You can specialize from any school if you put in the work. Just for those who keep asking
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Specializing
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You can go to dental school from any undergraduate college if you put the work in
I don't think anybody's confused about whether one "can" specialize. What they want to know is how much "easier" and what cost does that justify.
imo it’s not “much easier” anywhere. Schools that show high specialization rates have a lot of students already that wanna specialize
Don’t kid yourself. Let’s not act like being top 10-20% in your class is a cakewalk and something anyone can do. It’s not. Are you going to be that 10-20%? Hopefully, but odds are against you, like 80% against you.
Also, let’s not act like Ivy league schools are the only ones where a large proportion of the class wants to specialize. State schools are the same way, but the difference is after the first semester (maybe even after the first exam) reality hits that they can’t cut it.
In theory, “anyone” could specialize from any school, but that “anyone” is only 20% of your class. Again, a lot of the people saying anyone can specialize are the ones who made it. They aren’t the majority. You don’t hear about all the people who worked as hard as they could and still couldn’t get their class ranking high enough.
With that being said, if you do decide to go to a more expensive school in order to specialize, you better make sure you’re 100% set on it because paying all that extra money to get the same degree isn’t worth it.
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@Life of Pablo When do you find out your rank?
There are plenty of people who attend the Ivies and still cannot specialize. You know what they get as a reward? Worse hand skills and 200K more debt.
We’re not ranked.
That’s few and far between. If that happens, it’s because either a) the person realized they wanted to specialize late in dental school and wasn’t able to put together a competitive application or b) they didn’t want to specialize.
The difference between Ivy league schools and other schools is NOT 200k. For some schools it is but for a majority the difference isn’t that high. Show me which state schools cost 270k including cost of living. Penn also offers a lot of scholarships.
What makes it so reality never hits students at the Ivy League dental schools?
Big Hoss
So what about the dentistry taught at Harvard, Columbia, and UPenn makes it easier to specialize down the road? Are you learning some secrets the masses aren’t privy to? Are program directors simply so enamored by your academic “pedigree” they look past any flaws? What is it? The ability to hide behind P/F grades?
I’ll let you in on a little secret: It all boils down to the simple fact that gunners are drawn to these schools like moths to a flame. Gunners are the ones gunning for specialization from Day 1. That’s why they are called gunners. Makes sense. More than a quarter of Columbia’s class applies to OMFS. I assure you nowhere near that many were interested in OMFS in my class, even if they had the stats to get in. The top two people in my class didn’t even go on to residency.
While serving in the military I’ve worked with graduates from schools around the country. My closest colleagues and friends have graduated from Indiana, UCLA, UCSF, Ohio State, UNLV, Columbia, UPenn, Detroit, ASDOH, and UoP. Do I think the school they went to reflects the quality of dentist they are? Absolutely not! What does is their work ethic and how seriously they take this job.
Big Hoss
Soooo anyone can specialize from anywhere as long as they work hard ♂️
It’s all about increasing your chances to match. Program directors are more familiar with the quality of student that comes out of schools like Harvard, UCLA, Penn, Columbia etc. How do you think these schools are able to get away with P/F rankings?
A lot of the faculty that write your letters of recommendation are at the top of their field (think people who write textbooks) and have friends in programs across the country. A good letter of recommendation can go a long way when applying for residency. All these little things add up and make it easier to specialize. Obviously I’m not saying it’s impossible to match from other schools, it’s just harder. I realize this is the unpopular opinion and may be a biased one, but I think it’s something to think about.
Here is where you’re wrong. You have the definition of gunner wrong, at least in my eyes. To me, a gunner is someone that will do whatever it takes to succeed even if it’s at the expense of those around them. That atmosphere is cultivated in schools with ranking systems. At Penn, Harvard, and Columbia, I guarantee you’d be amazed how collaborative and chill everyone is. People are super helpful and open to sharing anything. Literally classes pass down study guides, notes, etc to each other. That does not happen at schools with rankings, at least not on an entire class basis. You might share a few things with some friends, but that’s about it.
Although I do see where you're coming from, I believe there are other factors that also contribute to a higher specialty rate at the ivys UCLA, etc.
Like you said, there are smart and hardworking students wherever you go, and it will be difficult penetrating top 10%. It is almost a requirement (almost..) to be top 10 at your state school to have a good shot at a specialty. That point is arguable, but I still believe the ride is smoother for students at the ivys that don't make top 10. The sheer number of students who match, (and I'm talking about those who apply and get accepted) is in the 90% and higher at these schools. It's not just that there are a class full of 'gunners', they are all matching, regardless of being in top ten or not. This is a huge contrast to my state school, matching around 0 to 20%. This boils down to 0 or 1 student matching to OS or ortho every year.
There are no secrets - like you stated, there are smart and harding working students everywhere, and arguably better dentists too.
But yes, yes they are enamored by ivy league pedigree. Anyone denying it is lying to themselves - the percentages of these students matching to their specialty choice is more than just hard work lol. Hard work is not the only factor, and that's not an unpopular opinion. There are opportunities to do impressive research with amazing faculty members in that field - contrast with my state school who only had one - I repeat, one - faculty researcher. There are opportunities to build very strong connections, letters, etc.
I understand both sides of the argument - and from an objective point of view l, hard work alone isn't the only factor. It doesn't add up.
@Big Time Hoosier I’ve see you mention this before but what exactly is wrong with hiding behind a pass/fail system?
Yeah
There’s nothing wrong with it. Most medical schools are P/F. Having a ranking system does ZERO good for students. In fact, it makes things way more stressful. The only good it does is for program directors.
Honestly they should abolish rankings completely. If most people end up doing general dentistry, why even have rankings? If you want to specialize, it should be dependent on how you do on an entrance exam (CBSE, ADAT etc). That’s pretty much how it’s done in medicine.
I agree
“The difference between Ivy league schools and other schools is NOT 200k. For some schools it is but for a majority the difference isn’t that high.”
Texas schools are in a class of their own.
All three of my state schools are below 270K! I know there are other schools this cheap too.
I feel like there are A LOT of misconceptions here on SDN. Please allow me to clarify them for you. Firstly, there are other specialties out there apart from oral surgery and orthodontics. Secondly, I think you all are markedly overestimating how hard it is to specialize. Easy? No, but much easier than many make it out to be. You will need to put in the work regardless of the name of your school. Thirdly, attending a school that is graded and ranks its students is not like surviving The Hunger Games. Lastly, paying back student loans is the absolute opposite of fun. It is. It absolutely is.
So...go the cheapest school you get into!
Big Hoss
So...go the cheapest school you get into!
Big Hoss
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deleted678432
Care to elaborate big hoss?
I have some friends that got into endo straight out of school and it’s doubtful they were even in the top 3rd of the class. They knew they didn’t have awesome grades so they tried to make up for it elsewhere in their application. Another guy in my class was solidly in the bottom half of the class and he Matched at a decent peds program. Unlike what someone said above, you absolutely don’t need to be in the top 10% of your class to specialize. Will it help? Sure. Necessary? Heck no. From everything I’ve seen and experienced, if you’re in the top quarter of the class you’re solidly in the running.
Here’s a tip: Your best shot as specializing is at your own school. You have years to build relationships and develop a reputation, rather than trying to make magic happen during a 30 minute residency interview elsewhere. Take advantage of this! Having faculty in the department that really like you is invaluable come application time.
Big Hoss
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deleted678432
You’re the man
You are right, and I realize I wasnt specific in my post - the stats I was referring to was specifically for ortho specialty in this case.
The 90% match rate was in reference to ortho programs at an ivy league. From an upperclassman, the statistics were the previous year, 20 out of 22 who applied matched into ortho residencies. The year before that, there was a 100% match with all 22 students matching into ortho. This was in contrast to my state school, which matches none or one every year out of 5 to 8 people who apply.
If you know someone from your program from your year or previous years that was in the bottom half of the class like you speak of, and matched into an ortho residency, then yes prove me wrong and I'll happily admit I am wrong. But the percentage I see from students who are interested in ortho APPLY and match at ivys vs the percentages of students that are interested in ortho, apply and match at my state are drastically different. And I haven't heard a convincing argument that explains that discrepancy.
And I dont disagree about loans - they suck, period. It comes back to bite you 15 years from now. Still, it's justifiable for those who want every opportunity they can get to match into their specialty of choice.
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deleted678432
I’m just a measly incoming D1, but this statistic seems inaccurate or skewed. It just doesn’t sound realistic that ANY dental school sends 8 people to apply to ortho with 0-1 matching. Unless every applicant is bottom 50% of the class.
The 2nd part is so true. If you can buddy up with your faculty, man does it make life easier. Some might even help you with connections at other schools
Yes, more ortho obsession I see. Are all these Ivy League ortho gunners trying to give Mike Meru a run for his money? They’re wasting their time, because he doesn’t have any money. I kid...but, seriously.
Mike Meru Has $1 Million in Student Loans. How Did That Happen?
Let’s say you go to UPenn for dental school and ortho residency. I just added up their advertised cost of attendance. It’s around $740,000. That’s without factoring in annual tuition increases and acrued interest, both of which will easily tack on another $100,000+. Just for a minute here imagine owing almost $1 MILLION in student loans at near a 7% interest rate before you even see your first patient in private practice. Still feel good about your school choice?
Big Hoss
Why does it seem like everyone on SDN wants to specialize?
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deleted678432
The same reason SDN’s DAT average is a 23. Because everybody here is an over achiever
I'm just stating the statistics I know.
Surprisingly true. I'm not pulling random numbers put of thin air to try and prove a point. These were the stats from a student that goes there.
I agree. Ortho residency, regardless where you go, will be expensive.
Hahaha love this. But really though. Everyone is obsessed with specializing on these forums.
Just like all of the kids interviewing who only ask questions about specializing and are obsessed with implants.
I mean, yeah, implants are cool, but why is everyone so incredibly bent on it in UG d-school? You think because you placed one you'll be going at it from day 1 once you graduate? Ha
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I really don't think it's as cut and dry as everyone thinks - there's a variety of factors affecting match statistics. The tendency for the Ivies/UCLA/UConn/etc to attract gunners/people who know they want to specialize in the first place makes it a self fulfilling prophecy. Is there some additional value in attending these schools to boost your chances at residency? Probably, but is it worth taking on $100k-$200k+ more debt? Not particularly in my opinion.
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deleted678432
Cause you can do 4 implants in an hour with a $9000 bill.
But you can do all on fours as a GP with the right training and confidence.
Seriously. This sounds really whiny but the day before my DAT I was panicking about possibly getting a 22.
As far as the money in specializing that can change at any time. You are more at the mercy of insurance as an OS than you’d like to be and reimbursements for shucking 3rds prophylactially could drop overnight. Would you want to do a residency if you made the same as a GP?
I never understood that. Why people automatically equate specializing with more money. You would think that future doctors would have a little bit more intelligence than googling salaries and saying “omg an oral surgeon can make more money I’m gonna be that when I grow up.” Students fail to realize that in the 4-6 years you spend as an OMFS resident you work, what 70-100 hours per week? Say you did an AEGD then in that 3-5 remaining years you purchased a practice did quality CE and focused on your practice as a business you would bring home rediculous amounts of cash if you worked 70-100 hours. It would be very feasible to make a half a million dollars. Think of the compound interest on that money. I don’t understand why people think oral surgery, ortho, whatever=specialty=cash. Work as hard being a GP as you would being a resident and retire early. That’s my take. But then you can’t tell the ladies you’re a surgeon, I guess that’s the trade off.
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deleted678432
Hell yeah! I really like the scope of OMFS. At my clinic I’ve seen some things that make my jaw drop (pun), and really find interest in a lot of the OR cases. I think it’s a really rewarding speciality.
for those of you that want to specialize, how do you feel about having to do 2+ more years after dental school? Personally, I'd like to specialize but don't know if I want to be in school any longer lol
Oh, I know, but it's still so funny to me that that is the main thing so many pre-dents latch onto.
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I think those of you who are thinking about doing every procedure under the sun will think about what “overhead” is before bashing specialties.
Specialists make more money because of less overhead and focusing on certain cash cow procedures and being billed differently from insurance. In addition there are far less specialists than GPs.
The argument isn’t about not specializing the argument is about whether paying more for what is virtually nothing is worth it. Stony brook, a state school, matched 5/5 into some pretty badass ortho programs this year but costs 150k less than an IVY. In fact UCLA, a state school is a phenom for ortho and OS.
The success of getting into a residency from a state school paves the way for future students at your school into getting into similar programs. Be a pioneer, be the first to match in a program, it’s worth it.
Specialists make more money because of less overhead and focusing on certain cash cow procedures and being billed differently from insurance. In addition there are far less specialists than GPs.
The argument isn’t about not specializing the argument is about whether paying more for what is virtually nothing is worth it. Stony brook, a state school, matched 5/5 into some pretty badass ortho programs this year but costs 150k less than an IVY. In fact UCLA, a state school is a phenom for ortho and OS.
The success of getting into a residency from a state school paves the way for future students at your school into getting into similar programs. Be a pioneer, be the first to match in a program, it’s worth it.
Exactly. That’s my point. If a school produces more specialists, program directors will be more familiar with the type of student coming out of that school. If they’ve had good experience, they’re more likely to accept future students from that school. It’s not a coincidence you’ll see a lot of residents coming from the same school.
It’s the same way in medicine, law, business, and graduate schools. Why would it be any different for dentistry?
If you wanna do some Ortho, be a general dentist and go do some CE courses or workshops in ortho. I know a guy who did this with his practice and does full cases of braces.
He rakes in the dough as well. Said he closed his practice for like 30 vacation days a couple years ago.
You’d probably make more overall as a specialist in ortho, but you save on loans and don’t have to compete as hard for that 5-10% class standing.
He rakes in the dough as well. Said he closed his practice for like 30 vacation days a couple years ago.
You’d probably make more overall as a specialist in ortho, but you save on loans and don’t have to compete as hard for that 5-10% class standing.
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deleted678432
How sufficient are CEs though. All I hear about them is specialists pissed that they spend 2-6 years learning to do something but someone else can spend a weekend in Hawaii looking at a cliff note braces PowerPoint and is now an “expert”.
Depends on what the CE course is in. I went to a 2 hour presentation from an oral surgeon about nerve damage from all the botched implants that he had to fix due to general dentists doing stuff way over their heads.
I don’t think you can do complex cases, but I think simpler cases (whatever that means) he could handle and made good money doing it. But you can certainly do “some” ortho.
Also, the market popularity of products like “Invisalign” is growing. I think general dentists need to administer and oversee those.
