Specialize for more MONEY?

[cuspidarrow]

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Those of you who're studying specialty or planning to specialize, what are your reasons? If you're doing it to make more money, do they really make more than general dentists, or are you just compensating for the extra 2 or 3 years of tuition you've paid?

I'm interested in pediatric dentistry because I LOVE working with children, but I've heard that pedo's don't make as much as general dentists... any comments?

 

[45540]

boooo for more money

 

[Zurik5]

Do what you love, don't worry about the money. Pedos make plenty, trust me.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

Those of you who're studying specialty or planning to specialize, what are your reasons? If you're doing it to make more money, do they really make more than general dentists, or are you just compensating for the extra 2 or 3 years of tuition you've paid?

I'm interested in pediatric dentistry because I LOVE working with children, but I've heard that pedo's don't make as much as general dentists... any comments?

Hey cuspid...Im a fellow pedo hopeful as well!!! Pedos on average make more than GPs because (a) they can charge insurance companies higher rates and (b) there is a HUGE shortage of pedodontists anywhere in the world

Anyways, the reason I want to go into pedo is not for the money. I plan on subsidizing my income by working with children on Medicaid parttime, so my income is gonna take a blow.

But just like you, I love working with kids and cant imagine myself doing anything else. Even if I was a GP, I would gear my office to see a high majority of children, but I wouldnt be able to advertise or tell people that I was a pediatric dentist. Thats the main reason I want to specialize...to be able to advertise myself as something that Im gonna be anyways....a pediatric dentist.

Also, I want to be involved with the American Association of Pediatric Dentists so I can be surrounded by people like yourself who share the same interests in children. But damn....that secret club is sure getting harder to be a part of these days!!! 😛

But keep in mind that pedo is different than any other speciality, cause it takes a certain type of person to do it. Im sure peoples interest in going into other specialities is solely money/prestige driven (99% of the time).....

 

[toofache32]

Specialize for more MONEY?

...and chicks...

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

or are you just compensating for the extra 2 or 3 years of tuition you've paid?

One more thing cuspid.....most pedo residencies are hospital based, so you dont pay tuition, but GET PAID a stipend of usually $35k. They are usually 2 years long.

Here is a link where you can see all the pedo residencies in the country, and all the information about each one, including whether its tuition or stipend, what their focus is on, duration, etc.

http://www.aapd.org/training/

 

[Jediwendell]

Pediatric dentists in general get paid more than general dentists but it really depends on where you're practicing, etc, just like any other area of dentistry. Most insurance companies pay on a higher scale for specialists and we can see a large patient load during the day since or time spent on Recalls is much quicker and doing a SSC takes no time at all. Plus if you are fortunate enough to go to the OR you can bring in a chunk of change there. It's all about volume.
Most Peds residencies pay you but will also have a small tuition, especially if it is a masters level program. A lot of the university only residencies pay because you still will be taking call. The hospital based or joint residencies pay more of course because of money from the hospital. I think the stipend at Kentucky's program is in the low $40's.

BTW- I am Jedi's wife, a full fledged pediatric dentist, if anyone has any questions to throw my way. I was yelled at once before for not making this clear!

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

Pediatric dentists in general get paid more than general dentists but it really depends on where you're practicing, etc, just like any other area of dentistry. Most insurance companies pay on a higher scale for specialists and we can see a large patient load during the day since or time spent on Recalls is much quicker and doing a SSC takes no time at all. Plus if you are fortunate enough to go to the OR you can bring in a chunk of change there. It's all about volume.
Most Peds residencies pay you but will also have a small tuition, especially if it is a masters level program. A lot of the university only residencies pay because you still will be taking call. The hospital based or joint residencies pay more of course because of money from the hospital. I think the stipend at Kentucky's program is in the low $40's.

BTW- I am Jedi's wife, a full fledged pediatric dentist, if anyone has any questions to throw my way. I was yelled at once before for not making this clear!

Which programs are at the masters level??

Also, when did you do your residency and do u know that it takes to get into a residency these days? Ive heard that everyone get an interview and its really the interview that is going to be the deciding factor.

 

[Jediwendell]

Which programs are at the masters level??

Also, when did you do your residency and do u know that it takes to get into a residency these days? Ive heard that everyone get an interview and its really the interview that is going to be the deciding factor.

There are different types of Master's programs- some require everyone to get one and some say it's "optional." The ones I can think of off-hand: UNC (3 years, Masters required), Baylor (option), UCSF (option), UAB (option), USC (option), U Conn (option), Iowa (option), Indiana (option). If you get your Master's it is usually at least 4 moths to a year extra. The AAPD website has a list of all the programs and what they offer.

http://www.aapd.org/training/

I graduated from Baylor in 2003. When I was there most of the candidates we interviewed had Part I scores in the low 90's and were in the top 1/3 of their class. We even had a #1 with 99 on Part I. That being sad, Baylor is a very competitive program. Pedo has become a lot more competitive than when I applied way back in 2001! Not all programs want you to have 90+, but It would help.
I had several friends in dental school and students I taught in residency who didn't get interviews because they weren't competitive enough. Also a lot who got one or two interviews but didn't match. I am not trying to make it out too be as competitive as Ortho or OMFS but the days of pedo being the "easy" residency to get in are long gone. Just make sure you do well in school and study for Part I. And yes, the interview is a big deal. We had many people say stupid things and get dropped to the very bottom of the list or not ranked at all. So yeah, the interview is important but they don't interview everyone who applies. My last year at Baylor we had 100 applicants and we interview 25-30 for 8 spots

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

There are different types of Master's programs- some require everyone to get one and some say it's "optional." The ones I can think of off-hand: UNC (3 years, Masters required), Baylor (option), UCSF (option), UAB (option), USC (option), U Conn (option), Iowa (option), Indiana (option). If you get your Master's it is usually at least 4 moths to a year extra. The AAPD website has a list of all the programs and what they offer.

http://www.aapd.org/training/

I graduated from Baylor in 2003. When I was there most of the candidates we interviewed had Part I scores in the low 90's and were in the top 1/3 of their class. We even had a #1 with 99 on Part I. That being sad, Baylor is a very competitive program. Pedo has become a lot more competitive than when I applied way back in 2001! Not all programs want you to have 90+, but It would help.
I had several friends in dental school and students I taught in residency who didn't get interviews because they weren't competitive enough. Also a lot who got one or two interviews but didn't match. I am not trying to make it out too be as competitive as Ortho or OMFS but the days of pedo being the "easy" residency to get in are long gone. Just make sure you do well in school and study for Part I. And yes, the interview is a big deal. We had many people say stupid things and get dropped to the very bottom of the list or not ranked at all. So yeah, the interview is important but they don't interview everyone who applies. My last year at Baylor we had 100 applicants and we interview 25-30 for 8 spots

Ouch...thats harsh! Those stats are way higher than what Ive been hearing from others! The problem Im gonna have when applying is with my academics...I dont know if I can realistically get a part I score of 90+....I will probably get a score b/w 85-88 trying my best and a class rank of maybe 50/125.

Since Im also doing a MPH focusing on pediatric dental public health overseas and will have a lot of dental experience with children in developing countries, do u think that might help me and perhaps overshadow my poor academics??

 

[ItsGavinC]

One more thing cuspid.....most pedo residencies are hospital based, so you dont pay tuition, but GET PAID a stipend of usually $35k. They are usually 2 years long.

Nearly all programs do NOT pay residents, as a result of funding cuts to GME.

Pedos make more than general dentists, though.

 

[Jediwendell]

Ouch...thats harsh! Those stats are way higher than what Ive been hearing from others! The problem Im gonna have when applying is with my academics...I dont know if I can realistically get a part I score of 90+....I will probably get a score b/w 85-88 trying my best and a class rank of maybe 50/125.

Since Im also doing a MPH focusing on pediatric dental public health overseas and will have a lot of dental experience with children in developing countries, do u think that might help me and perhaps overshadow my poor academics??

Experience is always a plus. I had done a lot and also did a GPR while waiting for my husband to finish. Most of the places I interviewed at look highly on experience. I think if you score in the high 80's you will be fine, especially with good experience and good letters of reccomendation. Already having a Master's will get you a 2nd look everytime, I'd think. Like I said too, Baylor is a tough program to get in to, and not all schools are as bad. I was just stressing that if you got 90+ on Boards you would be a really strong candidate.

 

[Jediwendell]

Nearly all programs do NOT pay residents, as a result of funding cuts to GME.

Pedos make more than general dentists, though.

Most hospital based programs still pay, but sone stipends are in the high 10's to low 20's becasue of cuts to GME.
The University only based programs typically don't pay and you have to pay tuition.
At the joint hospital/university programs it's usually both stipend and tuition.
Most of my friends who did pedo, myself included were paid in the low 30's

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

Experience is always a plus. I had done a lot and also did a GPR while waiting for my husband to finish. Most of the places I interviewed at look highly on experience. I think if you score in the high 80's you will be fine, especially with good experience and good letters of reccomendation. Already having a Master's will get you a 2nd look everytime, I'd think. Like I said too, Baylor is a tough program to get in to, and not all schools are as bad. I was just stressing that if you got 90+ on Boards you would be a really strong candidate.

Do you know of any pedo residencies that deal with public health with children?

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

Also, does being male help me or make no difference? Because I know of a guy that is in his last year of his pedo residency and got in with a low 80 part I score and a 3.1 GPA, but he is male and African-American. I just thought his race and sex might be a reason he got in, because his scores are much lower than Ive seen....

 

[uicd2]

Jedi,

If you have a masters degree already, and go to a Pedo program that requires a masters (as part of the Pedo curriculum), do they make you get a 2nd masters degree?

Also, does being male help me or make no difference? Because I know of a guy that is in his last year of his pedo residency and got in with a low 80 part I score and a 3.1 GPA, but he is male and African-American. I just thought his race and sex might be a reason he got in, because his scores are much lower than Ive seen....

 

[Bruxomaniac]

Since we are on pediatric dentistry, I have a few questions. How much orthodontics do they do now a days. I went to a pediatric dentist growing up and he did EVERYTHING. He did my braces, wisdom teeth, etc. Most of the reading I've done on pediatric dentistry says that they don't do much of that anymore. Is that true?

P.S. Jediwendell, I really appreciate your posts. You have a lot of knowledge about this profession. I actually have several OMS questions to ask you one of these days.

 

[Jediwendell]

OK, here we go!
As for Peds doing ortho, I think it really depends on if you like it and if you did a lot during your resedency or do CE in it. Most guys I know do very little because we are so busy just doing the day to day stuff. As for Wizzies, I'm kinda scared of anyone but OMS guys doing them if they are impacted, and don't know any peds people who don't refer them out. Like I said, we pretty much do bread and butter pedo. I take out impacted mesiodens though.

If you already have a Master's and you go to a Master's option program you wouldn't be required to get one, but if you went to UNC were everyone gets one you would get to get a 2nd one! oh boy! So I would reccomend not if you already have one. Most programs are master's option so it wouldn't matter.

As for being male, I don't think sex plays any role. Pedo has always been a male dominated specialty until recently. I think with a low 80's and a 3.1 you can still get in someplace, but I would rather go in with better stats to give myself better odds. It's like most specialties, the better you do in school and the better your application is (typically) the more interviews you will get.

I can't give you names of any residencies that are "public health residencies" but you may be able to find out more on the AAPD site I listed above. Most people I know who do public health are paid their stipend by public health during residency, but I think that's pretty rare unless you already have been working in public health before you start and you're going to go back when you finish.

As for the Oral surgery questions I would PM this address since I'm Jedi's wife just posting under his name since I really don't post ever! I'm just trying to be helpful since I have been in your shoes before and would have loved the advice from someone actually in the field.

 

[uicd2]

any idea why some residencies require you to get a MS in the first place?

the degree is totally useless for the majority of residents, because they all want to go into private practice anyways.

the benefits of an MS are at best minimal IMO.

OK, here we go!

If you already have a Master's and you go to a Master's option program you wouldn't be required to get one, but if you went to UNC were everyone gets one you would get to get a 2nd one! oh boy! So I would reccomend not if you already have one. Most programs are master's option so it wouldn't matter.
.

 

[Jediwendell]

any idea why some residencies require you to get a MS in the first place?

the degree is totally useless for the majority of residents, because they all want to go into private practice anyways.

the benefits of an MS are at best minimal IMO.

The people I know who have gotten a Master's during pedo have done it for 2 reasons: they want to do academics or they want it for their own personal gratification. That's why most programs offer it as an option, not a requirement. The rare schools that require it are typically strong research schools.
It's the same with Ortho, most people don't need a Master's but most programs are switching to Master's.

 

[uicd2]

does an MS qualify you to go into academics?

The people I know who have gotten a Master's during pedo have done it for 2 reasons: they want to do academics or they want it for their own personal gratification. That's why most programs offer it as an option, not a requirement. The rare schools that require it are typically strong research schools.
It's the same with Ortho, most people don't need a Master's but most programs are switching to Master's.

😎 😀

 

[Jediwendell]

does an MS qualify you to go into academics?

i had always thought a PhD is almost mandatory for that. but with the nationwide shortage of dental faculty, perhaps they (schools) won't be so picky...?

it'd be nice to know my MS is all that's needed. my dream is to teach at UoP when i retire, but i'm too lazy to get a PhD. =)


😎 😀

anymore a PhD is not necessary to do Pedo academics, and I'm assuming you don't need it for other specialties. a MS should get you a job just fine, from what I understand. Because of shortages everyone is looking for good faculty, I even know places who would take you without one if you were Board Certified (which anymore I think is more important). I think if you want to teach you just have to make sure you go to a residency where you get experience teaching.

 

[cuspidarrow]

Jedi, thank you so much for all your helpful posts..
I know from working at a dental office for a year that I loved working with kids, but am not 100% sure that this is something I definitely want to do. I'm accepted to Columbia, MCG and waiting to hear from Upenn. From interviewing at MCG (georgia state school), only 3 or 4 people go on to specialize, but majority of Columbia or penn grads go on to specialize.

So, my dilemma is this. If I know for SURE that I want to specialize, I will lean more toward columbia or upenn and pay extra $100,000 in tuition, but if I decided to go to MCG for tuition reasons, I might end up with a high chance of not getting into residency. Also, if I went to Columbia and decided not to specialize, there's a very big possibility that I will do another year of GPR since thier focus is not so clinical-based.

Any advice anyone? Also are there any particular schools known for their pedo programs?

 

[uicd2]

The match rate for Pedo at Upenn was pretty bad last year.

Jedi, thank you so much for all your helpful posts..
I know from working at a dental office for a year that I loved working with kids, but am not 100% sure that this is something I definitely want to do. I'm accepted to Columbia, MCG and waiting to hear from Upenn. From interviewing at MCG (georgia state school), only 3 or 4 people go on to specialize, but majority of Columbia or penn grads go on to specialize.

So, my dilemma is this. If I know for SURE that I want to specialize, I will lean more toward columbia or upenn and pay extra $100,000 in tuition, but if I decided to go to MCG for tuition reasons, I might end up with a high chance of not getting into residency. Also, if I went to Columbia and decided not to specialize, there's a very big possibility that I will do another year of GPR since thier focus is not so clinical-based.

Any advice anyone? Also are there any particular schools known for their pedo programs?

 

[Jediwendell]

Jedi, thank you so much for all your helpful posts..
I know from working at a dental office for a year that I loved working with kids, but am not 100% sure that this is something I definitely want to do. I'm accepted to Columbia, MCG and waiting to hear from Upenn. From interviewing at MCG (georgia state school), only 3 or 4 people go on to specialize, but majority of Columbia or penn grads go on to specialize.

So, my dilemma is this. If I know for SURE that I want to specialize, I will lean more toward columbia or upenn and pay extra $100,000 in tuition, but if I decided to go to MCG for tuition reasons, I might end up with a high chance of not getting into residency. Also, if I went to Columbia and decided not to specialize, there's a very big possibility that I will do another year of GPR since thier focus is not so clinical-based.

Any advice anyone? Also are there any particular schools known for their pedo programs?

IF you think you want to pedo I don't think it reallly matters where you go to school, it matters what you do while you are in school. Honestly, I would say go to MCG if you liked the faculty and the facilities, cause in the end, $100,000 is a lot of money. But, if you like Columbia better go there, but not because you think it will make you look better applying for specialties.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

IF you think you want to pedo I don't think it reallly matters where you go to school, it matters what you do while you are in school. Honestly, I would say go to MCG if you liked the faculty and the facilities, cause in the end, $100,000 is a lot of money. But, if you like Columbia better go there, but not because you think it will make you look better applying for specialties.

Good advice...just because people from MCG dont specialize doesnt have to do with the school....perhaps the students at MCG just wanna do general dentistry and dont apply...doesnt mean the school is bad. I would try and get statistics to see how many people from MCG apply versus how many get accepted. If 4-5 people go on to specialize but only 6-7 apply, those are pretty good stats! All u need is a good class rank and good board scores and you will get in regardless of the school. 100k is a damn lot...add interest on top of that and the decision should come easy.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

Hiya Dr. Jedi's wife....I jsut got a couple more questions...

1. are there a lot of reasons why people dont match??? Is it sheer numbers? Or is it the applicants themselves? I would think that since pedo is becoming more lucrative and prestigous these days and getting much more respect, that many people are opting for it because its one of the easier specialities to get into....Thus, their intentions for going into pedo are not genuine and that just irritates me. Are adcoms picking up on this??? I hope so.

2. Since pedo is becoming more competitive these days, do you think its actually possible for adcoms to possibly ignore class standing in favour of the candidate having very very strong non-academic strengths because a dentist on DentalTown said that this was possible, but perhaps its outdated??? If so, that would be great for me, cause my resume in 3 years is going to be stacked with pedo experience, but its just my academics thats worrying me, especially after my biochemistry exam today! Ugh....

 

[Jediwendell]

Hiya Dr. Jedi's wife....I jsut got a couple more questions...

1. are there a lot of reasons why people dont match??? Is it sheer numbers? Or is it the applicants themselves? I would think that since pedo is becoming more lucrative and prestigous these days and getting much more respect, that many people are opting for it because its one of the easier specialities to get into....Thus, their intentions for going into pedo are not genuine and that just irritates me. Are adcoms picking up on this??? I hope so.

2. Since pedo is becoming more competitive these days, do you think its actually possible for adcoms to possibly ignore class standing in favour of the candidate having very very strong non-academic strengths because a dentist on DentalTown said that this was possible, but perhaps its outdated??? If so, that would be great for me, cause my resume in 3 years is going to be stacked with pedo experience, but its just my academics thats worrying me, especially after my biochemistry exam today! Ugh....

From what I understand most schools match all their spots, so I think it is becoming a sheer numbers game. More and more people apply every year, sp more people don't match. Unfortunately there are those people who are doing pedo just for the money, and sometimes they slip through the cracks. But I think a lot of times people having experience is what makes the difference. If an adcom sees two similar applicants and one has no experience they would interview the experienced guy over the non any day of the week. I can't say that they ignore class standings, but if you are a little weak experience will help. Unfortunatly there are a lot of people out there who have strong academics and a lot of experience. If you don't feel you have the grades to apply during your 4th year, you can always do a GPR (especially one strong in pedo) to help boost your credentials. Plus, you will have part II scores on you app and it is test that is easier to do well on (fopr the most part, especially if you know you need to do well). A GPR gives you OR experience, trauma experience and call experience, which adcoms love!
You have 3 years to really work on making your app the best you can.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

From what I understand most schools match all their spots, so I think it is becoming a sheer numbers game. More and more people apply every year, sp more people don't match. Unfortunately there are those people who are doing pedo just for the money, and sometimes they slip through the cracks. But I think a lot of times people having experience is what makes the difference. If an adcom sees two similar applicants and one has no experience they would interview the experienced guy over the non any day of the week. I can't say that they ignore class standings, but if you are a little weak experience will help. Unfortunatly there are a lot of people out there who have strong academics and a lot of experience. If you don't feel you have the grades to apply during your 4th year, you can always do a GPR (especially one strong in pedo) to help boost your credentials. Plus, you will have part II scores on you app and it is test that is easier to do well on (fopr the most part, especially if you know you need to do well). A GPR gives you OR experience, trauma experience and call experience, which adcoms love!
You have 3 years to really work on making your app the best you can.

Hey Emily...you are amazing! Thanks for all your help! I actually talked with a pedo faculty at my school today and they said the same thing...that I have 3 years to build up my application and Im doing great so far....as far as academics go, they said if I get mostly B's then I'll be in a good position....that was good good news for me, cause this semester hasnt been the greatest! Cheers again!

 

[dentite001]

Pedo's doing ortho? Sure, it's possible. Just as it is possible for a GP to do ortho. However, I always considered pedo helping really young children 3-5, whereas ortho is a bit older, say 10-11. There may be a gap in between those age groups where they no longer need your services and find a GP. If you can find some way to hold onto your customers for over a decade, you could hit both markets and you'd have it made.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Which programs are at the masters level??

Also, when did you do your residency and do u know that it takes to get into a residency these days? Ive heard that everyone get an interview and its really the interview that is going to be the deciding factor.

I just got a PM from an individual who said I could disseminate his stats for informational purposes.

This individual had an 89 on Part I, 3.4 GPA, class president 4 years, 3 years of research, and only had interviews at 3 or the 7 programs they applied to.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

I just got a PM from an individual who said I could disseminate his stats for informational purposes.

This individual had an 89 on Part I, 3.4 GPA, class president 4 years, 3 years of research, and only had interviews at 3 or the 7 programs they applied to.

Cheers Gavin for the info. From what Ive been learning by talking to many various people involved in pedo, I think pedo is a really different field when it comes to matching and is perhaps not as clear-cut as the other specialities. From the pedo people Ive talked to, pedo residencies really want residents who have a genuine interest in working with kids and will look at applicants who have a lot of pedo experience regardless of grades. Not that grades are not important, but Ive been told that if I get a low 3 GPA with board scores in the 80s, and keep up with my pedo involvement, than I have a great chance to match. However, that is about 3 years from now where anything can happen.

 

[Jone]

IMHO, just the opposite. due to the higher number of applicants, the fastest way to weed down a stack of several hundred applications is to throw out the low numbers first, then start reading the files that remain. keep in mind, some programs have 1 spot for every 50 applicants. you don't think they actually read all the applications do you?

the difference now, being that pedo is more compeitive, is you need BOTH good numbers, and the extracurriculars, wheras in the past, having just one of the two would suffice.

 

[ItsGavinC]

I agree with Jone's statement. Life isn't fair, and honestly, I'm sure the adcoms for these programs have *many* other things they'd rather be doing than reading files and interviewing people. At the worst many files get thrown out without being touched. At the best, they are read in depth prior to making some cuts. I think most fall in the middle: they are skimmed.

 

[kdsdds]

Thanks for all the pedo info so far. A previous post mentioned doing a GPR that was strong in pedo...can anyone list some of those programs which have a strong emphasis on pedo? Thanks!