Specializing

[bracketbuster68]

If you wanna do some Ortho, be a general dentist and go do some CE courses or workshops in ortho. I know a guy who did this with his practice and does full cases of braces.

He rakes in the dough as well. Said he closed his practice for like 30 vacation days a couple years ago.

You’d probably make more overall as a specialist in ortho, but you save on loans and don’t have to compete as hard for that 5-10% class standing.

I'd advise against this. General dentists have no idea what they're doing with ortho and their offices are not set up to be profitable like orthos are. Orthos see a ton of volume and they have lots of chairs. General dentists are better off doing other procedures and not wasting chair space and time to deliver subpar results.

Edit: also, the CE courses are not cheap. Think 5 figures.

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[omfsing]

From a resident’s POV here are my two cents:

(These are generalizations, don’t lose your **** if you knew Timmy who matched into blah with a GPA of blah blah)

Ortho: you need to be in the top 10% of your class
OMFS: gpa doesn’t matter, all they care about now is CBSE (which is a hard test)
Pedo: need to do lots of extracurriculars and show involvement
Endo: need to be in top 20% to match straight out of school, otherwise work experience will help you get in
Perio: I’ve seen people from top of their class to bottom of their class match, very program dependent

The rest of the specialties I’m not entirely sure about. Hopes this helps

Also, the only people who I’ve seen who were not able to specialize were the ones that quit trying. I had a lot of my chips down and everyone told me I wouldn’t be able to get into OMFS. A few years later I’m on my way to finishing up med school. No one cared where I went to dental school, so always pick the cheapest option and work hard from the start.

 

[DentTreadOnMe]

I'd advise against this. General dentists have no idea what they're doing with ortho and their offices are not set up to be profitable like orthos are. Orthos see a ton of volume and they have lots of chairs. General dentists are better off doing other procedures and not wasting chair space and time to deliver subpar results.

Edit: also, the CE courses are not cheap. Think 5 figures.

Lol well you can “advise against it” all you want. It’s not stopping my friend from making tens of thousands of dollars on braces and logging positive result after positive result. Obviously he has an idea what he’s doing...

 

[bracketbuster68]

Lol well you can “advise against it” all you want. It’s not stopping my friend from making tens of thousands of dollars on braces and logging positive result after positive result. Obviously he has an idea what he’s doing...

Lol? Glad a pre dent is telling everyone how running an office works. Get a clue!

 

[DentTreadOnMe]

Lol? Glad a pre dent is telling everyone how running an office works. Get a clue!

I’m not telling you... a skilled and successful general dentist with 15 years experience is demonstrating that general dentists actually CAN do ortho and be successful doing it with some additional training, but you seem to know better than he about his career... so yes lol. Because you speak without knowing...

 

[bracketbuster68]

I’m not telling you... a skilled and successful general dentist with 15 years experience is demonstrating that general dentists actually CAN do ortho and be successful doing it with some additional training, but you seem to know better than he about his career... so yes lol. Because you speak without knowing...

Yeah, you did tell everyone lol.

If you wanna do some Ortho, be a general dentist and go do some CE courses or workshops in ortho. I know a guy who did this with his practice and does full cases of braces.

He rakes in the dough as well. Said he closed his practice for like 30 vacation days a couple years ago.

You’d probably make more overall as a specialist in ortho, but you save on loans and don’t have to compete as hard for that 5-10% class standing.

I've gotten my point across. You will learn it's better to focus on what you're good at in dentistry. Might learn it as quick as making your first denture.

 

[BluntForceTrauma]

Might learn it as quick as making your first denture.

*Shudder*

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

 

[Blackca3]

But yes, yes they are enamored by ivy league pedigree. Anyone denying it is lying to themselves - the percentages of these students matching to their specialty choice is more than just hard work lol. Hard work is not the only factor, and that's not an unpopular opinion. There are opportunities to do impressive research with amazing faculty members in that field - contrast with my state school who only had one - I repeat, one - faculty researcher. There are opportunities to build very strong connections, letters, etc.

I understand both sides of the argument - and from an objective point of view l, hard work alone isn't the only factor. It doesn't add up.

Very little to no one in the real world is impressed by pedigree. If anything it can be the opposite where people are biased against you because a lot of the kids coming straight out of ivey league schools have an over inflated opinion of themselves and are entitled when they have literally accomplished nothing. All of the ivey leaque kids I worked with out of school were terminated within 6 months. Going to an ivey leaque school does not gurantee your employer a return on their investment for hiring you.

 

[Life of Pablo]

Very little to no one in the real world is impressed by pedigree. If anything it can be the opposite where people are biased against you because a lot of the kids coming straight out of ivey league schools have an over inflated opinion of themselves and are entitled when they have literally accomplished nothing. All of the ivey leaque kids I worked with out of school were terminated within 6 months. Going to an ivey leaque school does not gurantee your employer a return on their investment for hiring you.

You’re a D1 at MUSC. What do you mean all the ivy league kids were terminated within 6 months.....? Unless you’re not talking about dentistry, which in that case wouldn’t be applicable to this discussion.

 

[Blackca3]

You’re a D1 at MUSC. What do you mean all the ivy league kids were terminated within 6 months.....? Unless you’re not talking about dentistry, which in that case wouldn’t be applicable to this discussion.

I switched careers but yes it is just as applicable. People with the mindset that just attending a "named" school somehow puts you ahead of others exist in all fields. And majority of people with actual real world experience will tell you it's not true. Head over to dental town and get first hand information yourself. Sucessful people are successful wherever they go to school. They are sucessful because they make smart decisions, financially smart decisions like not over paying for something.

 

[Cthuluhoop]

What I described is not “expensive.” It is “financial suicide.”

Big Hoss

What you described is for sure financial suicide Big Hoss. But let's be honest, most dental schools at sticker price have you standing with one foot over the edge on the proverbial cliff without specializing, add an expensive residency to these schools and you've stepped off

 

[Vote For Pedro]

Very little to no one in the real world is impressed by pedigree.

People with the mindset that just attending a "named" school somehow puts you ahead of others exist in all fields. And majority of people with actual real world experience will tell you it's not true.

This is true - patients care about how good and attentive of a provider you are and not your degree. Still, I'm not sure why we're off topic - the 'people' that I'm referring to are those who have say in residency programs. The question we're asking is "does graduating at a 'big name school' give students an edge when specializing, and if it does, does it justify the cost?"
In regards to the former question, I believe it does - and I know there are people here who disagree. In regards to the second, I'm not sure - I guess it depends on the specialty and how much debt you will accrue with each specialty (e.g. tuition for ortho vs having a salary for OS).

As for your statement on "kids coming straight out of ivey league schools have an over inflated opinion of themselves", I'm sure there are many out there - but if it is an offhanded slant that you're making at your fellow students on this forum that attend ivy leagues, I'm sure they and everyone else are just trying to have a civil discussion.

 

[Blackca3]

This is true - patients care about how good and attentive of a provider you are and not your degree. Still, I'm not sure why we're off topic - the 'people' that I'm referring to are those who have say in residency programs. The question we're asking is "does graduating at a 'big name school' give students an edge when specializing, and if it does, does it justify the cost?"
In regards to the former question, I believe it does - and I know there are people here who disagree. In regards to the second, I'm not sure - I guess it depends on the specialty and how much debt you will accrue with each specialty (e.g. tuition for ortho vs having a salary for OS).

As for your statement on "kids coming straight out of ivey league schools have an over inflated opinion of themselves", I'm sure there are many out there - but if it is an offhanded slant that you're making at your fellow students on this forum that attend ivy leagues, I'm sure they and everyone else are just trying to have a civil discussion.

You're advocating that attending the named schools somehow makes you better suited for residency than someone who didn't attend named school when they have literally done nothing to set themselves aside from their peers. My response is directly on topic to that. Most everyone will graduate with the same learning curve ahead of them and residency directors are well aware of this. You're not tricking residency directors into thinking you're better just because you went to a school with a certain name. Most people who think this way are kids who have not had a chance to get out and have a job in the real world and realize how little value the name of your school or your degrees has when determining success. Go on dental town and ask first hand. Their are many experienced professionals including residency directors over there.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

It’s the same way in medicine, law, business, and graduate schools. Why would it be any different for dentistry?

In medicine, it’s all about part 1 of the USMLE. At a great school but had a bad test day? Yeah, good luck. Mediocre medical school but killed the exam? Good to go! For business and law, because there is such a low barrier to entry because of all the “for-profit” schools, it is all about where you went for school.

Big Hoss

 

[deleted678432]

In medicine, it’s all about part 1 of the USMLE. At a great school but had a bad test day? Yeah, good luck. Mediocre medical school but killed the exam? Good to go! For business and law, because there is such a low barrier to entry because of all the “for-profit” schools, it is all about where you went for school.

Big Hoss

Agreed. I have friends from my UG in business who do amazing in school but say that nobody from my university can land a firm like JP or Goldman out of college because it’s not a “name” business program. Same with my friend in law school who says that if you don’t get into a top 25 program, its best to not even go.

Medicine I think does care about name a little more, but there are still people who sneak by out of a no-name school (I have a friend at a top 1/2 program for an extremely competitive surgical residency who went to a low-tier med school that just worked his ass off).

For dentistry if you look at any residency program’s current residents online, you will see ivy league alumni obviously, but you’ll see a TON of residents (often the entirety of a resident class) who went to state schools.

 

[Blackca3]

It is not like this in business. I don't know who is telling you guys this but that's not how it works. My degree is in business adminstration and I have worked in Silicon Valley. The name of your school does not equal a return on investment for your employer. I went to the University of South Carolina. Without googling I'm betting no one can tell me the name of our business school. But all of my classmates have gone on to every big name company you can think of. Tesla, Space X, Google, Apple, Boeing, Amazon, all of the big 4 accounting firms, all the big consulting firms and many more. The name of your school does not equal dollars for your employer and that is what matters.

 

[deleted678432]

It is not like this in business. I don't know who is telling you guys this but that's not how it works. I worked in Silicon Valley. The name of your school does not equal a return on investment for your employer. I went to the University of South Carolina. Without googling I'm betting no one can tell me the name of our business school. But all of my classmates have gone on to every big name company you can think of. Tesla, Space X, Google, Apple, Boeing, Amazon, all of the big 4 accounting firms, all the big consulting firms and many more. The name of your school does not equal dollars for your employer and that is what matters.

Probably because USC is the #3 ranked UG business school in the country

 

[Blackca3]

Probably because USC is the #3 ranked UG business school in the country

Link?

 

[princeafrica]

It is not like this in business. I don't know who is telling you guys this but that's not how it works. My degree is in business adminstration and I have worked in Silicon Valley. The name of your school does not equal a return on investment for your employer. I went to the University of South Carolina. Without googling I'm betting no one can tell me the name of our business school. But all of my classmates have gone on to every big name company you can think of. Tesla, Space X, Google, Apple, Boeing, Amazon, all of the big 4 accounting firms, all the big consulting firms and many more. The name of your school does not equal dollars for your employer and that is what matters.

What made you go from working in Silicon Valley to taking on 4 more years of school and debt?

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

It is not like this in business. I don't know who is telling you guys this but that's not how it works. My degree is in business adminstration and I have worked in Silicon Valley. The name of your school does not equal a return on investment for your employer. I went to the University of South Carolina. Without googling I'm betting no one can tell me the name of our business school. But all of my classmates have gone on to every big name company you can think of. Tesla, Space X, Google, Apple, Boeing, Amazon, all of the big 4 accounting firms, all the big consulting firms and many more. The name of your school does not equal dollars for your employer and that is what matters.

I was referring to MBA programs, and yes there is a huge difference on which recruiters go to Stanford GSB vs. no-name evening option MBA program that accepts all comers.

Big Hoss

 

[Life of Pablo]

It is not like this in business. I don't know who is telling you guys this but that's not how it works. My degree is in business adminstration and I have worked in Silicon Valley. The name of your school does not equal a return on investment for your employer. I went to the University of South Carolina. Without googling I'm betting no one can tell me the name of our business school. But all of my classmates have gone on to every big name company you can think of. Tesla, Space X, Google, Apple, Boeing, Amazon, all of the big 4 accounting firms, all the big consulting firms and many more. The name of your school does not equal dollars for your employer and that is what matters.

Why are you arguing this?
The top 25 universities for getting a front-office job at J.P. Morgan

Do you see those schools? Of course there’s going to be some students from lesser known schools that are able to work at top companies, but it’s an uphill battle for them.

Anyway, let’s not derail this discussion.

 

[Blackca3]

That atmospshere is nothing like what you see on TV. Terrible hours and work life balance. Why work that hard for someone else when you can do it for yourselves? Because Dentistry has insanely high profit margins that no other industry I know of has along with the autonomy of ownership. Because I was smart with my money and set myself up financially to have passive income.

 

[deleted678432]

Link?

Idk if I’m allowed to post links in here but if you literally search “top undergraduate business schools”, you’ll find USC right under Berkley and penn. Also, it’s not a secret that USC is a very strong and world-renowned institution.

 

[Life of Pablo]

Idk if I’m allowed to post links in here but if you literally search “top undergraduate business schools”, you’ll find USC right under Berkley and penn. Also, it’s not a secret that USC is a very strong and world-renowned institution.

You’re confusing university of southern CALIFORNIA with university of south CAROLINA

 

[princeafrica]

That atmospshere is nothing like what you see on TV. Terrible hours and work life balance. Why work that hard for someone else when you can do it for yourselves? Because Dentistry has insanely high profit margins that no other industry I know of has along with the autonomy of ownership. Because I was smart with my money and set myself up financially to have passive income.

Oh nice and hopefully you wanna serve people as well.

 

[Blackca3]

Why are you arguing this?
The top 25 universities for getting a front-office job at J.P. Morgan

Do you see those schools? Of course there’s going to be some students from lesser known schools that are able to work at top companies, but it’s an uphill battle for them.

Anyway, let’s not derail this discussion.

Because I actually have experience working in recruiting and working with head hunters and also don't accept any random article I read on the internet as fact. Because I don't cherry pick outliers and say that they are conclusive proof. You could probably prove any point if that's how you wanna do it. Residency directors are very unlikely giving preference to someone because of the school they went to.

 

[princeafrica]

Because I actually have experience working in recruiting and working with head hunters and also don't accept any random article I read on the internet as fact. Because I don't cherry pick outliers and say that they are conclusive proof. You could probably prove any point if that's how you wanna do it. Residency directors are very unlikely giving preference to someone because of the school they went to.

I shadowed a dentist who was a chief resident for a Pediatric program and he did say you can specialize out of any schools but students at Ivy League in terms of getting interviews got a bit of an edge but nothing beyond that. He also mentioned that many of these Ivy League students have letters of recommendations from professors who know directors which adds an edge.

Is it worth extra debt he said no lol

He also mentioned that his residents from Columbia were very book smart but no hand skills compared to his Midwestern residents loool

 

[deleted678432]

You’re confusing university of southern CALIFORNIA with university of south CAROLINA

Lmao whoops

 

[toothsucker]

Imagine you have 2 candidates from different schools with completely identical extracurriculars, GPA, rank, research, CBSE/ADAT/GRE, etc. One candidate went to Harvard, one a lesser known state school. Although the perception may be WRONG, I think we all know who would get chosen. And I don’t think this small advantage is worth 150-200K in debt.

Conversely, it’s pretty beneficial going to a program where not many students specialize. Would you rather be competing with 20 other students applying to OMFS? Or would you rather be the only one applying out of your program? Applications from some Ivy League programs can get diluted a bit.

 

[coldicecream]

Imagine you have 2 candidates from different schools with completely identical extracurriculars, GPA, rank, research, CBSE/ADAT/GRE, etc. One candidate went to Harvard, one a lesser known state school. Although the perception may be WRONG, I think we all know who would get chosen. And I don’t think this small advantage is worth 150-200K in debt.

Conversely, it’s pretty beneficial going to a program where not many students specialize. Would you rather be competing with 20 other students applying to OMFS? Or would you rather be the only one applying out of your program? Applications from some Ivy League programs can get diluted a bit.

wait, if they have all the same stats, then wouldn't it come down to their personalities?? They do interviews don't they?

 

[Blackca3]

Imagine you have 2 candidates from different schools with completely identical extracurriculars, GPA, rank, research, CBSE/ADAT/GRE, etc. One candidate went to Harvard, one a lesser known state school. Although the perception may be WRONG, I think we all know who would get chosen. And I don’t think this small advantage is worth 150-200K in debt.

Conversely, it’s pretty beneficial going to a program where not many students specialize. Would you rather be competing with 20 other students applying to OMFS? Or would you rather be the only one applying out of your program? Applications from some Ivy League programs can get diluted a bit.

You know this how? Based on what evidence can you comfirm that the name of school gives you an edge? Please post the studies and the reviews for this. If you can provide any evidence I will most definitely change my tune and support what y'all are saying.

 

[Life of Pablo]

You know this how? Based on what evidence can you comfirm that the name of school gives you an edge? Please post the studies and the reviews for this. If you can provide any evidence I will most definitely change my tune and support what y'all are saying.

Please post evidence of what you say. I posted statistics and you just said not to believe everything on the internet. SMH

 

[bracketbuster68]

wait, if they have all the same stats, then wouldn't it come down to their personalities?? They do interviews don't they?

If you get an interview your foot is in the door. Now you just have to be someone they like and wanna be around for 2-4 years. Everyone is equal at the interview stage.

 

[toothsucker]

wait, if they have all the same stats, then wouldn't it come down to their personalities?? They do interviews don't they?

Sorry I should have specified. I meant in order to get an interview.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Man, you all are making this SO much harder than it needs to be. Just go to the cheapest school you can, work hard and check all the right boxes, and you’ll do just fine. Trust me.

Big Hoss

 

[Vote For Pedro]

Based on what evidence can you comfirm that the name of school gives you an edge? Please post the studies and the reviews for this. If you can provide any evidence I will most definitely change my tune and support what y'all are saying

When I said 22 put of 22 who applied and matched to ortho at an ivy 2 years ago, and 20 out of 22 who applied and matched a year ago compared to the school in my state that matched 0 to 1 out of 5 to 8 that applied, I guess the students and my fellow colleagues are just purposely lying and there's really no evidence. Fake news!

Correlation doesn't explain causation, but I still can't rack up enough factors that argue against these statistics.

 

[Blackca3]

Please post evidence of what you say. I posted statistics and you just said not to believe everything on the internet. SMH

I cannot prove a negative. I have prefaced all of mine that it is based on my experience and explained what my relative experience is. You made the claim. The honus is on you to provide evidence based research to support your claim. Instead you posted a random article about written about JP Morgan that seems like it was googled. That does not meet any standard of evidence and I would be willing to bet that it most certainly doesn't meet the standard of evidence for your school.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

When I said 22 put of 22 who applied and matched to ortho at an ivy 2 years ago, and 20 out of 22 who applied and matched a year ago compared to the school in my state that matched 0 to 1 out of 5 to 8 that applied, I guess the students and my fellow colleagues are just purposely lying and there's really no evidence. Fake news!

Correlation doesn't explain causation, but I still can't rack up enough factors that argue against these statistics.

I’m sure it had everything to do with the name of their school and nothing with what they did while in school. Literally, their CVs looked like this with only 3 lines and they still had program directors drooling over them:

Name: Future Doctor of Teeth
Dental School: UPenn
Undergrad: Run of the Mill State

Big Hoss

 

[Vote For Pedro]

I’m sure it had everything to do with the name of their school and nothing with what they did while in school.

Big Hoss

Surely you're not saying ivy league students work harder than students in my state school! That's blasphemy, there are hard workers everywhere!

Jokes aside, I do believe students are working hard wherever they go and not just at ivys. But don't shoot the messenger here, I'm all for hearing the factors that could explain why these statistics are skewed unproportionally

 

[princeafrica]

On a side note, Colorado Class of 2018 matched all 30 students that applied to residency.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Surely you're not saying ivy league students work harder than students in my state school! That's blasphemy, there are hard workers everywhere!

Like I’ve said already, gunners are drawn to these schools like moths to a flame.

Gunning forever. Forever gunning.

Big Hoss

 

[Vote For Pedro]

On a side note, Colorado Class of 2018 matched all 30 students that applied to residency.

I mean, that's awesome!
Do you have a breakdown of the percentage of students who applied and matched into their respective residencies? E.g. GPR, AEGD, Peds etc.

 

[princeafrica]

I mean, that's awesome!
Do you have a breakdown of the percentage of students who applied and matched into their respective residencies? E.g. GPR, AEGD, Peds etc.

The admins didn't mention specifics. But I think like 15-20 of them were GPR/AEGD and the rests were other specialities. Based on the students I met I think at least 3 were OS and 4 were ortho


CU has a full scope oral surgery clinic but doesn't have a OMFS program lol but many students opt to spend more time there

 

[predent2151]

If I was a program director I’d pick the student who chose the cheapest school because then at least I know they have some common sense.

 

[Vote For Pedro]

If I was a program director I’d pick the student who chose the cheapest school because then at least I know they have some common sense.

Good thing you're not, because half of all students in the world will be screwed
Dental school is expensive, from UoP to Western to NYU

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Good thing you're not, because half of all students in the world will be screwed
Dental school is expensive, from UoP to Western to NYU

#hpsp

Big Hoss

 

[predent2151]

Good thing you're not, because half of all students in the world will be screwed
Dental school is expensive, from UoP to Western to NYU

If people wouldn’t apply to those schools they would lower prices, instead they take advantage of 22 year olds with no real meaning of what it takes to pay back 400k. Hpsp, NHSC, Hpsc are all such great ways to escape the staggering debt and serve a population in need.

 

[Life of Pablo]

If people wouldn’t apply to those schools they would lower prices, instead they take advantage of 22 year olds with no real meaning of what it takes to pay back 400k. Hpsp, NHSC, Hpsc are all such great ways to escape the staggering debt and serve a population in need.

iF pEOplE DidNT aPpLy tO tHOse sChOoLs tHEy wOuLd lOWer pRiCEs.

How about if nobody applied to any dental school so all dental schools would lower their price??? See how ridiculous that sounds?

 

[Vote For Pedro]

Yikes.

Should've went to vet school.

Oh wait, they're even more expensive. Nvm

 

[predent2151]

iF pEOplE DidNT aPpLy tO tHOse sChOoLs tHEy wOuLd lOWer pRiCEs.

How about if nobody applied to any dental school so all dental schools would lower their price??? See how ridiculous that sounds?[/QUOTE/]

Lol. It’s rediculous to say that you shouldn’t apply to schools that charge outrageous tuition? You honestly think if people stopped applying to NYU because it costs 550k that they wouldn’t lower their costs? It’s the law of demand. Price increases demand decreases. Dental school is no different it’s just less elastic because it feeds off of the ignorance of 22 year olds. I guarantee you that anyone who’s paid that off or is working to pay that off would agree with me. Not all schools charge stupid amounts. But if you’re going to pay 500k for school when you have an offer from a school that costs 350k then you sir, are not behaving as a rational consumer.