Something I noticed at interviews...

[NY Musicologist]

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Nobody can plan a life further ahead than 20 years.

Nor can any of us guarantee that we'll be around long enough to carry out even the most short-range plans.

Congrats, Non-TradTulsa, and may your hard work (continue to) pay off.

 

[NontradICUdoc]

It is obvious that you harbor some resentment towards nonTrads. As a nonTrad who did not have direction in college at the begining but then found it I have to take serious offense with your comments because they are ignorant.

No I did not party too much, yes I had problems with my grades at the start, yes when I retook my classes and actually put my mind to it I did well, however by the time it was said and done, my GPA was in the trash. Then I go out in the real world and work. It was not until several years later while getting a Masters degree did I want to go into medicine again because I thought I had a chance.

Since you are a Trad, I can imagine that you have NO clue what it is like being a nontrad. Let me give you a run down of what a typical 24 hour day is like:

6am wake up
6:30 have that cup of coffee while preparing the baby's bottle and the school lunch
7:30 Take the kids to day care/school head to work
9-5 work
6pm-6:30pm dinner with family
7pm-9pm classes
9:30pm-12:30am homework
12:30-6am sleep

On top of that maintain a good GPA, study, write papers, spend quality time with your children, and spend quality time with your spouse. Oh yeah, being a NonTrad is certainly easier 🙄 that going to medical school right out of college.

Then you have to explain what changed between then and now that makes you a better applicant. Why did you choose medicine after a successful career making widgets? Why put your family through the financial strain and time strain that will be in your future?

Have you EVER had to figure out how to pay the bills while still in school? If you think being in debt after medical school is tough, try being in debt after you go to medical school and trying to put your own kids through college.

However, you are right about one thing, NonTrad DO have an advantage over you. Older patients will be more prone to talk to someone who has been there too as opposed to the 25 year old who treats them like babies.

 

[8744]

I think the view that "non-trad" is equal to slacker could not be farther from the truth. I certainly was not a slacker - I was non-trad because when I was 18 I didn't know what I wanted to do. I spent 10 years travelling the world, working overseas, doing research, exploring a few different careers, and THEN returning to complete some prereqs.

I had no problems on the application trail, and think I will be a stronger med. student BECAUSE I have seen more of the world than the average 22 year old.

For the record, I was a slacker when I was 18. That's how I ended up getting kicked out of college in 1983.

Kee-rist. Didn't any of you date girls, party, drink, or do anything when you were young other than devote all your energies to the single-mided pursuit of a future career?

I sure hope some of the people who have done this really like medicine because you may look around four years from now and say, "Man, this blows. I wish I had done something else."

 

[Avalanche21]

So your top choice was Stritch....congrats. However, this little stab is pretty pointless because my top choice where I am waitlisted is a top 10 school. Please don't resort to childish insults...

dude, settle down...a bit unnecessary. Besides, I'm assuming you're referring to USC (from one of your other posts), which is a good school, but not top 10...

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

Kee-rist. Didn't any of you date girls, party, drink, or do anything when you were young other than devote all your energies to the single-mided pursuit of a future career?

Gee, Panda, after I re-read my soapbox "I pulled myself up by my own bootstraps" rant, I realized that someone had finally goaded me into letting my rarely-seen conservative side show - I was hoping you'd like it.
Thanks, NY Musicologist, for the kind encouragement.

 

[noonday]

For the record, I was a slacker when I was 18. That's how I ended up getting kicked out of college in 1983.

Kee-rist. Didn't any of you date girls, party, drink, or do anything when you were young other than devote all your energies to the single-mided pursuit of a future career?

me. sort of. i was severely depressed for part of college, went home weekends and a summer to work crap jobs and help take care of dying family members, spent a lot of time drunk off my a$$, gettin' it on, going dancing, etc., and fell in love with a career that was not medicine -- geology -- which i thought was all like the field trips: camping, drinking, and hiking. lived and worked in europe for a while. went to grad school in geology, learned that i hated writing grants and was lukewarm on teaching, got my MS, and had no work. lived day to day for almost a year, piecemeal work, almost resorted to living in my car, was medically indigent with an acute condition that needed care, etc. i finally got a job. one that has nothing to do with camping, drinking, and hiking, and although i've never really dug it, i'm good at it. i started volunteering again, because i've always been big on community involvement, and ended up learning that my volunteer job should be my career and geology should be a hobby. then did the whole full time job, part time job (to pay for the classes), two volunteer gigs, and classes thing. was working 60+ hours and volunteering 20+ hours a week while studying for the MCAT, applying, etc.

i've had my fun. i've tried a lot of different jobs. and i've learned balance, and i have no regrets that i didn't do something i wanted or that i did something i shouldn't have. because i feel like i really have a sense of who i am that i never had when i was younger, although i thought i had it then...and i know how to live like an adult -- pay the bills, make do, understand how hard it is to do what you should, etc.

not ragging on trads. really. i just feel like i, personally, would have made a horrible doctor 10 years ago if i'd tried to go to med school then. and now, i think i will make a great doctor, partially because i grew up, and partially because i feel like i can empathize and relate to patients better...because patients are just people, with varied life experiences. better to be a great doctor for 10 years less of a career than an awful doctor who either mistreats patients or burns out. but that's me.

 

[jbrice1639]

dude, settle down...a bit unnecessary. Besides, I'm assuming you're referring to USC (from one of your other posts), which is a good school, but not top 10...

i don't even know if he was referring to any specific school...probably just trying to sound like a badass...i think he was just feeling a little "phallically inferior" after starting this thread and having no one agree with his little rant.

 

[eastsidaz]

It's impossible and unfair to describe the situation in such a way that all non-trads are either slackers who couldn't get it together in college or enlightened, experienced veterans of the game of life. I'm sure there are some of both.

The age/service issue resolves itself because we live in a market economy. Receiving medical training later on is disruptive to people with well-established lives, and the economic gain they will receive from becoming physicians is marginalized by the fact that they'll have less time to practice. Hence, you see a lot of non-trads who are 25-30, but far less who are in their 30s and beyond. Training a 26-year old isn't so awful for him OR society; they're only 4 years older than a traditional applicant. There's no use in bitching about what adcoms do because, like I said, the problem resolves itself. This is the same reason we don't have to mandate that people go in to fields in which there is a shortage--the market is self-correcting, so everyone can grow up believing that you can "be anything you want to be".

Where's Shredder when this thread needs his rationality?

 

[thatslife]

Most people applying to medical school are "nontraditional." When my father went to med school 35 years ago, virtually everyone in his class came right out of college. People knew by the time they were 18 or 19 that they wanted to be doctors, and they went straight through the premed program without taking time off afterwards, etc. There were no post-bacs to salvage a bad GPA, and nobody took a year off to "find themselves." Why is it that it is now actually difficult to find an applicant who applied straight out of college? Also, do medical schools recognize the difference between students who take the MCAT during a full college courseload, and those who take a year or two off just to study? I am not critisizing the non traditionals, I am just curious why that have actually become the norm.

Maybe they found that non-traditional students are better medical students. Perhaps they have found that non-trads are students who are focused and are sure they are doing this for the right reasons. But I am sure you thought of this in your well reasoned, well articulated argument. Really.

 

[Compozine]

dude, settle down...a bit unnecessary. Besides, I'm assuming you're referring to USC (from one of your other posts), which is a good school, but not top 10...

USC is my second choice...My top choice is Columbia, but I don't think I really have a shot there. And my response was only in reaction to the posters snotty remark that they had been accepted to their first choice (obviously an attempt to imply that they were superior). My point was, you don't know who you are talking to on these posts, and getting into Stritch (certainly admirable) is not the same as being waitlisted at an ivy.

 

[Compozine]

i don't even know if he was referring to any specific school...probably just trying to sound like a badass...i think he was just feeling a little "phallically inferior" after starting this thread and having no one agree with his little rant.

By No one, you mean all of you nontrads?

 

[GoJoeyMojo]

My point was, you don't know who you are talking to on these posts, and getting into Stritch (certainly admirable) is not the same as being waitlisted at an ivy.

Get over yourself. Seriously.

 

[jackieMD2007]

So your top choice was Stritch....congrats. However, this little stab is pretty pointless because my top choice where I am waitlisted is a top 10 school. Please don't resort to childish insults...

This is flat-out uncalled for.

You have a right to your opinion and to work out your thinking about touchy issues, but NOT to put down schools where other applicants have been accepted. 👎

 

[Compozine]

This is flat-out uncalled for.

You have a right to your opinion and to work out your thinking about touchy issues, but NOT to put down schools where other applicants have been accepted. 👎

And what did this poster do?

 

[LizzyM]

getting into Stritch (certainly admirable) is not the same as being waitlisted at an ivy.

You're right. Getting into Stritch means a shot at (and a very high likelihood of ) being an M.D. four years later.

A waitlist at an ivy, by itself, is nothing more than hope.

 

[jackieMD2007]

All I am getting off this thread, with its various generalizations, rationalizations, and justifications, is a strong scent of fear, mostly from the 22-year-olds who don't want to compete with non-traditional students. As you can dress this up as "they should have known" or "we're going to work longer" or whatever you like, but, bottom line, it's just you complaining about the level of competition you have to face.

The final answer to "Why are they there?" is simply; the medical schools want them there. Med schools have decided that there are more predictors of a future physican's performance than grades, MCAT, and interview. This is an intimidating thing to the youngn's, because while old people can study hard and ace the MCAT, they cannot "ace" life experience, cannot suddenly pull a successful career out of the hat, or an advanced degree, etc.

Some people are going to call this "political correctness," but frankly, having worked in the healthcare system for many years, I can tell you that the skills necessary to be a good physican have little to do with the skills necessary to get a 4.0 or a stellar MCAT score. Smart is good; smart is necessary. But it is not the be-all and end-all, so say I and so say the AdComs.

This is well done. 👍

 

[nubbey24]

That's a pretty big brush you are painting with.

Not every non-trad is a dirty hippie who slacked off in college. Some busted their ass and still got average-sub par grades. Others don't have mommy and daddy floating the bill and have to get some work experience under their belt first. And some people much like yourself (uh oh) with that mentality actually burn out and need to take some time off before reloading for medical school.

About the only thing I agree with what you said is that being a doctor is a vocation, much like being a priest, rabbi, etc. And when determining your vocation, sometimes it takes alot of thought, prayer and discernment to find yourself, to determine what your talents are and how they can best be applied to your life serving others. Wisdom is supposed to come with maturity, and I would much rather be served by a 35 year old student who took a while, but is fully committed, as opposed to someone who their whole life did nothing except focus on just "getting into" medical school, then entering their practice and realizing they hate it, only to have it reflect on their patients.

Lastly, I hope your patients' families and your insurance carrier are more forgiving of you when you make your first mistake (I don't know a doctor who hasn't), than you are of non-traditional students.

Next time, check to see the quote you are talking about.

 

[NY Musicologist]

getting into Stritch (certainly admirable) is not the same as being waitlisted at an ivy.

So now you're looking to pi$$ off not just all the nontrads, but also everyone who has been rejected from, or perhaps never cared to apply to, an ivy?! Good job.

This thread has gone beyond ridiculous. 🙄

 

[ND2005]

And what did this poster do?

Just to point out, you're making one of the classic newbie mistakes: rather than admit a mistake or back off a point, you keep doggedly posting and digging a hole. Do yourself a favor and stop now, before you get yourself banned.

 

[MollyMalone]

OK, everybody chill.

If this thread degenerates further, it's going to be closed.

 

[Compozine]

by itself

Key phrase. Look, I did not want to fight with you. Obviously this is a touchy issue because many of you are non trads. I intended this post to attact people my age who had noticed a similar trend, not to start a flame war with a bunch of people. You made a cheep shot comment about how you got into your first choice, "unlike me." What kind of response do you expect to get. I know everyone on this site right now will disagree with me because you are all older premeds. This thread turned to s@#t so fast!!!!

 

[noonday]

OK, everybody chill.

If this thread degenerates further, it's going to be closed.

chanting: mooolll-ly, mooolll-ly, mooolll-ly...

 

[ND2005]

Key phrase. Look, I did not want to fight with you. Obviously this is a touchy issue because many of you are non trads. I intended this post to attact people my age who had noticed a similar trend, not to start a flame war with a bunch of people. You made a cheep shot comment about how you got into your first choice, "unlike me." What kind of response do you expect to get. I know everyone on this site right now will disagree with me because you are all older premeds. This thread turned to s@#t so fast!!!!

I'm not an older pre-med. I'm 23. You don't have to be old to see that you're acting like an idiot.

 

[thatslife]

you seem so eager to take on others, but no reply to my message. curious.

 

[eastsidaz]

Key phrase. Look, I did not want to fight with you. Obviously this is a touchy issue because many of you are non trads. I intended this post to attact people my age who had noticed a similar trend, not to start a flame war with a bunch of people. You made a cheep shot comment about how you got into your first choice, "unlike me." What kind of response do you expect to get. I know everyone on this site right now will disagree with me because you are all older premeds. This thread turned to s@#t so fast!!!!

Interestingly, the way this thread has gone has proven your point--EVERYONE is a nontrad!!!

 

[DrBowtie]

OK, everybody chill.

If this thread degenerates further, it's going to be closed.

Oooh. 250,000 mg Extra Strength.

 

[eastsidaz]

I'm not an older pre-med. I'm 23. You don't have to be old to see that you're acting like an idiot.

Be fair to him. If you look at the original post, he wasn't badmouthing anyone, just making a point. He isn't even knocking the people with families and careers, he's knocking the people who slacked in college who went the post-bac route. I think my economic argument (see above) should be the final word on this.

 

[jackieMD2007]

I think the world has become a very PC place. Don't get me wrong, I think it is wonderful that women and minorities are entering medicine in growing numbers. But I think there is this emphasis now on "don't worry, you can still be a doctor" mentality. It used to be that your performance in college was a direct indicator of how you would handle medical school. I just don't understand why now, with competition fiercer than ever, we have this "no problem if you have a low GPA" attitude. These post bac programs make it so people can go do the premed program all over again if they didn't do well the first time. What about the people who did well with only one shot?

I also have to wonder if these people who insist they "need time to figure out if medicine is really what they want to do" really should be choosing medicine. Medicine is a calling, and I don't think you should have to work 10 years at some other unrelated job to figure out that you actually want to be a doctor. I mean, at one of my interviews there was a 47 year old woman who had had five prior carreers (including concert violinist, engineer, accountant, bussiness owner, and teacher), and then just woke up one day and said, "hey, I think I will give medicine a try." I don't know, the seats in med school are all precious, and I don't think it is right to give them away to a person who is just doing it to add another career to the list.

You knew exactly what you were doing. Don't say you didn't want to "start a fight" when you used "fighting words" to respond to others.

Don't even get me started on your comment about Ivy v. All other schools.

 

[ND2005]

Be fair to him. If you look at the original post, he wasn't badmouthing anyone, just making a point. He isn't even knocking the people with families and careers, he's knocking the people who slacked in college who went the post-bac route. I think my economic argument (see above) should be the final word on this.

I'm more basing my opinion on where he's gone since the original post.

 

[jbrice1639]

My point was, you don't know who you are talking to on these posts, and getting into Stritch (certainly admirable) is not the same as being waitlisted at an ivy.

you're right, getting into stritch results in becoming a doctor. getting waitlisted at an ivy...doesn't.

 

[Compozine]

Molly, do us all a favor and close this thread. I don't think anyone here wants to be banned, myself included. I admit this thread was a mistake. I had no idea how angry and defensive people get about this issue. peace out

 

[MollyMalone]

Closing at request of the OP.