Something I noticed at interviews...

[Compozine]

Most people applying to medical school are "nontraditional." When my father went to med school 35 years ago, virtually everyone in his class came right out of college. People knew by the time they were 18 or 19 that they wanted to be doctors, and they went straight through the premed program without taking time off afterwards, etc. There were no post-bacs to salvage a bad GPA, and nobody took a year off to "find themselves." Why is it that it is now actually difficult to find an applicant who applied straight out of college? Also, do medical schools recognize the difference between students who take the MCAT during a full college courseload, and those who take a year or two off just to study? I am not critisizing the non traditionals, I am just curious why that have actually become the norm.

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[lilnoelle]

haha, I'm non traditional and I thought the opposite at my interviews. I think whether a person percieves a the majority to be traditional or non traditional depends on their own status.
And most people don't take a year or two off to study. For me, and I think for others as well, we weren't sure we wanted to be doctors or had circumstances that prevented us from applying right away. So we actually have to take the MCAT less prepared (because we've been out for a while) than those that are currently taking the courses. My score sure suffered for that reason.

 

[cdngirl80]

I think it has to do with the fact that its a lot harder to get into med school now then it was 30-40 years ago, so as a result you have lot more people having to pursue a second degree, take time off, etc. My friend's dad is one of the top cardiologists in canada but back when he was a student he wanted to be fisherman except usually that type of business is handed down in the family. So instead he opted to go to med school because the province he lived in was desperate for physicias so they were offereing people full-rides to med school if they stayed in the area and practiced. Also the doctor that I shadowed said she didn't even have a resume when she applied and she did her undergrad in art history. So i definitely think its a lot harder to get in now then it was back when our parents were young, although i wish that weren't the case.

 

[star22]

Most people applying to medical school are "nontraditional." When my father went to med school 35 years ago, virtually everyone in his class came right out of college. People knew by the time they were 18 or 19 that they wanted to be doctors, and they went straight through the premed program without taking time off afterwards, etc. There were no post-bacs to salvage a bad GPA, and nobody took a year off to "find themselves." Why is it that it is now actually difficult to find an applicant who applied straight out of college? Also, do medical schools recognize the difference between students who take the MCAT during a full college courseload, and those who take a year or two off just to study? I am not critisizing the non traditionals, I am just curious why that have actually become the norm.

You never wanted to live in a foreign country or pursue a hobby or interesting job full-time for a while? You were never curious what it would be like to not be a student? There is a lot of life outside of academia, hospitals, etc. As for having a year two off to study for the MCAT.... some may consider this a disadvantage (been away from the material longer, have a full-time job and other commitments, etc)

 

[jbrice1639]

i agree with the poster who said they saw the opposite. in my three interviews, i came across a total of 4 other students who were not 21 or 22 year old college seniors. may just depend on the day...or the school though.

 

[tara14]

Well times have changed a lot since your dad was in med school. School has become more expensive, it is harder to get into med school - taking these factors into consideration and the amount of loans that you now have to take out to become a doctor, some find it wiser to take time off between undergrad and med school to make sure that it is really the path in life that they want to take because it is an expensive and time consuming undertaking, because it would really suck to enter med school, take out tons of loans and then realize half way through that you don't like medicine anymore or that it really wasn't what you wanted to do with your life.

 

[LizzyM]

Most applicants are applying right out of college (still in college while interviewing). I'm sure that AAMC has stats on this. On the other hand, there are more "non-traditional" students than there were 35 years ago but I suspect that there are more women applicants and more URM applicants than there were 35 years ago. The doors are open wider now, there are many excellent applicants, and the competition is fierce. GPA and MCAT scores that would have been acceptable even 10 years ago don't make the cut now.

Beyond scores, schools have found that older applicants with "life experience" make fine doctors and are able to manage the rigors of medical school and bring a certain "something" to the class. This is not a new phenomenon, "non-trads" have been admitted to medical schools for decades - we are just seeing larger numbers now than in the past.

The biggest group of "non-trads" were the WWII veterans who came back to the GI Bill, attended college years later than would have been typical if not for the war, and went on to be known as "The Greatest Generation".

Finally, don't confuse who applies with who gets in. Someone who can't do well in a full-time program and who has gaps in their work history (studying for MCAT) is not going to be an attractive applicant for admission.

 

[Compozine]

You never wanted to live in a foreign country or pursue a hobby or interesting job full-time for a while? You were never curious what it would be like to not be a student? There is a lot of life outside of academia, hospitals, etc. As for having a year two off to study for the MCAT.... some may consider this a disadvantage (been away from the material longer, have a full-time job and other commitments, etc)

Nope

 

[star22]

Nope

Then life might be rough for you if you don't get accepted the first time you apply.

 

[Compozine]

I think the world has become a very PC place. Don't get me wrong, I think it is wonderful that women and minorities are entering medicine in growing numbers. But I think there is this emphasis now on "don't worry, you can still be a doctor" mentality. It used to be that your performance in college was a direct indicator of how you would handle medical school. I just don't understand why now, with competition fiercer than ever, we have this "no problem if you have a low GPA" attitude. These post bac programs make it so people can go do the premed program all over again if they didn't do well the first time. What about the people who did well with only one shot?

I also have to wonder if these people who insist they "need time to figure out if medicine is really what they want to do" really should be choosing medicine. Medicine is a calling, and I don't think you should have to work 10 years at some other unrelated job to figure out that you actually want to be a doctor. I mean, at one of my interviews there was a 47 year old woman who had had five prior carreers (including concert violinist, engineer, accountant, bussiness owner, and teacher), and then just woke up one day and said, "hey, I think I will give medicine a try." I don't know, the seats in med school are all precious, and I don't think it is right to give them away to a person who is just doing it to add another career to the list.

 

[Compozine]

Then life might be rough for you if you don't get accepted the first time you apply.

Guess what? I have two acceptances, and a pending waitlist at my top choice. So I am not worried

 

[etf]

i've actually got a theory about this, because i noticed it too - at all my interviews, i was the only one that was in college. my interviews were kinda late in the season (like dec - apr, maybe that's not late but still...) and i always thought that i was being interviewed with students with similar stats (in other words, not that hot). it seemed to me that all the stellar, still in college applicants would have there interviews in like sep, and what was left over was for me and the non-trads (not saying they are not stellar, because most were!!!).

my crappy theory aside, i myself have always known what i wanted to do, and am eager to embark upon the path to earn the privilege to do it. i never considered taking a year off, but with the way this waitlist situation is working out, i might be forced to...

 

[deleted50541]

I concur with noelleruckman and jbrice about seeing mostly "traditional" applicants, roughly 80%, at my interviews. Although only 24 y/o, I was usually the oldest person there too.

The biggest group of "non-trads" were the WWII veterans who came back to the GI Bill, attended college years later than would have been typical if not for the war, and went on to be known as "The Greatest Generation".

That was what my grandfather had done. He served as a medic in the Army and for a time, saw to the health of German POWs because he was the only person in his unit who could speak German. When he returned home, he decided to enter medicine and eventually earned his MD from UPenn.

 

[LizzyM]

Guess what? I have two acceptances, and a pending waitlist at my top choice. So I am not worried

I am worried that you are going to have a hard time getting along with others in your class and with whom you work when you get to the clinical environment.

There are many different roads to medical school and there are many different gifts that individual matriculants bring to the table.

Every applicant is asked to demonstrate an understanding of medicine as a career and to have tested the calling to that career through work (volunteer or paid) in health care settings. If you walk in with the attitude that some of your classmates don't belong there, you are going to need to adjust your thinking in order to survive and thrive.

 

[registered user]

I think the world has become a very PC place. Don't get me wrong, I think it is wonderful that women and minorities are entering medicine in growing numbers. But I think there is this emphasis now on "don't worry, you can still be a doctor" mentality. It used to be that your performance in college was a direct indicator of how you would handle medical school. I just don't understand why now, with competition fiercer than ever, we have this "no problem if you have a low GPA" attitude. These post bac programs make it so people can go do the premed program all over again if they didn't do well the first time. What about the people who did well with only one shot?

I also have to wonder if these people who insist they "need time to figure out if medicine is really what they want to do" really should be choosing medicine. Medicine is a calling, and I don't think you should have to work 10 years at some other unrelated job to figure out that you actually want to be a doctor. I mean, at one of my interviews there was a 47 year old woman who had had five prior carreers (including concert violinist, engineer, accountant, bussiness owner, and teacher), and then just woke up one day and said, "hey, I think I will give medicine a try." I don't know, the seats in med school are all precious, and I don't think it is right to give them away to a person who is just doing it to add another career to the list.

That's a pretty high horse you got there.

 

[Compozine]

I am worried that you are going to have a hard time getting along with others in your class and with whom you work when you get to the clinical environment.

There are many different roads to medical school and there are many different gifts that individual matriculants bring to the table.

Every applicant is asked to demonstrate an understanding of medicine as a career and to have tested the calling to that career through work (volunteer or paid) in health care settings. If you walk in with the attitude that some of your classmates don't belong there, you are going to need to adjust your thinking in order to survive and thrive.

There is a difference between what you think and feel, and what you show to people in the public environment. I would never walk up to someone and say, "you don't belong here," or express to them that that is my opinion. Why is it that every time someone posts something even slightly controversial on this website, it turns into a "you will be a bad doctor" pissing contest. Please!!!

 

[LizzyM]

There is a difference between what you think and feel, and what you show to people in the public environment. I would never walk up to someone and say, "you don't belong here," or express to them that that is my opinion. Why is it that every time someone posts something even slightly controversial on this website, it turns into a "you will be a bad doctor" pissing contest. Please!!!

Because you can make your opinions known without ever speaking a word to the person you feel is unworthy.

 

[Wolfgang12345]

Also, do medical schools recognize the difference between students who take the MCAT during a full college courseload, and those who take a year or two off just to study?

Haha... are you serious? I took the MCAT SIX years after taking the courses it tests you on - while working full time (i.e. 45+ hours/week) - and while also getting a Master's Degree at night. If anything, schools give a little more leeway to non-trad students because we had to completely re-learn the material while also dealing with the inanities of living an adult life. I've never heard of someone taking a year or two "off" just to study for the MCAT.

In my case, I didn't go med school right away because it's too expensive and I don't have anyone else (ie. parents) to pay my way... I don't really see how that affects my dedication to the profession...

 

[Apparition]

I think the world has become a very PC place. Don't get me wrong, I think it is wonderful that women and minorities are entering medicine in growing numbers. But I think there is this emphasis now on "don't worry, you can still be a doctor" mentality. It used to be that your performance in college was a direct indicator of how you would handle medical school. I just don't understand why now, with competition fiercer than ever, we have this "no problem if you have a low GPA" attitude. These post bac programs make it so people can go do the premed program all over again if they didn't do well the first time. What about the people who did well with only one shot?

I also have to wonder if these people who insist they "need time to figure out if medicine is really what they want to do" really should be choosing medicine. Medicine is a calling, and I don't think you should have to work 10 years at some other unrelated job to figure out that you actually want to be a doctor. I mean, at one of my interviews there was a 47 year old woman who had had five prior carreers (including concert violinist, engineer, accountant, bussiness owner, and teacher), and then just woke up one day and said, "hey, I think I will give medicine a try." I don't know, the seats in med school are all precious, and I don't think it is right to give them away to a person who is just doing it to add another career to the list.

Perhaps the shift happened because the admissions committees realized that it doesn't take only academic success to do well in medicine but also life experience, social skills and maturity you gain when you spend a few years in the real world, among normal non-medical people, kind of like your patients will be. Not everyone who has a "calling" is fortunate enough to pursue it after high school. There are personal circumstances for many people that prevent this. Having another career before med school probably also reduces "the grass is greener on the other side" thoughts during stressful times in training.

 

[Compozine]

Because you can make your opinions known without ever speaking a word to the person you feel is unworthy.

I am not judging who is worthy and who is unworthy. That is not my goal. I am just pointing out something that has become a real trend. I don't think it is a good thing that students can screw around in college, then do a one year post bac and be accepted into medical school. But that is just my opinion. I just don't understand why immedietly when people on here feel threatened they resort to posts like "what will you do when you don't get accepted?" or "you will make a bad doctor."

I have good stats, good ECs, had good interviews, and I got into two good schools. I am grateful because I think there is a certain amount of luck involved in the process, but I also worked very hard for four years (actually, since high school). I am not judging who deserves to get in and who does not, that is not my place.

 

[Carmenita79]

I think the world has become a very PC place. Don't get me wrong, I think it is wonderful that women and minorities are entering medicine in growing numbers. But I think there is this emphasis now on "don't worry, you can still be a doctor" mentality. It used to be that your performance in college was a direct indicator of how you would handle medical school. I just don't understand why now, with competition fiercer than ever, we have this "no problem if you have a low GPA" attitude. These post bac programs make it so people can go do the premed program all over again if they didn't do well the first time. What about the people who did well with only one shot?

I also have to wonder if these people who insist they "need time to figure out if medicine is really what they want to do" really should be choosing medicine. Medicine is a calling, and I don't think you should have to work 10 years at some other unrelated job to figure out that you actually want to be a doctor. I mean, at one of my interviews there was a 47 year old woman who had had five prior carreers (including concert violinist, engineer, accountant, bussiness owner, and teacher), and then just woke up one day and said, "hey, I think I will give medicine a try." I don't know, the seats in med school are all precious, and I don't think it is right to give them away to a person who is just doing it to add another career to the list.

I am a non-trad, but I was a Spanish/General Science major in college and never considered medicine (actually wanted to be a teacher). After college, I began working as an advocate for migrant workers in a non-profit organization and that is really how I came to realize that I could contribute much more to the community as a doctor. A lot of people in my shoes would now have to go back to school to do a post bac to pick up the core classes (not because they screwed up as undergrads). You also should understand that because your father is a doctor you probably exposed to medicine as a career option earlier than most and entered undergrad with that goal and never deviated from it (which is great), but not everyone has had the same opportunities as you.

 

[LizzyM]

I am not judging who is worthy and who is unworthy. That is not my goal. I am just pointing out something that has become a real trend. I don't think it is a good thing that students can screw around in college, then do a one year post bac and be accepted into medical school. But that is just my opinion. I just don't understand why immedietly when people on here feel threatened they resort to posts like "what will you do when you don't get accepted?" or "you will make a bad doctor."

I have good stats, good ECs, had good interviews, and I got into two good schools. I am grateful because I think there is a certain amount of luck involved in the process, but I also worked very hard for four years (actually, since high school). I am not judging who deserves to get in and who does not, that is not my place.

Most adcom members don't think that it is a good idea either. While the cheerleaders on sdn encourage one another, doing a post-bach to make up for a poor undergrad pre-med record is a very arduous climb and many, many are unsuccessful. Don't confuse what you read on these boards with what happens in the admissions process.

 

[Avalanche21]

Because you can make your opinions known without ever speaking a word to the person you feel is unworthy.

So true...

Compozine, I understand what you're saying...but like in any situation, try to put yourself in a non-trad's shoes. By the way, I'm a trad so this is me guessing. I would rather take the MCAT while in college. In fact, I would rather take it in April when I have other courses than in August when I'd have the summer to study. This is because I'm in the "study mode", everyone else is studying, just seems easier. Both of these options still seem better than taking it two years down the road. Imagine not being in school and perhaps not being in "the mode" to study diligently. I think it would be tough.

As for post-bac's rasing GPA's, yes, it does seem unfair at times. But it's not like they're getting into medical school exactly like you are. They will enter and leave med school older than you are. Also, some people made mistakes during their undergrad by not studying hard enough. Consider it a second chance...and most of us were probably given a second chance regarding some situation at some point in time.

But like I said, I see where you're coming from, I just think it's hard for trads to understand the other side of it.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

I think the world has become a very PC place. Don't get me wrong, I think it is wonderful that women and minorities are entering medicine in growing numbers. But I think there is this emphasis now on "don't worry, you can still be a doctor" mentality. It used to be that your performance in college was a direct indicator of how you would handle medical school. I just don't understand why now, with competition fiercer than ever, we have this "no problem if you have a low GPA" attitude. These post bac programs make it so people can go do the premed program all over again if they didn't do well the first time. What about the people who did well with only one shot?

I also have to wonder if these people who insist they "need time to figure out if medicine is really what they want to do" really should be choosing medicine. Medicine is a calling, and I don't think you should have to work 10 years at some other unrelated job to figure out that you actually want to be a doctor. I mean, at one of my interviews there was a 47 year old woman who had had five prior carreers (including concert violinist, engineer, accountant, bussiness owner, and teacher), and then just woke up one day and said, "hey, I think I will give medicine a try." I don't know, the seats in med school are all precious, and I don't think it is right to give them away to a person who is just doing it to add another career to the list.

Not stated in a very PC way but there are elements of truth to this. From a completely rational and statistical standpoint there is some degree of madness in admitting people who are 35+ to med school over those who are 25.

Don't get mad, think about it. Our fellow citizens make a HUGE investment in the training of each physician, our education is subsidized and the gov't pays our salaries during residency. To that end, medicine doesn't just exist as a field for those that have a passion for "helping people" or for those who "know it is for them." It also exists to provide the maximum service for the maximum number of years.

Take a hypothetical student who is independantly wealthy. Right out of college he decides to go to med school and pays his way (while society chips in the other 3/4). Thinks anesthesia (or whatever) is cool and goes into that. Gets paid by the gov't all through residency and then decides to work 2 days a week in outpt surgery while golfing the other 5. This is UNETHICAL.

In the same way, to admit someone to med school who is 47 years old... I don't know, that person is going to be 55 by the time they get out of residency and unless they are SUPERHUMAN most likely only has 10-15 years of full time work left in them. I'm sure someone knows a doc that is 92 and still works 60 hours a week in the MICU -- but the plural of anecdote is not "data."

If there are two equal applicants, one who is 24 and one is 37, it is only fair to admit the one who is 13 years younger in the hope that s/he can give a decade more service for the citizen's investment.

There are non-trads in my class and they rock, I don't question their sincerity or dedication at all (n=3). Nor do I question the sincerity or dedication of any other non-trad in the world. Obviously it is impossible to predict who will do what with their MD, just some things for all of us to think about.

Now I'm going to go put on a flame-******ant suit and make a sign that says "I ain't no troll."

 

[Compozine]

You are all entitled to your opinions. And I am not critisizing non trads who did not have the means to enter medical school right away...this is what I mean by people getting their backs up over nothing. I am only critisizing the people who a) partied through college and decided to do it all over again (and there are a ton of em on this site, just read the "what are my chances threads"), or b) decided to go into medicine because they were bored, and being a doctor "seemed cool." I don't believe in the way these post bac programs are now being used as "safety nets." In medicine, you can't be careless with a patient, and screw up...you are dealing with life and death. When it comes to your time in college, I think you should have to get it right the first time. Again...just my opinion.

 

[LUBDUBB]

I think the world has become a very PC place. Don't get me wrong, I think it is wonderful that women and minorities are entering medicine in growing numbers. But I think there is this emphasis now on "don't worry, you can still be a doctor" mentality. It used to be that your performance in college was a direct indicator of how you would handle medical school. I just don't understand why now, with competition fiercer than ever, we have this "no problem if you have a low GPA" attitude. These post bac programs make it so people can go do the premed program all over again if they didn't do well the first time. What about the people who did well with only one shot?

I also have to wonder if these people who insist they "need time to figure out if medicine is really what they want to do" really should be choosing medicine. Medicine is a calling, and I don't think you should have to work 10 years at some other unrelated job to figure out that you actually want to be a doctor. I mean, at one of my interviews there was a 47 year old woman who had had five prior carreers (including concert violinist, engineer, accountant, bussiness owner, and teacher), and then just woke up one day and said, "hey, I think I will give medicine a try." I don't know, the seats in med school are all precious, and I don't think it is right to give them away to a person who is just doing it to add another career to the list.

Becoming a physician is nothing special. Look around you there are millions of them. Now, BEING a physician is totally different. An acceptance out of undergrad doesn't give anyone the right to judge/question other ppl's motivations. But since we're on that topic, how do you feel about those students who at such a young age know they want to be a dr, they do so well in their first 2 yrs of undergrad, and then are admitted thru early programs to med school without taking the mcat?

My point is, we all have our notions of what's fair and what's not fair, but the bottom line is: everyone who wants to go to med school will eventually go - but it's how you perform as a physician that really matters.

As far as interviews, I've also seen mostly youngin's at my interviews, most of the time, me (25) being the oldest one.

 

[nubbey24]

I am not judging who is worthy and who is unworthy. That is not my goal. I am just pointing out something that has become a real trend. I don't think it is a good thing that students can screw around in college, then do a one year post bac and be accepted into medical school. But that is just my opinion. I just don't understand why immedietly when people on here feel threatened they resort to posts like "what will you do when you don't get accepted?" or "you will make a bad doctor."

I have good stats, good ECs, had good interviews, and I got into two good schools. I am grateful because I think there is a certain amount of luck involved in the process, but I also worked very hard for four years (actually, since high school). I am not judging who deserves to get in and who does not, that is not my place.

I think you are making an over generalization that all non-trads screwed around during their undergrad. While this maybe true for some people, many of us are in an entirely different boat. I didn't go right away because I was interested in pursuing the research that I was doing at the time, and I am sure there are many other people in similar circumstances. Taking the attitude that you have right now and sterotyping non-trads is really setting yourself up for a lot of problems in the forseeable future.
That being said, I do see your point, and I can see how it is can be intimidating for undergrads to be expected to compete with some of the life experiences that some of the non-trads have gained, and in some ways this is sort of tilting the scales towards a higher standard and slightly unrealistic expectations for those applying right out of college. On that same note though, I would just encourage you to be careful in who and how you voice your opinion. PC is not neccesarily the right word for this judgement...polite and understanding might be better adjetives instead. Congrats on getting in to school though, that is awsome!!

 

[jbrice1639]

You are all entitled to your opinions. And I am not critisizing non trads who did not have the means to enter medical school right away...this is what I mean by people getting their backs up over nothing. I am only critisizing the people who a) partied through college and decided to do it all over again (and there are a ton of em on this site, just read the "what are my chances threads"), or b) decided to go into medicine because they were bored, and being a doctor "seemed cool." I don't believe in the way these post bac programs are now being used as "safety nets." In medicine, you can't be careless with a patient, and screw up...you are dealing with life and death. When it comes to your time in college, I think you should have to get it right the first time. Again...just my opinion.

as one who partied through college and went back and worked hard to get into med school (and oddly enough, ended up with two acceptances and a waitlist, just like you...except that i got accepted to my top choice instead of waitlisted) i appreciate your criticism.

i think your "get it right the first time" mentality is pointless, though. how do my grades or mentality as an 18-year-old have any impact on who i am now or how i will treat a patient? personally, i don't see a downside to someone who had the discipline to return to the field after time away for whatever reason instead of someone who just "got it right the first time."

also not sure why you sound so bitter about the whole thing since you got accepted. you got in. you proved you were good enough. what do you care whether your classmates were hardcore pre-meds at age 18 or found themselves later in life?

 

[NapeSpikes]

I concur with noelleruckman and jbrice about seeing mostly "traditional" applicants, roughly 80%, at my interviews.

Same here. At 27, I was either the oldest or the second oldest (usually out of 12-15 people) on all five of my interviews.

I think it's a bit condescending to believe that trads who have wanted to be doctors all their lives are somehow inherently more suited for medicine than us late(r) bloomers.

 

[8744]

...Not stated in a very PC way but there are elements of truth to this. From a completely rational and statistical standpoint there is some degree of madness in admitting people who are 35+ to med school over those who are 25...

I understand what you're saying, and I'm not mad, at least not mad enough to get up out of my wheelchair and bludgeon you with my cane, but then by your logic we should exclude people who want to get law degrees after medical school or those who want to land a lucrative specialty, work for ten years, and then retire.

You can't organize life that way.

Also, I don't have a "passion for helping people." It's just a job. I like people and enjoy helping them but I also like to go home on time and don't generally worry about my patients when I am off. (Because that's why we have "signout.") In other words, I don't lay awake at night dreading the results of Mr. Smith's colonoscopy. You won't either.

 

[TCIrish03]

I think you are making an over generalization that all non-trads screwed around during their undergrad. While this maybe true for some people, many of us are in an entirely different boat. I didn't go right away because I was interested in pursuing the research that I was doing at the time, and I am sure there are many other people in similar circumstances. Taking the attitude that you have right now and sterotyping non-trads is really setting yourself up for a lot of problems in the forseeable future.
That being said, I do see your point, and I can see how it is can be intimidating for undergrads to be expected to compete with some of the life experiences that some of the non-trads have gained, and in some ways this is sort of tilting the scales towards a higher standard and slightly unrealistic expectations for those applying right out of college. On that same note though, I would just encourage you to be careful in who and how you voice your opinion. PC is not neccesarily the right word for this judgement...polite and understanding might be better adjetives instead. Congrats on getting in to school though, that is awsome!!

That's a pretty big brush you are painting with.

Not every non-trad is a dirty hippie who slacked off in college. Some busted their ass and still got average-sub par grades. Others don't have mommy and daddy floating the bill and have to get some work experience under their belt first. And some people much like yourself (uh oh) with that mentality actually burn out and need to take some time off before reloading for medical school.

About the only thing I agree with what you said is that being a doctor is a vocation, much like being a priest, rabbi, etc. And when determining your vocation, sometimes it takes alot of thought, prayer and discernment to find yourself, to determine what your talents are and how they can best be applied to your life serving others. Wisdom is supposed to come with maturity, and I would much rather be served by a 35 year old student who took a while, but is fully committed, as opposed to someone who their whole life did nothing except focus on just "getting into" medical school, then entering their practice and realizing they hate it, only to have it reflect on their patients.

Lastly, I hope your patients' families and your insurance carrier are more forgiving of you when you make your first mistake (I don't know a doctor who hasn't), than you are of non-traditional students.

 

[8744]

....I also have to wonder if these people who insist they "need time to figure out if medicine is really what they want to do" really should be choosing medicine. Medicine is a calling...

No no no. It is not a calling. It is a job. It's a good job for the most part and a rewarding one both professionally and financially. It is a calling for you..now..but medical school and residency will disabuse you of that notion.

 

[mjc48]

if you've never considered another career, or another life, then how do you know you really want to be a doctor. personally, i don't give much credence to the decisions of a five year old, and i don't see how the concept of "a calling" has anything to do with the time in your life you decide to pursue medicine.

someday, when life finds you confronted with something you can't handle, you'll understand what humility is.

 

[SeventhSon]

while i disagree that it's hard to find traditional applicants, i do agree that non-traditional applicants are becoming a bigger share of the applicant pool. (I define non-trad as someone who was in another career before medicine pretty much).

Non-trads tend to have a slight edge because they've had more time to put things in perspective out of college and their PS's are more convincing. (as an aside, i think the PS is complete garbage and you shouldn't have to have sob story to justify your desire to be a doctor, but i digress)

 

[jbrice1639]

if you've never considered another career, or another life, then how do you know you really want to be a doctor. personally, i don't give much credence to the decisions of a five year old, and i don't see how the concept of "a calling" has anything to do with the time in your life you decide to pursue medicine.

someday, when life finds you confronted with something you can't handle, you'll understand what humility is.

 

[ShyRem]

Ok. I had a long post but it became a "non-trad rah rah". Let me sum up: Went to college at 16, got depressed, failed every class spring sophomore year. Left. Went back 20 years later - I had two young children, a husband, and I had just lost my job as a paramedic due to injury. I was definitely the oldest at my interviews. But I'm not dead yet, and I've been in medicine now for 15 years. Did I always want to go back? YES. Was it feasible for me to go back with two small children? Well, we didn't want to have daycare, there was no family around to help us out, and my husband works very odd hours with call-in. So... while feasible, it wasn't right for us at the time. There are women who take time off later in their career to have children - I did that at the beginning.

Did I think I would get preferential treatment due to my age and experience? No. But I certainly didn't expect to have four schools tell me I was "outside the normal age range for med school applicants" either when I asked why I was rejected without interview. Judge me on my merits, but don't put me down because of my experience and age either. I stand by my signature below. And I've learned a whole lot of good judgment in my years.

 

[ND2005]

I've been trying to write out a long post enumerating your many many errors, misconceptions, and sweeping generalizations. I decided it wasn't worth it, b/c most of them have been pointed out already and you don't seem to have any interest in listening.

But suffice it to say you are wrong/immature/ill-informed on just about everything you've said in this thread.

 

[Compozine]

as one who partied through college and went back and worked hard to get into med school (and oddly enough, ended up with two acceptances and a waitlist, just like you...except that i got accepted to my top choice instead of waitlisted) i appreciate your criticism.

So your top choice was Stritch....congrats. However, this little stab is pretty pointless because my top choice where I am waitlisted is a top 10 school. Please don't resort to childish insults...

 

[ND2005]

So your top choice was Stritch....congrats. However, this little stab is pretty pointless because my top choice where I am waitlisted is a top 10 school. Please don't resort to childish insults...

And you just managed to be an even bigger dick. Congrats.

 

[jbrice1639]

So your top choice was Stritch....congrats. However, this little stab is pretty pointless because my top choice where I am waitlisted is a top 10 school. Please don't resort to childish insults...

good luck with that. and i'm sure plenty of people are now laughing at you calling someone else childish.

 

[GoJoeyMojo]

I am not critisizing the non traditionals, I am just curious why that have actually become the norm.

For someone with no intention of criticizing non-trads, you've done a pretty good job of doing the opposite. Your arguments consist of inaccurate generalizations and petty childish insults, all delivered with an abrasive attitude. But I guess you've got it all figured out.

 

[QuikClot]

All I am getting off this thread, with its various generalizations, rationalizations, and justifications, is a strong scent of fear, mostly from the 22-year-olds who don't want to compete with non-traditional students. As you can dress this up as "they should have known" or "we're going to work longer" or whatever you like, but, bottom line, it's just you complaining about the level of competition you have to face.

The final answer to "Why are they there?" is simply; the medical schools want them there. Med schools have decided that there are more predictors of a future physican's performance than grades, MCAT, and interview. This is an intimidating thing to the youngn's, because while old people can study hard and ace the MCAT, they cannot "ace" life experience, cannot suddenly pull a successful career out of the hat, or an advanced degree, etc.

Some people are going to call this "political correctness," but frankly, having worked in the healthcare system for many years, I can tell you that the skills necessary to be a good physican have little to do with the skills necessary to get a 4.0 or a stellar MCAT score. Smart is good; smart is necessary. But it is not the be-all and end-all, so say I and so say the AdComs.

 

[registered user]

And you just managed to be an even bigger dick. Congrats.

Ha Ha!

 

[NapeSpikes]

All I am getting off this thread, with its various generalizations, rationalizations, and justifications, is a strong scent of fear, mostly from the 22-year-olds who don't want to compete with non-traditional students. As you can dress this up as "they should have known" or "we're going to work longer" or whatever you like, but, bottom line, it's just you complaining about the level of competition you have to face.

The final answer to "Why are they there?" is simply; the medical schools want them there. Med schools have decided that there are more predictors of a future physican's performance than grades, MCAT, and interview. This is an intimidating thing to the youngn's, because while old people can study hard and ace the MCAT, they cannot "ace" life experience, cannot suddenly pull a successful career out of the hat, or an advanced degree, etc.

Some people are going to call this "political correctness," but frankly, having worked in the healthcare system for many years, I can tell you that the skills necessary to be a good physican have little to do with the skills necessary to get a 4.0 or a stellar MCAT score. Smart is good; smart is necessary. But it is not the be-all and end-all, so say I and so say the AdComs.

 

[twofish]

A lot of people has to work after college due to various reasons even though they might have wanted to go to med school for a while, such as to support family, to pay back student loan, or just to get a experience in a working environment. After a few years of working, they decide it's time to embark on the med school route. I think it's a personal choice. Frankly, I think for a lot of people, doing the non-traditional route gives them some real world working experience, and that helps to make them to better understand and appreciate the medical field down the road.

I think the world has become a very PC place. Don't get me wrong, I think it is wonderful that women and minorities are entering medicine in growing numbers. But I think there is this emphasis now on "don't worry, you can still be a doctor" mentality. It used to be that your performance in college was a direct indicator of how you would handle medical school. I just don't understand why now, with competition fiercer than ever, we have this "no problem if you have a low GPA" attitude. These post bac programs make it so people can go do the premed program all over again if they didn't do well the first time. What about the people who did well with only one shot?

I also have to wonder if these people who insist they "need time to figure out if medicine is really what they want to do" really should be choosing medicine. Medicine is a calling, and I don't think you should have to work 10 years at some other unrelated job to figure out that you actually want to be a doctor. I mean, at one of my interviews there was a 47 year old woman who had had five prior carreers (including concert violinist, engineer, accountant, bussiness owner, and teacher), and then just woke up one day and said, "hey, I think I will give medicine a try." I don't know, the seats in med school are all precious, and I don't think it is right to give them away to a person who is just doing it to add another career to the list.

 

[LizzyM]

Med schools have decided that there are more predictors of a future physican's performance than grades, MCAT, and interview

and youth!

 

[GoJoeyMojo]

and youth!

Thank goodness!!

 

[registered user]

and youth!

Oh Lizzy, why aren't more adcom members of your mind?!

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

From a completely rational and statistical standpoint there is some degree of madness in admitting people who are 35+ to med school over those who are 25.

The AAMC and the LCME both specifically prohibit age discrimination in admissions - not to mention quite a slew of federal regulations. This argument was fought and settled years ago. It still does happen that applicants are rejected for being outside the "normal age range" - but it's wrong.

I'll be starting medical school at 44 this Fall - as a second career I have dreamed of for over 10 years. I got in the same way anybody else did - by working my tail off, getting the pre-req grades, and getting a competitive MCAT. Do adcoms give "slack" for students taking the MCAT who are in school full-time? I certainly doubt it. If they did, I'd like for them to see me - working 50 hours a week in a not-for-profit hospital (trying to make life better for the community, by the way, as I've done for over 20 years), taking pre-requisites at night, generally getting home at 10-11pm every weeknight, dragging my briefcase, my lab coat, and my backside. The last two years have been the most difficult of my life - but I did it by the same rules everybody else did. There is a "survival of the fittest" element to medical school admissions, and I accepted that from the beginning. The fact that I had a full-time professional job and took pre-reqs at night was my problem, not the adcom's. I certainly wasn't making up for poor grades, undergraduate or graduate.

Arguments about years of service are indefensible. Quite a number of physicians leave active practice after a certain number of years. Nobody can plan a life further ahead than 20 years. If the argument was valid, nobody would be given in-state tuition without signing a promise to practice in the state for 40 years.

I will finish an internal medicine residency when I am still 51 years old - I will practice for at least 15 years, perhaps 20 if my health holds out. There is nothing wrong with that. I will be practicing during the worst years of the physician shortage, which is already acute in primary care - then I'll retire. Yes, I did take a medical school seat from someone 20 years younger - through fair competition. I knew I was taking a seat from someone younger, and I did not make the decision lightly - I'm sure my adcom didn't, either. I hope my medical school classmates will benefit from my 20 years in healthcare administration, and I think they will. In practice, I will be taking care of the older members of my own baby boomer generation - people who I know and understand very well.

I hope that when I retire after 15 or 20 years in practice, my patients will be the ones to tell you that my medical school made the right decision in 2006.

 

[Flopotomist]

I think the view that "non-trad" is equal to slacker could not be farther from the truth. I certainly was not a slacker - I was non-trad because when I was 18 I didn't know what I wanted to do. I spent 10 years travelling the world, working overseas, doing research, exploring a few different careers, and THEN returning to complete some prereqs.

I had no problems on the application trail, and think I will be a stronger med. student BECAUSE I have seen more of the world than the average 22 year old.