degree despite what I've stated, then that is the right choice for you.

Again, I really wanted to voice an opinion and tell you some things I struggled with and what I think of them after having been exposed to med school and the residency matching process in hopes of letting pre-meds on this site hear various points of view in order to make the most appropriate choice for him/herself.

Thanks, Arthur.

 

[SLC]

Good thinking, with the post quote. We need to save the original document for posterity, cause I can see this one getting heavily edited when the OP takes a second read.

 

[TriagePreMed]

I don't know if I believe your interpretation of Neurology. If you put US-Seniors vs Osteo+IMG, the numbers are 159 vs 99. Unless you're also arguing that IMG (70) is better than Osteo(29) to match Neuology, your interpretation is wrong. If we go US-Senior vs Osteo, you'll see about 15% of the total match into Neurology is by DO grads. Given that DO's are 20% of med students and Neuorology is not one of the most desired residencies, I think the numbers are good.

Everything in this thread has been discussed ad nauseum. Time and time again the conclusion is that if you can go MD, you will benefit more than DO. However, DO is a better alternative for some people. Every person I have seen that prefers DO vs MD has some good reasons behind it.

 

[DrWily]

blah blah you are not new, you are not original, nothing you said here is insightful or things we didn't already know.. blah blah blah.


Sounds like a troll to me!

 

[Ebola4Breakfast]

Tl; dr lol

 

[mashmetoo]

I am sure you were hoping for a "great and informative post" but I am not going to do that, someone else will. This is one giant "don't go DO post." You say go DO if you want primary care. Nothing in your post talks about personal preference regarding location, friends, family, whatever. You say you struggled and choice a MD school across country. Good for you. And because you looked at OMM texts does not mean you know OMM or anything about it.

You clearly wanted MD and got into a DO school. Cool. There are thousands like you. But don't come on the pre osteo forum thinking we should thank you for your information. Nothing you said is profound. Apparently you saw a bunch of threads from a ms1 or ms4 of EM doc and thought you could help. This thread is worthless.

I am sorry, but I am sick of people coming on here and bad talking DO. If you don't want to go DO, don't. It is as simple as that. But don't come on here preaching your flavor of garbage because nobody cares. And if you say this isn't a MD vs. DO thread than you clearly can't read because that is exactly what this is.

Tl;dr: cool story bro.

+1 for these poetic words...

 

[Iliketoytles]

Thanks for the great and informative post OP.




--EDIT

But seriously though, I'm pretty sure we're all used to this kind of thing. There was certain "And I Was Like" character around here a while back... we took care of him (or her... apparently she was pregnant?) quickly. Let's move along.

 

[DocEspana]

I actually rather liked it. But I'm a sucker for stats, cold hard admissions, and somewhat controversial opinions being stated clearly and with tact (agree with it or not). But it misses a key point. 50% of students are going to match into primary care. Thats true of MD schools (46% last time i checked) and DO schools (52%). So those less competitive specialities mentioned are where 1 out of every 2 people are going anyway. Regardless of degree.

And lets call a spade a spade. DO schools create equally good students at the top of the class when compared to any MD school... but we create worse students at the bottom of the class. Its just an easy observation to make. Our qualified students match wherever they would have matched regardless of degree and our less qualified students match where they can.

with 50% of students matching pimary care regardless of anything going on.... the DO match provides a nice little advantage to a person like me: I have a strong score, but not an elite score. I'd be somewhere just below the mean for urology/ent/etc. But I am near the top of the heap for the DO residencies in the same fields (my comlex score was roughly equivalent to my USMLE). It takes a lot of stress off the shoulders of students who are excelling that they have multiple outlets to match through. Plus these are the same students who do end up being the DO IM resident at hopkins or the DO gas resident at mayo clinic or the urology resident at Emory or the trauma fellow at Maryland Shock Trauma. So they have choices. Would they be even more well off if they went to Columbia? Sure. But the same can be said for person from <random MD school #72> who would be better off at Columbia. Thats a "name value of the school" argument, not a degree argument, at that level of success.

TL;DR: DO for excellent students (and despite what we think, only 15% or so of us are this) is a great way to get hard to reach residents
DO for most students, no different since they'd be matching FM/IM/Peds/ER/Psych/Neuro anyway. If you're closer to the top of the "middle 50%" then you prob go to ACGME programs. Near the bottom of this band you prob go AOA. Either way the final result is you get into the type of program you would have if you were an MD graduate anyway.
DO for the bottoms of the class, if you're here its bleak. Thats just being honest. Work harder.

 

[pcook1]

Congrats on picking the path that works for you

 

[Mbeas]

First of all I'm not a troll.

lulz...that's any troll's motto.

Plus, you literally mentioned nothing that any of us informed DO applicants don't already know.

Thanks for playing...

 

[CopToEM]

I actually don't understand why this topic constantly arises. Some contractors prefer metal roofs... some contractors prefer shingle roofs. Both achieve the same goal, albeit in different ways, but the end result is the same. Why aren't DO and MD viewed the same way? In the end, the patient gets the treatment they deserve and, typically, it's using exactly the same process.

Even stating the term "DO vs MD" dilutes the entire field of medicine in my opinion. It's difficult for me to understand how grown, intelligent men and women can be so ignorant.

 

[Mbeas]

Even stating the term "DO vs MD" dilutes the entire field of medicine in my opinion. It's difficult for me to understand how grown, intelligent men and women can be so ignorant.

Totally agree. I do think this mentality is greatest amongst pre-meds though. I've never heard this segregation between MD/DO in a hospital setting.

 

[doingit9]

I actually rather liked it. But I'm a sucker for stats, cold hard admissions, and somewhat controversial opinions being stated clearly and with tact (agree with it or not). But it misses a key point. 50% of students are going to match into primary care. Thats true of MD schools (46% last time i checked) and DO schools (52%). So those less competitive specialities mentioned are where 1 out of every 2 people are going anyway. Regardless of degree.

And lets call a spade a spade. DO schools create equally good students at the top of the class when compared to any MD school... but we create worse students at the bottom of the class. Its just an easy observation to make. Our qualified students match wherever they would have matched regardless of degree and our less qualified students match where they can.

with 50% of students matching pimary care regardless of anything going on.... the DO match provides a nice little advantage to a person like me: I have a strong score, but not an elite score. I'd be somewhere just below the mean for urology/ent/etc. But I am near the top of the heap for the DO residencies in the same fields (my comlex score was roughly equivalent to my USMLE). It takes a lot of stress off the shoulders of students who are excelling that they have multiple outlets to match through. Plus these are the same students who do end up being the DO IM resident at hopkins or the DO gas resident at mayo clinic or the urology resident at Emory or the trauma fellow at Maryland Shock Trauma. So they have choices. Would they be even more well off if they went to Columbia? Sure. But the same can be said for person from <random MD school #72> who would be better off at Columbia. Thats a "name value of the school" argument, not a degree argument, at that level of success.

TL;DR: DO for excellent students (and despite what we think, only 15% or so of us are this) is a great way to get hard to reach residents
DO for most students, no different since they'd be matching FM/IM/Peds/ER/Psych/Neuro anyway. If you're closer to the top of the "middle 50%" then you prob go to ACGME programs. Near the bottom of this band you prob go AOA. Either way the final result is you get into the type of program you would have if you were an MD graduate anyway.
DO for the bottoms of the class, if you're here its bleak. Thats just being honest. Work harder.

Honestly, I think I always enjoy reading a post from this guy. 👍

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I actually rather liked it. But I'm a sucker for stats, cold hard admissions, and somewhat controversial opinions being stated clearly and with tact (agree with it or not). But it misses a key point. 50% of students are going to match into primary care. Thats true of MD schools (46% last time i checked) and DO schools (52%). So those less competitive specialities mentioned are where 1 out of every 2 people are going anyway. Regardless of degree.

And lets call a spade a spade. DO schools create equally good students at the top of the class when compared to any MD school... but we create worse students at the bottom of the class. Its just an easy observation to make. Our qualified students match wherever they would have matched regardless of degree and our less qualified students match where they can.

with 50% of students matching pimary care regardless of anything going on.... the DO match provides a nice little advantage to a person like me: I have a strong score, but not an elite score. I'd be somewhere just below the mean for urology/ent/etc. But I am near the top of the heap for the DO residencies in the same fields (my comlex score was roughly equivalent to my USMLE). It takes a lot of stress off the shoulders of students who are excelling that they have multiple outlets to match through. Plus these are the same students who do end up being the DO IM resident at hopkins or the DO gas resident at mayo clinic or the urology resident at Emory or the trauma fellow at Maryland Shock Trauma. So they have choices. Would they be even more well off if they went to Columbia? Sure. But the same can be said for person from <random MD school #72> who would be better off at Columbia. Thats a "name value of the school" argument, not a degree argument, at that level of success.

TL;DR: DO for excellent students (and despite what we think, only 15% or so of us are this) is a great way to get hard to reach residents
DO for most students, no different since they'd be matching FM/IM/Peds/ER/Psych/Neuro anyway. If you're closer to the top of the "middle 50%" then you prob go to ACGME programs. Near the bottom of this band you prob go AOA. Either way the final result is you get into the type of program you would have if you were an MD graduate anyway.
DO for the bottoms of the class, if you're here its bleak. Thats just being honest. Work harder.

Interesting... so is this a small pond effect? You're a an average applicant for MD, but a top 10 percentile applicant and thus statistically likely a higher end scoring DO student? Which translates to you being able to match into specialties which you may not have been competitive as an MD? Interesting.... very interesting analysis....

 

[DocEspana]

Interesting... so is this a small pond effect? You're a an average applicant for MD, but a top 10 percentile applicant and thus statistically likely a higher end scoring DO student? Which translates to you being able to match into specialties which you may not have been competitive as an MD? Interesting.... very interesting analysis....

I like to think I have intangibles

 

[DrMediterranean]

I actually rather liked it. But I'm a sucker for stats, cold hard admissions, and somewhat controversial opinions being stated clearly and with tact (agree with it or not). But it misses a key point. 50% of students are going to match into primary care. Thats true of MD schools (46% last time i checked) and DO schools (52%). So those less competitive specialities mentioned are where 1 out of every 2 people are going anyway. Regardless of degree.

And lets call a spade a spade. DO schools create equally good students at the top of the class when compared to any MD school... but we create worse students at the bottom of the class. Its just an easy observation to make. Our qualified students match wherever they would have matched regardless of degree and our less qualified students match where they can.

with 50% of students matching pimary care regardless of anything going on.... the DO match provides a nice little advantage to a person like me: I have a strong score, but not an elite score. I'd be somewhere just below the mean for urology/ent/etc. But I am near the top of the heap for the DO residencies in the same fields (my comlex score was roughly equivalent to my USMLE). It takes a lot of stress off the shoulders of students who are excelling that they have multiple outlets to match through. Plus these are the same students who do end up being the DO IM resident at hopkins or the DO gas resident at mayo clinic or the urology resident at Emory or the trauma fellow at Maryland Shock Trauma. So they have choices. Would they be even more well off if they went to Columbia? Sure. But the same can be said for person from <random MD school #72> who would be better off at Columbia. Thats a "name value of the school" argument, not a degree argument, at that level of success.

TL;DR: DO for excellent students (and despite what we think, only 15% or so of us are this) is a great way to get hard to reach residents
DO for most students, no different since they'd be matching FM/IM/Peds/ER/Psych/Neuro anyway. If you're closer to the top of the "middle 50%" then you prob go to ACGME programs. Near the bottom of this band you prob go AOA. Either way the final result is you get into the type of program you would have if you were an MD graduate anyway.
DO for the bottoms of the class, if you're here its bleak. Thats just being honest. Work harder.

^^coming from a realist 👍

 

[DocEspana]

^^coming from a realist 👍

If I was a sears spokesman, I'd be this guy.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdAm0hcpxX0[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I like to think I have intangibles

So.. what are you gunning for again? lol

 

[DocEspana]

So.. what are you gunning for again? lol

Going balls to the wall with urology. Pun intended. With ER being the fallback. Seems very different, but its two things that I've really loved. (internal medicine is too much distressing over minutiae and everyday health management for me. One of those things i'd have never expected before actually doing it)

 

[scotchtapetest]

First of all I'm not a troll. If you look at my previous postings, you'll know I have no history of trying to start a flaming war. But, as I was confused, not well informed as a pre-med student applying to MD and DO schools I noticed that there are many questions on these forum as to whether to go MD or DO. I see some people who state that they like the DO philosophy better. Some say they like the fact that DOs can perform OMM. Some state that in their experience DOs seemed to have better bedside manners or were more effective physicians. In the end you'll need to choose what will make you happier in life (if MD vs DO will even do that for anyone....who knows). But, I write this posting because I want pre-med students to make choices with more awareness. After that if you choose MD or DO then more power to you and work hard. You'd have made the right choice. But, making choices without a clearer idea on MD vs DO you may not make the right choice for yourself. I will address a few things including OMM, choosing specialties among other things and finally include a file of 2011 Results and Data of main residency match from NMRP so you can look over some hard numbers.

-OMM
I have had a prior healthcare experience that gave me ALOT of training in these manipulative modalities. I learned them while training for this profession in addition to practicing them as a professional for over 10 years. I've heard and seen text books on OMM and courses for OMM taught in DO schools. And, I must say that in order to have any idea of what you are doing let alone be effective in treatment it takes years and years of practice and classes after classes even after graduation. The little training DO students get while in school is no way sufficient to even come close to know what you are doing. So, to say that you'll have more treatment options since you've had OMM training is absurd. This is likely reflected in some of surveys that reveal majority of DOs don't use OMM. OMM type of manipulation is such an "art" form of treatment that you need a lot of practice and exposure in order to get the "feel" for it. So, even if you get comfortable with it if you don't use it you'll lose that touch. In addition, these manipulative modalities aren't as scientifically proven to be effective as say pharmacotherapy has been. Sure, there are journals that tout effectiveness of certain manipulations which shows that it's as effective as say analgesics. But, these articles are not in very respected journals and tend to have more biases in their study design than ones in more highly regarded journals. In conclusion OMM training does next to nothing for you as a DO physician unless you decide to do an OMM fellowship. Even then, such manipulative techniques aren't accepted as widely as other therapeutic modalities. (I'm not saying they are not effective) It's perhaps because in order to be that good you need a LOT of practice and exposure which very few have. Finally, learning something I'll not use (statistically) will not sit well with me in school. I have pharm, path to study for....and I have to spend 4 hours a week on OMM? That'd have driven me crazy.

-Specialty choices
This is where you'll want to look up some pages in the NMRP form I've included in this thread. What I want to say is that unless you want to match in DO residency programs or are going for IM, FM, psych among other relatively less competitive specialty it will be much more difficult to match into a specialty of your choice. In this respect I'm so glad that I did not choose to go to a DO school since with a DO degree an allopathic residency in my specialty of choice is extremely difficult to obtain. How do I know? When I look at lists of current residents in the places I interview less than 5% are DOs. I understand that there are lower number of DO graduates. But, if you look at the numbers you may get a better idea. Take a look at neurology in 2011. Of the DO applicants 29 were successfully matched at an MD program. I am sure that much much more than 29 DO applicants applied for MD programs. Perhaps many of them also applied to DO neurology programs and matched there, hence were out of consideration for an MD match since DO match occurs earlier in the year than MD match and by policy if a DO applicant matches into a DO program they automatically become ineligible for MD match. This aspect adds another stress. If you somehow feel that you'd rather do an MD residency you need to decide if you even want to risk matching into a DO program by applying to them. If you don't, then you need to only apply to MD programs in which case you will not have a good chance of matching. This is just a stressor I do not need. Above example was a relatively easy specialty to get into: neurology. If you consider specialties like radiology or surgery an MD applicant may have percentile in the 90's of matching while a DO applicant will have significantly lower chance of matching. So, you'll need to apply to both DO and MD programs and hope that you'll match into either one. Personally I don't know how competitive it is to get in to a DO surgery or rad program.
If you look at 2011's unmatched rate for MD students it was 6% while it was 20% for DO applicants. This figure is likely skewed by higher match likelihood in specialties like IM, FM etc...so in order for you to match into more competitive specialties as a DO applicant unmatched rate is likely much higher than 20%. If I were a DO applicant I would not be comfortable with that figure.
So, the bottom line here is that if you know what specialty you want to get into and it is more competitive than IM, FM etc, you need to find out the unmatched rate for DO applicants in DO programs so that you sort of know your likelihood of matching into a DO program since matching into an MD program will be very very difficult.

-Reputation/pedigree
This matters greatly although is not an absolute. There are DOs in competitive specialties and some are even in leadership roles in respected hospitals/programs. But, my point here is that it's just more difficult to attain that as a DO if that sort of career advancement is important to you (for me it wasn't). People from low tier MD programs have a much harder time matching into top programs in a specialty. It's not unheard of but much harder. For a DO applicant to match into top programs in most specialty is even tougher for this reason. If you have a list of 2-3 specialties you are considering, find out which programs are top 20 in the nation (or even top half in the nation), go to their websites, look at where these residents went to med school. Unless the specialty is a less competitive one you'll not find DO after their names. But then again, who says you need to go to top programs to be happy? But, what I do not like is being more limited in my choices and having a harder time matching in to what I want just because an applicant went to a DO school. Unfair? Perhaps. But, that's just how it is.

-Holistic/happier
Observations that DO's are more holistic or happier than MD's have to be somewhat anecdotal. People are people and I feel that this aspect has more to do with the individual.

-Many DO applicants (not all) feel they need to take USMLE step 1. Do you really want this added pressure?

-Conclusion
I have really struggled with going DO and staying within 5 miles from my friends/family vs an MD school located across the country. I'm extremely relieve that I choose MD. Sure I was away from my friends and family. But, after all the hard work in pre-med and in med school I don't think I'd be happy knowing I will have a huge uphill battle if I want to get into an MD residency program in even moderately competitive specialty. This will put a tremendous pressure on me or cause some to just go for less competitive specialty. I wanted to maximize choices/options not less. Whether I ended up choosing FM or say radiology or derm I wanted more options and choices rather than the type of degree decreasing my options in comparison to MD applicants. Please understand that I'm not saying DO applicants do not have choices/options; I'm simply saying that they have less options than MD counterpart. Again, after all is said and done, you need to do what is right for you and what you think is going to make you happier. If that's a DO degree despite what I've stated, then that is the right choice for you.

Again, I really wanted to voice an opinion and tell you some things I struggled with and what I think of them after having been exposed to med school and the residency matching process in hopes of letting pre-meds on this site hear various points of view in order to make the most appropriate choice for him/herself.

Overall a BS post!

However, I do want to address some invalid points in your post:

1) There is NO DO school in the country that has 80% match rate. The average match rate is a lot closer to 90% for DO (combining osteopathic and allopathic matches). Therefore, if you go to a DO school you have ~90% chance of matching without scramble and all other unmatched applicants who want to match will get a spot in the scramble.

2) You make it sound like that the only requirement for matching into a "top 20" program is having an MD. If you look at the same residency rosters that you mentioned, you will also not find resident from many, many state MD schools (e.g. Univ. of Arkansas and Marshall University come to mind). The vast majority of these "top 20" places recruit from Top 20 MD schools as evident by their match list. So the correct statement is that if you don't attend a top 20 MD school, then you are at a disadvantage.

3) Last but not least, it is a lot easier to match into competitive residencies by participating in the osteopathic match than it is for allopaths participating in the allopathic match. If you really want to do surgery/radiology/etc., you are ALMOST guaranteed a spot in surgery/radiology/etc. in the osteopathic match (might not be your first choice but you will match)!

But as I have said many times, if you have any issues/concerns with osteopathic medicine, please stop applying to our schools!

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Going balls to the wall with urology. Pun intended. With ER being the fallback. Seems very different, but its two things that I've really loved. (internal medicine is too much distressing over minutiae and everyday health management for me. One of those things i'd have never expected before actually doing it)

Hmm... well good luck man.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Overall a BS post!

However, I do want to address some invalid points in your post:

1) There is NO DO school in the country that has 80% match rate. The average match rate is a lot closer to 90% for DO (combining osteopathic and allopathic matches). Therefore, if you go to a DO school you have ~90% chance of matching without scramble and all other unmatched applicants who want to match will get a spot in the scramble.

2) You make it sound like that the only requirement for matching into a "top 20" program is having an MD. If you look at the same residency rosters that you mentioned, you will also not find resident from many, many state MD schools (e.g. Univ. of Arkansas and Marshall University come to mind). The vast majority of these "top 20" places recruit from Top 20 MD schools as evident by their match list. So the correct statement is that if you don't attend a top 20 MD school, then you are at a disadvantage.

3) Last but not least, it is a lot easier to match into competitive residencies by participating in the osteopathic match than it is for allopaths participating in the allopathic match. If you really want to do surgery/radiology/etc., you are ALMOST guaranteed a spot in surgery/radiology/etc. in the osteopathic match (might not be your first choice but you will match)!

Go on... isn't the MD match rate for almost all residencies like 98%? So elaborate... Any Comlex score will get through?

But as I have said many times, if you have any issues/concerns with osteopathic medicine, please stop applying to our schools!

There is some interesting information on this thread.... contradictory information...

 

[DrMaximus]

If I was a sears spokesman, I'd be this guy.

[YOUTUBE]RdAm0hcpxX0[/YOUTUBE]

Best. Post. Ever. 😎

 

[scotchtapetest]

There is some interesting information on this thread.... contradictory information...

I don't understand your post!

Are you saying that 98% match to their desired specialty in the MD match? I don't know where you got that number but if it is correct, that's the power of self-selection! people with 190s do no apply to ortho! Same can be said about the DO match.

As far as the scores, I believe that it is a lot easier to match into a desired specialty in the osteopathic match with a subpar COMLEX score than it is for allopathic students with subpar USMLE scores in the allopathic match! for the following two reasons:
1) osteopathic residencies place more weight on your rotation than COMLEX score.
2) lot smaller applicant pool (although with smaller number of spots).

Now, can you match into DO ortho with 405 and 410 on COMLEX probably not and that was the reason why ALMOST was in all caps. BUT you have a better chance with a 50th percentile COMLEX score in the DO match than an MD student with a 50th percentile USMLE score in the MD match!

I know kids from my school who have matched competitive specialties (e.g. Urology/Surgery/Radiology) with fairly low COMLEX scores where with an equivalent USMLE score you would have close to no chance!

 

[NurWollen]

I don't get the college-aged obsession-- and I mean obsession-- with prestige. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of students, whether you go to Harvard or Pikesville, will be competent, completely non-famous physicians who have an impact in their local community. To say that "DO will limit your options of becoming program director of ________ Super Residency as Elite University Hospital" is asinine.

 

[AlabamaPop]

I am sure you were hoping for a "great and informative post" but I am not going to do that, someone else will. This is one giant "don't go DO post." You say go DO if you want primary care. Nothing in your post talks about personal preference regarding location, friends, family, whatever. You say you struggled and choice a MD school across country. Good for you. And because you looked at OMM texts does not mean you know OMM or anything about it.

You clearly wanted MD and got into a DO school. Cool. There are thousands like you. But don't come on the pre osteo forum thinking we should thank you for your information. Nothing you said is profound. Apparently you saw a bunch of threads from a ms1 or ms4 of EM doc and thought you could help. This thread is worthless.

I am sorry, but I am sick of people coming on here and bad talking DO. If you don't want to go DO, don't. It is as simple as that. But don't come on here preaching your flavor of garbage because nobody cares. And if you say this isn't a MD vs. DO thread than you clearly can't read because that is exactly what this is.

Tl;dr: cool story bro.

Amen! You used your fiery tongue on something that definitely deserved it. I couldn't agree with you more. He definitely tries to come off as goodie-two-shoes life counselor, when he's clearly, but yet indirectly bashing DO as a narrow-minded, prestige-seeking, egotistical MD student, which we couldn't have enough of em in these forums.

I don't get the college-aged obsession-- and I mean obsession-- with prestige. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of students, whether you go to Harvard or Pikesville, will be competent, completely non-famous physicians who have an impact in their local community. To say that "DO will limit your options of becoming program director of ________ Super Residency as Elite University Hospital" is asinine.

Exactly! Remember guys when your peers led you to believe that if you didn't get into a prestigious college, or that if you went to a community college after high school, you needed to kiss your big dreams good bye? haha.

History repeats itself guys! NO MATTER WHAT COLLEGE YOU GO TO, AS LONG AS YOU DO WELL, GET A HIGH GPA, ROCK THE MCAT, MANY OPPORTUNITIES WILL OPEN AT OUR DOOR!

again: DOESN'T MATTER WHAT TYPE OF MEDICAL SCHOOL YOU GO TO, IF YOU ROCK YOUR CLASSES, ROCK YOUR BOARD EXAMS, ROCK YOUR ROTATIONS, MANY OPPORTUNITIES WILL OPEN AT YOUR DOOR!

encore: DOESN'T MATTER WHAT DEGREE INITIALS YOU HAVE, IF YOU STRIVE TO BE THE BEST EMPLOYEE, GIVE THE BEST CARE AS A PHYSICIAN, IMPRESS YOUR PHYSICIAN SUPERVISORS, DON'T BE SURPRISED IF ONE DAY YOU END UP AS DEPARTMENT DIRECTOR!

'nuff said!

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I don't understand your post!
How do you misunderstand 3 sentences?

Are you saying that 98% match to their desired specialty in the MD match? I don't know where you got that number but if it is correct, that's the power of self-selection! people with 190s do no apply to ortho! Same can be said about the DO match.
The ACGME site or something. Alright, so your principle of guaranteedidness is faulty.

As far as the scores, I believe that it is a lot easier to match into a desired specialty in the osteopathic match with a subpar COMLEX score than it is for allopathic students with subpar USMLE scores in the allopathic match! for the following two reasons:
1) osteopathic residencies place more weight on your rotation than COMLEX score.
2) lot smaller applicant pool (although with smaller number of spots).

Alright... Ok, I can go with that... Though it seems like this is the same with MD students.

Now, can you match into DO ortho with 405 and 410 on COMLEX probably not and that was the reason why ALMOST was in all caps. BUT you have a better chance with a 50th percentile COMLEX score in the DO match than an MD student with a 50th percentile USMLE score in the MD match!
Eh, I think the AOA posted that the average COMLEX score was like around 550 for DO Ortho... and the boxplot was relatively conservative So Idk what to say... and most people say they score pretty bad on the COMLEX since it's so badly written.

I know kids from my school who have matched competitive specialties (e.g. Urology/Surgery/Radiology) with fairly low COMLEX scores where with an equivalent USMLE score you would have close to no chance!

Anecdotes?...
Yah... can you provide some non-anecdotal evidence/objective statistics on this?

 

[Iliketoytles]

 

[akatigerj]

Overall a BS post!

However, I do want to address some invalid points in your post:

1) There is NO DO school in the country that has 80% match rate. The average match rate is a lot closer to 90% for DO (combining osteopathic and allopathic matches). Therefore, if you go to a DO school you have ~90% chance of matching without scramble and all other unmatched applicants who want to match will get a spot in the scramble.

2) You make it sound like that the only requirement for matching into a "top 20" program is having an MD. If you look at the same residency rosters that you mentioned, you will also not find resident from many, many state MD schools (e.g. Univ. of Arkansas and Marshall University come to mind). The vast majority of these "top 20" places recruit from Top 20 MD schools as evident by their match list. So the correct statement is that if you don't attend a top 20 MD school, then you are at a disadvantage.

3) Last but not least, it is a lot easier to match into competitive residencies by participating in the osteopathic match than it is for allopaths participating in the allopathic match. If you really want to do surgery/radiology/etc., you are ALMOST guaranteed a spot in surgery/radiology/etc. in the osteopathic match (might not be your first choice but you will match)!

But as I have said many times, if you have any issues/concerns with osteopathic medicine, please stop applying to our schools!

in reference to 3)... really? i thought for those you had to get 600+ comlex

 

[scotchtapetest]

in reference to 3)... really? i thought for those you had to get 600+ comlex

Originally Posted by bala565
I don't understand your post!
How do you misunderstand 3 sentences?

Are you saying that 98% match to their desired specialty in the MD match? I don't know where you got that number but if it is correct, that's the power of self-selection! people with 190s do no apply to ortho! Same can be said about the DO match.
The ACGME site or something. Alright, so your principle of guaranteedidness is faulty.

As far as the scores, I believe that it is a lot easier to match into a desired specialty in the osteopathic match with a subpar COMLEX score than it is for allopathic students with subpar USMLE scores in the allopathic match! for the following two reasons:
1) osteopathic residencies place more weight on your rotation than COMLEX score.
2) lot smaller applicant pool (although with smaller number of spots).

Alright... Ok, I can go with that... Though it seems like this is the same with MD students.

Now, can you match into DO ortho with 405 and 410 on COMLEX probably not and that was the reason why ALMOST was in all caps. BUT you have a better chance with a 50th percentile COMLEX score in the DO match than an MD student with a 50th percentile USMLE score in the MD match!
Eh, I think the AOA posted that the average COMLEX score was like around 550 for DO Ortho... and the boxplot was relatively conservative So Idk what to say... and most people say they score pretty bad on the COMLEX since it's so badly written.

I know kids from my school who have matched competitive specialties (e.g. Urology/Surgery/Radiology) with fairly low COMLEX scores where with an equivalent USMLE score you would have close to no chance!
Anecdotes?...
Yah... can you provide some non-anecdotal evidence/objective statistics on this?

1) I didn't say it was guaranteed; if you read my original post I said ALMOST guaranteed.

2) How can "most people" score badly on COMLEX when the damn thing is graded on a curve? Your actual grade (not pass/fail status) is based on your peers' performances. And don't get me started on the COMLEX style again! Just because you and your friends don't like the style does NOT make it a "badly" written exam (read my numerous previous posts on the subject if you care to do so)!

3) I don't think there is any way to necessarily prove or disprove my argument except using anecdotal evidence. If you can disprove my argument, please feel free to do so! As a 4th year who has been around for some years now, I've seen enough people with low stats match into competitive specialties in the DO match to form an opinion! You (or anyone else) can disagree with my opinion which is totally fine with me!

3a) BTW since you brought up ortho:
-Median USMLE-1 score for US MD seniors was 240. The average USMLE-1 for US MD seniors was 225 (s.d.=20.6). So the average student who matched had a median score fairly close to 1 SD away from the mean.
-On the other hand, COMLEX-1 median for Ortho was 551 whereas the average COMLEX score is 500 (s.d. = 81). Therefore, as compared to the MD match the median COMLEX score for DO ortho was considerably less than 1 SD from the mean.
-Translation = Lower COMLEX percentile median for matching DO ortho as a DO compared to USMLE percentile median for matching MD ortho as an MD. Further SUPPORTING (not proving) my argument!

3b) Also, "the boxplot" was 408 - 751 for DO ortho! I would hardly call that conservative, since it practically encompasses ALMOST all passing scores! The USMLE boxplot for MD match for ortho was 230-250, even further supporting my arguments!

4) what is your argument? It is easier to match ortho as an MD in the MD match than it is to match ortho as a DO in the DO match? (I disagree)

 

[jinobi]

Look, several of my classmates and myself decided to decline our DO acceptances and accept MD when given the chance.

We were generally seeking the most flexibility possible within ACGME residencies, since we understood that our specialty preference may change as we go onto clinicals. We didn't have family, significant others, etc. tying us down to a particular region. OMM wasn't a big thing for us, we just wanted to be doctors.

We would have been proud to become DOs, as better to be a doctor than not one at all (or have to go Caribbean - again, this reasoning is based on how difficult it would have been to match into a specialty of our preference). However, when given the chance to receive an MD, we went for it.

It came down to personal preference. There is an advantage for going MD depending on how difficult of a specialty you want to match into, but there are other lifestyle factors and realistic factors (i.e. can you even get into a MD school vs a DO school) that must be considered.

 

[Iliketoytles]

 

[scotchtapetest]

Look, several of my classmates and myself decided to decline our DO acceptances and accept MD when given the chance.

We were generally seeking the most flexibility possible within ACGME residencies, since we understood that our specialty preference may change as we go onto clinicals. We didn't have family, significant others, etc. tying us down to a particular region. OMM wasn't a big thing for us, we just wanted to be doctors.

We would have been proud to become DOs, as better to be a doctor than not one at all (or have to go Caribbean - again, this reasoning is based on how difficult it would have been to match into a specialty of our preference). However, when given the chance to receive an MD, we went for it.

It came down to personal preference. There is an advantage for going MD depending on how difficult of a specialty you want to match into, but there are other lifestyle factors and realistic factors (i.e. can you even get into a MD school vs a DO school) that must be considered.

Also, several of my classmate and myself decided to decline our MD acceptances to go to DO schools and had nothing to do with OMM. Had everything to do with location, type of students, faculty, etc.

There is nothing wrong with either approach, but don't come here and tell people that the only thing between them and MGH is the DO vs MD behind their name.

The only true advantage is when you attend a top 20-30 MD school and is not because of the MD, it is because of the top 20-30. And as I have argued in this very thread (see above), if you really want to do a very competitive specialty and you don't get accepted to a top 20-30 MD school, you may even have a SLIGHT advantage given the DO match! It's not gonna be at MGH/Columbia but you get to practice that specialty.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

1) I didn't say it was guaranteed; if you read my original post I said ALMOST guaranteed.

2) How can "most people" score badly on COMLEX when the damn thing is graded on a curve? Your actual grade (not pass/fail status) is based on your peers' performances. And don't get me started on the COMLEX style again! Just because you and your friends don't like the style does NOT make it a "badly" written exam (read my numerous previous posts on the subject if you care to do so)!

3) I don't think there is any way to necessarily prove or disprove my argument except using anecdotal evidence. If you can disprove my argument, please feel free to do so! As a 4th year who has been around for some years now, I've seen enough people with low stats match into competitive specialties in the DO match to form an opinion! You (or anyone else) can disagree with my opinion which is totally fine with me!

3a) BTW since you brought up ortho:
-Median USMLE-1 score for US MD seniors was 240. The average USMLE-1 for US MD seniors was 225 (s.d.=20.6). So the average student who matched had a median score fairly close to 1 SD away from the mean.
-On the other hand, COMLEX-1 median for Ortho was 551 whereas the average COMLEX score is 500 (s.d. = 81). Therefore, as compared to the MD match the median COMLEX score for DO ortho was considerably less than 1 SD from the mean.
-Translation = Lower COMLEX percentile median for matching DO ortho as a DO compared to USMLE percentile median for matching MD ortho as an MD. Further SUPPORTING (not proving) my argument!

3b) Also, "the boxplot" was 408 - 751 for DO ortho! I would hardly call that conservative, since it practically encompasses ALMOST all passing scores! The USMLE boxplot for MD match for ortho was 230-250, even further supporting my arguments!

4) what is your argument? It is easier to match ortho as an MD in the MD match than it is to match ortho as a DO in the DO match? (I disagree)

Alright 1) I'm playing devils advocate. I want good answers out of you.
2) Take a freaken Valium! Every response you post is incredibly aggressive and defensive.
3) Like I said, I asked you for good information. I got it, you did good.

 

[jinobi]

There is nothing wrong with either approach, but don't come here and tell people that the only thing between them and MGH is the DO vs MD behind their name.

Agree with you on that. I know of some amazing DOs who matched into very competitive programs like MGH/UC, but they had to work their butts off to match into ACGME programs that had not had a history of taking DOs into their PGY1 class.

Some programs just aren't used to taking DOs, so you have to "prove" yourself more as a DO rather than if you were an MD student by taking the USMLE Step 1, seeking ward-based rotations, etc.

Key point: the vast majority of specialties offer equal opportunity for MDs and DOs, like DocEspana said. Geographic representation of these programs, however, is a different matter.

 

[DO Anes]

Even trolls can be right sometimes.
To be completely pragmatic and objective, given a choice, US MD preferable to DO, no question about it. The osteopathic profession has allowed itself to deteriorate with inferior accreditation standards and no regard for clinical education, either at the UGME or GME level. You cannot blindly open new schools with massive class sizes, haphazard clerkships, laughable research and no GME without the house of cards falling apart. Consider the GME funding crunch in Congress now. When CMS decides which residencies to stop funding (and they are going to have to make that choice) who will they cut? An ACGME-accredited internal medicine position at a major quaternary medical center, or an AOA-accredited internal medicine spot at a 135 bed community hospital in a town of 30,000 (can that community hospital really provide a quality residency experience for 30! individuals)? The writing is on the wall and it is sad, as I believe the profession can provide superior patient care over allopathic, but they have let that go in favor of $$$. For students without a choice, this is still a great way to become a physician and hard work will provide opportunities, but it is simply wrong to believe that it is equivalent to opportunities for US MD grads. As a DO in practice for >20 years, it breaks my heart to see where we have come.

 

[scotchtapetest]

Even trolls can be right sometimes.
To be completely pragmatic and objective, given a choice, US MD preferable to DO, no question about it. The osteopathic profession has allowed itself to deteriorate with inferior accreditation standards and no regard for clinical education, either at the UGME or GME level. You cannot blindly open new schools with massive class sizes, haphazard clerkships, laughable research and no GME without the house of cards falling apart. Consider the GME funding crunch in Congress now. When CMS decides which residencies to stop funding (and they are going to have to make that choice) who will they cut? An ACGME-accredited internal medicine position at a major quaternary medical center, or an AOA-accredited internal medicine spot at a 135 bed community hospital in a town of 30,000 (can that community hospital really provide a quality residency experience for 30! individuals)? The writing is on the wall and it is sad, as I believe the profession can provide superior patient care over allopathic, but they have let that go in favor of $$$. For students without a choice, this is still a great way to become a physician and hard work will provide opportunities, but it is simply wrong to believe that it is equivalent to opportunities for US MD grads. As a DO in practice for >20 years, it breaks my heart to see where we have come.

With all due respect, as a profession and as far as available opportunities are concerned we are in a much better place than we were 20 years ago. Thanks to the hard work and superb service of people like you who have practiced as osteopathic physicians in the past 20+ years.

However, I do agree with the premise (not details) of your post regarding opening so many new schools with ridiculous class sizes and inadequate OGME spots!

 

[DocEspana]

Stop fighting amongst yourselves.

And for the record. If I looked at the application process differently (I personally refused to leave the northeast, so i was stuck trying to get into the hardest MD schools out there) I would have taken MD over DO for a whole mess of reasons. I'm not above saying that. BUT I personally refused to leave the northeast and did turn down two MD acceptances (out of 3 applications, so thats a good rate) outside of the northeast region. Also, now that I'm in the DO system I see that I have lined myself up for a nice residency opportunity with AOA having a smaller pond to compete in for some of the more elusive residencies.

TLDR: My personal opinion is MD > DO in more situations than the other way around. I happen to be really enjoying that there are some distinct advanages to DO in certain situations. This argument is stupid, if you're going to debate it, at least dont go for each other's throats, it just looks poor.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Stop fighting amongst yourselves.

And for the record. If I looked at the application process differently (I personally refused to leave the northeast, so i was stuck trying to get into the hardest MD schools out there) I would have taken MD over DO for a whole mess of reasons. I'm not above saying that. BUT I personally refused to leave the northeast and did turn down two MD acceptances (out of 3 applications, so thats a good rate) outside of the northeast region. Also, now that I'm in the DO system I see that I have lined myself up for a nice residency opportunity with AOA having a smaller pond to compete in for some of the more elusive residencies.

TLDR: My personal opinion is MD > DO in more situations than the other way around. I happen to be really enjoying that there are some distinct advanages to DO in certain situations. This argument is stupid, if you're going to debate it, at least dont go for each other's throats, it just looks poor.

Uz a snowophile? But yah, my list of MD schools is pretty Northeast heavy too, though I admittedly can say that I wouldn't mind something a bit more warm, i.e Texas or Florida.... To bad that is basically impossible for me...

 

[ksmajmudar]

Look, several of my classmates and myself decided to decline our DO acceptances and accept MD when given the chance.

We were generally seeking the most flexibility possible within ACGME residencies, since we understood that our specialty preference may change as we go onto clinicals. We didn't have family, significant others, etc. tying us down to a particular region. OMM wasn't a big thing for us, we just wanted to be doctors.

We would have been proud to become DOs, as better to be a doctor than not one at all (or have to go Caribbean - again, this reasoning is based on how difficult it would have been to match into a specialty of our preference). However, when given the chance to receive an MD, we went for it.

It came down to personal preference. There is an advantage for going MD depending on how difficult of a specialty you want to match into, but there are other lifestyle factors and realistic factors (i.e. can you even get into a MD school vs a DO school) that must be considered.

I agree with this logic. It really should be that simple.

 

[Iliketoytles]

Dang... I was sure Blastoise would put an end to the arguing. Guess his level isn't high enough.

 

[Ebola4Breakfast]

Stop fighting amongst yourselves.

And for the record. If I looked at the application process differently (I personally refused to leave the northeast, so i was stuck trying to get into the hardest MD schools out there) I would have taken MD over DO for a whole mess of reasons. I'm not above saying that. BUT I personally refused to leave the northeast and did turn down two MD acceptances (out of 3 applications, so thats a good rate) outside of the northeast region. Also, now that I'm in the DO system I see that I have lined myself up for a nice residency opportunity with AOA having a smaller pond to compete in for some of the more elusive residencies.

TLDR: My personal opinion is MD > DO in more situations than the other way around. I happen to be really enjoying that there are some distinct advanages to DO in certain situations. This argument is stupid, if you're going to debate it, at least dont go for each other's throats, it just looks poor.

I took the same approach. I applied to almost every school in the deep south, whether MD or DO. It's nice to see someone else who took the same approach. Most people thought I was crazy not to broaden my school list.

 

[DocEspana]

I took the same approach. I applied to almost every school in the deep south, whether MD or DO. It's nice to see someone else who took the same approach. Most people thought I was crazy not to broaden my school list.

If it can't snow and I can't see the ocean after a decent drive I dont want to be there. I chose do in nyc over md in a place where, good as the training may be, i would never want to practice so training there prior to residency is a waste of the home team advantage local schools have on residency programs.

 

[Jnet389]

Dang... I was sure Blastoise would put an end to the arguing. Guess his level isn't high enough.

haha I love how everyone just ignores your random pictures in there.

 

[ParacrineAgent]

Dang... I was sure Blastoise would put an end to the arguing. Guess his level isn't high enough.

Maybe you should have gone with a Charizard?..

 

[Telekinesis]

Maybe you should have gone with a Charizard?..

C'mon guys... Mewtwo😀

 

[IDFsoldierboy]

If it can't snow and I can't see the ocean after a decent drive I dont want to be there. I chose do in nyc over md in a place where, good as the training may be, i would never want to practice so training there prior to residency is a waste of the home team advantage local schools have on residency programs.

off the topic...love your new profile pic...can't wait for the new season of game of thrones to start!
read the books after I saw last season so awesome!