CaliforniaBound

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Just wondering if anyone out there has any information about classes or special training that allopaths can obtain in regard to D.O. bone manipulations? i've already been accepted at an M.D. school but have always been interested in some of the unique practices that D.O.'s employ. :) Any info would be appreciated!
 

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To the best of my knowledge, there are classes available as sort-of continuing education units for Osteopathic Manipulation (OMM) for DO's and MD's alike. However, I would think that the breadth of tecnical skills and knowledge aquired during the several hours of OMM lab per week at a DO school, that lead to its usefullness in practical applications, would be difficult to obtain during a short, post-medschool course. Keep in mind that this is just my opinion, as I also somewhat think that after aquiring a medical education, whether it be MD or DO, you might be familiar enough with the body to understand manipulation easier, even when learned in a short period of time after medschool.
 

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Also, I should add that you might get more looks/ informed opinions on this in the Osteopathic forum for current DO students.
 

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CaliforniaBound said:
Just wondering if anyone out there has any information about classes or special training that allopaths can obtain in regard to D.O. bone manipulations? i've already been accepted at an M.D. school but have always been interested in some of the unique practices that D.O.'s employ. :) Any info would be appreciated!
There's no need for this in medical school. The vast majority of DO physicians do not use the OMM techniques because they either don't believe in it or it doesn't apply to their practice. If you really want training in it later, you can get it in residency, especially if you choose Ortho, PM&R, or perhaps FP.
 
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tlaurick

Neuronix said:
There's no need for this in medical school. The vast majority of DO physicians do not use the OMM techniques because they either don't believe in it or it doesn't apply to their practice. If you really want training in it later, you can get it in residency, especially if you choose Ortho, PM&R, or perhaps FP.

Wow, I'm not sure which DOs you have been talking to, but the vast majority of the one's I know use manipulation. In fact, if you look at sports medicine, DO ortho surgeons are starting to come in extremely high demand because of their ability to perform manipulation.

Anyways, as of right now the only place I know of that an allopathic physician can receive training in manipulation is in the military. I know that this training has begun or will soon begin at Naval Hospital Jacksonville, FL. I'm not sure about other locations.
 

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tlaurick said:
In fact, if you look at sports medicine, DO ortho surgeons are starting to come in extremely high demand because of their ability to perform manipulation.
That's what I was saying before--FP (with sports or other ortho slant), PM&R, Ortho docs could use OMM. If you're an allopathic practicioner who goes into one of these specialities, you'll get comparable training because it's a part of the specialty. If you know alot of DOs who do this, than you probably know alot who practice OMM.

For all those DOs who do general FP, IM, IM subspecialties, and others, I doubt many at all are using OMM.
 

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Neuronix said:
That's what I was saying before--FP (with sports or other ortho slant), PM&R, Ortho docs could use OMM. If you're an allopathic practicioner who goes into one of these specialities, you'll get comparable training because it's a part of the specialty. If you know alot of DOs who do this, than you probably know alot who practice OMM.

For all those DOs who do general FP, IM, IM subspecialties, and others, I doubt many at all are using OMM.
Actually, one of the most common specialties you'll find OMM used in is FP. This is because most of the OMM residencies are combined with family medicine, and patients seeking this care will go to a family practitioner.
 

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That's all well and good. I stand by my original statement--there's no need for a MD student to learn OMM unless they end up in a specialty where they might actually use it. Could you find the usefulness of OMM for an ophthomologist, for example? I know several DO FPs who think OMM is a crock and think the top DOs should stop trying to preach that their training is "different", because in the public's eye it could put them on par with NDs and the like.

This is not personal bias--my family doc for me and my father for years before I started med school was a DO. He also did not buy all that OMM stuff. I don't know a single DO who believes in it, though that's not to say there aren't some. Just calling it as I see it. Medical students and pre-meds who are not in the clinic are told alot of things that simply aren't true in the real world. You'll see what I mean when you get out there.
 

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Neuronix said:
That's all well and good. I stand by my original statement--there's no need for a MD student to learn OMM unless they end up in a specialty where they might actually use it. Could you find the usefulness of OMM for an ophthomologist, for example? I know several DO FPs who think OMM is a crock and think the top DOs should stop trying to preach that their training is "different", because in the public's eye it could put them on par with NDs and the like.

This is not personal bias--my family doc for me and my father for years before I started med school was a DO. He also did not buy all that OMM stuff. I don't know a single DO who believes in it, though that's not to say there aren't some. Just calling it as I see it. Medical students and pre-meds who are not in the clinic are told alot of things that simply aren't true in the real world. You'll see what I mean when you get out there.
1) The OP never asked if we think OMM is a crock, or if you think they should learn it. They just asked if they could.
2) I can tell you from experience that some of the techniques are useful, it helped my back pain a lot. If you don't believe the DO's, just ask some PT's and they will tell you that there are many clinically useful manual techniques.
 

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Neuronix said:
That's all well and good. I stand by my original statement--there's no need for a MD student to learn OMM unless they end up in a specialty where they might actually use it. Could you find the usefulness of OMM for an ophthomologist, for example? I know several DO FPs who think OMM is a crock and think the top DOs should stop trying to preach that their training is "different", because in the public's eye it could put them on par with NDs and the like.

This is not personal bias--my family doc for me and my father for years before I started med school was a DO. He also did not buy all that OMM stuff. I don't know a single DO who believes in it, though that's not to say there aren't some. Just calling it as I see it. Medical students and pre-meds who are not in the clinic are told alot of things that simply aren't true in the real world. You'll see what I mean when you get out there.
You must not know very many at all.
 

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OSUdoc08 said:
You must not know very many at all.
I was thinkling that too. Every FP, IM, and some of the DO surgeons I know use OMM at least occasionally. I am glad it is offered as CME because it is one thing I will truly miss going to an allopathic school.
 

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:laugh: Welcome to the basic science portion of med school. I suppose you also think that physicians also remember and use biochemistry and histology. Don't worry, the allopathic students are similarly miffed about alot of things.

Sorry to step on the usual flame war. I'm signing off of this thread.
 

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Neuronix said:
:laugh: Welcome to the basic science portion of med school. I suppose you also think that physicians also remember and use biochemistry and histology. Don't worry, the allopathic students are similarly miffed about alot of things.

Sorry to step on the usual flame war. I'm signing off of this thread.

I don't get it. What the hell are you talking about?

BTW, as an MS-2 do you have some secret knowledge about the way DO's practice medicine that the rest of us, some of whom worked in with MD's and DO's in medicine for many years before medical school, don't?
 

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medic170 said:
BTW, as an MS-2 do you have some secret knowledge about the way DO's practice medicine that the rest of us, some of whom worked in with MD's and DO's in medicine for many years before medical school, don't?
I worked with MD's and DO's before medical school also. I'm in my third clinical rotation right now, as we start clinical rotations during second year. It's a very different experience than anything I've had before. You begin to learn about how medicine is really practiced, as opposed to the theory behind it.

What was my point? What you think you need to know to practice medicine as an MS-1/MS-2 is very different from what residents and attendings use to practice medicine. I had a good sense of this thanks to my experience before entering med school, but I think my classmates are figuring it out finally as well.

I promised myself I'd sign out of this thread, and that's what I'm gonna do. If you think OMM is great, good for you. In another 5-8 years when you're an attending, go for it. My original point still stands that it's nothing you need to learn in medical school and that you can pick it up in residency if you're going to use it. The point that the op wasn't asking for that point is well taken.
 

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I'm sorry that neuronix is arguing based on personal anecdote, rather than on study, but he probably just doesn't have time/interest to go in and give you a more scientific statement. Go to pubmed, search for "osteopathic manipulation" and the results will set you free. There are studies that show that 50% of osteopathic physicians NEVER use osteopathic manipulation in their practice, and only about 15% claim to use it "often." In and of itself, this shows most osteopaths think it is bogus. If you then look at studies comparing osteopathic manipulation to placebo, you also see that the studies that have been done so far show osteopathic manipulation to have no more effect than placebo.

There is a big difference between the public's fetish for "natural" healing (hey, HIV, bubonic plague, tuberculosis are "natural," human life expectancy fifteen thousand years ago before modern science when everything was "natural" was 1/3 of what it is today, let's all go back to a more natural world because it's so wonderful) and any documented evidence that it has positive effects on healthcare outcomes.

I'm afraid OMM falls into much the same category as accupuncture and many herbal remedies, which is not to say that it's harmful or that it doesn't give people a sense of hope, but that honest people going into a field that is dominated on scientific principles shouldn't be intellectually deceiving themselves about its efficacy.
 

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WatchingWaiting said:
I'm sorry that neuronix is arguing based on personal anecdote, rather than on study, but he probably just doesn't have time/interest to go in and give you a more scientific statement. Go to pubmed, search for "osteopathic manipulation" and the results will set you free. There are studies that show that 50% of osteopathic physicians NEVER use osteopathic manipulation in their practice, and only about 15% claim to use it "often." In and of itself, this shows most osteopaths think it is bogus. If you then look at studies comparing osteopathic manipulation to placebo, you also see that the studies that have been done so far show osteopathic manipulation to have no more effect than placebo.

There is a big difference between the public's fetish for "natural" healing (hey, HIV, bubonic plague, tuberculosis are "natural," human life expectancy fifteen thousand years ago before modern science when everything was "natural" was 1/3 of what it is today, let's all go back to a more natural world because it's so wonderful) and any documented evidence that it has positive effects on healthcare outcomes.

I'm afraid OMM falls into much the same category as accupuncture and many herbal remedies, which is not to say that it's harmful or that it doesn't give people a sense of hope, but that honest people going into a field that is dominated on scientific principles shouldn't be intellectually deceiving themselves about its efficacy.
I think that if 50% do not use it, you can't extrapolate that they do not use it because they think it is bogus. Some do not have time, 35% are not even in primary care, so it does not apply, and so on.

Do you really believe that even just some of the methods are not useful. Have you ever had a massage, or been to a PT for muscle rehab?
 

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This thread seems to be heading towards that ever-present MD vs. DO debate and for once, i'd like to throw in my 2 cents. I, myself, would like to go to MD school (because of the field I'm interested in), but I have researched becoming a DO, and hold the DO mentality and practice in high regard. I've also had the opportunity to work with both MD's and DO's and have found a general consensus/opinion of the DO's THAT I HAVE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO WORK WITH (note: this means the opinion of the DO's that i've worked with, not the entire DO population). Because of the fact that most insurance companies don't allow time for OMM in patient treatment (or cover it in their plans), many DO's don't practice it. That in no way demonstrates they think it's bogus! Some DO's leave it out of their practice, some DO's schedule a day to do solely DO manipulation. Also, from what i've seen (again an INDIVIDUAL'S OPINION), the OMM tends to be very helpful. The fact of the matter is still that they retain the knowledge and ability to perform OMM if they'd like to.

That being said, I have a couple of friends finishing DO school and they have found that they have an edge in MD residency interviews because of their knowledge of OMM. Yes, these people have been interviewing for MD residencies where OMM would be used more frequently, but it brings up the idea that MD and DO residencies don't find the practice of OMM bogus!!

I think that any MD interested in OMM should be able to pursue that interest to whatever extent they'd like to. I also agree with the above poster who stated that a short MD course in OMM is not enough time to learn enough for adequate treatment using OMM.

While i think allopathic schools would provide me greater opportunities for residency down the line, i would have no problem training as a DO. In the end both doctors are capable of promoting the health of individuals and that's the main point of medicine, is it not?
 

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LT2 said:
Because of the fact that most insurance companies don't allow time for OMM in patient treatment (or cover it in their plans), many DO's don't practice it.
OMM is billable as a procedure and has CPT codes (based on how many body regions are treated). I haven't heard of any insurance companies not covering OMM, but perhaps that is a regional thing.
 
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LT2 said:
In the end both doctors are capable of promoting the health of individuals and that's the main point of medicine, is it not?

:) Wow...you all have been so helpful! My opinion is that doctors should avail themselves of all the infomation that they can. The more practices and tecniques that a doctor can perform means perhaps more lives being saved! After shadowing a D.O. physician who performed OMM on a daily basis it was apparent to me that great benefit can be derived from it's use. The whole point of being a doctor is to save people's lives and to promote good health! Having a broad based practice would only enhance your career---not hinder it!